SOSH Running Dogs

TallManinOregon

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2004
605
PNW
I trained up to 40 miles per week (once) and a 21 mile Sunday Long Run... averaged 3.5 runs per week for a 22 week program (right around 30 miles per week for probably the last 6 weeks)... I got my ass kicked. It wasn't enough.
 

sass a thon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,265
drleather2001 said:
Three runs per week:

One short (3-6 miles) run where you run as fast as you comfortably can.

One medium (5-9 miles) where you run at the pace you plan to run the race.

One long (10-16) where you run 30 seconds per mile slower than your marathon pace.


The problem you will have is that, even with a long run of 18 miles, that's still 8 miles left to go, and it will be the hardest 8 miles you have ever run. Running multiple times per week trains you to run on tired muscles to maximize efficiency and minimize injury risk.

You'll be able to finish if you don't get hurt. Just realize that running a quick 8 mile run, without a foundation of several 30-40 mile weeks to go with it, has almost no predictive value of how you'll perform in the 26 mile race.

Slow and steady. Slow and steady.

And, frankly, if you can't prioritize the race enough to run at least three (4 is preferable) times per week, ask yourself why you are doing this. You're setting yourself up for 5 hours of misery.
 
Yes. All of this. Personally, I still think you are in for a very long day. I just don't think this is enough training this late in the game. But if you can't manage 4 runs per week, you're much better off deferring to 2016. I know deferral is an expensive option, but running a long race for which you aren't prepared (half or full) is pure misery. 
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
sass a thon said:
 
Yes. All of this. Personally, I still think you are in for a very long day. I just don't think this is enough training this late in the game. But if you can't manage 4 runs per week, you're much better off deferring to 2016. I know deferral is an expensive option, but running a long race for which you aren't prepared (half or full) is pure misery. 
Deferral is not an option. Failure is not an option. I'm with Leather. Getting with his program immediately.
 

Marceline

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
6,441
Canton, MA
Absolutely agree on the training for fueling. That is tremendously important and everyone is different so you will need to experiment and find out what works.
 
One thing I would also add that really helps a lot if you are coming into a race like that undertrained, which you will be, is do a walk run at periodic intervals instead of just running until you can't run any more. For example, walk 1-2 minutes every time you hit a mile marker. It really helps a lot in these types of situations. The key is doing it right from the start of the race even when you don't feel you need it and you still feel fresh.
 

sass a thon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,265
drleather2001 said:
I tweaked my left achilles on my long run yesterday.  It was sore at about mile 10 and I ran the remaining 10 just fine, although going up hill caused it to ache just a little.
 
It doesn't hurt when I walk, although when I press off to go up stairs it's a little sore.  It also clicks a bit from time to time.
 
Any tips?  From reading other forums, it appears ice, a little rest, and some foam rolling are the best sort-term measures, and that unless it gets worse I should be ok for my marathon in a few weeks.
 
Replying to two different posts, but I'm impressed and kind of amazed that you ran a 4:15 with less than average training. I could never ever do that. 
 
I've had Achilles issues for years. You need to loosen up your calves, so foam rolling them will absolutely help. Ice both your calves after foam rolling and your Achilles after your run. When I was more disciplined, I'd ice my Achilles throughout the day, in 20 minute intervals. 
 
When running uphill, my doctor advised me to make sure I was running with high knees. Shifts the focus to the glutes. But yeah, uphills frequently hurt a tiny bit more than flat surface.
 
The good news is that rest won't really help, so don't feel like you need to skip runs. If your Achilles start out stiff and then eventually feel better once you're warmed up, you're fine. If they feel much worse as your runs progress, and your walks turn into a limp, you have a more serious problem. Good luck!
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
Thanks!
 
I could totally ice my Achilles during work.  Maybe I'll do that.
 

rbeaud

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
24JoshuaPoint said:
 
Dangit i knew i should have checked back into this thread that morning.
 
