Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

dempsey6068

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Jul 18, 2005
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Not to get too far off topic, but to follow up on the your point about the UFC vs. boxing, I think that it all comes down to marketing. The UFC not MMA in general, but the UFC has done an amazing job, along with the spike network of building up it's fighters and bouts. Most UFC competitors are simply more outgoing, and more marketable than boxers have been lately, either because they're predominantly white Americans, or because they're more extroverted, or a combination of the two.

The fact remains, though, that the UFC puts out an inferior product, especially in light of boxing's recent renaissance. The entire heavyweight division in the UFC is a wasteland - How many times has Tim Sylvia held the title? The current champion is a smallish 42 year old. My problem with watching UFC fights is that I believe all the cross-training actually leads to inferior fighters. While most MMA guys do have some pretty legitimate wrestling backgrounds, the rest of their fighting repetoire is lacking. Except for a few guys who had amateur or professional boxing experience, nobody in the UFC can throw a damn punch right. The exalted Chuck Liddell wouldn't even win a local Golden Gloves tournament at the open level. Personally, I'd rather watch two combatants battle it out in a milieu in which they are both excellent than watch two guys who are both kind of good at a lot of different things try to fight. How many great UFC fights have there been in the last year? The epitome of a great UFC fight is usually held to be the Griffin/Bonnar fight at the conclusion of the Ultimate Fighter 1, but what's the difference between that fight and Castillo/Corrales, Pavlik/Miranda, or Gatti/Ward except the skill level of the participants. If UFC fans are holding up a slug fest as the shining example of the action and brutality of their sport, they might as well watch a boxing match. At least then they'd be watching two guys who actually know how to throw a punch.

That said, I'd love to see boxing unified and marketed by a guy as smart and visionary as Dana White and made as accessible as the UFC is on Spike.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Quick news about boxing coming up on "free" TV (or at least basic cable).

The Evander Holyfield - Sultan Ibragimov heavyweight title fight from Russia will probably (not a done deal yet, but looks likely) be televised live by ESPN Classic. That's on Oct. 13.

On Nov. 10, Don King presents another one of his MSG cable network fights. Jean-Marc Mormeck takes on England's David Haye from Paris for the recognized cruiserweight title. I know the cruisers are the most un-sought-after division on boxing, but there are a bunch of exciting fighters there and they all fight each other. This is two big punchers in what should be a slugfest.

I have pretty mixed feelings about the Holyfield-Ibragimov fight, but if there is a "safe" fight for Holyfield, this is it, so if it's free to watch, I'll be watching. Ibragimov throws a lot of punches, but he's not a hard puncher exactly and he doesn't have great technique. Even in his advanced age, I think Holyfield's got enough left to make this an interesting fight. He's got a big name and the more boxing on non-premium TV the better.

I also read a report that Oscar De La Hoya is planning to fight twice next year (rather than just once, on Cinco De Mayo, as has been his recent tradition), and that he wants one of those fights to air on network TV. If there's one thing that can bring boxing "back" it's a few big fights on free TV where everyone can see them, so all of these developments look good to me. Let's hope they all come to be.
 

eddiew112

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Not to get too far off topic, but to follow up on the your point about the UFC vs. boxing, I think that it all comes down to marketing. The UFC not MMA in general, but the UFC has done an amazing job, along with the spike network of building up it's fighters and bouts. Most UFC competitors are simply more outgoing, and more marketable than boxers have been lately, either because they're predominantly white Americans, or because they're more extroverted, or a combination of the two.

The fact remains, though, that the UFC puts out an inferior product, especially in light of boxing's recent renaissance. The entire heavyweight division in the UFC is a wasteland - How many times has Tim Sylvia held the title? The current champion is a smallish 42 year old. My problem with watching UFC fights is that I believe all the cross-training actually leads to inferior fighters. While most MMA guys do have some pretty legitimate wrestling backgrounds, the rest of their fighting repetoire is lacking. Except for a few guys who had amateur or professional boxing experience, nobody in the UFC can throw a damn punch right. The exalted Chuck Liddell wouldn't even win a local Golden Gloves tournament at the open level. Personally, I'd rather watch two combatants battle it out in a milieu in which they are both excellent than watch two guys who are both kind of good at a lot of different things try to fight. How many great UFC fights have there been in the last year? The epitome of a great UFC fight is usually held to be the Griffin/Bonnar fight at the conclusion of the Ultimate Fighter 1, but what's the difference between that fight and Castillo/Corrales, Pavlik/Miranda, or Gatti/Ward except the skill level of the participants. If UFC fans are holding up a slug fest as the shining example of the action and brutality of their sport, they might as well watch a boxing match. At least then they'd be watching two guys who actually know how to throw a punch.

That said, I'd love to see boxing unified and marketed by a guy as smart and visionary as Dana White and made as accessible as the UFC is on Spike.
I couldn't agree more. All of the hype surrounding UFC has centered around this supposed "no-holds barred" fighting style that exists in UFC. Dana White has run an incredible marketing campaign promoting this, and you see it when the fights are advertised. You only see the brutal ground-pounds that only take up the final 10 seconds of a fight, but not the 10-11 minutes of grabbling that precedes it. I think the whole outlaw image of mixed-martial arts is a bunch of bullshit, personally. I remember watching a video on YouTube of Chuck Liddell showing a class how to throw a punch, and it was terrible (although, to be fair, Liddell's punching style is unorthodox even by UFC standards). World-class boxing provides you multiple times more action than you would ever see in the octagon.

