SOSH Running Dogs

BleacherFan

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Jan 28, 2003
468
Tewksbury, MA
QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Jul 17 2009, 01:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2426348
I'm training for triathlon right now and running is my weakest discipline. I'll be doing sprint and Olympic-distance races (runs anywhere from 2.5 k to 5 k for the sprint races, 10 k for the Olympic distance). My endurance is good for my age and condition, and I can do a 10 k in about 50 minutes if I work hard. But I am generally a really slow runner and would gladly take advice on how I might be able to ramp up my speed for races of varying distances. I have a good plan for bike and swim training, including sprint training and time in the weight room, but am specifically seeking some information on working on improving my running times (other than simple endurance training, which I think I have under control).

Any advice for a dedicated beginner?


I've always found that increasing your weekly mileage along will make you faster in the 5/10k stuff. A friend of mine went from running 3 to 6 miles a day and cut like 3-4 minutes off his 5k time. How's your weekly mileage? I generally don't encourage track (intervals) unless you're running 25-30 miles a week consistently. There is less risk of injury - if you have a comfortable running base, go out and run some 400 meters and see how you feel. The leg turnover with the fast paces will help

Dave
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Sep 20, 2005
5,235
Orleans, MA
QUOTE (BleacherFan @ Jul 17 2009, 04:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2426651
I've always found that increasing your weekly mileage along will make you faster in the 5/10k stuff. A friend of mine went from running 3 to 6 miles a day and cut like 3-4 minutes off his 5k time. How's your weekly mileage? I generally don't encourage track (intervals) unless you're running 25-30 miles a week consistently. There is less risk of injury - if you have a comfortable running base, go out and run some 400 meters and see how you feel. The leg turnover with the fast paces will help

Dave

The frequency of running is my issue - my knees and hips don't take the pounding well, so for endurance/aerobic training I focus on cycling and swimming. I can't run more than once a week or my lower joints pack it in, which is one of the reasons I took up triathlon. I guess my question is: when I run, should I focus on stretching out the distance, or do some sprint training? There's not a magic answer here, but I need to find a way to be more competitive in the run without grinding my hips and knees out. I do both endurance and sprints in the water and on the bike, so I'm trying to find the right training regime that will help me have some extra kick in the run. Thanks.
 

Harry Agganis

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SoSH Member
Just found out about this forum.

You guys a lot faster than me. but here is my story.
49 years old never ran too much untill I reached 39. Did four marathons from 2000-2002 (best Time 3:29). Moved from San Diego to Missouri and kept up the training. Ran a half in Virginia Beach in 2004 and than screwed up my back packing up the pop-up to go home.

Got myself back up to half distance and did two in 2007. Than fell off again.

These days I'm back on the roads since mid June and am slowly ramping up the miles. Training up for a slow half in Kansas City in October.
 

rbeaud

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Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
I sort of figured out that the Hybrid Michigan was a bit much; I'll add in more "normal" speed work. Recently I found a real track about 1 mile from home (perfect w/up and c/dn distance) that should be more appropriate for interval work. Is the rule of thumb, one speed session per week? Any suggestions about gaging my progress towards the Sep sub18? I would think my next race should have a target time of 18:30 (a :30 sec improvement on the 4th race).

On the subject of races, has anyone used their Garmin and noticed it didn't add up to the race distance? I finally loaded the training tool onto the home PC. Way cool, though I don't know what it all means yet. Anywho, for that race I forgot to turn off the watch at the finish line. The tool allowed me to see when race pace dropped and it was past 3.1 miles. A friend recorded 3.19 on his Garmin. Not a big deal, though it would mean a few seconds more off my finish.

QUOTE (Harry Agganis @ Jul 21 2009, 10:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2432444
Just found out about this forum.

You guys a lot faster than me. but here is my story....`


Welcome! Speed is relavent only insofar as it may help answer training questions (mostly by Dave/Joe). Otherwise, if you are having fun running tell us your tale. Goodness knows I've been busy with my stories.
 

BleacherFan

Member
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Jan 28, 2003
468
Tewksbury, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Jul 21 2009, 07:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2433194
I sort of figured out that the Hybrid Michigan was a bit much; I'll add in more "normal" speed work. Recently I found a real track about 1 mile from home (perfect w/up and c/dn distance) that should be more appropriate for interval work. Is the rule of thumb, one speed session per week? Any suggestions about gaging my progress towards the Sep sub18? I would think my next race should have a target time of 18:30 (a :30 sec improvement on the 4th race).


So, you would be shooting for a 5k pace of 6:00 (18:36) and you haven't done much standardized track work? I would suggest starting simple with some 400s - do this workout after a nice easy 2 mile w/u. Do 8x400 (obviously if you're in the hurt tank you don't have to go all 8) @ a goal pace of 90 seconds (6:00 pace). Between each interval jog 400 meters (1 lap) around the track. This can be changed next week or in the future to include 800;s with a goal pace of 3:00 but obviously let's gauge your fitness. The HR data will be helpful also. Joe feel free to chime in but I think this might be a nice conservative workout to judge where you are.

As far as how many workouts, it really depends on the individual but for me, I like a 2nd non-track workout a week and I try to mix it up. Lately I've been doing hill sprints (10x.15 mile @ 10% grade) but I like to mix up a midweek race or a fartlek on the road where I will run 1k then take a 90 second break and then repeat... My body doesn't like two track workouts a week but everyone's different. I just wouldn;t run the same type of workout in one week - so if you do 5k pace stuff one day, do some 10k/10M pace stuff later in the week

Dave

QUOTE
On the subject of races, has anyone used their Garmin and noticed it didn't add up to the race distance? I finally loaded the training tool onto the home PC. Way cool, though I don't know what it all means yet. Anywho, for that race I forgot to turn off the watch at the finish line. The tool allowed me to see when race pace dropped and it was past 3.1 miles. A friend recorded 3.19 on his Garmin. Not a big deal, though it would mean a few seconds more off my finish.


I've always heard that the USATF verified courses are wheel measured by cutting the tangents on turns so it will never be exact depending on how you take corners,etc.
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
1,575
Chelmsford, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Jul 21 2009, 07:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2433194
I sort of figured out that the Hybrid Michigan was a bit much; I'll add in more "normal" speed work. Recently I found a real track about 1 mile from home (perfect w/up and c/dn distance) that should be more appropriate for interval work. Is the rule of thumb, one speed session per week? Any suggestions about gaging my progress towards the Sep sub18? I would think my next race should have a target time of 18:30 (a :30 sec improvement on the 4th race).