Hope you had a better day than i did. Either i ate something bad or caught a virus. I didn't feel great when i woke up but i really didn't feel great starting around the second mile of the race. At first i thought it was just 'one of those days' but it increasingly developed into 'something ain't normal'. It was the worst time i've spent running in my life. I did 11 miles after work only a week before in intense heat and humidity and it was easy and fun. This was the worst. I finished and went straight home and laid down and drank water and whatever food i could get down for the next 12 hours. My face was paste white. I haven't been sick with anything in maybe two years and this came in and destroyed me.
 
So i put the Hartford Half on my to-do list and i plan to go for my goal again as well as maybe a bit faster by using the next few weeks to up the intensity.
Sorry to hear about the way it went down for you. I was mostly happy with my race. Much slower than the Gulf Beach Half one year ago, but I didn't crash like Fairfield earlier in the summer. This race makes me feel like the Wineglass Marathon in October could be enjoyable if I fuel and pace properly.

Good luck with Hartford....there's always another race! If it were not for Wineglass, I would have likely have run as work had free slots for employees.
 

24JoshuaPoint

Grand Theft Duvet
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,944
Cell Block C
It seemed like a hot day too if i recall correctly. Good to hear you did not crash.
 
Both the Wineglass and the Gulf look pretty cool i'm going to add them to the possible list for next year.
 
Good luck with Hartford....there's always another race! If it were not for Wineglass, I would have likely have run as work had free slots for employees.
 
 
Exactly! thanks man. Should be easy to beat last year; it was cold and wet and horrible.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
I'm on the Leather program. Plan is to train for 9:00 miles and day of, pace myself for 10, aiming to take a few of the easy miles below pace. Goal is to finish below 4:20, the one marathon I ran ten years ago. I should be able to do it. I was a smoker up until I started training for the last one. Haven't been since.

Not sure the convention here, but I assume nobody wants me to use this thread as a run journal, so I'll just update this post as I go along for my own benefit (unless I'm wrong and nobody minds run-by-run posting). I ran 5 at 8:15 today in the bright sunshine across the Brooklyn Bridge and up along the East River Greenway. It was fine--not crazy about running alongside the exhaust. I wonder whether it does more harm than good. I ran upstate last week and it was so much easier in the clear air--even with hills.

This was meant to be my fast-short run. So I guess next is my long leisurely run? 10 miles at 9:30 pace? I'll try to get that one Thursday.

One last thing--I picked up a Forerunner 15 to try and be more precise about this process and the pace tracking in real time is wonky to the point of being useless. Any thoughts on that?

9/15: 5 mi.   8:15/mi.  6 difficulty (1-10 scale).
9/18: 10.25  9:20/mi.  3 difficulty 
9/20: 6.7      8:33/mi.  5 difficulty
9/25: 8.0      8:37/mi.  6 difficulty
9/27: 12.0    8:43/mi.  7 difficulty
9/30: 5.0      7:55/mi.  8 difficulty
10/4: 8.0      not sure  6 difficulty
10/6: 15.25  8:38/mi.  6 difficulty
10/11: 3.6    8:31/mi.  8 difficulty
10/13: 7.25  8:29/mi.  7 difficulty
10/16: 18.0  9:22/mi.  5 difficulty
10/23: 9.1 miles 7 difficulty (this was meant to be a short 4-miler but I got lost).
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
BroodsSexton said:
I'm on the Leather program. Plan is to train for 9:00 miles and day of, pace myself for 10, aiming to take a few of the easy miles below pace. Goal is to finish below 4:20, the one marathon I ran ten years ago. I should be able to do it. I was a smoker up until I started training for the last one. Haven't been since.

Not sure the convention here, but I assume nobody wants me to use this thread as a run journal, so I'll just update this post as I go along for my own benefit (unless I'm wrong and nobody minds run-by-run posting). I ran 5 at 8:15 today in the bright sunshine across the Brooklyn Bridge and up along the East River Greenway. It was fine--not crazy about running alongside the exhaust. I wonder whether it does more harm than good. I ran upstate last week and it was so much easier in the clear air--even with hills.

This was meant to be my fast-short run. So I guess next is my long leisurely run? 10 miles at 9:30 pace? I'll try to get that one Thursday.

One last thing--I picked up a Forerunner 15 to try and be more precise about this process and the pace tracking in real time is wonky to the point of being useless. Any thoughts on that?