Why is Felix Trinidad coming back? The last thing Tito needs is another blemish on his record, which upon further examination, is not impressive at all. This will be a very dominant performance for Roy.

I would love to see Mormeck fight again. I thought his second fight against O'Neill Bell was one of the better fights of this year.

This is the "safest" fight for Holyfield if he wants a title back, but I can't see it happening. Although Ibragimov maybe one of the worst heavyweight champions in history, judging from Evander's speech, he shouldn't even be licensed to fight. Still, if it's free, I'll watch it.
 

inter tatters

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I would love to see Mormeck fight again. I thought his second fight against O'Neill Bell was one of the better fights of this year.
According to Rafael's latest divisional rankings, Don King has organised for the MSG network to show Mormeck's up-coming Mandatory against Britain's David Haye, for his unanimous Cruiserweight belts, in Paris on November 10th.

Haye, known as the 'Hayemaker' due to his massive KO power (he won the European Title with a one-punch KO after 56secs against a guy who had never previously been dropped!), is probably the best up-coming fighter in Britain behind Amir Khan and will probably step-up to Heavyweight after the bout, win or lose, as he's still growing. There is no way this one goes the full 12 rounds as both men could easily flatten the other with one punch, it looks certain to be a barn-burner!
 

shawnrbu

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The boxing Seniors Tour continues.

In other, mored interesting (to me anyway) news, the lightweight unification fight between belt-holders Juan Diaz and Julio Diaz is reportedly on for October 13. Yet another addition to a blockbuster autumn of classic fights.

I have to assume that this will be a non-network Pay Per View, unfortunately because HBO has exhausted its World Championship Boxing budget and I don't think either one of these guys -- though they're both exciting fighters -- has enough of a name or following to headline an HBO PPV.

Dan Rafael has Diaz vs. Diaz listed as being televised on HBO.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2975880

And, wow, does September through December look stacked for interesting fights.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Dan Rafael has Diaz vs. Diaz listed as being televised on HBO.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2975880
So he does! Good news. I assume that means it'll be on BAD, which must have a separate budget from "World Championship Boxing," because by all accounts, the budget for the latter has already been spent. And BAD is a GOOD place for this fight because Diaz-Diaz is vintage BAD. A great matchup of hungry, young fighters.

The rest of this year is incredibly stacked! The best season of boxing in many years. I'm saving my PPV pennies already.

As for the UFC, the only scenario I could see for "boxing" (as if such an organized entity exists, which it doesn't) to adopt a similar single-promotion business model is is, as Arum and King get older, they somehow let Oscar De La Hoya (and his patrons at HBO) buy them out. Hard to imagine that happening, but if it did, it would create a "super-promotion" with so many top fighters under its roof that it could credibly start making its own matches and crowning its own champions, as the UFC does.

That's a bit of a far-fetched scenario, however. So we're going to have to hope that bo "alphabetxing's disparate, competing interests continue to do what they sem to be doing in the latter half of 2007 -- that is, putting aside their petty feuds and short-sighted money-grabs and cooperating to make the biggest and best fights available. Ultimately, it's the big fights that bring the fans to boxing. Everything else -- the "alphabet" sanctioning bodies, the watered-down weight classes -- is secondary. If we continue to see the type of fights we're going to see between now and the end of the year, boxing will be just fine and will always hold its own against MMA and the UFC.
 

BGrif21125

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If I'm keeping track correctly, here is the schedule for the final 4 months of 2007:

September 8
Vargas vs. Mayorga

September 15
Marquez vs. Juarez

September 22
Klitschko vs. McCline

September 29
Taylor vs. Pavlik

October 6
Pacquiao vs. Barrera
Peter vs. Maskaev

October 13
Diaz vs. Diaz
Holyfield vs. Ibragimov

November 3
Calzaghe vs. Kessler

November 10
Cotto vs. Molsey
Mormeck vs. Haye

November 17
Soto vs. Guzman

December 8
Mayweather vs. Hatton

If you looked thru recent boxing history, you wouldn't have a hard time finding entire years that had less action than this ~12-13 week period figures to have. And this string of fights is occurring in a year that has already seen Mayweather-DLH, Marquez-Vasquez I+II, Barrera-Marquez, Cotto-Judah, among others....

