So can SoSH talk about Deflategate again?

Harry Hooper

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Which, of course, is absurd given that Spygate was a violation regarding the location of the cameraman, not that filming was per se a rules violation. But that basic fucking distinction was completely ignored by the NFL and media once things spiraled out of control because they worried they'd look weak and foolish if they admitted that maybe they overreacted.

Goodell could have very easily achieved his objective and also extinguished the lingering stink of the incident if they had quickly, and assertively, clarified that the penalty was stiff *not* because of any competitive advantage the filming may have given the Patriots, but because it was sending a message that repeat rule breakers, regardless of the underlying offense, would be dealt with harshly. Instead they kind of ducked and smirked and then had that stupid press conference where they played the tapes and then destroyed the, which again reinforced the idea that the issue was the tapes themselves and not the violation of the rule regarding location of filming.
To the best of my memory, this is a brief recap of events: there's Spygate 1 (w/Jets), Spygate 2 (w/star witness Matt Walsh), and Spygate 3 (the Bengals bungle).

Spygate 1: Goodell issues the severe penalty as the big, bad sheriff, All "ill-gotten" materials on signals kept by the Patriots destroyed. Hue and cry ensues around NFL that the destruction was done to cover up the full extent of the Patriots perfidity. Someone in NFL HQ leaks some very limited footage to Jay Glazer at Fox which is shown on tv. I am not 100% certain, but I believe this Glazer footage includes Herm Edwards coaching the Jets and waving to the "spy" camera.

Spygate 2: Rumors and "journalism" of Pats taping the Rams SB walkthrough, Sen. Specter leaning on the NFL, and the emergence of Matt Walsh and non-destroyed tapes. After special immunity granted, Walsh turns over tapes and meets with NFL. Walsh tells the world that the SB walkthrough taping did not occur, and his tapes really add nothing beyond Spygate 1. Totally ignored in this process is that star witness Walsh confirms BB's statements that the Patriots never used the Spygate tapes during the same game the tapes were made. The Commish holds a press conference and announces there's no new news, but in a nod to transparency and the criticism arising from Spygate 1 he does let the Walsh tapes play on the monitors behind him at his press conference.

Spygate 3: Kraft Sports & Entertainment shoots the Patriots in the foot. NFL takes away 2020 third round draft pick.
 
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BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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The Tomase pre-Super Bowl story was a crippler in all this. Yeah he's apologized blah blah blah but holy moly the damage that story did was incalculable. Because it TOTALLY led to the entire "The Pats taped the walkthrough before the SUPER BOWL!" belief, which made ALL if it seem WAY more nefarious. Because before that, you could just say ok the Pats taped opposing sidelines and that's helped them be good but still, they won their Super Bowls before all this. After the Tomase story, it called into question ALL of the Pats' previous success.
 

Mr Mulliner

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Jan 16, 2001
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The one thing I believe might have happened is that in the Jets game the refs pumped the balls up to about 16 PSI and Brady was pissed so the guys took some air out as the game went on. I do think that's a reasonable guess. "Those fuckin' things were like rocks" was the text I remember.
I've always thought that the likeliest explanation for everything is that Brady got way up the asses of those guys after the Jets game and the over-inflated balls and told them to make sure they were always at the 12.5 before each game. it explains the texts between the guys, how they were a little miffed at him, etc..

So before each game the guys set the balls at 12.5 psi, send them to the refs for inspection, get them back and then do a quick check to make sure they're still at 12.5. No trying to make the balls illegal, just make sure that they weren't pumped up. Pretty easy to check the balls in 90 seconds if you just pop a gauge in each one for a second to ensure they are where they're supposed to be. But also - technically against the rules. So, after the fact, Brady, et al, therefore couldn't admit they were doing that, they could just say that they never intended or tried to play with balls that were underinflated.