On the subject of races, has anyone used their Garmin and noticed it didn't add up to the race distance? I finally loaded the training tool onto the home PC. Way cool, though I don't know what it all means yet. Anywho, for that race I forgot to turn off the watch at the finish line. The tool allowed me to see when race pace dropped and it was past 3.1 miles. A friend recorded 3.19 on his Garmin. Not a big deal, though it would mean a few seconds more off my finish.


Not to be a wet blanket, but I think sub 18 is a little aggressive 2 months out when you just recently went from 19:15 to 18:59. I think if you run 18:30 you should be pretty pumped. Build the base over the winter and go for 18 next year. I could be wrong, maybe starting some speed work now will give you the extra boost to take 60 seconds off your PR.

60 seconds in a 5k is cutting 4.8 seconds off of every 400m. To put it another way that's 21 meters every 400m of race distance if I've done my calculations right. You've made some huge improvements in the last year, I just wonder if you shoot for 18:30 you might have a better race.

If you find that doing 1200m runs at 5:45/mi pace with 2 mins rest is not wiping you out, then you might be capable of going lower. That doesnt mean turning each interval into a race-type effort in order to complete it.

I ran my garmin over miles 4-14 of the Baystate marathon a couple weeks back and it measured 9.98. Individual miles varied, some were .98, others 1.01, but overall it was very close. I was able to run the tangents because I could just stay on the right side of the road. Also, for a full race I've read organizers are encouraged to add 0.5% to 1% (seems like a lot) to ensure it isnt too short. 18 months ago I wrote and email to the race director at the Hyannis Marathon to ask about the course length of the half marathon. I said it seemed long, he said it in fact was by about .2 miles, but that the marathon was exact. It had to do with where the finish line was placed for each race.
 

ichirob4ichiro

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Oct 30, 2006
1,987
Hopkinton, NH
Nate Jenkins-- "Nobody Hits Harder Than Life"
Has anyone else read the most recent blog entry of local legend Nate Jenkins? Holy crap did I found it incredibly inspiring. My heart was beating so fast-- It got me the most excited about running that I have been in the past two years.

The message really hits home for me, as I am still trying to bounce back from a seemingly never ending circle of foot injuries, and I am sure many on here can identify with the "never stop pushing" philosophy that Nate has become epic for. Enjoy.

QUOTE
http://www.flotrack.org/blogs/blogger/nate...arder-than-life

“The world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s a very mean and nasty place and I don’t care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, nobody is going to hit as hard as life. But it ain’t how hard you hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. That’s how the wining is done!”- Rocky Balboa in Rocky Balboa (Aka Rocky 6)

I think we all have our ups and downs in sports as well as life. I think running in particular is a perfect analogy for life. In my case running and life have pretty much become one intermingled thing. I tend to be a streaky person in terms of emotions, luck and generally how I’m doing in the race of life. A Rilo Kiley song I love says “sometimes when you’re on, you’re really f#*@ing on and your friends sing along and they love you. But the lows are so extreme the good seems f#*@ing cheap and it teases you for weeks in its absence.” This tends to be how I feel about my luck as well as my emotional state. When I’m “on” everything seems to go my way: I’m the life of the party and I get every possible advantage, I feel as though I am a man of destiny and all the forces of heaven and earth are making my path for me. It’s during times like that when I say things are “turning up Jenkins.” But when it turns, and it always does, the opposite is just as true. I feel I can’t catch a break to save my life. Everything that can go wrong will go wrong from the big things to the smallest inconvenience. I am a man who has had some fights with what Churchill called the “black dog” and when the chips are down I often have trouble getting out from under him.

I’ve been down a lot more than up lately. Life has been taking its shots and as Rocky says “ain’t nobody that hits harder then life.” But like the Japanese say the greatest honor is not in triumph but in getting up every time you are knocked down and Rocky would agree with that as well.

We all have our tests we need pass; we all face uphill battles we do not believe we can fight. We see the challenge before us and know we are not equal to the task, we aren’t talented enough, we aren’t strong enough, we aren’t smart enough, or we don’t have the support to get it done. But the true measure of our success is not in triumphing, it is in truly giving our all in the attempt, in never giving in no matter how bad we want to. No matter how impossible it may seem or actually be.

It’s been nearly two years since I ran a decent marathon. In that time I have had ups and downs. But man, I’ll tell you that not running a decent marathon has dominated the landscape of my psyche. Since the ‘ups’ of being selected to run for the USA in the world championships and beginning to get ahead of the hamstring problem that had been largely responsible for my inability to race well over the long distances, my distances, I have been knocked back to my knees. It is the same old story, one injury and set back becomes another, first my SI joint inflamed so that even sitting, laying down or driving a car was excruciating, then the ITB flared from working out too aggressively on the Alter G. The whole time I was spiraling down into worse and worse anemia, not knowing why or how. Heck I was taking iron. Also I got the run around because a small infection in my system threw off my blood work and sent the dr’s in the wrong direction for a bit. In the mean time normal life problems were kicking up. The car broke down, twice, the bills from the Dr’s added up to more than 10% of what I’ve made in the last year, before taxes. The bill collectors were calling, the races were awful so no money was/is coming in, I was sleeping 12 hours a night and waking up exhausted, even easy runs were leaving me crushed at the end of the day. But it will swing, it has to swing. Besides, stopping and not moving forward never did anyone any good. The key is to always move forward because just when you can’t take anymore you may be one more step or one more small climb from breaking the tide and having things swing in your favor. Quitting before you’re done is never the answer. This is life. It’s like swinging on a trapeze without a net below you so no matter how bad those forearms and fingers are screaming you need to hold on, not for as long as you can but for as long as you have to. As Winston Churchill said “It is not always enough to do our best, sometimes you must do what is required.”

Now I feel as though after a long night I can see the first signs of light on the horizon. I once read a great story, most likely apocryphal, about Herb Elliot that both speaks to the fitness and will of the great champions and to this situation very well. It seems Percy Cerutty, Elliott’s legendary coach sent Herb to do a hard run in the sand dunes of Portsea as he often did. While Herb was running, Cerutty, very fit but already in his 60’s, went for a hard swim in the bay. It seems that there was, unbeknown to either of the men, a storm passing by out at sea that caused the tides to be much stronger than normal. Swimming by the mouth of the bay Cerutty was caught in this powerful outgoing tide and fight as he might he was being sucked out to sea. It was at this time that a very tired Elliott arrived back on the beach, and scanning the water he saw his friend and mentor fighting futilely against the sea. He leaped into the ocean and reached Cerutty as he was just going under. Elliott put the small man, limp from exhaustion under his arm and began to swim against the tide. Still they were being sucked out. He swam harder but at his best all-out effort he found all he could do was hold their position against the out rushing tide. Failure was assured, Death himself stood on their shoulders. Yet somehow Herb refused to think, refused to feel pity, refused to quit, he was like the small bird in DH Lawrence’s poem who felt no pity for itself. He fought not because he could win but because he had one more stroke, one more kick in him and so this epic battle continued. Death was forced to wait for the inevitable as Elliott would not give in to the tide until his massive heart and his powerful muscles failed him. He the man in the mind, the soul in the body would not quit, the flesh and blood would have to fail. For time unmeasured the battle continued with no spectators, except of course the specter Death, until the cold blue abyss at last yielded and the tide shifted in. Elliott now moved forward and dragged both himself and his coach to the shore where they lay barely alive, but alive.