Also, considering how great Arum has been this year with putting together good undercards, I'd assume there'll be some great fights on the PPV undercards that we don't know about yet. For example, I know Casamayor will be on one of the PPV undercards.
 

eddiew112

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This is way out of the blue, but does anyone here have Fight Night Round 3 for the Xbox 360? It would be fun to play some of the people who know boxing on this thread, because I hand it to all of my friends easily.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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If I'm keeping track correctly, here is the schedule for the final 4 months of 2007:

September 8
Vargas vs. Mayorga

September 15
Marquez vs. Juarez

September 22
Klitschko vs. McCline

September 29
Taylor vs. Pavlik

October 6
Pacquiao vs. Barrera
Peter vs. Maskaev

October 13
Diaz vs. Diaz
Holyfield vs. Ibragimov

November 3
Calzaghe vs. Kessler

November 10
Cotto vs. Molsey
Mormeck vs. Haye

November 17
Soto vs. Guzman

December 8
Mayweather vs. Hatton

If you looked thru recent boxing history, you wouldn't have a hard time finding entire years that had less action than this ~12-13 week period figures to have. And this string of fights is occurring in a year that has already seen Mayweather-DLH, Marquez-Vasquez I+II, Barrera-Marquez, Cotto-Judah, among others....

Also, considering how great Arum has been this year with putting together good undercards, I'd assume there'll be some great fights on the PPV undercards that we don't know about yet. For example, I know Casamayor will be on one of the PPV undercards.
Adding to the list, a DVR alert: also on Sept. 29 Showtime has confirmed Chad Dawson vs. Adrian Diaconu. Dawson is arguably the "real" light-heavyweight champion, but the Romanian-Canadian Diaconu should give him all he can handle. This fight will fly under the radar going up against Taylor-Pavlik on HBO, but it should be a great one nonetheless. Also, even if you don't have Showtime, this one is part of the Showtime free preview weekend, which is why Showtime is determined to air a fight of some kind that night (Dawson-Tarver was the original plan) -- and why Showtime which usually airs its "Championship Boxing" just once per month, will be on for three straight Saturdays with V. Klitschko-McCline, Dawson-Diaconu then Peter-Maskaev.
 

BGrif21125

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Cotto-Mosley tickets go on-sale September 6th at noon. Figured I'd mention it, since I'm sure at least a few of us plan on being in attendance. I can't wait to be at the Garden for this one.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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More news: Coming off of his step-up win over Cosme Rivera, Andre Berto will take another step up on the undercard of Taylor-Pavlik on Sept. 29. He'll fight David Estrada, a very solid welterweight "fringe contender." Estrada was stopped by Kermit Cintron last year in a thrilling FOY candidate fight. In 2005 he lost a 10-round UD to Shane Mosley. But except for a loss in 2003 to the pre-Contender Ishe Smith, he's beaten everyone else he's faced.

So Estrada is a guy who loses against world-class competition, but appears capable of beating most fighters below that level. That makes this fight a legitimate test for Berto, after which he should be ready to face one of the top 10 welterweights -- if he wins. If he loses, well, obviously a huge setback for Berto. I'd make Berto the favorite in the fight, but not by much. Estrada is more than capable of pulling off an upset and it should be an exciting fight. I assume (or at least hope) HBO will televise it as the co-feature to Taylor-Pavlik. That would make for a spectacular show.
 
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Big news in the heavyweight division - a box-off! Chris Byrd, Alexander Povetkin, Eddie Chambers and Calvin Brock will have a three fight box-off to determine Wladimir Klitschko's mandatory opponent.

Byrd vs. Povetkin Oct. 27 in Germany
Chambers vs. Brock Nov. 2 on Showbox (site to be determined)

Winners meet in early 08, winner of that to face Klitschko.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2989629

It's not unification but it's something to get excited about, I guess.
 

eddiew112

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Big news in the heavyweight division - a box-off! Chris Byrd, Alexander Povetkin, Eddie Chambers and Calvin Brock will have a three fight box-off to determine Wladimir Klitschko's mandatory opponent.

Byrd vs. Povetkin Oct. 27 in Germany
Chambers vs. Brock Nov. 2 on Showbox (site to be determined)

Winners meet in early 08, winner of that to face Klitschko.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2989629

It's not unification but it's something to get excited about, I guess.
I like Eddie Chambers' chances in the box-off. He has not faced the competition that the other fighters have, but I have seen him fight two or three times on ESPN, and I came away impressed each time. The first time I saw him fight, I made a post on here in which I said he would be a force in the heavyweight division in the future. I'm glad that I was right.

I saw Kevin McBride in my old gym training for his fight against Andrew Golota. I talked to him for about 5 minutes, and he was a great guy. Despite the fact that he's not very good, I will be rooting for him!
 

dempsey6068

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I like Eddie Chambers' chances in the box-off. He has not faced the competition that the other fighters have, but I have seen him fight two or three times on ESPN, and I came away impressed each time. The first time I saw him fight, I made a post on here in which I said he would be a force in the heavyweight division in the future. I'm glad that I was right.

I saw Kevin McBride in my old gym training for his fight against Andrew Golota. I talked to him for about 5 minutes, and he was a great guy. Despite the fact that he's not very good, I will be rooting for him!
[/quote

Don't underestimate Kevin. I'm very familiar with him and his training. A lot of people will be impressed.
 

BGrif21125

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Vargas-Mayorga postponed:

The fight, scheduled to take place at the Staples Center in Los Angeles on Showtime PPV, was postponed Saturday because Vargas was diagnosed with anemia, manager Shelly Finkel told ESPN.com.

