Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

[BGrif21125]

Hatton needs to get a grip and realize that he got beat fair and square by a fighter who is light-years better than he is. I actually thought Hatton performed well and made the fight more competitive than I expected it to be. He really has nothing to be ashamed of with his performance.

I've said a bunch of times that I expect Hatton to fall off a cliff around age 30 because of his style and poor weight habits, but if he keeps living in denial about this loss, he might be done even sooner than I thought.

Shane Mosley looks like he'll fight May 17 against -- Ricardo Mayorga. Well, all the other top welters are already booked, so I guess this fight should at least be entertaining. I also expect it means that Shane will go back up to 154 or a catch weight. And hopefully this will be on regular HBO, not PPV.

Dan Rafael is saying that this is being planned as a PPV. That's a bad PPV fight. Mosley has never been a draw, and Mayorga is a corpse who can only beat other corpses like Vargas.

But I have to say, 2008 is off to a somewhat sputtering start. Some good fights lined up, no great ones (except maybe Pacquiao-Marquez II), and of course the useless DLH-Mayweather II.

I'm not sure where I stand yet on 2008 so far.

Obviously, the announcement of Floyd-Oscar II (which more importantly, ended the chances of Floyd-Cotto) was a BIG dose of bad news. But other than that, I can't think of any other big fights that have fallen apart.

Pac-Marquez II should be great. I'm really excited for the welterweight doubleheader in April, and if all goes according to plan, Cotto vs. Margarito/Cintron will be an exciting fight for the summer. Dawson/Johnson is a good crossroads fight at 175. The Haye fight should be entertaining at cruiserweight.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Hatton needs to get a grip and realize that he got beat fair and square by a fighter who is light-years better than he is. I actually thought Hatton performed well and made the fight more competitive than I expected it to be. He really has nothing to be ashamed of with his performance.

I've said a bunch of times that I expect Hatton to fall off a cliff around age 30 because of his style and poor weight habits, but if he keeps living in denial about this loss, he might be done even sooner than I thought.

Yeah, that's my feeling. he still hasn't picked an opponent for his comeback fight in May. It'll be interesting to see if they choose a real soft touch, because it's always hard for a fighter to rebound from his first loss, and being knocked out flat on his back makes it that much harder. If he starts taking tough fights too soon, he could get brutalized and be effectively done by the end of this year. If he takes too many gimmes, well, then he's just another John Duddy.

Dan Rafael is saying that this is being planned as a PPV. That's a bad PPV fight. Mosley has never been a draw, and Mayorga is a corpse who can only beat other corpses like Vargas.

Well, that's another PPV I won't be buying. I'll go out and find a bar to watch it because, why not? But 50 bucks, or even 45, for that kind of a mismatch? No thanks.

I'm sure Mayorga will have some interesting things to say about Shane's wife, though. I guess Golden Boy is counting on Mayorga's mouth to sell this fight, which is kind of sad when you think about it.

I'm not sure where I stand yet on 2008 so far.

Obviously, the announcement of Floyd-Oscar II (which more importantly, ended the chances of Floyd-Cotto) was a BIG dose of bad news. But other than that, I can't think of any other big fights that have fallen apart.

Pac-Marquez II should be great. I'm really excited for the welterweight doubleheader in April, and if all goes according to plan, Cotto vs. Margarito/Cintron will be an exciting fight for the summer. Dawson/Johnson is a good crossroads fight at 175. The Haye fight should be entertaining at cruiserweight.

Yeah, there are some good ones lined up, but nothing really breathtaking so far. Don't get me wrong, this looks like a pretty decent first half of '08. But I think it is a letdown after Fall '07. There are plenty of fights I want to see. But outside of Pac-Marquez II, there's nothing that makes me think, "That's a fight I've been WAITING to see!" At least not so far.

 

[inter tatters]

For an ex-World Champ Gairy St Clair did next to nothing in his fight with Amir Khan and Khan duly walked his way to a 120-108 shutout on all 3 cards. St Clair chased Khan around the ring all the way through the fight, but never bothered to throw any punches. Khan meanwhile was happy to throw flurries on the back foot all night and rack up the rounds, making it painfully boring to watch.

Frank Warren has said that Khan will either fight for the European title, or come over to the US for a fight next. But there is no way he will appear on the Calzaghe-Hopkins undercard, as he feels 'Khan is a bigger star than both fighters already'. I nearly puked up my lunch when I read that earlier...

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

For an ex-World Champ Gairy St Clair did next to nothing in his fight with Amir Khan and Khan duly walked his way to a 120-108 shutout on all 3 cards. St Clair chased Khan around the ring all the way through the fight, but never bothered to throw any punches. Khan meanwhile was happy to throw flurries on the back foot all night and rack up the rounds, making it painfully boring to watch.

Frank Warren has said that Khan will either fight for the European title, or come over to the US for a fight next. But there is no way he will appear on the Calzaghe-Hopkins undercard, as he feels 'Khan is a bigger star than both fighters already'. I nearly puked up my lunch when I read that earlier...

So Khan is now saying he wants to "clean out" the lightweight division then move up to 140. But there are some pretty good lightweights out there. I'd love to see him take on a Juan Diaz or even a Michael Katsidis.

 

[BGrif21125]

Khan is still so young, that I'd be surprised to see him fight a Juan Diaz-caliber guy in the near future. I think Warren will be extra cautious in how Khan is handled.

Maybe at some point in '08, he'll face a Top 10-15 lightweight... I'm thinking the Edner Cherry/Wes Ferguson/Jonathon Thaxtons of the world. If he were to pass that with flying colors, maybe he gets a Julio Diaz or someone of that caliber. I'm also curious as to how long Khan will be able to keep his body at 135 pounds, since he has the height of a full-blown welterweight.

