Smart Move: Keep or Say Goodbye to Marcus?

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
No, Romeo has been touted as replacing Marcus. There is much talk of relief to be able to get rid of TT.
Casual hoops people hate bigs. They is a tendency for high school level players, etc, to think all that kept them out of the next level was their size. Also people wish cast about prospects. A guy like Romeo fits that. He has not played enough to prove he anything, so all kinds of potential can be reflected on him. If he doesn't pan out they know they have the injury exzcuse. It is lazy, pointless, safe posting.

It's nothing against Romeo, either, as I said I have talked to G-league guy who said if one of him and Nesmith end up top 7 players that is above average results. I was mostly hoping for Clarke not Grant.
You will probably catch some ahit for this post, but not from me. What I will say is that you're misreading the room a bit with TT.

I don't think that it's a bias against bigs (for their height or anything else). It's a bias against jack of all trades bigs that don't have an elite feature. Frankly I think that Theis was underrated a bit around here too. Reliable rebounding bigs that can get some garbage points, set screens, and bother penetrators a bit have value. The problem is that when they need to be able to do other shit in this day and age. For examples: elite rim protection, ability to stretch the floor with the 3 ball, elite rim running, or switchability across a few positions at least. Like Theis, TT doesn't really do any of these things, and it really makes him pretty fungible in 2021. Sure TL can't stay on the floor, but when he's out there, he's an elite rim runner, rim protector, and isn't a mess when getting switched onto most guys. That's why people think of him as less fungible, and they're right. It's not easy to find guys who do what he does. It is pretty easy to find guys who do what TT does. He's like a 7th inning reliever. He might be a fantastic 7th inning reliever, but you don't pay much for those guys, even the good ones.

My 2 cents anyway.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
My 2 cents is you don't understand the market. I am not sure there are any 3 point shooting, shot blocking, scoring, passing forwards available for 9 million, especially in December.

I list the guys below available at that price. Really only Ibaka and Portis were 3 point shooters, and they signed very early.

the Celtics thought they were close to title run this year. They did not want to sign a forward to takes lost of shots away from their younh stars. They also thought Theis was their guy. Thompson played more than they intended., His signing always seemed like, this is who we could get, at that money. The C's were coming off a run almost to the finals, where Theis was pushed around a bit. Seems Brad liked that 3rd forward spot (after Theis and TL) to be a bruiser. My take is he thought Theis was ready to blossom as a stretch big.

I liked Ibaka (can shoot and does the big guy stuff okay) a lot, and Plumlee (younger version of TT, hardworker better athlete, great finisher)

But in that price range the guys are not great.
The Celtics, also were not a desirable place to sign for big guys. The job was basically Kanter's replacement, and the Cs were almost in the finals not playing Kanter at all. They also had a young 1st round pick, TL that would scare some guys, who do not want to sign, and lose their job. Theis had also played well in the bubble, and was seen as a Brad favourite.

Here are guys who are arguably better players who signed last year in the same price range. Keep in mind all of these guys, except Plumlee, signed before the Hayward trade for Myles Turner fell through.

Derrick Favors signed for 3 years.
Robin Lopez blocks more shots, but has a questionable rep for work ethic, and certainly not the switching defender, probably less happy about possibility of losing job to TL than TT.
I like Ibaka a lot, but there were health concerns, and I think the Cs did try to get him, even preferring him, he wasn't healthy in 20-21
Marc Gasol wanted to go to LA, as did Howard
Bobby Portis was another name I heard the Cs wanted, but went to the Bucks. This looks like the biggest miss in retrospect. Also fat chance he sign son to be Tatum's caddy.
Mason Plumlee signed for 3 years
Meyers Leonard was available at that price

So basically this is who you get at this price.

So my defence of TT is the following:
1. He played hard, on a team that often did not play hard, (to be honest my concern for the Cs future is our two Jays are part of the lack of effort at times)
2. He is not nearly as bad on D as people state. When D breaks down the big is left holding the bag, and countless times TT was left in a bad spot by even Saints Romeo, Tatum, and Brown, but usually PP, Nesmith, Semi, Grant.
3. he took care of business on the boards at both ends. Now Tatum was the designated "I get all uncontested D boards to get my stats" guy or TT's rebound stats are off the charts
4. When TL was playing well, and healthy, TT was an excellent compliment.
5. Once he was healthy he played well
6. The "he destroys the offence by not passing" is bullshit First he makes half his shots, much better efficiency than Smart, he took a grand total of 1 more shots/game than Grant.(as we shall see most of those shots he got for himself) Fournier and Nesmith took more shots between them than TT, at much worse efficiency. He had more than half as many offensive rebounds rebounds as shots. So probably less than half his shots are balls passed to him where he "destroyed the offence." Roughly once every 9 minutes did he shoot the ball off a pass. Quite the black whole.
7. The wing play after the starters was really bad. That was the problem.
8. That better players did not sign here was not his fault.
 