I now can feel the stirring around my feet and arms of the tide shifting. Unlike the Great Herb Elliot I have not been alone in my struggles, but so rarely are any of us truly alone. The unwavering support of my girlfriend, Gary and many of the runners who I talk to daily in person and through the internet. As well as the more materially tangible support of use of the alter G treadmill from the sports spa, affordable chiropractic and body work, as well as some incredible free fresh veggies from a local runner who’s day job is as a farmer. It is thanks to this support that I have turned the corner and stopped feeling bad for myself and started getting back to where I should be in terms of fitness and performance.

I have begun to run slightly faster on the workouts, no new injuries have cropped up; the old ones have begun to ebb. The fight is not over, even as things seem to slowly turn in my direction nearly every run is a fight. On my long run Monday within the first 30 minutes I had to jump into the woods and a porto-potty for, how should I say… emergency relief, a gift from the large doses of Iron I’m taking to get past the anemia, and I was stung on the forehead by a hornet. Nothing that will kill you but enough that when you’re already down it sure makes you feel like you’re fighting against the current. But still, the run got done and with each day the fight to move forward does not feel as hopeless. It is no longer without any reward, without any sign of hope. I am moving ever so slowly forward, the hour is late, probably too late, but I have overcome the ledge I couldn’t imagine coming over and I am that much stronger mentally and physically for having faced my own weakness. I have stared into the darkness of a moment of weakness and the darkness flinched first.

What it takes to crack each of us is a personal thing, not a steady set thing, but instead a complex equation of all the factors of a given moment and challenge but what is the same is that for each of us the measure of us as humans isn’t outside accolades, arbitrary times, pay checks or victories. The measure of each of us is in standing up one more time even though there is no way we could, in giving that full effort that is beyond what can be seen from the outside and only known to us in the grey of our innermost self. I have lasted one day more than I thought I would and now I move forward to compete for my country on the second biggest stage available, where just to compete is the biggest honor of my life, the greatest gift I have ever received and the most defining accomplishment of my life. I have but a few weeks to drag my battered body to that starting line but now I know I will drag it there in better shape than it is today. I will drag it there with fight in my belly and hopefully in my legs and lungs as well.

That is my two cents for the day but I implore you to keep up your own good fight and I hope that knowing that we all face these challenges will give you more strength to take one more step forward to push for one more second the next time you’re up against the immovable object or the irresistible force. Because that one more second may be the penultimate one that swings the weight of the world from being against you to being for you but even if it isn’t that step was still worth it if only for the beauty of a person going beyond their limit in the face of the impossible.
 

rbeaud

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Jul 22 2009, 01:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2435269
Not to be a wet blanket, but I think sub 18 is a little aggressive 2 months out when you just recently went from 19:15 to 18:59. I think if you run 18:30 you should be pretty pumped. Build the base over the winter and go for 18 next year. I could be wrong, maybe starting some speed work now will give you the extra boost to take 60 seconds off your PR.

60 seconds in a 5k is cutting 4.8 seconds off of every 400m. To put it another way that's 21 meters every 400m of race distance if I've done my calculations right. You've made some huge improvements in the last year, I just wonder if you shoot for 18:30 you might have a better race.

If you find that doing 1200m runs at 5:45/mi pace with 2 mins rest is not wiping you out, then you might be capable of going lower. That doesnt mean turning each interval into a race-type effort in order to complete it.


No, not a wet blanket...a realist. I was looking for an honest reponse to my post. It's an aggressive goal...I'm sure I'll just see what happens race day. It's nice to have a sense of how quick I can be by performing this speedwork. Which, frankly, has intimidated me in the past (hate to see how slow I am!).

I missed Dave's response just above and tried for 5 x 800 today (start simple?), total 6.72 w/ 3.1M of w/up & c/dn. See what you both think.

1.88M - 8:09 (138); this includes 3x 100m strides to warm up
800m - 2:57 (168)
400m - 2:15 (155)
800m - 2:55 (170)
400m - 2:14 (159)
800m - 2:51 (174) <--- more like gasping than breathing for last 100m
400m - 2:40 (154) <--- 100m walking pace to start
400m - 1:23 (169) <--- shortened the run
200m - 2:14 (148) <---- all walk
400m - 1:20 (160)
200m - 2:09 (148)
800m - 1:28 (158) + 1:33 (174) = 3:01 <---just to see my splits
1.24M - 8:36 (152)

I must have the wrong idea about strides since they felt more tiring than the intervals: Increase pace to 90% over 100m then slow down; I did the straightaways on the track and jogged the curves.

Cheers,

Roland
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
1,575
Chelmsford, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Jul 24 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2440729
I must have the wrong idea about strides since they felt more tiring than the intervals: Increase pace to 90% over 100m then slow down; I did the straightaways on the track and jogged the curves.


I'm off to the Sox game tonight, but I'll make a quick comment on this. I had always wondered the pace of strides. In Jack Daniels book he said they are around your mile pace and last 20-30 seconds. It works out to around the straights on a track with a smooth transition into and out of the straight. The jog on the curve should be VERY easy. You should be recovering almost fully for each stride. It never ends up that way in practice for me either :) If I do a mile of running with strides on each straightaway my overall pace it slightly faster (10-20 secs)than if I did the mile at an easy conversational pace.

I hope to go through my readings and get you some good workouts for your 5k soon.
 

rbeaud

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
I didn't notice that my next 5k is now this week's 5k. Since this is a waypoint towards my goal of setting the bar in Sep, do I treat the 5k as my speedwork for the week? I was thinking of tackling 5 x 800 again on Tue and filling in another 25 odd miles of running w/ a rest day Sat before the race. I hate the idea of not being able to put forth my best effort, though I'm really shooting for the Sep race and figure that should be the focus.
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
1,575
Chelmsford, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Jul 26 2009, 12:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2443917
I didn't notice that my next 5k is now this week's 5k. Since this is a waypoint towards my goal of setting the bar in Sep, do I treat the 5k as my speedwork for the week? I was thinking of tackling 5 x 800 again on Tue and filling in another 25 odd miles of running w/ a rest day Sat before the race. I hate the idea of not being able to put forth my best effort, though I'm really shooting for the Sep race and figure that should be the focus.