I'd love to see him at 140/147 a few years from now competing against the Peterson brothers, Devon Alexander, Berto, Victor Ortiz, etc.

 

[inter tatters]

I hadn't seen anything in the British Press, which isn't surprising considering they are so Hatton or Calzaghe centred at the moment, but I just read on Rafael's column that Junior Witter is heading to the States to give Demetrius Hopkins a shot at his title on the Casamayor-Katsidis undercard on March 22nd.

It's a good move for Witter, because if he can get a win and a decent showing, the US networks could start offering the incentives necessary to stop Hatton ducking Witter and give us Brits the fight we want to see! :c070:

 

[BGrif21125]

It looks like it might be Mosley-Judah now instead of Mosley-Mayorga, on 5/31 in Vegas.

 

[shawnrbu]

Sure would have been nice to have seen the 2000 Mosley fight the 2005 version of Judah. I'm glad Shane might be staying at welterweight even though Mosley-Mayorga probably would have felt like a bigger fight w/ the pre-match hype only Ricardo Mayorga can provide. How did Mayorga screw up this payday?

Any interest in Williams-Quintana this weekend? I'll be curious to see if Williams can dispose of Quintana faster than Cotto did. Williams has slid under the radar since beating Margarito. Tony is still probably going to get a big Cotto fight. I realize the top guys aren't excited to get in there with Williams right now. Does he need a better promoter though?

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Sure would have been nice to have seen the 2000 Mosley fight the 2005 version of Judah. I'm glad Shane might be staying at welterweight even though Mosley-Mayorga probably would have felt like a bigger fight w/ the pre-match hype only Ricardo Mayorga can provide. How did Mayorga screw up this payday?

Any interest in Williams-Quintana this weekend? I'll be curious to see if Williams can dispose of Quintana faster than Cotto did. Williams has slid under the radar since beating Margarito. Tony is still probably going to get a big Cotto fight. I realize the top guys aren't excited to get in there with Williams right now. Does he need a better promoter though?

I'm starting to think he needs to move up to 154 or even 160 and take his chances. At 147 he's a freak -- how many 6'2" guys can make 147 as easily as Williams currently seems able to? So, yeah, with his size plus his equally freakish work rate, he could dominate the division on those qualities alone. The down side is, he's just never going to get the big fights unless he's willing to wait another year or two until the top welters have knocked each other of and the field is down to one (Cotto?), who then either fights Williams or moves up to 154. If Williams moves up in weight, he doesn't bring his advantages with him, at least not to the extent that they are advantages at 147, but he does bring his resume and could probably start landing bigger money fights relatively quickly.

 

[shawnrbu]

I guess we now know what will be the best fight of the day on April 19th. Adamek and Bell are going to hookup in a cruiserweight fight in Poland. Should be a slugfest. Adamek had two excellent back-and-forth fights with Paul Briggs a couple years ago. ESPN classic may televise the Bell/Adamek fight, which would be awesome.

Friday Night Fights is going to be at Twin River in Lincoln, RI on April 4th. Joe Mesi will be headlining. Anybody thinking of going?

Speaking of Friday Night Fights, make sure to watch tonight as The Ding-A-Ling Man will be back in action. A savage knockout is just about guaranteed.

 

[BGrif21125]

Here are the Amir Khan and Andy Lee fights from last weekend, thanks to youtube.

Amir Khan

Andy Lee

 

[shawnrbu]

Good start to these next few weeks of good looking fights. Pretty big upset with Quintana UD P. Williams. I'm pleasantly surprised the judges got this one right (Harold Lederman actually had the fight 115-113 for Williams). Quintana should fight the winner of Margarito/Cintron. Cotto should fight Mayweather. And Paul Williams should move up to a higher weight class.

 

[BGrif21125]

A very impressive performance by Quintana. I'll admit, he proved me wrong, he's a much better fighter than I thought he was.

My 4 reactions from this fight:
1. Quintana is better than I thought he was.
2. Williams is nowhere near what many people thought he was, and it was way premature to label him the "next big thing."
3. What does this say about Margarito, who lost to Williams?
4. Maybe even moreso, what does this say about Cotto, who beat Quintana into a pulp.

I'm pleasantly surprised the judges got this one right (Harold Lederman actually had the fight 115-113 for Williams).

I agree. I hope Lederman hasn't gone senile on us. I normally think he does an outstanding job, but his Mayweather-Hatton card was a disaster and this one wasn't much better. I mean, it's not like Quintana's punches were the type you could fail to see, he was landing flush shots that were clear as day.

Quintana should fight the winner of Margarito/Cintron.

It's already contractually set that Margaritio/Cintron winner fights Cotto in the summer. So those guys are all out for Quintana. I'd like to see Quintana-Mosley though. Let's see if Mosley backs off Judah after this upset.

 

[BigA27]

I am glad Quintana got the decision. Although I was cheering for Williams Quintana clearly deserved to get the nod. He fought a better fight both offensively and defensively. Williams couldn't stop those looping lefts nor could he find a way to connect solidly. I think he landed 4 good straight lefts the entire fight. Quintana landed double that in the first round.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

A very impressive performance by Quintana. I'll admit, he proved me wrong, he's a much better fighter than I thought he was.

My 4 reactions from this fight:
1. Quintana is better than I thought he was.

Yeah, me too. But I gotta say, I knew he was good. He's a very polished boxer who can land sharp, accurate punches even while moving. I think he's at least a threat to anyone in the division. Even to Cotto, though I think that Cotto wins a rematch.