It would be interesting to see, assuming the above is true, what would have happened if Brady just came out and said this from the beginning - explain how the refs have overinflated the Patriots game balls in the past during their inspection, so they check them to make sure they're still legal and where they want them. My guess is the penalty would have been about the same...? But maybe it would have blown over quickly.
 

Nator

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The Tomase pre-Super Bowl story was a crippler in all this. Yeah he's apologized blah blah blah but holy moly the damage that story did was incalculable. Because it TOTALLY led to the entire "The Pats taped the walkthrough before the SUPER BOWL!" belief, which made ALL if it seem WAY more nefarious. Because before that, you could just say ok the Pats taped opposing sidelines and that's helped them be good but still, they won their Super Bowls before all this. After the Tomase story, it called into question ALL of the Pats' previous success.
And then ESPN apologized for it. Once. During a 12:20am EST airing of Sportscenter.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/20/espn-issues-late-night-apology-to-patriots/
ESPN has finally said “we’re sorry” to the Patriots. But not for the report that turned a curiosity into #DeflateGate!

Instead, ESPN has apologized for repeating as fact a Boston Herald report regarding alleged cheating prior to Super Bowl XXXVI, even though the Herald report that the Patriots videotaped the Rams’ final walk-through practice before the game was prominently retracted years ago.

“On two occasions in recent weeks, SportsCenter incorrectly cited a 2002 report regarding the New England Patriots and Super Bowl XXXVI,” anchor Steve Levy said at 12:20 a.m. ET Thursday, in a one-time-only on-air declaration of regret. “That story was found to be false, and should not have been part of our reporting. We apologize to the Patriots organization.”

The correction, which technically needs to be corrected again because it was a 2008 report not 2002, hasn’t been repeated on the endless Thursday morning SportsCenter loop, which makes it the equivalent of the tiny little correction buried in an obscure location of a newspaper.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It would be interesting to see, assuming the above is true, what would have happened if Brady just came out and said this from the beginning - explain how the refs have overinflated the Patriots game balls in the past during their inspection, so they check them to make sure they're still legal and where they want them. My guess is the penalty would have been about the same...? But maybe it would have blown over quickly.
He wouldn't have done that even if that were the case because that would have been throwing the two guys under the bus. Apparently at one point the NFL asked him to say that the two jabronis did the deflation on their own and Brady wouldn't do it.
 

nighthob

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Well, not if they were doing it per his orders.
Except that the balls were precisely as pressurized as they should have been given the weather conditions. The NFL asked Brady to lie and throw the employees under the bus, almost certainly so that they could take the statement to the two lunkheads and offer them the chance to return the favor. And, of course, since everyone would have been pleading out the NFL would have been free to begin chopping heads without any of those pesky science questions.
 

Mr Mulliner

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Except that the balls were precisely as pressurized as they should have been given the weather conditions. The NFL asked Brady to lie and throw the employees under the bus, almost certainly so that they could take the statement to the two lunkheads and offer them the chance to return the favor. And, of course, since everyone would have been pleading out the NFL would have been free to begin chopping heads without any of those pesky science questions.
Yeah - did you not read what I wrote? I was suggesting that Brady told them to make sure the balls were at 12.5psi at every game after the overinflation at the Jets game. Given that we know the refs didn't inflate them before the Indy game, dumbass number 1 would simply have checked each ball to make sure they were still at 12.5, found that they were, and then left the bathroom. Balls therefore remaining at 12.5 until they were exposed to the elements.
 

nighthob

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Except that that didn’t happen. So by lying about the events Brady would have been admitting to a Jets Alumni fantasy and making it easier for the league to suspend him.
 

rbeaud

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Jul 15, 2005
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Late to the party...the non-simple part is getting an accurate gage (said as much in the mega thread). What you can buy at a sporting goods store is barely suitable for measuring whole psi with accuracy. If I were to prepare a document reporting 11.XY psi, the calibrated measuring device shall be 10x better. That means capable of accurately measuring .001 psi as validated by a certified reference (11.XYZ psi, round Y up/dn using standard math rules for Z). A gage that measures 0-25 psi, with an accuracy of +/- .0001% of full scale, is “only” good to +/- .0025 psi. Check out what it costs (and the size!) of gages that can measure with a full scale accuracy of .0001%...that’s not what the Ref had at his disposal.