Last edited:

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
Just to put the dates together. Basically Tristan Thompson was what was left after Danny pursues the Hayward trade. Fair to say this delay, probably cost the Celtics from being contenders this year.

Nov 22 Robin Lopez signs with Wiz, Meyers Leonard signs with Thunder

Nov 24 Favors signs with Jazz, Portis signs with Bucks, Gasol signs with Lakers

Nov 25 Ibaka signs with Clipper

Nov 29 Hayward traded

Nov 30 Tristan Thompson, Jeff Teague Signs with Celtics

December 1 Plumlee signs with Pistons, three year deal
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
I think there are 4 topics that always get conflated when talking about Tristan Thompson:

1.) Is Tristan Thompson a MLE player? Absolutely. It's just the nature of the free agent market in the NBA. Guys in the NBA get far more overpaid than TT.

2.) Was Thompson a good fit on the Celtics roster last season? The answer is no, but there were a lot of other problems with the roster as well. I am making the assumption that a lot of the "bad locker room" and "constant partying" rumors are total bunk planted by a disgruntled employee buried deep in the Celtics org chart.

3.) Should Danny have looked elsewhere? As noted, the options were limited. Wyc gave a clear direction to remain under the luxury tax line (a key point that gets overlooked by some). Better options were gone by the time the dust settled from the Hayward situation. And I'm not sure how much it would have helped. Kemba being severely limited all season was a far bigger problem that was not solvable this past offseason.

4.) Is there a role for Tristan Thompson on a NBA team? Undoubtedly yes. There are far worse players on the rosters of the 3 teams competing right now. But I think it's obvious that his game is limited at this point in his career, and so should be considered very much a fungible player.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,296
Just to put the dates together. Basically Tristan Thompson was what was left after Danny pursues the Hayward trade. Fair to say this delay, probably cost the Celtics from being contenders this year.
In retrospect, would he have been better off making the trade that was reportedly on the table? Would two years of Turner and an expiring McDermott trump a year of Thompson and an expiring Fournier?
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
Fwiw, reg, most of the other guys on your list there are worse than Tristan. Who the fuck wants Leonard, even before we knew about the other shit. Portis is as nutty as squirrel poo, despite looking good for this series.

My point is that special bigs get paid a bit and typical bigs don't. Thompson is great at a job that isn't as vital as it once was. He did his job well, and I share a bit of confusion as to why folks are warming up the bus out of town. However, if we can trade him for a piece that we need more, I'm driving the bus. Because approximating what he does with someone else just isn't that hard. It'll be a guy who doesn't do it as well, but that's less important than some of the other holes that we have.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
5,867
To be clear, there were a lot of problems with last year's team. Nobody I see is saying TT is the only one, or the source of them all. Kemba, for one, was a way bigger problem for this team than TT. The team offense was miserable. The defense actually wasn't so bad.

My problem with TT is that we already had an equally useful big in Theis. With Horford coming in and rights to Kornet, he's even more fungible. Theis was more switchable, a better shot-blocker, rim runner, and offered three point shooting. Theis may not be the rebounder Thompson is, but it's really the least important skill that a big can bring to the table. A lot of people thought we should have used the MLE on a wing instead, considering our depth was Semi Ojeleye and an out-of-position Grant Williams. I would have been fine with Grant playing 3rd big minutes so they could go small occasionally, if we'd also found someone to take Semi's minutes.
 

PrestonBroadus Lives

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 21, 2007
280
Just to put the dates together. Basically Tristan Thompson was what was left after Danny pursues the Hayward trade. Fair to say this delay, probably cost the Celtics from being contenders this year.

Nov 22 Robin Lopez signs with Wiz, Meyers Leonard signs with Thunder

Nov 24 Favors signs with Jazz, Portis signs with Bucks, Gasol signs with Lakers

Nov 25 Ibaka signs with Clipper

Nov 29 Hayward traded

Nov 30 Tristan Thompson, Jeff Teague Signs with Celtics

December 1 Plumlee signs with Pistons, three year deal
The bolded isn't really true though, because the dates that these guys actually signed their contracts aren't all that relevant. The reports for Thompson were that he had agreed to terms with the Celtics by November 21st, same day Ibaka and Portis agreed to their deals.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
If Ainge put that MLE money in Crowder, and signed a competent backup center with the Teague money, the Celtics might still be playing right now.

I like how Thompson battles, but with AL and TL in front of him, unless he is willing to be a good soldier as the third big, and miss a lot of games in a contract year, he has to go. Without a great PG, and with this Jays emphasis offense, the center needs to be able to conduct offense from the high post. AL and TL are great at it. TT isn’t
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
If Ainge put that MLE money in Crowder, and signed a competent backup center with the Teague money, the Celtics might still be playing right now.