9/15: 5 mi. 8:15 pace. 6 difficulty (1-10 scale).
 
I'm fine if you put short summaries.  Easier to respond to.  It's not like this is a hugely active thread.
 
One thing to bear in mind is that, rule of thumb, you add about 5% effort for every 10 degrees it is above 55F.  So, if it was 80 when you ran, you're putting in about 15% more effort than you probably will on race day when it's closer to 45-55.  I wouldn't necessarily use that information to change your training, but it's something to keep in mind.  Running in cooler weather doesn't just *feel* better, it's objectively easier on your body.
 
Also:  run your long runs slower than marathon pace.  Or, certainly no faster than marathon pace.  One thing you want to do is get your body used to that speed.  Different speeds use different muscles, so running faster does not always equal an improvement in your overall time at a longer distance.  Building the speed muscles and getting your VO2 Max up is what the short runs are for.
 
Also, and just as importantly, you need to get your body used to burning fuel over a long period of time.  By running for longer (over 1:30 is optimal) periods, your body becomes more efficient at burning fuel and transitioning from glucose reserves to fat.  One of the primary goals of running long runs isn't to build speed or muscle, but to get the rest of your body used to the experience of sustained exertion.  So, in that sense, running it faster is actually a detriment, because you're cutting the body-training short.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
drleather2001 said:
 
Also:  run your long runs slower than marathon pace.  Or, certainly no faster than marathon pace.  One thing you want to do is get your body used to that speed.  Different speeds use different muscles, so running faster does not always equal an improvement in your overall time at a longer distance.  Building the speed muscles and getting your VO2 Max up is what the short runs are for.
 
Also, and just as importantly, you need to get your body used to burning fuel over a long period of time.  By running for longer (over 1:30 is optimal) periods, your body becomes more efficient at burning fuel and transitioning from glucose reserves to fat.  One of the primary goals of running long runs isn't to build speed or muscle, but to get the rest of your body used to the experience of sustained exertion.  So, in that sense, running it faster is actually a detriment, because you're cutting the body-training short.
 
That's great--thanks.  I had assumed that if I trained at a faster pace, then slowing down would give my body some relief and make things easier on the day of.  But I guess that may not be the case.  I'll trust in Leather, and pace myself accordingly on the long and mid-runs.  I'll aim for 10:00 miles on the long runs, and 9:30 on the mid-range runs. Day of, I'll aim for 9:30-10:00 miles, depending on terrain and how I'm feeling.  I often find it difficult to keep my pace down, so that's definitely something I'll need to work on so that I don't hit a wall.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
Hitting the wall is a fueling issue, not a strength issue. After 3 hours, you'll hit the wall. Practice fueling.
 

Preacher

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 9, 2006
6,412
Pyeongtaek, South Korea
Just received confirmation I got into the Tokyo marathon. Actually, I snatched a charity bib after not getting in through the lottery. But a guy in my office got in through the lottery and my wife's best friend from law school got in so I sort of had to do it. Plus, I'm only living in Asia for a year so this might be my only chance. Anyways, really looking forward to it. Race is 28 February so I have plenty of train up time.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
Got my long run in this morning.  77 degrees and sunny.  10.25 miles (3 loops of Prospect Park) at 9:19/mile.  Fueled with a no-caffeine Gu at mile 3 (30 minutes in) and mile 7.  I didn't labor at all.  It was an easy run.  Much easier than my five-miler on Wednesday.  
 
As expected, I had trouble keeping my pace down, only hitting 10:30 on the hills (the Garmin worked great this time, and looking down to see a 10:00 pace is a huge motivator...), letting the legs go on the down hills to sub-9:00 pace, and then settling around 9:15 or so on the flats.  At that pace, I'm flirting with a 4-hour marathon, which would be amazing.  I ran a half last year at 1:50, knocking a full 15 minutes off of my half time from ten years earlier, so it's theoretically possible I could get in under 4 hours with the marathon, which I did in 4:20 ten years ago.  Really I just want to finish sub-4:20, but if my mileage increases and I keep that pace, I may put a target on 4:00.
 