I strongly suspect the Nike gage wouldn’t reliably know the difference between 11.6 psi and 12.4 psi. The NFL resorted to likelihood of guilt by minuscule changes in tenths of a psi. As many said, the analysis merely supported a predetermined position by the NFL.

Well one of the things that REALLY bothers me about all this is this: NBC, CBS, ESPN, whomever - could have done a very simple thing. Take a standard Wilson NFL game-issue football to a game where the weather is going to be rainy and about 50 degrees. There are plenty of those during an NFL season. Leave it indoors at about 70 degrees (which is about the temp where the footballs are stored indoors before a game) with the pressure set to, oh, 12.5 psi. Then bring it out during the game and leave it exposed to the cold, wet conditions for a half of football.

And then check the air pressure again. Using this simple calculator here, you can make a prediction of what the psi will be: http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html

The wet conditions will make it drop a little more as that has a compounding effect, but this simple calculator - which uses actual laws of physics - gives you an idea of what the psi ought to be. And it turns out it should be about 11.5 psi under these conditions.

And then take the same gauge you used to measure the psi inside (at 12.5 psi at 70 degrees) and measure it again after a half of football in these conditions.

Voila. There's the answer. If the psi is 11.5 (or thereabouts depending on the amount of moisture), then you've confirmed that science is at "fault" here, and the NFL is full of crap. If the psi is still 12.5, then maybe you conclude something different.

But this was SO simple to do, and to my knowledge, NO news/sports agency did this. Or at least, if they did, they didn't publish the results probably because the NFL would never do another TV contract with CBS if CBS was the one to make this information known.

So frustrating that this simple thing wasn't done.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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I've always thought that the likeliest explanation for everything is that Brady got way up the asses of those guys after the Jets game and the over-inflated balls and told them to make sure they were always at the 12.5 before each game. it explains the texts between the guys, how they were a little miffed at him, etc..

So before each game the guys set the balls at 12.5 psi, send them to the refs for inspection, get them back and then do a quick check to make sure they're still at 12.5. No trying to make the balls illegal, just make sure that they weren't pumped up. Pretty easy to check the balls in 90 seconds if you just pop a gauge in each one for a second to ensure they are where they're supposed to be. But also - technically against the rules. So, after the fact, Brady, et al, therefore couldn't admit they were doing that, they could just say that they never intended or tried to play with balls that were underinflated.

It would be interesting to see, assuming the above is true, what would have happened if Brady just came out and said this from the beginning - explain how the refs have overinflated the Patriots game balls in the past during their inspection, so they check them to make sure they're still legal and where they want them. My guess is the penalty would have been about the same...? But maybe it would have blown over quickly.
I've always thought that the likeliest explanation for everything is the ideal gas law.

Why people still feel the need to build up elaborate mythologies over this is mind-boggling. Brady likes his balls at 12.5. Assuming they started that way, they ended up measuring out exactly in the range of what the ideal gas law would predict. Exactly.
 
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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I've always thought that the likeliest explanation for everything is the ideal gas law.

Why people strill feel the need to build up elaborate mythologies over this is mind-boggling. Brady likes his balls at 12.5. Assuming they started that way, they ended up measuring out exactly in the range of what the ideal gas law would predict. Exactly.
This sums it up perfectly. The NFL decided Goodell's authority was more important than science.
 

Jimbodandy

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Fuck Kravitz, Kensil, Goodell, Grigson, Harbaugh, Jeff Pash, Wells, Paul/Weiss, Exponent, Pagano, Irsay, Jerry Jones and the other fascist owners, Mort, Nye & Tyson, Brunell, Bettis, and Chris Simms. I'm probably forgetting someone.