I like how Thompson battles, but with AL and TL in front of him, unless he is willing to be a good soldier as the third big, and miss a lot of games in a contract year, he has to go. Without a great PG, and with this Jays emphasis offense, the center needs to be able to conduct offense from the high post. AL and TL are great at it. TT isn’t
It wasn’t only the money for Crowder in that it would have had to be at least a 3-year/$30m offer just to match Phoenix. None of the bigs available were materially better than Tristan. We got smoked by the Nets......a couple changes in our role players wasn’t going to change that.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
It wasn’t only the money for Crowder in that it would have had to be at least a 3-year/$30m offer just to match Phoenix. None of the bigs available were materially better than Tristan. We got smoked by the Nets......a couple changes in our role players wasn’t going to change that.
A better record avoids the Nets, who had been load managing their stars, who then predictably got injured as they went deeper into the playoffs. Not having a competent veteran third wing was more of a problem than if not having e a competent third big.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
A better record avoids the Nets, who had been load managing their stars, who then predictably got injured as they went deeper into the playoffs. Not having a competent veteran third wing was more of a problem than if not having e a competent third big.
Now you’re really stretching this scenario in how swapping role players adds wins to our record. If we had a worse record we could have won the play-in game and avoided the Nets too.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
No, Romeo has been touted as replacing Marcus. There is much talk of relief to be able to get rid of TT.
So, I think the idea of Romeo "replacing" Smart is laughable. Smart to me is a unique guy with unqiue strengths. When the Celtics move on from him (which I hope does not happen anytime soon) they will be moving on to a different kind of player. If Romeo pans out and ends up in the mix for All-Defense teams (and, no, I am not predicting that he will), he still won't be Marcus.

As for TT, I think he just suffers from being a solid workmanlike big who shares the position with Robert Williams, a young guy who has elite athleticism and who flashes a range of elite skills (shotblocking, offensive rebounding, rim-running, passing). Williams had a whole highlight reel of dunks, and for me the most impressive plays he makes are not so much his dunks but those plays when a teammate throws him a terrible lob and he somehow manages to corral it and lay it in anyway. And there really aren't too many bigs who flash Williams' skills as a passer. TT does some things better than the inconsistent Williams, but Williams looks like someone who can be much better... if he stays healthy and develops.

TT is fine - once he got going he was valuable for the Celtics - but if they are healthy there aren't many Celtics fan who would rather see him on the floor than Williams or Horford. And Thompson's futile attempts to post-up can be as infuriating to watch as Smart's heat takes. And is TT going to be in any way hapy as a 3rd string C? I doubt it.
They is a tendency for high school level players, etc, to think all that kept them out of the next level was their size. Also people wish cast about prospects. A guy like Romeo fits that. He has not played enough to prove he anything, so all kinds of potential can be reflected on him. If he doesn't pan out they know they have the injury exzcuse. It is lazy, pointless, safe posting.

It's nothing against Romeo, either, as I said I have talked to G-league guy who said if one of him and Nesmith end up top 7 players that is above average results. I was mostly hoping for Clarke not Grant.
I'd be less optimistic about Romeo (and I am very optimistic about him) but for 3 things:
1. It wasn't just injuries. It was one major injury (requiring thumb surgery) and the Covid mess. If he had the same first 2 years absent Covid, I'd be a lot lower on him.
2. He's done very little with the playing time he has had, but to some extent that reflects what the team asked of him. If he'd come out of college with the reputation of being a shooter, I'd be a lot lower on him now. He came up with the reputation of being a ballhandling scorer, and he hasn't been asked to do that on the Celtics, for obvious reasons. As a draftee, his shot was described as a work in progress.
3. Despite his limited time has flashed some defensive ability, has good physical characteristics for wing defense, and played the best basketball of his limited pro career in the Brooklyn series.

For these reasons I think he grades out as a promising incomplete for now. I'll start marking him downward if he shows up next year as essentially the same guy as the 50 regular season games would suggest as opposed to the guy who flashed in the playoffs and then put in some offseason work and bettered himself.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,482
1. It wasn't just injuries. It was one major injury (requiring thumb surgery) and the Covid mess. If he had the same first 2 years absent Covid, I'd be a lot lower on him.
Well it was more than just a thumb injury. The thumb injury we knew about and was baked into him falling to us (and cost him pre-season and summer league time) but then there was a sprained ankle, a groin injury, an illness, and then the wrist injury and finally another groin injury which ended his rookie season. Here's a story about it: https://www.telegram.com/story/sports/2020/09/19/celtics-notes-injuries-have-derailed-romeo-langfords-rookie-season/42666333/

Then it was recovery from the wrist leading to COVID but then he got through the season healthy.

So I'm not confident that he can stay healthy but I'm pretty confident if he can, he'll be a NBA rotation player.