2. Williams is nowhere near what many people thought he was, and it was way premature to label him the "next big thing."

I've long been a Williams skeptic. I just thought that his "most feared" status was entirely the result of his freakish size (for a 147-pounder) and equally freakish workrate. But he's kind of the Doug Moe Denver Nuggets of boxing. A freewheeling offense with very little attention paid on defense. In his two signature wins, against Margarito and earlier, Walter Mathysse, he had guys who stood right in front of him and tried to trade. In that case, Williams' offene was his defense. But Quintana gave him a puzzle to solve and Williams just couldn't put the pieces together. The question was, "How do I throw 100 punches per round against a target that's never there to be hit?" As soon as Quintana threw Williams out of his game plan (which is the same for every fight: throw a million punches), It became clear that Williams had no Plan B.

I too found Harold Lederman's scorecard confounding. I gotta tell ya something -- I have to think old Harold's slipping a bit. It was a close fight, yeah. But it wasn't THAT close. I just don't see an argument for Williams winning that fight, and Williams sounded like he'd be the first to agree. He knew full well he lost. Judging by how his corner was talking to him, he knew he'd lost as early as the 9th or 10th round. Maybe it's time for HBO to get a new, younger "unofficial official scorer."

3. What does this say about Margarito, who lost to Williams?

Nothing too bad, really. All I think it says is that Margarito's the type of welterweight who's made to order for Williams. A guy who stands right there winging punches. No movement, no fancy stuff at all. Williams chews up those fighters.

4. Maybe even moreso, what does this say about Cotto, who beat Quintana into a pulp.

In my mind, there's no question that Cotto is the best welterweight in the game without the nickname "Pretty Boy." But what the win over Quintana says is that Cotto has far more -- and more valuable -- experience than Paul Williams. In addition to (as the B.A.D. crew pointed out several times tonight) his extensive, world-class amateur resume, Cotto has fought just about every type of fighter you can fight as a pro. A skilled, elusive boxer like Quintana is nothing he hasn't seen and dealt with before. Not the case with Williams who, as I said earlier, simply came in with no plan B, and he needed one tonight.

 

[BGrif21125]

Nothing too bad, really. All I think it says is that Margarito's the type of welterweight who's made to order for Williams. A guy who stands right there winging punches. No movement, no fancy stuff at all. Williams chews up those fighters.

Ya, that's a good point. Now that I think about it, last night shouldn't take away from Margarito, it just says that Margarito was the perfect opponent for Williams.

There's now a clear blueprint to beat Williams, and there are plenty of guys at 147 who are talented enough to carry it out. He should go to 154. If he's adding on 17 pounds after the weigh-in, that means he's draining himself to make 147. Plus, 154 is a complete suckfest right now, so Williams (despite all his exposed flaws) would stand a good chance against any of the beltholders there.

Williams was the big wild card among the welters, so now that he's been downgraded (or maybe removed altogether), 147 has cleared up a little.

Mayweather and Cotto are #1 and 2 without question. They could even be #1 and 2 PFP by the end of the year, depending on how some other fights go.
Mosley is #3, and is the one guy good enough to look respectable against either Floyd or Cotto.
Margarito, Cintron, Clottey, Quintana, Collazo are all really solid fighters in their prime who could be legit champs at other weights, but at 147 they would all probably lose in close fashion to Mosley, and would get picked apart and dominated by Mayweather/Cotto.
Berto now takes Williams place as the wild card, although I think his promoters are still a few fights away from putting him in with a dangerous opponent.

And then of course Zab is still around as everyone's favorite opponent.

 

[ElUno20]

Do any of you agree that losses have lost some of their impact nowadays? yeah they are setbacks but they really dont derail your career as long as you stay active. Look at Tony, he lost to Williams yet is lined up for a Cotto fight.

 

[eddiew112]

To me, the fight last night highlighted how important having a true amateur background is for a professional. I had always been skeptical of Williams because of his token amateur background, and last night confirmed my suspicions. Quintana is not a special physical talent, but he is very solid across the board because of his extensive amateur background. It looks like Williams simply never learned any defense in his entire career. If you are going to use a stance that necessitates the use of the shoulder roll and a lot of head movement, you actually need to use the shoulder roll and have amazing reflexes, or else you are going to be eating crosses throughout the fight, like Williams was last night.

That stance has become the new "in" stance in all levels of boxing, but it is overused. I see guys in the low levels of the professional ranks try to use it, and they get pounded because they do not have the skill to do it. It is damn hard. It takes years of refinement and training, because instead of learning the angles and reacting by moving your gloves, you have to move your head, while still keeping your body under control. My trainer only began to teach it to me after I had mastered the style that I used, which was similar to what Mike Tyson used.

I am getting excited for the Taylor-Pavlik fight. I am watching it with a bunch of friends who are all pitching in, so I won't feel guilty about ordering it, and it should be an early candidate for FOY. Prediction: Pavlik KO 11.

 

[BU1995Hockey]

I'm watching late night Sugar Ray Robinson films and one thing thats sticks out immediately is his footwork. Its seems so fluid and nearly perfect. Any thoughts on other reasons he was unbeatable?

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Man, I am hoping THIS report is bullshit, and since it involves Ricardo Mayorga it very well might be. But it says that Mayorga has already signed a contract to fight Cotto in July. That can NOT be true. But if it is, Miguel Cotto is going to start slipping down my PFP list due to Mayweather-like cherry-picking of opponents. After a good, tough year I'll grant him one "easy" fight, and the Alfonso Gomez fight is it. If he then goes for Mayorga next rather than the Cintron-Marg winner or one of the other legitimate, top welterweights, his status really takes a hit in my estimation.

I'm watching late night Sugar Ray Robinson films and one thing thats sticks out immediately is his footwork. Its seems so fluid and nearly perfect. Any thoughts on other reasons he was unbeatable?