"Fernando is disappointed. He put a lot of time into training for this fight," Finkel said. "Hopefully, it can be rescheduled. The doctor said if everything is OK, he can probably start training again in two or three weeks."
P.S. Cintron was supposed to fight on the Vargas undercard, and now there's a chance he fights December 1st on Showtime, maybe a rematch with Margarito or a fight with Clottey. Either one would be a great matchup
 

shawnrbu

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I'm bummed about Vargas-Mayorga being postponed. I loved the back and forth between Vargas, Mayorga and Jim Gray during Showtime's presentation of Marquez-Vazquez II. Even though neither Vargas nor Mayorga is highly regarded right now, it was going to be a surefire barnburner. And Staples Center fights have awesome atmosphere. We are also deprived of a potential KO of the Year because Cintron vs. Feliciano was on the undercard.
 

eddiew112

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Don't underestimate Kevin. I'm very familiar with him and his training. A lot of people will be impressed.
I'm not underestimating him, per se. I am judging him by his performance, which, even in the Tyson fight that he won, has not been all that impressive. I should clarify that by "not very good" I meant that in terms of top-20 heavyweights in the world. Maybe he can prove me wrong. I would love it.

Hey Dempsey, do you train at Petronelli's? I used to train at Boston Boxing up in Watertown.
 

eddiew112

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I like Eddie Chambers' chances in the box-off. He has not faced the competition that the other fighters have, but I have seen him fight two or three times on ESPN, and I came away impressed each time. The first time I saw him fight, I made a post on here in which I said he would be a force in the heavyweight division in the future. I'm glad that I was right.

I saw Kevin McBride in my old gym training for his fight against Andrew Golota. I talked to him for about 5 minutes, and he was a great guy. Despite the fact that he's not very good, I will be rooting for him!
[/quote

Don't underestimate Kevin. I'm very familiar with him and his training. A lot of people will be impressed.
I'm not underestimating him, per se. I am judging him by his performance, which, even in the Tyson fight that he won, has not been all that impressive. I should clarify that by "not very good" I meant that in terms of top-20 heavyweights in the world. Maybe he can prove me wrong. I would love it.

Hey Dempsey, do you train at Petronelli's? I used to train at Boston Boxing up in Watertown.
 

dempsey6068

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Jul 18, 2005
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I did train at Petronelli's until I moved out to LA on thursday. I also taught boxing at TPS in Everett. My point about Kevin is that he never really came in in shape, and focused way too much on his power, and not on his speed or movement. He's had an excellent personal trainer the last few months who has gotten him in tiptop shape, and really made him much stronger. He'll also be training with Buddy McGirt, and I think with I new trainer and a new conditioning level he could challenge anyone in the division right now except Wlad.
 

eddiew112

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I did train at Petronelli's until I moved out to LA on thursday. I also taught boxing at TPS in Everett. My point about Kevin is that he never really came in in shape, and focused way too much on his power, and not on his speed or movement. He's had an excellent personal trainer the last few months who has gotten him in tiptop shape, and really made him much stronger. He'll also be training with Buddy McGirt, and I think with I new trainer and a new conditioning level he could challenge anyone in the division right now except Wlad.
Wow. That's really good to hear. Going to go to Freddie Roach's gym in LA?
 

shawnrbu

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I've read that Ibragimov-Holyfield will not be on ESPN Classic. Instead, it will be another one of those minor pay per views. It's been such a wonderful year for boxing, but right when you think the sport may have actually turned itself around the stupidity rears its ugly head. Thank God for Don King being a big-time promoter who will toss out the occasional attractive free fight (Mormeck-Haye on 11/10).

Also, has anybody seen Ivan Calderon fight? With his victory last night at 108 pounds over a highly regarded fighter who outweighed him by over 15 pounds and had six inches on him, there is talk of Calderon having a serious case at being a Top 5 pound for pound fighter.
 

dempsey6068

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I was going to look into it. I really just picked up and left, so I don't really have my bearings here at all. There are some amazing gyms out here though, it seems. I was looking into one the other day for lifting, and it turns out it's owned by Scot Mendelsohn - the first man to bench over 1000.
 

BGrif21125

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The '08 Olympic team is set:

106 lbs: Luis Yanez, Duncanville, Texas
112 lbs: Rau’shee Warren, Cincinnati, Ohio
119 lbs: Gary Russell, Jr., Capitol Heights, Md.
125 lbs: Raynell Williams, Cleveland, Ohio
132 lbs: Sadam Ali, Brooklyn, N.Y.
141 lbs: Javier Molina, Commerce, Calif.
152 lbs: Demetrius Andrade, Providence, R.I.
165 lbs: Shawn Estrada, Downey, Calif.
178 lbs: Christopher Downs, Fort Carson, Colo.
201 lbs: Deontay Wilder, Tuscaloosa, Ala.
201+ lbs: Michael Hunter, Las Vegas, Nev.
Russell has been getting a good amount of press down here in the DC papers, he qualified this weekend. It will also be interesting to see a Rhode Islander competing.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Not to get too far off topic, but to follow up on the your point about the UFC vs. boxing, I think that it all comes down to marketing. The UFC not MMA in general, but the UFC has done an amazing job, along with the spike network of building up it's fighters and bouts. Most UFC competitors are simply more outgoing, and more marketable than boxers have been lately, either because they're predominantly white Americans, or because they're more extroverted, or a combination of the two.