Absolutely make it one of your quality sessions for the week. Keep your workouts between Wed and Sat easy.
 

Kremlin Watcher

Member
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Sep 20, 2005
5,235
Orleans, MA
Kicking my triathlon training up. Today I did a 1,500 meter swim followed immediately by a 25 mile ride on the bike. Finished in 1:45 (not including transition time), which is not bad considering I only started training a few months ago. Not sure how well I would have managed a 10 k run immediately after the bike, but I'll probably try that next week. Shooting for my first race in either late August or early September. Want to finish with a respectable time and be reasonably competitive in my age group.
 

5belongstoGeorge

Left Coast
Dec 18, 2003
8,013
a better place
I've been "absent", in more ways than one for a while, but I am back on the horse. Unemployment, 5 months of nachos and beer, and a pretty serious blunt force injury to my right knee helped me put on 20+ pounds and dimininsh my fitness level significantly form where I was in January.

Today I am on day 1 week 3 of Hal Higdon's twelve week novice 1/2 marathon training plan. Upon conclusion I am going to evaluate my fitness level and see if I am willing to commit to running the full marathon in less than 5 hours, my first, at Carlsbad on 1/24/2010. If I don't feel like I can do the Full then I will switch to a half marathon training regime for Carlsbad on that same date with a goal of 1 hour 45 minutes.

So far everything is relatively good. I have some soreness in one of my knees that had a blunt force trauma about 6 weeks ago. Running seems to aggravate it, but it isn't horrible. I am hoping it will "work itself out" over the miles.

Any thoughts on my foolish interruption in my training, my fitness base's decrease, and how it will effect me in my quest to run a full marathon? More than anything, I respect the distance and want to prepare correctly. I had more than a year of solid training prior to my lapse from February to July. I know my plan to drop 20 pounds will help...

I don't ever want to go backwards again. It sucks!
 

BleacherFan

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Jan 28, 2003
468
Tewksbury, MA
QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Jul 27 2009, 01:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2445940
Any thoughts on my foolish interruption in my training, my fitness base's decrease, and how it will effect me in my quest to run a full marathon? More than anything, I respect the distance and want to prepare correctly. I had more than a year of solid training prior to my lapse from February to July. I know my plan to drop 20 pounds will help...

I don't ever want to go backwards again. It sucks!


I think as long as you stick to you time line and don't do too much too soon you should be good to go. Focus on just getting some consistent months of training getting back into the grove. Then around November 1st start planning for a nice rigid marathon training program.

This morning was a tough morning to do solo. Our coach canceled the workout so I did a workout solo this morning and I didn't beat the heat/humidity/wind. The plan from my coach was 4-5 1200's but when I was sweating a lot during my warmup I knew it wasn't going to be pretty:

2:51,2:51,2:53,2:32(800),71(400)

I felt myself really laboring the 3rd 1200 on the last lap and missed goal pace on all 3 (GP: 2:49). I decided to forgo the 4th 1200 in lieu of an 800 and a 400. I wanted to focus more on pace/form then get another 1200 under my belt. I don't know if this was the smarter decision or whether I should have suffered through the 4th 1200. Maybe this is part of my lack of mental toughness

Dave
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
1,575
Chelmsford, MA
QUOTE (BleacherFan @ Jul 28 2009, 10:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2448210
I think as long as you stick to you time line and don't do too much too soon you should be good to go. Focus on just getting some consistent months of training getting back into the grove. Then around November 1st start planning for a nice rigid marathon training program.

This morning was a tough morning to do solo. Our coach canceled the workout so I did a workout solo this morning and I didn't beat the heat/humidity/wind. The plan from my coach was 4-5 1200's but when I was sweating a lot during my warmup I knew it wasn't going to be pretty:

2:51,2:51,2:53,2:32(800),71(400)

I felt myself really laboring the 3rd 1200 on the last lap and missed goal pace on all 3 (GP: 2:49). I decided to forgo the 4th 1200 in lieu of an 800 and a 400. I wanted to focus more on pace/form then get another 1200 under my belt. I don't know if this was the smarter decision or whether I should have suffered through the 4th 1200. Maybe this is part of my lack of mental toughness

Dave


I went through a similar interval workout on Saturday that I was going to post on later. The plan was 4x1200 at 4:41 with 3 min rest. I ran the first two in 4:37, 4:40, but then I felt sick about 600m into the 3rd so I cut it down to 1000m but his the correct pace. One the 4th I fought through it and was able to complete 1200m in 4:45. I think one of the reasons I was running out of gas was that same reason you did, I didnt get out before the sun started to beat down.

Graph of workout

My max HR is about 186 now and I averaged 158, 169, 172, 176 for the 4 intervals including hitting 182 during the last interval. The weird thing is the first interval felt pretty easy.

Today I went 16 at 8:27 pace which was perfect. Legs were pretty tired near the end, but breathing was good. The link below shows the run, the bouncing around for the pace is some GPS but mostly the hills.

Long run today
 

rbeaud

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
348
Orange, CT
QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Jul 28 2009, 10:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2448226
I went through a similar interval workout on Saturday that I was going to post on later. The plan was 4x1200 at 4:41 with 3 min rest. I ran the first two in 4:37, 4:40, but then I felt sick about 600m into the 3rd so I cut it down to 1000m but his the correct pace. One the 4th I fought through it and was able to complete 1200m in 4:45. I think one of the reasons I was running out of gas was that same reason you did, I didnt get out before the sun started to beat down.

Graph of workout

My max HR is about 186 now and I averaged 158, 169, 172, 176 for the 4 intervals including hitting 182 during the last interval. The weird thing is the first interval felt pretty easy.

Today I went 16 at 8:27 pace which was perfect. Legs were pretty tired near the end, but breathing was good. The link below shows the run, the bouncing around for the pace is some GPS but mostly the hills.