Robinson was simply great in every aspect of the game, footwork, handspeed, punching power, chin, defense. The Robinson of the 1940s was simply the most complete fighter who ever lived. Hard to imagine today, but at the time of his first retirement he had a record of 131-3-1. I'll write that again: 131-3-1!

After his comeback a few years later in th mid-1950s, he was still one of the best fighters out there, but he had slipped considerably from his earlier, dizzying heights.

 

[BGrif21125]

Man, I am hoping THIS report is bullshit, and since it involves Ricardo Mayorga it very well might be. But it says that Mayorga has already signed a contract to fight Cotto in July. That can NOT be true.

It has to be bullshit. By all accounts, Cotto vs. the Margarito/Cintron winner is a done deal. I'm going to assume this is Mayorga talking out of his ass.
Let's assume Margarito wins... Arum controls both Cotto and Margarito, which means he makes all the money in that fight. Why would he have Cotto fight Mayorga instead, who is promoted by Don King of all people!

Robinson was simply great in every aspect of the game, footwork, handspeed, punching power, chin, defense. The Robinson of the 1940s was simply the most complete fighter who ever lived. Hard to imagine today, but at the time of his first retirement he had a record of 131-3-1. I'll write that again: 131-3-1!

And to add a few points about that record:

1. Included a streak of 98 wins in a row.
2. The first loss was to LaMotta, who Robinson beat on all the other 5 occasions that they fought.
3. The second loss was the final fight of a tour thru Europe where Robinson fought something like 7 or 8 times in the span of 6 weeks, in 5-6 different countries. Avenged the loss a couple months later with a KO.
4. In the third loss, he was fighting at light heavyweight, about 20 pounds above his natural weight, and was way ahead on the cards, when he collapsed from heat stroke and couldn't continue. The fight was at Yankee Stadium and it was ~105 degrees, one of the hottest days in NYC history.

I have yet to see an all-time PFP list that had anyone other than Robinson at #1.

HBO did a great documentary on Robinson several years ago, the whole thing is on youtube.
Part 1

 

[inter tatters]

The Junior Witter-Demetrius Hopkins fight on the Casamayor-Katsidis undercard is off. Not because of any money-wranglings or the usual stuff, just everybody forgot to tell Hopkins about it!

Demetrius Hopkins: Never committed to HBO fight vs. Witter

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

It has to be bullshit. By all accounts, Cotto vs. the Margarito/Cintron winner is a done deal. I'm going to assume this is Mayorga talking out of his ass.
Let's assume Margarito wins... Arum controls both Cotto and Margarito, which means he makes all the money in that fight. Why would he have Cotto fight Mayorga instead, who is promoted by Don King of all people!

Yeah, I'm sure -- at least I HOPE -- you're right. Makes sense, anyway.

Interestingly, that same linked article says that Cintron-Marg is not a done deal and that Marg is trying to line up a fight with Quintana as a backup plan. I think that's a serious case of "be careful what you wish for." I think Quintana boxes circles around Margarito and wins a clear, if not lopsided decision.

I went back and rewatched the Cotto-Quintana fight. It really wasn't the one-sided beating it's being remembered as. Granted, the fifth round was a one-sided beating that was pretty bad -- so bad that Quintana quit on his stool before round six. But the first four rounds were pretty even. I think a case could be made that Quintana won three of them, two for sure. That takes nothing away from Cotto who did what Williams never could and solved Quintana's puzzle by round five, when he staged an incredible rally and just abused poor Carlos at that point. But Cotto is smart as hell in addition to being talented. That's why Cotto is the second-best welterweight in the world -- and given Floyd's schedule this year, you'd have to say that Cotto IS the best actively competing welterweight (I view Floyd-Oscar II as a glorified exhibition, not a meaningful fight in the welterweight division). I don't think Margarito is anywhere near Cotto in terms of ring intelligence and I just can't see him having much more success with Quintana than P-Will had.

 

[BGrif21125]

Another thing about Mayorga... how in the world would he ever make 147 pounds, short of undergoing lyposuction?? He just fought at 168 against Vargas.

Interestingly, that same linked article says that Cintron-Marg is not a done deal and that Marg is trying to line up a fight with Quintana as a backup plan. I think that's a serious case of "be careful what you wish for." I think Quintana boxes circles around Margarito and wins a clear, if not lopsided decision.

I agree. Margarito would be really dumb to make that decision. Cintron is the perfect opponent for him... a guy who will just stand flat-footed and trade bombs with him. And if he beats Cintron, he'll make way, way more money against Cotto than he would against the likes of Quintana.

That's why Cotto is the second-best welterweight in the world -- and given Floyd's schedule this year, you'd have to say that Cotto IS the best actively competing welterweight (I view Floyd-Oscar II as a glorified exhibition, not a meaningful fight in the welterweight division).

That's a fair assessment. Floyd-Oscar II doesn't really hold any significance other than being a mainstream promotion.

I still think Mayweather-Cotto happens, just in '09 instead of '08 as originally hoped. If they both remain undefeated, there will simply be too much money to be made for it not to happen. If you look over the years, the biggest megafights tend to take longer than expected to come together. And the longer they get dragged out, the more time for anticipation/demand to build, and ultimately the more money to be made. Hagler-Leonard, Whitaker-Chavez, Tyson-Holyfield, Lewis-Tyson, the list goes on and on.