While we're at it, fuck Tomase, Tannenbaum, Fredo Mangini, and Matt Walsh.

Few actual violations, none serious. Multiple high draft picks stolen. Reputation impugned.

Hope they all get firecrabs.
 

Cousin Walter

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Jun 26, 2006
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Don't forget Greg Doyel.

Fuck Kravitz, Kensil, Goodell, Grigson, Harbaugh, Jeff Pash, Wells, Paul/Weiss, Exponent, Pagano, Irsay, Jerry Jones and the other fascist owners, Mort, Nye & Tyson, Brunell, Bettis, and Chris Simms. I'm probably forgetting someone.

While we're at it, fuck Tomase, Tannenbaum, Fredo Mangini, and Matt Walsh.

Few actual violations, none serious. Multiple high draft picks stolen. Reputation impugned.

Hope they all get firecrabs.
 

Myt1

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I mean, I guess I should reveal my bias here: I cannot comprehend the persecution that you (and others) feel about this topic.

It's like the Raiders complaining about the Tuck Rule, except if the Raiders won the game.

The Patriots won the Super Bowl that year. The four games off may have actually *helped* Brady win the Super Bowl that year too.

I hate cultural explanations for things, but it's the only thing I can come up with for how much anger people have for a penalty that had no effect on anything.
The best player in the history of the game was utterly railroaded by lies, fake science, media complicity of both the willful and useful idiot kind, besmirching his reputation and stealing picks from the team—the highest such penalty in history—and it was all done to prove the power of management over labor and to cut down the tall stalk of corn.

If you care at all about sports, the existence of perceivable objective reality, and independent media, you should stop waving your hand at this.
 

snowmanny

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I mean, I guess I should reveal my bias here: I cannot comprehend the persecution that you (and others) feel about this topic.

It's like the Raiders complaining about the Tuck Rule, except if the Raiders won the game.

The Patriots won the Super Bowl that year. The four games off may have actually *helped* Brady win the Super Bowl that year too.

I hate cultural explanations for things, but it's the only thing I can come up with for how much anger people have for a penalty that had no effect on anything.
Yeah they won. And they won again. And again. And maybe Brady will win again. And he's recognized universally as the GOAT.

Doesn't change the fact that before all the winning, back when Manning was the GOAT-in-waiting, there was a concerted effort to destroy Brady's reputation and Belichick's reputation that was bought into by everyone from Mike Pence to Neil DeGrasse Tyson. And it was based on the dumbest shit ever. Like, dumb on the level of people can't understand why the tire pressure light goes on in their car on a cold day shit.

At the end I did not feel persecuted at all. But it was incredibly exasperating to me to be constatnly bombarded by this idiotic and fabricated crap. Still angry about it? Yes.

Of course after deflategate it only got worse.
 

jaytftwofive

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Jan 20, 2013
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Yes, and the conversation was started upthread by RG33. Owners. And I think the media and fans get their signals and then it is dog whistled down stream, but as such things go, it is not that easy to substantiate. But the relentless need to see the Pats as cheating, and therefore the league's more than complicity in trying to 'tarnish' their own greatest dynasty has always seemed troped to me. What is the motive for this? I don't know, but I think it is worth considering that the hostility to the Pats is not just normal sore loser syndrome. There have been plenty of dynasties before that don't get this treatment. Indeed, in football, other good teams get the opposite as their cheating is just given the "boys will be boys" routine (insert 'your team cheats' link here). And, btw, we're in the middle of a conversation in which we are working through the idea of Patriots Paranoia being a precursor for Qanon, et al. I'll only add that to the extent this is an element of things, it is wrapped up in an obvious wider resentment that the greatest dynasty in football comes from Massachusetts. For lots of America (the god, guns, football parts of the landscape) its like having NASCAR dominate by a some guy from Cambridge.