Also, I think the fuel made a big difference.  I pretty much never use fuel when I'm running (of course, I rarely run more than 6 miles at a time, so it's not an issue).  But I felt totally different replacing the carbs on the go.  What are the thoughts on caffeine vs. no caffeine?  I'm a coffee junkie, but it makes me nervous to be spiking myself with caffeine while running.
 
I guess I'm up next for a race-day pace 7 miles?  Is that right Leather?  Aim for 9:00 miles on that one, and see where this takes me?
 
9/18: 10.25 mi.  9:20 pace.  3 difficulty. 
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
6.7 miles (twice around Prospect Park) in 57:22, on a warm, cloudy morning -- 8:33 pace.  The GPS watch never picked up a signal, so I just ran with a timer.  I think that's why I ended up running fast (I was aiming for 9:00 miles.  Clearly, I'm not good at judging pace.)  
 
It was a challenging pace for me, though the run itself wasn't hard (if that makes sense).  I definitely felt it, and don't think I could keep it up over a long distance.  Towards the end, I started to think that aiming for 9:00 is really aggressive.  At 9:30 I would still shred my time from ten years ago.  No other huge insights this morning.
 
Tomorrow's a day off, and then a fast five-miler.  I did pretty well this week.  25 miles or so.  6 weeks to go.
 
9/20:  6.7 miles.  8:33 pace.  5 difficulty.
 

Harry Agganis

Member
SoSH Member
Been a while but I am about to start my taper for the Kansas City Marathon. This is a Boston Qualifying attempt for me. I will be 55 in 2017 so my qualifying time time is 3:40.
 
I've been training with Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathon with up to 55 miles a week with a goal of 3:30. The plan features Long Runs on Sundays and a mid mileage long run during the week with emphasis on Lactate threshold runs rather than speed training.
 
Recently I've done some Test Racing to see where I am up with the McMillan Race Pace Calculator.
 
Aug 22  5K at 21:54 First in Age Group
Sept 6 5K at 21:24 Fourth in Age Group PR
Sept 22 Half in 1:39:49 First in Age Group PR
 
All indications are good for a 3:30. Race is on Oct 17
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
10 mi.  8:37/mi.  6 difficulty.
 
Training was thrown off by Yom Kippur. I did lose some weight that day, though, so all good. (Kidding.  but it reminds me of my boss who used to donate blood every year at the blood drive, and say that he did it to help him lose weight...)
 
I missed my "fast" run, so I got 8 miles in today, figuring that getting the miles in is more important than the speed training.  I've set myself up to run 12 on Sunday.  I struggled a little bit getting going, but then cruised through to the end and tacked on an extra mile.
 
Counting this weekend, it's six weeks to race day (November 1).  So I'm aiming for a long run of 12 this weekend (9/27), 14 next weekend (10/4), 16 the weekend after that (10/11), and a final long run of 18 miles on October 18.  I'll be aiming to keep to my interim fast runs and medium runs, as well.  I guess I take the week of the 25th off (or just do a couple of light runs?)
 
Question:  I'm still struggling a bit with pace.  My natural pace seems to be between 8:30-8:45.  But I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep that up for the entire run.  And yet, when I consciously try to slow myself, it feels more labored.  Like I'm plodding along.  Should I just go with the natural pace, or do I really need to slow myself down?
 

sass a thon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,265
BroodsSexton said:
10 mi.  8:37/mi.  6 difficulty.
 
Training was thrown off by Yom Kippur. I did lose some weight that day, though, so all good. (Kidding.  but it reminds me of my boss who used to donate blood every year at the blood drive, and say that he did it to help him lose weight...)
 
I missed my "fast" run, so I got 8 miles in today, figuring that getting the miles in is more important than the speed training.  I've set myself up to run 12 on Sunday.  I struggled a little bit getting going, but then cruised through to the end and tacked on an extra mile.
 
Counting this weekend, it's six weeks to race day (November 1).  So I'm aiming for a long run of 12 this weekend (9/27), 14 next weekend (10/4), 16 the weekend after that (10/11), and a final long run of 18 miles on October 18.  I'll be aiming to keep to my interim fast runs and medium runs, as well.  I guess I take the week of the 25th off (or just do a couple of light runs?)
 