As I alluded to an earlier post, if it doesn't happen until '09, there's a chance by that point that they're not just the two best welters, but also the two top guys PFP. #1 vs #2 PFP has happened only about twice in the last 30 years or so, both guys would make $10-15 million if that came together.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Looks like Carlos "Not the Former Red Sox First Baseman" Quintana really did well for himself with his win over Paul Williams on Saturday. He is now being looked at as the May 31 PPV opponent for Shane Mosley, which I'm sure by Quintana's standards would be a serious payday. And a pretty good fight, though I think Shane's got too much speed. plus power, and probably stops Carlos sometime in the 8th or 9th. Remember, that's the PPV date that was first supposed to go to Ricardo Mayorga, then Shane was going fight Zab Judah. But a Quintana fight makes the most sense for Mosley because, assuming he does win, it gives him a belt to play around with. That makes some great matchups -- Mayweather-Mosely; Cotto-Mosley II -- much more likely. Of course if Shane loses to Quintana, he probably retires.

The one wrench in the works is that Antonio Margarito is Quintana's mandatory challenger and the WBO has given Marg 5 days to make up his mind. If Marg goes ahead and fights Cintron, he loses his mandatory position, which then goes to Mosley. If both Marg and Mosley pass, the #1 slot goes to someone named Michael Jennings. So I have to think that Lou DiBella, Quintana's promoter, will dod everything he can to make sure one of the two big matchups happen.

Of course, if Margarito fights Cintron and wins, that also gets him a belt. And frankly, I think he's got a much better shot against Cintron than against Quintana, who could make Marg look silly in there.

 

[BGrif21125]

Fwiw, this report is claiming that Margarito has made up his mind and will go ahead with the Cintron fight.

 

[BGrif21125]

I am getting excited for the Taylor-Pavlik fight. I am watching it with a bunch of friends who are all pitching in, so I won't feel guilty about ordering it, and it should be an early candidate for FOY. Prediction: Pavlik KO 11.

I have to go with Pavlik as well. When one guy wins the first fight by a resounding KO, it's awfully hard to pick against him in an immediate rematch.

Taylor's only had 4 1/2 months to get over the memory of being knocked nearly unconscious in the corner. That's a big mental thing to get over in a very short amount of time. He's still a live underdog, and he did have Pavlik badly hurt in Round 2 of the first fight, but you can't like Taylor's chances.

I also don't like that Taylor seems to be inventing excuses to convince himself that things will be different. He keeps saying the extra 6 pounds will help, but I think the jump from 160 to 166 helps Pavlik just as much as Taylor.
Taylor also keeps saying that he wasn't focused and/or prepared for the first fight, but I think that's all BS too, he looked like he was in great shape for the first fight and looked very well-prepared. He just got beat by a better fighter.

 

[ElUno20]

Did any of you see the weigh in? I know it means squat but Taylor is in the best shape I've ever seen him in. I still like Pavlik but I'm fearful of Taylor going in there and just trying to not get knocked out. We've seen that have plenty in the past and it provides for boring boxing.

 

[Montana Fan]

I put it at 70-30 that Taylor is gonna knock Pavlik out. Taylor had him in the last fight and will have to get to him early again but I think he's gonna finish the job this time. If Taylor doesn't get him early I can see Pavlik getting Taylor late again. Pavlik's jab and right cross are very good and he is very consistent with them. I'm looking forward to this fight.

 

[shawnrbu]

I still like Pavlik but I'm fearful of Taylor going in there and just trying to not get knocked out. We've seen that have plenty in the past and it provides for boring boxing.

This is my expectation for the fight. I think Taylor will stink up the joint and rely on the cards. It's also mathematically impossible for Taylor to lose a decision once it goes to the cards. I hope I'm wrong and that it's a fight of the year candidate with Pavlik knocking Taylor out again.

 

[BGrif21125]

Just a heads-up, ESPN360 will be showing the pre-PPV undercard fights from 7-9 pm.

Is 360 free or do you have to subscribe like Insider?

I still like Pavlik but I'm fearful of Taylor going in there and just trying to not get knocked out. We've seen that have plenty in the past and it provides for boring boxing.

That's a legit concern. But the one thing that makes this less likely is that I don't think Taylor is skilled enough defensively to just survive for 12 rounds.

For example, in Barrera-Pacquiao II a few months ago, Barrera just went into complete survival mode, just trying to make it thru 12 with no real intention of winning, but Barrera was such a smart technician that he knew how to survive and avoid punches. I'm not sure Taylor can do that. I think the only way Taylor can keep Pavlik off him is by landing his own punches.

 

[BigA27]

Pavlik will smash Taylor again.

Taylor is a flawed fighter and is custom made for Pavlik. Taylor keeps his left hand far too low to stop Pavlik's surprisingly powerful jab. Once that jab starts landing regularly that hammer of a right hand will soon follow. Taylor will have his moments but Pavlik will put him to sleep again.

 

[mrcleanwell]

I didn't see the whole match but the second fight looked pretty brutal. Both guys were very aggressive and going all out.

 

[bsj]

Pavlik won. Nice.

 

[Lanternjaw]

A pretty nice good fight... can't ask for much better when throwing down $49.95. The two super flyweight bouts on the undercard were far superior, but the Taylor/Pavlik bout was more exciting for the consumer.

I was surpised it went the distance. Both fighters had very legitimate "puncher's chances" versus each other based on what we saw in thier first meeting... I was surprised this one didn't end inside of 4 rounds. Regardless, the effective pressure throughout the entire bout -- and the Pavlik jab -- controlled the fight for Kelly Pavlik. I thought Taylor stole 2 of the first 4 rounds on late round 'excited' combinations, but this fight wound up being a case of slow and steady winning the race. Pavlik simply outworked Taylor. Still.. both fighters should be lined up for good money fights, and if they both continue to stand their ground like they've done these first two fight s then they'll both please the boxing consumer. Thoroughly enjoyable all-around card from HBO PPV. Probably not much of a money-maker for them but a great night of boxing nonetheless.

 

[BGrif21125]

I watched the fight this afternoon. I didn't take the time to score it round-by-round, but I thought Pavlik won a close, but clear decision. 7-5 sounds right, 8-4 would be understandable.