I don't really need to keep on with this. I see it as a dog whistle, from the top of the league on down and I suspect I'm not going to find some Parler page that lays it all out explicitly, so I'll let it go.
[/QUOTE
Kind of surprised but not shocked. There have been other Jewish NFL owners. Caroll Rosenbloom. Art Modell, Leonard Tose, Norman Braman, Jeff Laurie(All owned or own the Eagles.)And Jerry Wolman before Tose.I'm sure there have been others.
 

johnmd20

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So...has anyone watched this documentary yet? Is it work the $5?
Yes. It is absolutely worth the 5 bucks. It was a very well done take down of the process from beginning to end. The NFL gets absolutely smoked for the entire movie.(about everything, not just ballghazi) Watching it made me angry, because it really was a snow job from the get go, but it was still awesome to watch it laid out so clearly.

The entire thing was utter nonsense. And the doc covers all of it in great detail and accuracy. And the ending was excellent.
 

Pandemonium67

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I spent $4, opting for SD rather than HD.

I found it to be pretty good, but I could've imagined it being a lot stronger. They wandered off a bit into issues such as science for hire, which are important and timely, but I wish they had come back from that and savaged the shit out of Exponent for their part in the deflation hoax. They really could've hammered that point more.

Overall, though, the docu does a good job with the science. I'm re-infuriated just thinking about the NFL/Mort's fraudulent, lying tweet about 11 of 12 balls. The NFL and Goodell are dirty lying scumballs, but you already knew that.

Plus, the docu loses a few bonus points for not showing us more of the incredible uproar and distraction the Pats faced for the two weeks before the Seattle Superbowl, and how that game played out. Oh, and fuck you to hell, Rog.

Verdict: Well worth a watch, one thumb up. 38561
 
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Kenny F'ing Powers

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Yep, I wrote about that at length. Just unfathomable that a league that actually saw football tampering happen live on TV *DURING A GAME* and all they did about it was send a memo, would then turn Deflategate into a crusade about the "integrity of the game".
Really? It was literally what they did to the Patriots for Spygate.

"Yeah, it isnt a big deal, but we did send out a memo, so...fuck you."
 

Phil Plantier

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Mar 7, 2002
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I don't know how many of you listen to Antoine Bethea's and Darius Butler's Man to Man pod, but they had D'Qwell Jackson on last week. He talked about his experience being the guy who started Deflategate. I think the board will be ready to whitelist all three former players after listening:

View: https://youtu.be/xUk6gXoBJeo?t=3709
 

Kliq

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I don't know how many of you listen to Antoine Bethea's and Darius Butler's Man to Man pod, but they had D'Qwell Jackson on last week. He talked about his experience being the guy who started Deflategate. I think the board will be ready to whitelist all three former players after listening:

View: https://youtu.be/xUk6gXoBJeo?t=3709
John Harbugh stopping Jackson at the Pro Browl and grilling him about the deflated ball is so on-brand. What a loser.
 

Mystic Merlin

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John Harbugh stopping Jackson at the Pro Browl and grilling him about the deflated ball is so on-brand. What a loser.
That’s fucking hilarious.

As was Jackson’s story about going to a Boston wedding and jetting when word spread that he was there/ he got confronted for starting DFG by the bride’s shitfaced uncles.
 

8slim

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I don't know how many of you listen to Antoine Bethea's and Darius Butler's Man to Man pod, but they had D'Qwell Jackson on last week. He talked about his experience being the guy who started Deflategate. I think the board will be ready to whitelist all three former players after listening:

View: https://youtu.be/xUk6gXoBJeo?t=3709
This is PHENOMENAL. Those dudes are alright in my book.
 

Phil Plantier

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This is PHENOMENAL. Those dudes are alright in my book.
I also recommend the story right after that, when Jackson talks about getting pancaked by Alan Faneca. Or earlier, when he talks about what he needed to do to stay healthy. It's great how frank they all are.