The fact remains, though, that the UFC puts out an inferior product, especially in light of boxing's recent renaissance. The entire heavyweight division in the UFC is a wasteland - How many times has Tim Sylvia held the title? The current champion is a smallish 42 year old. My problem with watching UFC fights is that I believe all the cross-training actually leads to inferior fighters. While most MMA guys do have some pretty legitimate wrestling backgrounds, the rest of their fighting repetoire is lacking. Except for a few guys who had amateur or professional boxing experience, nobody in the UFC can throw a damn punch right. The exalted Chuck Liddell wouldn't even win a local Golden Gloves tournament at the open level. Personally, I'd rather watch two combatants battle it out in a milieu in which they are both excellent than watch two guys who are both kind of good at a lot of different things try to fight. How many great UFC fights have there been in the last year? The epitome of a great UFC fight is usually held to be the Griffin/Bonnar fight at the conclusion of the Ultimate Fighter 1, but what's the difference between that fight and Castillo/Corrales, Pavlik/Miranda, or Gatti/Ward except the skill level of the participants. If UFC fans are holding up a slug fest as the shining example of the action and brutality of their sport, they might as well watch a boxing match. At least then they'd be watching two guys who actually know how to throw a punch.

That said, I'd love to see boxing unified and marketed by a guy as smart and visionary as Dana White and made as accessible as the UFC is on Spike.

On the one hand, I really don't want to get into the whole "Boxing vs. UFC/MMA" thing, which I think is both silly and a dead end, kind of like comparing baseball to football. But I couldn't help but note -- I read that in one of the undercard bouts on last Saturday's UFC PPV show, a winning fighter deliberately choked his opponent into unconsciousness, keeping his choke hold in place even after his opponent had "tapped out" AND the referee tried to get his own hands in there to break the hold.

Now, as an aside, I can't understand why MMA allows "choking out" as a permissible tactic. I mean, it's illegal for police to use the choke hold on criminal suspects in many states. Cutting off the supply of oxygen and blood to someone's brain is a fatality waiting to happen (and for many criminal suspects, it has been fatal).

But it is an allowable submission hold in the UFC, so there you go. But this guy, Renato "Babalu" Sobral, holding the choke past the point where the fight had been stopped is just incredible to me. What's more, "Babalu" bragged about it in his post-fight TV interview, declaring that his oppoenent (or victim, in this case) needed to "learn respect."

This would be the equivalent, in boxing, of a fighter punching his opponent in the head as hard as he can after the ref has already waved off the fight, knocking him out cold -- then bragging about it to Larry Merchant in the ring afterward. If that ever happened, you'd see it all over every sportscast as evidence of what a degenerate joke the sport of boxing has become. But this happens in the UFC and it passes with barely a comment (props to Kevin Iole of Yahoo Sports for calling out the UFC on this).

"Babalu" was hit with a $25,000 fine by the NSAC for almost murdering a man -- while Bernard Hopkins got a $250,000 fine for his phony slap at Winky Wright during a press conference. I think Hopkins deserved that fine, frankly. But doesn't Babalu deserve even worse -- a criminal prosecution even?

Why the double standard?
 

BGrif21125

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"Babalu" was hit with a $25,000 fine by the NSAC for almost murdering a man -- while Bernard Hopkins got a $250,000 fine for his phony slap at Winky Wright during a press conference. I think Hopkins deserved that fine, frankly. But doesn't Babalu deserve even worse -- a criminal prosecution even?

Why the double standard?
Another example of the discrepancy between the two sports:

Yoel Judah, Roger Mayweather, and Leonard Ellerbe all received fines between 50-100K, just for being accessories in the Mayweather-Judah fiasco.
Judah got 250K and a year's suspension. (Now granted, part of his punishment factored in that he was a repeat offender and had been previously suspended after the Tszyu fight.... but still....)

I guess one important thing would be to know how much this guy made for this UFC fight. What does the 25K represent percentage-wise of his purse?
 

shawnrbu

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I'm glad the fight has been rescheduled. It should be an entertaining show. I have to believe Showtime will lose significant buys with this fight coming two weeks after Cotto-Mosley and two weeks prior to Mayweather-Hatton. That's a lot of dollars to shell out in a five week span.
 

BGrif21125

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I have to believe Showtime will lose significant buys with this fight coming two weeks after Cotto-Mosley and two weeks prior to Mayweather-Hatton. That's a lot of dollars to shell out in a five week span.
Agreed. I thought the fight would have done decently if it had gone off as scheduled on Sept. 8th, because there hasn't been a big fight in a month, so people might be itching to watch a fight and order the PPV.

But I doubt many will order it now. I'll already be paying ~$100 to see Pac/Barrera and Mayweather/Hatton, plus the price of tix to Cotto/Mosley, I'll just skip Vargas-Mayorga and save the money. Plus being the day after Thanksgiving, a lot of people will be traveling or stuck doing other things.