Pavlik didn't land the big flush shots that he landed in the first fight, but he was consistent and active, and he outworked Taylor in enough rounds to earn the decision.

While Taylor lost, I thought he made a very respectable showing. Usually when a fighter gets knocked out, he does one of two things in the rematch. Either he gets knocked out even faster, or he retreats into a shell and just tries to survive for 12 rounds. Taylor did neither, he fought a discplined fight and fought to win. He just couldn't match Pavlik's activity level enough to win the majority of the rounds, and he couldn't land the one big punch that could change the fight. But Taylor fought well. He proved that while he is flawed, he does have guts. I felt bad for Taylor, he almost seemed like he was ready to cry in the postfight interview. I must be turning into a softy.

As for Taylor's future, I'm guessing he moves to 168. I'm not sure he can be a champ there (with or w/o Calzaghe), but he can be a legit contender there. And there are a lot of entertaining fights at that weight. Taylor-Miranda, Taylor-Green, Taylor-Kessler, I'd be interested in any of those fights.

As for Pavlik, he's supposed to fight in June at MSG against either Duddy or Trinidad. I'm a full-fledged Trinidad fanboy, so I'd like to see Tito get one last shot at the middleweight title in New York. However, I have serious doubts about his ability/desire to make 160 pounds, so Duddy might end up being the opponent instead. Assuming Pavlik beats Trinidad/Duddy, it'll be interesting to see where he goes. 160 is thinning out in terms of "name" fighters, so if Pavlik wants the big paydays, he might have to bail from 160 and head to 168. Since the middleweight title is historically one of boxing's most prized possessions, and 168 is historically one of the worst divisions, it'd be pretty ironic for a middleweight champ to bail to 168 in search of big names. But that's how things are laid out right now.

Finally, I will say that while Pavlik is clearly the #1 guy at 160, I'm not sure I ever see him being a Top 5 PFP guy. What truly separates the top tier of fighters is speed, and I'm not sure he's fast enough to ever reach that type of elite level. His less-than-elite speed combined with a straight-ahead style means he'll always be easy to hit, and that catches up with you at some point. But he could definitely be a ~Top 10 PFP-type fighter and he has a crowd pleasing style and personality.

 

[shawnrbu]

From what I just read, Pretty Boy Floyd just appeared on a WWE PPV and hit the Big Show with two or three legit (but scripted obviously) punches and busted his nose and face. Anybody catch this? I'm guessing it'll make SportsCenter.

 

[BGrif21125]

From what I just read, Pretty Boy Floyd just appeared on a WWE PPV and hit the Big Show with two or three legit (but scripted obviously) punches and busted his nose and face. Anybody catch this? I'm guessing it'll make SportsCenter.

Word is that he's also going to be in a tagteam match at Wrestlemania. I'm not sure when that is, I lost track of wrestling at Wrestlemania VI.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Been traveling but finally got to watch Pavlik-Taylor last night. Good fight! Not an all-time classic, but a solid, exciting, well-fought contest by both men. I had it 115-113 for Pavlik who really took it out of Taylor with that body shot against the ropes in the 11th. That pretty much finished Taylor's effort for the night and let Pavlik take the final two rounds rather easily, which to me was the fight. I had it a draw after 10.

But there were some close rounds earlier that could have reasonably gone to Taylor, so I can't dispute anyone who had the fight a draw or had Taylor winning a 115-113 decision.

To me, though this was a well-fought affair by both men and Taylor, if he continues his career (which I'm not sure he will; he always seemed to lack enthusiasm and this loss was visibly disheartening to him), comes out if it with more respect than he earned in any of his controversial victories, the story of the fight was Pavlik's clear vulnerabilities. He showed great toughness and heart. And we always knew he could be hit. But in this fight, Taylor executed a much more sophisticated game plan than pretty much anyone Pavlik has fought and Pavlik never completely solved the puzzle. He did enough to win, obvioulsy and in THE end -- even without a knockout -- the fight came down to his power. But I couldn't help wondering what Joe Calzaghe must have been thinking watching this fight, which I'm sure he was, somewhere. A Pavlik-Calzaghe fight at 168 would be a big money fight, but based on what I saw last night, Pavlik would be easy pickings for Calzaghe.

Maybe latter this year, after Pavlik disposes of John Duddy, we'll find out -- assuming Calzaghe can solve the puzzle that is Bernard Hopkins!

 

[BGrif21125]

I'm interested in seeing the Joe Louis documentary on Saturday. I don't know nearly as much about Louis as I should, and HBO generally does a great job on documentaries. The Ray Robinson one they did several years ago was really good, the Ali-Frazier one was great, and the Legendary Nights episodes were all good too.

I think Klitschko blows out Ibragimov, btw. Mid-round knockout.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I'm interested in seeing the Joe Louis documentary on Saturday. I don't know nearly as much about Louis as I should, and HBO generally does a great job on documentaries. The Ray Robinson one they did several years ago was really good, the Ali-Frazier one was great, and the Legendary Nights episodes were all good too.

I think Klitschko blows out Ibragimov, btw. Mid-round knockout.

I'm expecting to be blown away by the Louis doc. I know a little about Louis, but there's a lot more to know. From what even I know, he led a fascinating life and of course was arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time. Certainly one of the three or four greatest. And as the promos point out, he was "Jackie Robinson before Jackie Robinson." Can't wait for this one. HBO's sports docs almost never misfire. They are the gold standard.


I'm with you on this Saturday's fight. Ibragimov's a tough cookie and fights from odd angles, so I think he'll present Klitschko with a bit of a puzzle. But ultimately, the size and power of Wlad will take over and lead to the stoppage.