Question:  I'm still struggling a bit with pace.  My natural pace seems to be between 8:30-8:45.  But I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep that up for the entire run.  And yet, when I consciously try to slow myself, it feels more labored.  Like I'm plodding along.  Should I just go with the natural pace, or do I really need to slow myself down?
 
I can relate; I often struggle with trying to force myself to run a slower pace. But if you try to run your "natural pace" for an entire 26.2 miles, odds are pretty good that you will really regret it around mile 20. I started out slower than I wanted in my first marathon, and through 15, I was bored and itching to go faster. I started to speed up a bit starting at, I think, mile 18. Because I'd started slow, I had enough in the tank for a really strong finish. A good gauge is the halfway mark; if you're feeling even a little bit tired at mile 13, you're in trouble. Your 18 mile training run will be a helpful indicator. At what pace are you planning on doing that?
 
So yes, all of that to say - you absolutely need to start out a little bit slower than your comfortable pace. 
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
sass a thon said:
 
I can relate; I often struggle with trying to force myself to run a slower pace. But if you try to run your "natural pace" for an entire 26.2 miles, odds are pretty good that you will really regret it around mile 20. I started out slower than I wanted in my first marathon, and through 15, I was bored and itching to go faster. I started to speed up a bit starting at, I think, mile 18. Because I'd started slow, I had enough in the tank for a really strong finish. A good gauge is the halfway mark; if you're feeling even a little bit tired at mile 13, you're in trouble. Your 18 mile training run will be a helpful indicator. At what pace are you planning on doing that?
 
So yes, all of that to say - you absolutely need to start out a little bit slower than your comfortable pace. 
 
Well, it will be a test as I build to the 15+ runs.  I guess I'll plan to go out at 9:30, and if I'm doing well around mile 10 kick it up a notch for the last 5 and see if I can power through.  Boredom is definitely part of it.  I had forgotten that the biggest obstacle to training for a race like this is the amount of time it takes, and the boredom that sets in when you've been running for long periods of time.  
 

Marceline

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
6,441
Canton, MA
Harry Agganis said:
Aug 22  5K at 21:54 First in Age Group
Sept 6 5K at 21:24 Fourth in Age Group PR
Sept 22 Half in 1:39:49 First in Age Group PR
 
All indications are good for a 3:30. Race is on Oct 17
Really impressive training and race times. Good luck with qualifying! Have you run that race before, or are you familiar with the course?
 

Marceline

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
6,441
Canton, MA
BroodsSexton said:
Question:  I'm still struggling a bit with pace.  My natural pace seems to be between 8:30-8:45.  But I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep that up for the entire run.  And yet, when I consciously try to slow myself, it feels more labored.  Like I'm plodding along.  Should I just go with the natural pace, or do I really need to slow myself down?
If you want to run longer, and that pace is comfortable for you, I would run that pace, but add in frequent walk breaks. Like, every 8 minutes, or every mile (whatever is easier to keep track of) walk for 60-90 seconds. Trust me, it will help immensely.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
Joe Sixpack said:
If you want to run longer, and that pace is comfortable for you, I would run that pace, but add in frequent walk breaks. Like, every 8 minutes, or every mile (whatever is easier to keep track of) walk for 60-90 seconds. Trust me, it will help immensely.
I can't imagine doing that. I'll try it on a long run to see what it feels like, but I think the start and stop would be really annoying.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
12 mi. 8:43/mi. 7 difficulty.

Nice cool(er) weather run today. I felt sluggish to begin, and settled in around 9:00/mi pretty quickly (deliberately looking for it), then picking up the pace a bit after mile three. I'm going to aim for 15 next weekend.
 