Long run today


Your graphs from RunningAhead.com are intriguing, I'll have to check it out when I have a few moments. For the intervals, should the last one be all out? Maybe practice finish fast? I'll get this after tomorrow's intervals...so next time. I'm going for 4x800 again. A 6am workout should allow me, at least, to avoid the humidity. After that 6 @ 7:10 or so on Thur/Fri. That pace would put my HR at 160 or so; is that an easy enough pace? Sat off, race Sun.
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
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Jul 25, 2005
1,575
Chelmsford, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Jul 28 2009, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2449702
Your graphs from RunningAhead.com are intriguing, I'll have to check it out when I have a few moments. For the intervals, should the last one be all out? Maybe practice finish fast? I'll get this after tomorrow's intervals...so next time. I'm going for 4x800 again. A 6am workout should allow me, at least, to avoid the humidity. After that 6 @ 7:10 or so on Thur/Fri. That pace would put my HR at 160 or so; is that an easy enough pace? Sat off, race Sun.


I've always thought if you had to run the last interval all out you probably ran at the wrong pace. That said, the end of it should be very hard. Keep in mind that in most cases the intervals are run at a specific pace. Running them faster than the prescribed pace wont give you maximum benefit. For example, if you're supposed to be increasing VO2 max you'll be running them around 5k pace. You can run them faster, but that's no longer a VO2 Max workout, but more an anaerobic workout. In the races you're running that isnt a major component of your success.

I put the graphs up to give some people a view of how my interval session progressed. I think the last interval was a bit too hard. I had to turn the last lap into a race type effort to finish close to the right time.

Dont worry about finishing fast in the intervals, that's not really the point of those. You can use the strides to work out speed. Remember, in 5k races the fastest you ever end up going is probably 5:30 pace, maybe even 5:15 for the last 100m or so. Of course, I'm speaking about a 18-20 min 5k, not the 15-16 min ones other people run here.

Have you tried doing longer intervals such as 1000m-1200m at 5k pace? Do a 3 min recovery and after a few sets you'll be feeling it. As far as the easy run is concerned, if you can carry on a decent conversation at 160 then that's ok. if you're struggling to talk at all it is too fast. My long run (long graph in previous post) was done at an easy pace. You'll notice the last couple miles were a little harder, but still not heavy breathing at all.
 

sass a thon

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Please tell me that some of you running pros have tripped and fallen while running. I can't be the only one. Right?
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Did another two-thirds of an Olympic-distance triathlon today. Biked 40k on a rolling course with bad winds in about 1:17, then ran a 10k on a similar rolling course in about 1:03. The run was significantly slower than my 10k last week (48 min), but that was with rest. It is a curious event, the triathlon, as there are a number of challenges in both training and racing, such as which discipline to focus on in training, and which discipline to go all out in during a race. Do you focus on the bike in training, sacrificing the lead swimming leg? In a race, do you go all out on the bike, leaving limited reserves in your legs for the run? I am going up a steep learning curve, and enjoying it thoroughly. I have cut a significant amount of time off all my events so far this summer, and am balancing a couple of 1,500 meter swims a week with 3-4 hard bike sessions and one or maybe two runs a week. Now that I am combining disciplines a couple times a week I hope to get a much better sense of what I need to work on the most and how I may want to approach races. I am shooting for the Cranberry Country Olympic-distance race at the end of August. Any other SoSHers participating in one of the many events in Lakeville on that weekend?
 

sass a thon

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QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Jul 29 2009, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2451437
Do these count?
- Wiping out on ice
- Rolling an ankle in a pothole
- Tripping on a curb


Close, but I was hoping someone else tripped over uneven sidewalk and dove into the ground skinning hands, knees, and somehow, shoulders.
 

BleacherFan

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Jan 28, 2003
468
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QUOTE (sass a thon @ Jul 29 2009, 02:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2451867
Close, but I was hoping someone else tripped over uneven sidewalk and dove into the ground skinning hands, knees, and somehow, shoulders.


I did this - RIGHT in front of Kelly's diner in Ball Square around 6:30am one day. The place was packed and I'm sure a feel people got a laugh or two.

I've also taken a header running trails and slipped on ice many a time.

Dave
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
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Jul 25, 2005
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Finished my first 50+ mile week last week and ended July with 193 miles total, just 3 less than July 2008. That's a good sign because I was planning for many more miles last year. I missed some of July to injury in 2008. I've got a goal of 200+ in August this year which would be a record for me.

I'm enjoying the Jack Daniels plan because the quality workouts change all the time. His plan has 2 quality workouts each week. He schedules a long run as one of the quality runs only once every 3 weeks. At first I didnt like that, until I saw that the other weeks are long but include tempo running. For example, last Sunday I did 16 miles at a a nice even pace. This Sunday I did 16.9 but it went 2 miles easy, 4 repeats of 5 mins at tempo pace with 1 min easy then 60 mins easy running, then 15 mins tempo pace and finally 2 miles easy. My tempo pace last year was about 6:55-7:00, but Daniels says I should be doing about 6:45. The 5 mins repeats I averaged 6:40 and for the 15 min part I averaged 6:46. The easy runs were all done around 8:20 pace.

This Wed or Thurs will be 2 miles easy, 4 reps of 1 mile tempo and 1 mins easy, followed by 5 mins easy, then 3 reps of 1 mile tempo and 1 min easy and 2 miles easy cooldown. Next Sunday I have 12 miles at MP with 2 miles w/u and 2 miles c/d. I'm aiming for 7:18-2:21 pace.

The rest of his plan calls for just filling up your mileage goals for each week with easy runs, about 1 min over MP for me. He has % of peak mileage in his schedule too. I've found myself running 10-20 seconds pre mile slower than last year and running the quality sessions a lot harder. I think that's the way it should be. We'll see the results in a couple months. My legs are sore, but I'm not putting lots of stress on them every time I run. I only missing one running day in July and that was an easy day so I'm doign better staying on the plan.

Workout graph

You can see the pace and HR graph above. My HR fluctuates a bit during the easy section because of the hills.
 

savage362

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Apr 16, 2003
1,389
Vermont
I just started running in mid March. Back then it was just to get active coming off the winter and to get my legs back into baseball shape. Being in school, I was only able to get in 1.5 miles every few days. this summer I went out and bought a treadmill once I got home because I hate running on the road and my schedule doesn't fit well with getting to the gym to workout.

After going a few weeks with really not doing anything I started back in with anything from 1.5-2.5 miles every day, sometimes twice a day. Since then I've bumped it up to 3 miles minimum every day. My initial goal was go get my pace down near 7:00. I went for almost a month with 6:45-7:00 paces but really didn't see much benefit out of it. I didn't do anything special. Just jumped on the treadmill and ran while every-so-often kicking it up a few tenths of a mph. Lately though, after getting my pace from all my runs down to 7:20, I've started going at a slower pace but aiming for more mileage. I'll do 2-3 miles at a 7:30 pace and then each mile after I kick it up .1 mph.