EDIT: By the way, Wlad made a funny appearance on Conan O'Brien the other night. Here it is on YouTube.

 

[Ahriman]

This is an interesting strategy Steward is going for with Klitschko here. Very boring, but interesting.

Edit: Lennox Lewis is spot on. Klitschko needs to double up the jab and then unload.

Edit #2: Lampley learned what a check hook is a few months ago and now it's the only punch we'll hear about for the next 5 years.

 

[BGrif21125]

I can appreciate a great jab and a slow tactical fight as much as anyone, but that was a pretty boring 12 rounds. Klitschko landed an average of 3 power punches per round. THREE.

Fwiw, I thought Ibragimov did give it his best shot, his best just wasn't nearly good enough.

The heavyweights have always been by far my least favorite weight class. Tonight did nothing to change my mind. Give me the guys between 122-147 anyday of the week instead.

Bring on Marquez-Vazquez III. I'm guessing they'll bypass Wlad-Ibragimov in terms of entertainment by the midway point of Round 1.

 

[Freddy Linn]

Not a massive sweet science fan, though I did sell McNeeley both cognag and various apparatus for smoking narcotics in Saugus years ago. Just had to say, off of BGrif's comment above, that the Boom Boom Mancini ESPN Classic, which I have now seen three times, is absolutely outstanding. Round 1 versus Arturo Frias is like Rocky IV in terms of punches landed. Mancini was Wide World of Sports in the early '80s, and as a little kid it was the thing to see. I so wish boxing was still like that - both seen on a national broadcast in the afternoon and seen through the prism of an 8 year old.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I can appreciate a great jab and a slow tactical fight as much as anyone, but that was a pretty boring 12 rounds. Klitschko landed an average of 3 power punches per round. THREE.

Fwiw, I thought Ibragimov did give it his best shot, his best just wasn't nearly good enough.

The heavyweights have always been by far my least favorite weight class. Tonight did nothing to change my mind. Give me the guys between 122-147 anyday of the week instead.

Bring on Marquez-Vazquez III. I'm guessing they'll bypass Wlad-Ibragimov in terms of entertainment by the midway point of Round 1.

I have to agree -- and I'll add that I thought that the HBO announcers, particularly Kellerman and Lampley, were being WAY too charitable to Klitschko. I can understand this fight going to a decision if Ibragimov had been fighting, as Lampley rather incredibly suggested, "just to survive." But he wasn't. Though of course he came nowhere close to winning the fight (I had it 9-3, or 117-111 for Klitschko), I thought Ibragimov gave a pretty good showing for himself in there. He was trying to win throughout the whole fight and more importantly, trying to make it a fight all night long. Emanuel Steward told Klitschko, "he's there to be knocked out," and that was exactly right. But Klitschko in his interview with Kellerman basically admitted that he was afraid to go for it, saying that if he threw the right and missed, he left himself open for Ibragimov's counterpunch. Be that as it may, if you're the premier heavyweight in the world fighting in the first unification bout in almost a decade, you've got to have a little more self-confidence than that. Ibragimov never appeared the least bit afraid of Klitschko, but Klitschko was (pretty much by his own admission) afraid of Ibragimov. And I thought that for the heavyweight champ's main weapon to be a somewhat effeminate slapping gesture, as Klitschko wasdoing with his left hand, was at the very least, not a worthy tactic.

So, this seems pretty odd to say about a guy who just dominated a fight, but I was utterly unimpressed with Klitschko tonight and I thought he gave a hugely disappointing performance. I think the boxing press and public will have the same reaction overall, regardless of Lampley and Kellerman's excuse-making. So what does he do to redeem himself? Well, first of all (and I doubt this will happen, unfortunately) he needs to get back in the ring no later than June. Povetkin is supposed to be his IBF mandatory, so take it. And knock Povetkin out. No pussyfooting around.

Then, tell your gimp-ass brother to take a hike, and challenge the Maskaev-Peter winner, who I think will be Peter, in September. If Klitschko can knock out Sam Peter, I think he'll have regained the prestige that he lost in this fight. Finally, fight one last time in 2008, in December. Not sure who the opponent would be then, but if Klitschko can score one more definitive KO in 2008, he'll have fought four times, won by KO three and this stinker tonight will be just footnote. So now it's up to him. He's his own promoter and HBO has a lot invested in him, so between the two of them, make it happen!

 

[BGrif21125]

But Klitschko in his interview with Kellerman basically admitted that he was afraid to go for it, saying that if he threw the right and missed, he left himself open for Ibragimov's counterpunch. Be that as it may, if you're the premier heavyweight in the world fighting in the first unification bout in almost a decade, you've got to have a little more self-confidence than that. Ibragimov never appeared the least bit afraid of Klitschko, but Klitschko was (pretty much by his own admission) afraid of Ibragimov.

Ya, what you describe here is what really bothered me about Wlad's performance. It would be completely understandable for Wlad to be overly-cautious if he were fighting an opponent with explosive punching power, like Sam Peter for example. But this was Sultan Ibragimov, who has no punching power whatsoever!!

I've defended plenty of fighters over the years (Mayweather probably being the clearest example) who have been criticized for safety-first performances, but those fighters have generally fought cautiously against opponents who were much bigger and stronger. What made Wlad's performance so disappointing is that he fought cautiously against a feather-fisted opponent that he towered over physically. In some ways, it was reminiscent of Jermain Taylor's brutal performance last year against Cory Spinks.

I think the boxing press and public will have the same reaction overall, regardless of Lampley and Kellerman's excuse-making.

I thought Lampley/Kellerman last night showed the classic conflict of interest faced by HBO announcers. On one hand, they were probably as bored as we were, but OTOH, they didn't want to criticize an HBO fighter that they're going to need to promote/market again 3-4 months from now. They didn't want to be too critical, because they need to convince the public that Wlad is worth tuning in for when he fights again on HBO.