Just looking back, I ran 12 today at :40/mi. faster than my 10.25 run last weekend.  I definitely felt this run was more difficult, but I didn't feel as great to start out, so it's hard to know whether the :40/mi. really made the difference.  Interesting, though.
 

rbeaud

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
So it looks like BQ-1:42 won't get me in the 2016 race. The BAA has refunded my entry fee, simply awaiting the official email which should come tomorrow. While I could wish to have run straighter, adding about 1/4 mile total per GPS, the killer was cramping early and hitting the wall before mile 15. Plus that 1 minute walk around mile 20 (for cramps)! This race was similar most of my long distance racing in the last year or so. One year ago I ran a fabulous half; my finishing mile was nearly my (old) 10k pace. In that race I had one GU at 7M with a some water. Relatively cool fall day as I recall. What really seems to derail my recent long distance races is (or seems to be) loss of energy. In my 20k three weeks ago, I was doing well thru 10M. And then the wall grabbed me and I promptly slowed by about 1 min/mile. Same as a half in June.

While no one would normally recommend changing things up before a race, I'm not sure how it could hurt based on the 9 months of racing. Typically I have one GU every 45 min. I've noticed that in the later miles the wall feeling leads to lack of desire for fuel/drink. This likely makes the wall worse. A few online articles suggest 30-60g/hr of carbs. I'm thinking to switch from GU (29g) to Stingers (39g) and possibly even 1.5 Stingers (60g) to max out carbs/hour. I like Stingers because they are essentially gummies! Normally, I'm hydrated enough (or think I am) to skip water until the half. When I add water it is 2-4 oz per 45 min. That said, I'm possibly too hydrated as several races required stops during the initial 3-10 miles. Nonetheless, I can "see" the color of my dehydration post-race. Again, thinking to ingest water sooner and more often than every 5M or so.

Anyone have recommendations or comments? This is problem a good topic for Kremlin Watcher if he still peruses these threads...
 

rbeaud

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
I'll keep this separate to hopefully garner replies for both questions.

This upcoming weekend is looking ugly for upstate NY: rain, wind, and humidity. Not what I wanted since my goal is BQ-5:01 to ensure a slot for 2017. Should the rain change my approach to the marathon? I just don't know if being wet exacerbates anything over the long haul. I use Body Glyd and wonder if that will wash off? I've run 5k's in the rain wearing a t-shirt and racing shorts. Will temps be a concern at slower marathon pace?

Any thoughts are appreciated.
 

sass a thon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,265
rbeaud said:
So it looks like BQ-1:42 won't get me in the 2016 race. The BAA has refunded my entry fee, simply awaiting the official email which should come tomorrow. While I could wish to have run straighter, adding about 1/4 mile total per GPS, the killer was cramping early and hitting the wall before mile 15. Plus that 1 minute walk around mile 20 (for cramps)! This race was similar most of my long distance racing in the last year or so. One year ago I ran a fabulous half; my finishing mile was nearly my (old) 10k pace. In that race I had one GU at 7M with a some water. Relatively cool fall day as I recall. What really seems to derail my recent long distance races is (or seems to be) loss of energy. In my 20k three weeks ago, I was doing well thru 10M. And then the wall grabbed me and I promptly slowed by about 1 min/mile. Same as a half in June.

While no one would normally recommend changing things up before a race, I'm not sure how it could hurt based on the 9 months of racing. Typically I have one GU every 45 min. I've noticed that in the later miles the wall feeling leads to lack of desire for fuel/drink. This likely makes the wall worse. A few online articles suggest 30-60g/hr of carbs. I'm thinking to switch from GU (29g) to Stingers (39g) and possibly even 1.5 Stingers (60g) to max out carbs/hour. I like Stingers because they are essentially gummies! Normally, I'm hydrated enough (or think I am) to skip water until the half. When I add water it is 2-4 oz per 45 min. That said, I'm possibly too hydrated as several races required stops during the initial 3-10 miles. Nonetheless, I can "see" the color of my dehydration post-race. Again, thinking to ingest water sooner and more often than every 5M or so.

Anyone have recommendations or comments? This is problem a good topic for Kremlin Watcher if he still peruses these threads...
 
Not sure if this will be true for you, but it's the lesson I learned the hard way (vomiting and nearly blacking out during two marathons). Most distance runners are almost always in a state of dehydration. In general, it's hard to stay properly hydrated when you're running such high mileage. So fast forward to race day: you skip water on the first half of the race, and by the second half, when you're dehydrated, you're taking in water, further flooding the diminishing amount of electrolytes left in your body.
 