I've noticed a lot more progress this way. I've heard numerous times that its not how hard or fast you run, its how far. Last night I did a 7 mile run in 51:00. Did 2 miles at first then took a break for a minute or 2. Ran a mile, took another minute break. This approach worked well for me. By the end of the run, I felt great except for the 20 lbs shirt I for some reason still had on and after mile 6 my calf began to ache but I pushed through anyway.
 

rbeaud

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Jul 15, 2005
348
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QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Jul 29 2009, 11:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2451369
I've always thought if you had to run the last interval all out you probably ran at the wrong pace. That said, the end of it should be very hard. Keep in mind that in most cases the intervals are run at a specific pace. Running them faster than the prescribed pace wont give you maximum benefit. For example, if you're supposed to be increasing VO2 max you'll be running them around 5k pace. You can run them faster, but that's no longer a VO2 Max workout, but more an anaerobic workout. In the races you're running that isnt a major component of your success.


I've run the last two sessions by tapping the lap button and running at what feels like a natural yet fast, sustainable pace which has been approx 5:25 or so to start. What I take from your commens and the amount of fatigue is that I should slow down to get more out of the workout. Last Wednesday I did intervals, BTW I was completely wrong about the humidity at 6 am thing. I've never seen steam rising from my body in 75 degree weather until that day!

1.71M, including 4x100 strides (this felt better by looking for a more full recovery on the curves)
800m - 2:42.6 (164); 400m - 2:37.3 (143)
800m - 2:51.3 (168); 400m - 2:38.3 (149)
800m - 2:53.4 (172); 400m - 3:12.8 (141)
800m - 2:54.6 (172); 400m - 4:13.8 (136) <---walk after this interval
1.23

Thurs - 6.01 @ 7:40 (152) + 1M sprint @ 5:20 (kids wanted to see me run at evening race clinic), Fri - 6.15 @ 7:43 (147), Sat off. On Sunday, I ran the 5k. I'm hoping that two quality workouts in four days explains my performance: 19:01. The course was told to me as flat and fast. Didn't seem that way with a shallow, yet nearly constant rise up to the 2M point and then a decent to start/finish (loop course not up/back). To help me pace myself better, the Garmin was set to metric. That would give me seven waypoints to gage progress (each kay plus 1M, 2M, 3M). Good in theory but I still went on autopilot in one or two sections. The first kay was good and on target for 18:30 (3:42/kay pace) even though there were quite a few wannabees in the lead group, even a few kids. A steeper gradient in the second kay saw me fall off the pace a bit. The remaining kays were within reason, I think.

1k - 3:42; 2k - 3:55; 3k - 3:41; 4k - 3:50; 5k - 3:40; 65m - 5:02 min/mile. 12th O/all, 4th in my age...tough crowd! Lots of runners mentioned they felt slow, maybe it wasn't just me.

There's a local run some police friends are doing on 22 Aug, so there's another 2x quality workout week. Then the NHRR on 4 Sep. I'll be looking to ensure the next four weeks are 40+ miles as I can definitely see the benefit of simply getting in the miles. I've posted two races and two interval sessions in detail. Would love some suggestions on how to modify or improve my training for the best performance on 4 Sep.

Hope you're still awake after all that...

Cheers,

Roland

Edit: Ahhh, the coveted Supporter banner rather than just Member for this post. I won't have to dread running across Yammer in a thread for the next year!
 

Hooper'sslide

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Apr 14, 2008
32
Central New York
I've been lurking on the baseball forums for a little while. I just decided to look at some of the other forums and I noticed this thread. Here's a brief intro: If pressed I'd class myself as fairly fit but fairly fat. I began running much more seriously this year. I'm still slow but I am logging some more aggressive mileage and I have finally decided to add speedwork. As a result my times are dropping and my running is improving. I posted a 43 min 10K and 20 min 5K this summer as my PR's in those distances. I have averaged about 35 mpw this year (my mileage has climbed over the last few months and I am now posting 45-50 mpw). I do my easy runs and long runs at around 8:25-8:35 miles.

I decided to post because I noticed you discussing your heart rate logs. I got myself a Garmin with HRM this summer and I've wanted to use the HRM for the last month but I haven't started with it yet. Mostly I don't really know where to begin. I've done some research online and spoke with a few friends but I keep getting conflicting advice. I am hoping to use it to help fine-tune my training. I am running a fall marathon (in Lowell- mostly because it ends in the Spinner's stadium) and I am hoping for a reasonably decent time. This will be my third marathon. My other 2 were around 4:15 without any specific training beyond increasing my long runs until I reached a 24 milers a few weeks before the race.

Anyway, I thought I'd say hi and ask some advice on using a heart rate monitor (I hope that is not bad form around here). I also think it would be nice to have a place to discuss training sessions and all. Thanks!
 

Marceline

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QUOTE (Hooper'sslide @ Aug 5 2009, 10:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2476428
I decided to post because I noticed you discussing your heart rate logs. I got myself a Garmin with HRM this summer and I've wanted to use the HRM for the last month but I haven't started with it yet. Mostly I don't really know where to begin. I've done some research online and spoke with a few friends but I keep getting conflicting advice. I am hoping to use it to help fine-tune my training. I am running a fall marathon (in Lowell- mostly because it ends in the Spinner's stadium) and I am hoping for a reasonably decent time. This will be my third marathon. My other 2 were around 4:15 without any specific training beyond increasing my long runs until I reached a 24 milers a few weeks before the race.


Can't really comment on HRM because I haven't used one yet either, but I just recently got one of the Garmin watches and I feel it has really helped my training a lot. Being able to monitor pace in real time has been a huge help for me since I'm still relatively inexperienced at running.

Some updates on my running...

Ran the Blessing of the Fleet, my longest race to date (10 miles) a couple weeks ago. Goal time was 90 minutes and I finished in 88:56. Going to be doing my first half on August 16th and aiming for 2 hours.

I've had trouble getting the long runs above 10 miles. Went out last weekend intending to do 12 and had to stop after 10...legs felt like jello and I just couldn't move any more. Going to take one more shot at a 12 miler tomorrow and see how it goes.

Started doing some speed work with a local running club at the track once a week, which I think has helped me a lot.
 

ctsoxfan5

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809
QUOTE (sass a thon @ Jul 29 2009, 11:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2451374
Please tell me that some of you running pros have tripped and fallen while running. I can't be the only one. Right?


As others above have confirmed - you are not the only one. I actually broke my collar bone on trip and fall while running about 7 years ago. That sucked.