I'm guessing what happened is once they got pushed back to November, their options were really limited because the seasons for the Lakers/Clippers/Kings have already begun, so Staples Center is always booked. This was probably the one day the arena was available.
 

eddiew112

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The '08 Olympic team is set:
Russell has been getting a good amount of press down here in the DC papers, he qualified this weekend. It will also be interesting to see a Rhode Islander competing.
Out of that group, I would say that Warren and Andrade have the best shot at medaling.
 

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On the one hand, I really don't want to get into the whole "Boxing vs. UFC/MMA" thing, which I think is both silly and a dead end, kind of like comparing baseball to football. But I couldn't help but note -- I read that in one of the undercard bouts on last Saturday's UFC PPV show, a winning fighter deliberately choked his opponent into unconsciousness, keeping his choke hold in place even after his opponent had "tapped out" AND the referee tried to get his own hands in there to break the hold.
Inexcuseable.

Now, as an aside, I can't understand why MMA allows "choking out" as a permissible tactic. I mean, it's illegal for police to use the choke hold on criminal suspects in many states. Cutting off the supply of oxygen and blood to someone's brain is a fatality waiting to happen (and for many criminal suspects, it has been fatal).
You're understandably troubled by what was a dangerous and inexcusable violation of the rules. But really, to use possible fatality as a way of condemning MMA vis-a-vis boxing? There have been something like 65 boxing fatalities from 2000 to present. Punching someone in the head is a "fatality waiting to happen," and one need only look at former greats such as Ali and Frasier to see the possible permanent ill effects of boxing.

But it is an allowable submission hold in the UFC, so there you go. But this guy, Renato "Babalu" Sobral, holding the choke past the point where the fight had been stopped is just incredible to me. What's more, "Babalu" bragged about it in his post-fight TV interview, declaring that his oppoenent (or victim, in this case) needed to "learn respect."
As I said, inexcusable.

This would be the equivalent, in boxing, of a fighter punching his opponent in the head as hard as he can after the ref has already waved off the fight, knocking him out cold
Really, I have no evidence to back this up, but I would be astounded if it didn't happen at some point within the last 15 years or so. Given the riots, walkie-talkie melees and ear-biting, I really find it difficult to believe that no boxer in recent memory has continued to try to punch an opponent as the ref is trying to stop the fight.

"Babalu" was hit with a $25,000 fine by the NSAC for almost murdering a man -- while Bernard Hopkins got a $250,000 fine for his phony slap at Winky Wright during a press conference. I think Hopkins deserved that fine, frankly. But doesn't Babalu deserve even worse -- a criminal prosecution even?

Why the double standard?
I can almost guarantee that Hopkins made at least 10-20 times what Babalu made for their respective fights.

Look, I love boxing. But you're taking a single MMA incident and blowing it up as a harbinger for death and destruction while ignoring the fact that boxers have died in the ring with absolutely no rules violation whatsoever.

EDIT: It looks like Babalu's purse was $50,000. So he got fined half his purse. I wouldn't be surprised if he faced substantial further fine and suspension.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Inexcuseable.
You're understandably troubled by what was a dangerous and inexcusable violation of the rules. But really, to use possible fatality as a way of condemning MMA vis-a-vis boxing? There have been something like 65 boxing fatalities from 2000 to present. Punching someone in the head is a "fatality waiting to happen," and one need only look at former greats such as Ali and Frasier to see the possible permanent ill effects of boxing.

As I said, inexcusable.
Really, I have no evidence to back this up, but I would be astounded if it didn't happen at some point within the last 15 years or so. Given the riots, walkie-talkie melees and ear-biting, I really find it difficult to believe that no boxer in recent memory has continued to try to punch an opponent as the ref is trying to stop the fight.
I can almost guarantee that Hopkins made at least 10-20 times what Babalu made for their respective fights.

Look, I love boxing. But you're taking a single MMA incident and blowing it up as a harbinger for death and destruction while ignoring the fact that boxers have died in the ring with absolutely no rules violation whatsoever.

EDIT: It looks like Babalu's purse was $50,000. So he got fined half his purse. I wouldn't be surprised if he faced substantial further fine and suspension.

That's the whole point. People have died in boxing "with no rules violation whatsoever." Unfortunately -- very unfortunately -- it's a dangerous sport and, like auto racing, it can sometimes result in fatalities. I do believe that especially today, professional boxing takes some very strong measures to prevent ring deaths though, without a doubt, much more can and should be done.

I've viewed thousands of boxing matches over the years and I've personally seen "only" two that resulted in fatalities. That's two too many, of course. But what I have never seen is what you describe, a boxer who, seconds after a fight has been clearly waved off, continues to pound a semi-conscious opponent into unconciousness -- then bragged about it afterward. Doesn't mean it's never happened -- boxing can be pretty crazy -- but I've never seen a violation that extreme.

Despite MMA's claim of "no fatalities," inevitably there will be one someday, probably several if the sport continues to grow and expand. MMA is also a dangerous sport. I don't hold that against the sport at all. I just hope the inevitable first fatality is the accidental result of straightforward competition, not deliberate murder.

I wasn't trying to compare the two sports. I was just asking why there seems to be a double standard. The media has long loved to tell us what a dirty, degenerate sport boxing is. But MMA is presented as the next big thing for mainstream America. And when something like this happens, it gets little or no coverage. I'm just wondering why. I have my theories, but I really don't know.
 