Have you tried taking in electrolytes during a run? I'm not talking garbage like Gatorade or Powerade, but something like Nuun or Hammer? There are tons of options out there. I'd suggest trying that to see if it helps. Try it on long runs, before/after a run, etc - you may find a cadence that works for you. 
 
And yes, I think you should be sipping water/something throughout the race, not just on the back half. I like starting races with a mini water bottle. It allows me to sip at my own pace and avoid the congestion of water stops. Plus, when I toss it, I suddenly feel a bit lighter, which is a nice mental boost. 
 

rbeaud

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
sass a thon said:
 
Not sure if this will be true for you, but it's the lesson I learned the hard way (vomiting and nearly blacking out during two marathons). Most distance runners are almost always in a state of dehydration. In general, it's hard to stay properly hydrated when you're running such high mileage. So fast forward to race day: you skip water on the first half of the race, and by the second half, when you're dehydrated, you're taking in water, further flooding the diminishing amount of electrolytes left in your body.
 
Have you tried taking in electrolytes during a run? I'm not talking garbage like Gatorade or Powerade, but something like Nuun or Hammer? There are tons of options out there. I'd suggest trying that to see if it helps. Try it on long runs, before/after a run, etc - you may find a cadence that works for you. 
 
And yes, I think you should be sipping water/something throughout the race, not just on the back half. I like starting races with a mini water bottle. It allows me to sip at my own pace and avoid the congestion of water stops. Plus, when I toss it, I suddenly feel a bit lighter, which is a nice mental boost. 
Thanks Sass. Do you have UCAN out your way? For the 20k and half I had it prerace...it sat well with me and I'm leaning toward it per their instructions. That is at 90 and 30 min prior which would be double my previous race intake. The course had their electrolyte. I likely took in less than an optimal quantity based on this discussion. Again, I'm starting to think more liquids on the course will help.

I may go with the fuel belt to ensure the liquids are my choice not the Sponsors.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
5 mi., 7:55/mi., 8 difficulty.

This was a tough run for two reasons: cramps and shins. I took the pace up for the "fast" run (per the Leather training plan). I cramped at 2.5 miles in and almost didn't finish, but pushed through. Now that I'm done, my shins are barking at me for the first time. The run was unusual, too, in that I ran this afternoon (I usually run in the morning) and the weather had me feeling low energy all day (humid and warm, and cloudy like it could rain any moment). I didn't use any fuel on the run.

Any feedback? Friday will be 8-10 miles at a target of 9:15.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
What kind of shin pain?
 
If it's shin splints, they aren't going to go away anytime soon.   Typically, they come from increasing mileage too quickly.
 
I recommend you get some compression sleeves for your calves.  They helped me with mild shin splits.   That and lots of stretching (making the alphabet  in the air with my toes).
 
I would run slowly on Friday and call it off if you're still hurting after two miles.  Again, others here with more experience might differ.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,630
guam
drleather2001 said:
What kind of shin pain?
 
If it's shin splints, they aren't going to go away anytime soon.   Typically, they come from increasing mileage too quickly.
 
I recommend you get some compression sleeves for your calves.  They helped me with mild shin splits.   That and lots of stretching (making the alphabet  in the air with my toes).
 
I would run slowly on Friday and call it off if you're still hurting after two miles.  Again, others here with more experience might differ.
 
Nothing too severe, in terms of shin pain.  It was more like acute soreness after the fact.  I didn't really notice it when running, but it was a different kind of soreness than I have previously experienced once I finished.  I don't know, are they shin splints?  I'll try the compression sleeves--I saw a guy with them the other day.  But it's going to make me feel like an old dude to start wearing compression.
 
I wonder if running later in the day, and increasing the pace, led to the cramping.  Is that possible?
 

sass a thon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,265
BroodsSexton said:
5 mi., 7:55/mi., 8 difficulty.