This is my first time posting in this thread. I've been running for about 15 years since I started running high school XC. Back in my "glory days," I could run about an 18 minute 5K, but am now running about a 21 minute 5K. Five years ago, I ran a 3:45 marathon.

I'm currently training for a Half-Marathon in October. Running 4-5 days/week - one long day, one track day.

One question I have for anyone in here is in regard to pacing of track workouts-- when you run mile repeats, are you shooting for 5K pace? Same question - on a 3-4 mile tempo run, shooting for 10K pace? I've heard different advice on this. For mile repeats, some say 5K pace, some say 10K pace, etc. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[Edit - I don't have a heart rate monitor, so any advice as to what heart rate to aim for on track workouts won't be particularly helpful.]
 

BleacherFan

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Jan 28, 2003
468
Tewksbury, MA
QUOTE (rbeaud @ Aug 3 2009, 07:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2468305
1k - 3:42; 2k - 3:55; 3k - 3:41; 4k - 3:50; 5k - 3:40; 65m - 5:02 min/mile. 12th O/all, 4th in my age...tough crowd! Lots of runners mentioned they felt slow, maybe it wasn't just me.


Nice job Roland - keep up those workouts and the mileage - also nice to see others joining the forum!

I screwed up today at the start of my workout (8x.6 mile w/ 90 rec). I ran my 1st interval by hitting the wrong friggin button under the "Advanced" training on my Garmin. You hit the lap to start after a warmup and I was dumb enough to hit the start which actually stopped my warmup. So once I hit the real start, I jumped into my 2nd interval with no rest...

5:25 (guess)
5:28
5:18
5:20
5:14
5:19
5:30 (uphill)
5:40 (just died a little)

No doubt that mistake in the beginning cost me at the end. Overall it felt good but my legs were a little tired
 

sass a thon

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2,265
Anyone ever have any heel pain after runs? It generally feels ok during my runs, but the back of the heel hurts afterwards and is very tender to the touch.
 

rbeaud

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QUOTE (sass a thon @ Aug 8 2009, 11:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2487902
Anyone ever have any heel pain after runs? It generally feels ok during my runs, but the back of the heel hurts afterwards and is very tender to the touch.


Actual heal bone or down low on your achilles? Both my achilles are tender to the touch yet offer no other discomfort during running or any activity really. I'm very stiff in the morning, like walking as if there is no ankle joint stiff. Also had some weird foot pains/issues when I ramped up my mileage. Perhaps you were like me and went up to quickly; less than 10 percent each week if so.

You probably would like it to feel better...I could only offer the usuals: heat/cool plus stretching. If I feel stiff, I like a slow warmup of a mile or so and then stretching rather than before running when "cold".
 

sass a thon

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QUOTE (rbeaud @ Aug 8 2009, 10:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2487925
Actual heal bone or down low on your achilles? Both my achilles are tender to the touch yet offer no other discomfort during running or any activity really. I'm very stiff in the morning, like walking as if there is no ankle joint stiff. Also had some weird foot pains/issues when I ramped up my mileage. Perhaps you were like me and went up to quickly; less than 10 percent each week if so.

You probably would like it to feel better...I could only offer the usuals: heat/cool plus stretching. If I feel stiff, I like a slow warmup of a mile or so and then stretching rather than before running when "cold".


Where the heel bone arrow is pointing..that is where it hurts. Hurts after a run and right after I wake up. I can feel it every morning when I take my first few steps.

It's weird...I haven't really ramped up mileage too quickly at all. Maybe it's just one of those aches and pains runners frequently have to deal with. I'm hoping I don't need to rest it because taking time off is not really an option.

 

Kremlin Watcher

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Orleans, MA
Leading up to my first triathlon at the end of the month, I did the Brew Run today in Brewster. 5.2 miles in 41:00. Consistent 8-minute miles and then for me a reasonably hard run the last two-tenths to pass a bunch of people who went out too hard. My first race in forever. Very pleased with my pace and consistency; miles were all between 7:50 and 8:10. Heart rate at finish was 142; decreased by about 35% within 5 minutes, so my cardiac recovery time is good. Have been swimming and biking hard as well, laying the ground for the race in three weeks. I have no sense at the moment of how well I will manage a 10 k run after a 1,500 swim and a 40 k ride, so I think I'll try a dry run this or next week before a short taper. Looking forward to racing again, though.
 

BleacherFan

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QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Aug 8 2009, 10:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2490619
Leading up to my first triathlon at the end of the month, I did the Brew Run today in Brewster. 5.2 miles in 41:00. Consistent 8-minute miles and then for me a reasonably hard run the last two-tenths to pass a bunch of people who went out too hard. My first race in forever. Very pleased with my pace and consistency; miles were all between 7:50 and 8:10. Heart rate at finish was 142; decreased by about 35% within 5 minutes, so my cardiac recovery time is good. Have been swimming and biking hard as well, laying the ground for the race in three weeks. I have no sense at the moment of how well I will manage a 10 k run after a 1,500 swim and a 40 k ride, so I think I'll try a dry run this or next week before a short taper. Looking forward to racing again, though.


Wow, that seems like a really low HR to have at the end of the race. How old are you? Sounds like you definitely had some stuff in the tank when you finished - probably a testament to your hard training. Sounds like you used this as a training run

Dave
 

underhandtofirst

stud who hits bombs
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Jul 25, 2005
1,575
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There are a few posts here I have to respond to but I wanted to throw my workout for today in here and then hopefully put together a good response tonight during the Red Sox offensive breakout game. I can dream.

Today was my first real test of my fitness. I took yesterday off to make sure I could put in my best effort. Plan was a 2 mile w/u, then 12 miles at MP (shooting for 7:18-7:21) then 2 miles c/d. The weather was really nice, 56, cool and dry. The warmup went well, 2 easy downhill miles in 8:24 then 8:10. I started right at the 4 mile mark of the Baystate marathon course for my MP miles. This way I could also check my Garmin vs the course markers. Splits were as follows: 7:23, 7:19, 7:18, 7:16, 7:16, 7:16, 7:19, 7:16, 7:20, 7:17, 7:16, 7:08. I knew about 3 miles in I was in good shape because it was a comfortable pace. The garmin helped me keep on pace around the 9th and 10th miles. It is so great to have instant feedback on current pace of each mile. I also found that miles 9 and 10 of the course appear to be a bit long. My Garmin recorded 10.02 miles for miles 4-14 of the course, very close. I felt very good the entire time. My legs felt the pace a little bit near the end but I had plenty in the tank. Including my w/u I went through the half marathon in 1:37:30, which is only 2.5 min off my PR.