On another note, HBO/Arum couldn't have been happy with Duddy's performance. I know it's bad to judge a fight off a short clip of highlights, but from what I saw, Duddy sure looked like dogshit. I mean, he got completely busted up by an opponent I've never heard of. It's too bad Trinidad can't make 160, because as old and washed-up as he may be, he's still a better fighter than Duddy.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I thought Lampley/Kellerman last night showed the classic conflict of interest faced by HBO announcers. On one hand, they were probably as bored as we were, but OTOH, they didn't want to criticize an HBO fighter that they're going to need to promote/market again 3-4 months from now. They didn't want to be too critical, because they need to convince the public that Wlad is worth tuning in for when he fights again on HBO.

True enough, and the HBO announcers have long been accused of homering for the "house fighter," whether it was Oscar De La Hoya, Jermaine Taylor or whoever. But there have got to be more creative ways to call a fight like last night's without being a homer, yet still fulfilling their functions as HBO employees. And as an aside, there are few more solid, professional sportscasters than Lampley and I don't think he sees himself as a shill for anyone. But I do think he's an emotional kind of guy (which shows on the air) and that he develops a certain personal affection for the fighters he sees frequently, and those are the HBO contract fighters -- at least the god-natured ones (I don't think he has much love for Bernard Hopkins, for example). I think in his case, that's what clouds his commentary. In Kellerman's case, who knows what he's thinking half the time. On the one hand, I admire his knowledge and his honesty. On the other hand, I think he's rooted in the mentality of a sports talk radio host (which he is), always feeling like he has to throw out a strong opinion on everything just for the sake of keeping the show going.

Anyway, on last night's fight, why not just call it as what it is -- a stinker -- and set up a storyline of Wlad's "redemption," thus creating suspense over whether he can knock out his next opponent? Better that than repeating about two dozen times that he's "pitching a shutout" and "dominating with his jab," as if those things were something we should be excited about. Lennox Lewis was the only one who saw Klitschko's performance for what it was, but he's either too weak an analyst or too nice a guy to make a strong point of it.

On another note, HBO/Arum couldn't have been happy with Duddy's performance. I know it's bad to judge a fight off a short clip of highlights, but from what I saw, Duddy sure looked like dogshit. I mean, he got completely busted up by an opponent I've never heard of. It's too bad Trinidad can't make 160, because as old and washed-up as he may be, he's still a better fighter than Duddy.

I watched a bunch of Duddy's fights on ESPN and ShoBox before he became cash-cow for his promoter's indie pay-per-view business and I always thought he was a B-minus fighter at his best. There's no questioning his work ethic or his heart. But his technique is pretty elementary and his defense is nil. It may sound sadistic, but the best news of the night was that grotesque cut over Duddy's left eye (that gash looked to be about the width of my palm; if it were any wider his brains would have been visible). I mean, I wouldn't wish a cut like that on anyone, but it does mean that his June fight with Pavlik is off and that's good news both for boxing and for Duddy. I truly feared for Duddy's safety in that fight. If Pavlik couldn't dispose of Duddy within three rounds, I'd say that Pavlik needs to go back to the drawing board because that would be as good as a loss in my eyes. Duddy-Pavlik is the type of fight that state boxing commissions were created to prevent.

 

[Lanternjaw]

Re: the conflict of interest HBO commentators have in being critical of the "house" fighters. This is probably where I miss Larry Merchant the most... he generally made it a point to stick his own jab at the house fighter if he wasn't living up to the pre-fight hype.

Last night's fight was a bore-fest, no doubt. Ibragimov seemed far more willing to exchange than the much bigger Ukrainian and Steward was 100% right to be getting all over him. By round 10 I was hoping like hell that Sultan would catch him on the chin with one of those reckless overhand lefts. Its disgraceful to the heavyweight division to see a guy with Wlad's size, power, reputation and boxing tools fighting scared or overly cautious on the sports biggest stage, in the division's biggest fight in a decade, and in fornt of a house packed with his own supporters. I thought it very telling that during the post-fight interview the crowd saw right through his charity deflections and continued to voice their disappointment.

 

[Lanternjaw]

re: Duddy.

I wished they had shown the Duddy fight instead of the replay of Pavlik/Taylor. From the clips we saw and from the live action we saw of the fight as it took place in the background during the panel discussion before the Pavlik/Taylor replay, it looked to be a far more exciting bout than the main event.

 

[Ahriman]

Re: the conflict of interest HBO commentators have in being critical of the "house" fighters. This is probably where I miss Larry Merchant the most... he generally made it a point to stick his own jab at the house fighter if he wasn't living up to the pre-fight hype.

Last night's fight was a bore-fest, no doubt. Ibragimov seemed far more willing to exchange than the much bigger Ukrainian and Steward was 100% right to be getting all over him. By round 10 I was hoping like hell that Sultan would catch him on the chin with one of those reckless overhand lefts. Its disgraceful to the heavyweight division to see a guy with Wlad's size, power, reputation and boxing tools fighting scared or overly cautious on the sports biggest stage, in the division's biggest fight in a decade, and in fornt of a house packed with his own supporters. I thought it very telling that during the post-fight interview the crowd saw right through his charity deflections and continued to voice their disappointment.

I liken Wlad's entire boxing career to Lebron James first two years in the NBA. He doesn't realize that he's bigger, stronger, smarter and, in most cases, faster than everyone he faces. Lebron figured it out and can't be stopped. I think it's too late for Wlad, though.

I didn't hear much, if any, booing during the post-fight. Kellerman was pretty eager to do away with the charity talk and have Wlad explain his turd of a performance.