Myt1

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I think that part of the image problem of boxing is that problems seem more systemic. From too many belts to BS judging, to phony camera op weigh-in "fights" to weak mandatory challengers to constant litigation between fighters and promoters. All of these problems, combined with the national and worldwide popularity of boxing (especially historically) is going to lead to more media coverage.

While MMA is presented as the next big thing, the overall media coverage of it is still much less pervasive than boxing. ESPN.com only recently began an MMA section. Yahoo is starting to get into it a bit. I think part of the reason for the lack of coverage of this story is the lack of coverage in general.

The reactions of the fans and Dana White to Babalu's actions (from what I read in the article, I've not done any further research) make me optimistic that UFC will try to keep things like this from happening again.

I'm enjoying this discussion, and would be interested to hear your theories of why this incident got little coverage. To avoid bogging down the boxing thread, perhaps we should start a new one. Maybe there can be a thread discussing all combat sports (boxing/wrestling/MMA/specific martial arts) that won't devolve into an internecine pissing match. I think there's a decent number of people here who are fans of or current/former competeitors in one or more of these types of sports, and I think some cross discussion could be fun.
 

BGrif21125

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This is the one instance I can remember off the top of my head where a boxing ref tried to stop a fight and a fighter continued to go after the opponent.

Of course, there are two factors at play here.... first, the ref didn't jump in forcefully enough, and secondly, Tyson is a raving lunatic. It was after this fight that he gave his legendary "I want to eat his children" interview.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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This is the one instance I can remember off the top of my head where a boxing ref tried to stop a fight and a fighter continued to go after the opponent.

Of course, there are two factors at play here.... first, the ref didn't jump in forcefully enough, and secondly, Tyson is a raving lunatic. It was after this fight that he gave his legendary "I want to eat his children" interview.
Watching that Tyson-Savarese conclusion again, as insane as Tyson is, I have to blame the referee for that one. It's pretty clear that even Savarese wasn't sure what was going on. The ref did not make clear that the fight was over and in fact, it takes another 10 or 15 seconds after breaking the two fighters that he actually "waves off" the fight.

As for Babalu, I guess Dana White did what he could do by washing his hands of the matter, but it's really the Nevada State Athletic Commission that I'm more concerned with. I'll be interested to see if they hit this guy with a suspension, which they certainly should. As it is, he's a free agent and could fight again tomorrow if someone wanted to pay him.

Anyway, as I said, I don't want to devolve this into a boxing vs. MMA agrument, which to me -- in the words of Mike Myers' Dieter -- "has grown tiresome." I'm not a huge fan of MMA, but I do enjoy it to an extent. Obviously I love boxing and, to me, it's a clearly "better" sport. But I fully realize that my personal preferences don't apply to anyone else and I'm more than fine with anyone who prefers MMA. Though they're both fighting sports, obviously, they are very, very different. Whether you like one or the other is, again, no different than preferring baseball over football or vice versa. It's all subjective.

And back on the subject of boxing, because Showtime has boxing on three straight Saturdays later this month, they're skipping their first Saturday of the month "Championship Boxing" broadcast tonight. BUT -- they are showing a special Saturday edition of "ShoBox" at 10 pm Eastern. Victor Oganov, a Russian (via Australia) super-middleweight prospect who is 26-0 with 26 knockouts takes on the durable "fringe contender" Fulgencio Zuniga, whose only two losses came to Daniel Santos and Kelly Pavlik, both pretty good prospects themselves.

Should be a good chance to see if Oganov is the real thing or just another import with an inflated record.
 

shawnrbu

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I see that Floyd Mayweather is featured on this season of Dancing with the Stars premiering on September 24th. If he makes it deep into the competition (top 3 or 4), that should take him deep into November. Isn't that going to have a significant effect on his preparation for the 12/8 fight with Hatton? Or is it a given that Floyd is going to treat this like Master P did and will be voted off within the first three weeks?
 

ElUno20

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I see that Floyd Mayweather is featured on this season of Dancing with the Stars premiering on September 24th. If he makes it deep into the competition (top 3 or 4), that should take him deep into November. Isn't that going to have a significant effect on his preparation for the 12/8 fight with Hatton? Or is it a given that Floyd is going to treat this like Master P did and will be voted off within the first three weeks?

This shows how little he respects Hatton. Rightfully so, IMO. I think he could probably Willie Pep a few rounds against Hatton's slow ass. Floyd was also on cribs this weeks. Very nice collection of vehicles.

Oh yeah, if you ever wonder why Zab is a f'n clown with no focus and who's career has mounted to squat...it's b/c he gets involved in this type of stuff.
 

eddiew112

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Zab is a fucking piece of shit. I have defended Zab in the past, but what the hell is he doing playing a dice game on the street anyways? Then having his crew beat on some guy because Zab tried to the leave the game without paying. Pathetic.

I liked it when Floyd was making it rain all over his bed in Cribs.

Ricky Hatton might not be on Floyd's level skill wise (who is?), but he deserves a little more respect than that.