This was a tough run for two reasons: cramps and shins. I took the pace up for the "fast" run (per the Leather training plan). I cramped at 2.5 miles in and almost didn't finish, but pushed through. Now that I'm done, my shins are barking at me for the first time. The run was unusual, too, in that I ran this afternoon (I usually run in the morning) and the weather had me feeling low energy all day (humid and warm, and cloudy like it could rain any moment). I didn't use any fuel on the run.

Any feedback? Friday will be 8-10 miles at a target of 9:15.
 
The annoying reality of running is that some runs are great and some are less so, and often there's no rhyme or reason. A great run doesn't mean you're a lock to BQ and a terrible run doesn't mean you should change anything up dramatically. 
 
As for the shin pain, it's a very common overuse injury. Stretch and ice and listen to your body. 
 

Marceline

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
6,441
Canton, MA
You're rapidly increasing mileage, and you're trying to compress a 16 week training program into 7-8 weeks. Shin splints and other pains are a normal development at this point. Make sure you're stretching a lot as noted above.
 
I would also recommend not trying to run that fast at all over the next month. You're not going to see significant speed gains at this point and you don't have a consistent mileage base for your body to be able to handle that level of effort without putting yourself at risk of injury (speaking from my own experience). Stick to the slower paced runs.
 

Spelunker

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
11,884
BroodsSexton said:
 
Nothing too severe, in terms of shin pain.  It was more like acute soreness after the fact.  I didn't really notice it when running, but it was a different kind of soreness than I have previously experienced once I finished.  I don't know, are they shin splints?  I'll try the compression sleeves--I saw a guy with them the other day.  But it's going to make me feel like an old dude to start wearing compression.
 
I wonder if running later in the day, and increasing the pace, led to the cramping.  Is that possible?
While all of this is great maintenance, the Toes Pose and counterpose at 1:30 are especially good for shin splints (something I'm prone to myself):

http://www.runnersworld.com/video/body-shop-unknot-yourself
 

fiskful of dollars

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
2,874
Charlottesville, VA
Yeah an abrupt mileage increase is a sure way to get injured. Generally, you shouldn't increase your mileage more than 10% a week. Same for intensity. Good luck!
 
I'm tapering for a HIM in 2 1/2 weeks. I feel lousy when I'm tapering. Just wanted to vent. Carry on.
 

MB's Hidden Ball

Member
SoSH Member
fiskful of dollars said:
Whenever I have tightness in my calves or Achilles I break out the compression sleeves. They are awesome.
 
I can't run without them. I have Achilles tendonitis and it makes my calfs susceptible to pulls/cramping. I don't know that the calf sleeves work, but I do know that it's generally disastrous when I don't have them on.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
I'm such a dipshit.
 
I bought new shoes (newer version of my traditional show, the Sauc Hurricane) last week and wore them on 8, 6, 4 and 3 mile runs over the past week; my last week of training/taper before my race on Sunday.
 
As I mentioned, I've been getting tight shins on my recent runs.  
 
Well, it suddenly dawns on me that the shin issue is probably because my new shoes aren't broken in and are forcing me to make a minute but impactful change in how I run, so I should go back to my old shoes (that have only about 110 miles on them).   So this morning I got up and ran 1.5 miles in my older shoes and felt fine.  I could tell that my stride just felt more natural, with a mid-foot strike.  I think the new shoes were causing me to land more on my heel and then overcompensate as my shins started flaring up, which led to other issues, and that my concern with my older shoes, which stems from them slanted slightly inward, was actually them just being molded more to how I run than a sign that they were breaking down prematurely.  
 
Lesson learned.  Don't fucking change shoes less than 2-3 weeks before a race.
 

rbeaud

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
Shoes do not require a break in period. If they hurt, it's most likely overuse as others have suggested. Do you buy a new model of the same type? Sometimes the change is enough to cause issues. I've had this just once when getting a replacement shoe.

My marathon pair had 6M on them before I ran my first.
 

TFP

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
20,380
Heading down to the Color Run tonight. I haven't run in over 2 weeks due to my foot acting up after a run, and I've spent the last week in Vegas so you can only imagine my physical condition at the moment.
 
I'm just hoping I don't fall apart, and this weather isn't helping, but I don't expect things to go well. Either way, it'll be fun at least.