As a final add-on to the MMA vs. Boxing argument, I think that when a lot of Americans think about boxing, they think "corrupt, fixed, and deadly." This gives MMA an obvious marketing advantage because it market itsself as a sort of fresh new alternative. One thing I find funny is how much the media lauds Dana White. I understand that the man built UFC from nothing, but he is a sketchy character. If you ever actually hear him talk, or talk to people in the Boston area who knew him (by this I mean the boxing world), you get a very different picture of him. I predict that within 5 years he becomes the newest Don King.

EDIT: My opinion on Dana White is based off second and third-hand sources. I could be wrong.
 

BGrif21125

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I'd need more info before I decide whether or not this whole Dancing with the Stars thing is a big distraction.

I assume the show is filmed in LA, Floyd trains in Vegas.

While he's on the show, what exactly are his commitments? Does his need to be in LA to film one day a week? 2? 3? 5?

Does anyone know?

If he's gotta make the quick flight from LA to Vegas once a week, then it's not that big of a deal IMO. If it's substantially more than that.... say, several days a week, then he'd actually have to move his camp from Vegas to LA.

He's obviously doing this in the hope that it will increase PPV sales for the fight, since part of his fight contract probably includes a % of PPV revenues.
 
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This is the one instance I can remember off the top of my head where a boxing ref tried to stop a fight and a fighter continued to go after the opponent.

Of course, there are two factors at play here.... first, the ref didn't jump in forcefully enough, and secondly, Tyson is a raving lunatic. It was after this fight that he gave his legendary "I want to eat his children" interview.
The one boxing incident of disgusting sportsmanship that stands out in my mind was, I believe at a ballroom boxing show in NYC that was on Espn2. The losing fighter sucker-punched the winner (without gloves on) as the ref was raising his arm in victory. I can't remember the fighter's names but I do remember that getting heavy play on sportscenter,etc.
 

eddiew112

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That would be this incident by James Butler after his fight with Richard Grant. James Butler is now in jail after murdering Mex Kellerman's brother, Sam.
 

BGrif21125

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Also, it's being reported that Joshua Clottey will face Luis Collazo at MSG on the Cotto-Mosley undercard. If it does indeed get signed, what a great undercard fight.
 

inter tatters

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Argument brewing in the Hatton - Pretty Boy ranks according to the UK Press. Hatton's British fans were promised 10,000 tickets for the fight, but Pretty Boy's team, who are apparently in charge of allocating the tickets, are only offering 3,900 to Hatton's supporters. Nowhere near enough for the amount of Fans that have booked trips and believed they already had tickets on the way.
 

BGrif21125

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Argument brewing in the Hatton - Pretty Boy ranks according to the UK Press. Hatton's British fans were promised 10,000 tickets for the fight, but Pretty Boy's team, who are apparently in charge of allocating the tickets, are only offering 3,900 to Hatton's supporters. Nowhere near enough for the amount of Fans that have booked trips and believed they already had tickets on the way.
I've read about this at other sites as well, and what I don't get is..... why can't Hatton fans just go to ticketmaster.com and buy tickets the same way everyone else does? They don't need to buy tickets directly thru Ricky Hatton and his camp.

I read that Mayweather and Hatton have each been allotted 3,900 tickets, so 7,800 combined. What's the MGM Grand hold.... 17,000? That's a lot of remaining available tickets that Hatton fans (or anyone else) can buy.

P.S. I read somewhere recently (Rafael chat, maybe?) that HBO will be doing some type of extended preview special leading up to Mayweather-Hatton. Maybe not a full-blown 24/7 like Floyd-Oscar, but something more than the usual 30 minute Countdown special.
 

Myt1

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Zab is a fucking piece of shit. I have defended Zab in the past, but what the hell is he doing playing a dice game on the street anyways? Then having his crew beat on some guy because Zab tried to the leave the game without paying. Pathetic.

I liked it when Floyd was making it rain all over his bed in Cribs.

Ricky Hatton might not be on Floyd's level skill wise (who is?), but he deserves a little more respect than that.

As a final add-on to the MMA vs. Boxing argument, I think that when a lot of Americans think about boxing, they think "corrupt, fixed, and deadly." This gives MMA an obvious marketing advantage because it market itsself as a sort of fresh new alternative. One thing I find funny is how much the media lauds Dana White. I understand that the man built UFC from nothing, but he is a sketchy character. If you ever actually hear him talk, or talk to people in the Boston area who knew him (by this I mean the boxing world), you get a very different picture of him. I predict that within 5 years he becomes the newest Don King.

EDIT: My opinion on Dana White is based off second and third-hand sources. I could be wrong.
IIRC, there's a few former boxers from Southie who have been friends with White for a while, and who do some MMA training. I recall discussing the ill-fated White/Ortiz match with one of them at my barber's shop. What can I say . . . it's Southie.
 

eddiew112

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Anyone check out the Contender tonight? I saw only bits and pieces, but I was glad to see that they took steps to eliminate the weak fighters before the fighting started.

Myt, my stuff on White comes from various guys I have talked to at events in the Memorial Auditorium, IBEW Hall, and the Castle. All of the stuff I heard was like "I have a buddy who says he is an asshole" kind of stuff.

As an aside, how many gyms are there left in Southie?