My avg HR for the MP miles was between 150 and 151, except the last 2 miles were 155 going uphill. I feel really happy the way my training has gone. I think the extra tempo miles at a higher intensity coupled with the easy miles during the week at a lower intensity is working out well. I did almost the exact same workout exactly a year ago and I ran out of gas after about 7 miles at 7:26 pace and struggled to finish at 8:00 pace.

Looking forward to writing up some responses to the HR training posts and other great stuff I've read in the last week or so.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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QUOTE (BleacherFan @ Aug 9 2009, 08:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2490797
Wow, that seems like a really low HR to have at the end of the race. How old are you? Sounds like you definitely had some stuff in the tank when you finished - probably a testament to your hard training. Sounds like you used this as a training run

Dave

I'm 43, but have always had a lower-than-normal heart rate (resting is about 62). I felt great after the run, but am concerned that I am not doing the right things or going hard enough to build speed for racing. My stamina is excellent, but as you point out, I had a lot left in the tank at the end. I think my problem is strength at this point. Aerobically I feel like I could have run faster, but my legs just aren't there yet. I am not sure what the problem is down there, and I need to think about how to increase my speed through more varied workouts in the weight room, the pool, the bike, sprints, etc. I hope it's just a case of my being at the beginning of a long cycle of building core strength, but building both speed and stamina in all three disciplines is difficult. My plan right now is to work on the basics for the next two weeks, building stamina and form to take me through the race I'm doing on August 30. That race will establish a baseline, and then I can use that baseline as a training tool and hit the weight room and a more disciplined training regime in the off-season, working toward a significant improvement in time for races starting next spring. But in general I am please with my progress so far. This forum is also a big help in aiding my thinking about training and racing.
 

rbeaud

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QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Aug 9 2009, 10:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2490857
There are a few posts here I have to respond to but I wanted to throw my workout for today in here and then hopefully put together a good response tonight during the Red Sox offensive breakout game. I can dream.

Today was my first real test of my fitness. I took yesterday off to make sure I could put in my best effort. Plan was a 2 mile w/u, then 12 miles at MP (shooting for 7:18-7:21) then 2 miles c/d. The weather was really nice, 56, cool and dry. The warmup went well, 2 easy downhill miles in 8:24 then 8:10. I started right at the 4 mile mark of the Baystate marathon course for my MP miles. This way I could also check my Garmin vs the course markers. Splits were as follows: 7:23, 7:19, 7:18, 7:16, 7:16, 7:16, 7:19, 7:16, 7:20, 7:17, 7:16, 7:08. I knew about 3 miles in I was in good shape because it was a comfortable pace. The garmin helped me keep on pace around the 9th and 10th miles. It is so great to have instant feedback on current pace of each mile. I also found that miles 9 and 10 of the course appear to be a bit long. My Garmin recorded 10.02 miles for miles 4-14 of the course, very close. I felt very good the entire time. My legs felt the pace a little bit near the end but I had plenty in the tank. Including my w/u I went through the half marathon in 1:37:30, which is only 2.5 min off my PR.

My avg HR for the MP miles was between 150 and 151, except the last 2 miles were 155 going uphill. I feel really happy the way my training has gone. I think the extra tempo miles at a higher intensity coupled with the easy miles during the week at a lower intensity is working out well. I did almost the exact same workout exactly a year ago and I ran out of gas after about 7 miles at 7:26 pace and struggled to finish at 8:00 pace.

Looking forward to writing up some responses to the HR training posts and other great stuff I've read in the last week or so.



Nice work! Happy that you are hitting your targets and if you are within 2.5 min of your PR for a training run, that has to make you happy. You are a bit more of a metronome than I with your near flat HR. Is the Baystate course flat-ish? My Saturday morning 14.5 wasn't quite as much fun (7:52, 151 BPM) since on Friday night I pushed the 5 YO around for 7.5 miles (7:39, 157 BPM). I think he snuck some lead weights into his pants. On Sat, my legs were fatigued though my pace only dragged on the hill segments. Though I probably should be pleased with 23 miles in less than 14 hours. I was tired enough that my lower back had spasms during miles 12-14. This was my first long run past 10 miles in about three weeks so I guess it shouldn't surprise me that it was a bit of work. I'll get a recovery run today of about 6 miles tonight to start this week and shoot for another 14+ on Saturday before our vacation starts. It will be tough to sneak away for runs, particularly as they will have to be treadmill miles.

Out of curiosity, what screens do you find useful while running? For races I have instantaneous pace, time, and distance. That seems to be working provided I check it often enough for the feedback. For long runs it's HR, distance, AVG pace, and time. I mostly watch the HR and modify pace accordingly.

Also I needed to say "thank you" for getting me thinking about time vs. distance at the start. I took stock of my pace at 200m, 400m, and 800m so I didn't rocket out of the gates.
 

rbeaud

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Orange, CT
QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Aug 9 2009, 10:45 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2490887
I'm 43, but have always had a lower-than-normal heart rate (resting is about 62). I felt great after the run, but am concerned that I am not doing the right things or going hard enough to build speed for racing. My stamina is excellent, but as you point out, I had a lot left in the tank at the end. I think my problem is strength at this point. Aerobically I feel like I could have run faster, but my legs just aren't there yet. I am not sure what the problem is down there, and I need to think about how to increase my speed through more varied workouts in the weight room, the pool, the bike, sprints, etc. I hope it's just a case of my being at the beginning of a long cycle of building core strength, but building both speed and stamina in all three disciplines is difficult. My plan right now is to work on the basics for the next two weeks, building stamina and form to take me through the race I'm doing on August 30. That race will establish a baseline, and then I can use that baseline as a training tool and hit the weight room and a more disciplined training regime in the off-season, working toward a significant improvement in time for races starting next spring. But in general I am please with my progress so far. This forum is also a big help in aiding my thinking about training and racing.


All that biking and swimming must be good for you! At 39 years, my resting HR is about 59 though I don't think it would be 142-ish after 5 miles at 8 minute pace. More like 150+ especially with a fast .2 mile finish. I would think this race gives you confidence in your running fitness. Your triathalon looks tough on paper...so I'll leave that sport to you. As to your speed, have you tried running hard in training? If you haven't, I think you will find as I did that feeling comfortable running fast has to be learned as much as learning to run fast. While results of my recent foray into speedwork has been somewhat mixed, I have surprised myself. Even though you may feel like one more kay or half kay at speed just isn't possible, actually it is. And your heart won't explode or your legs crumble into jelly.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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QUOTE (rbeaud @ Aug 9 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2491099
... feeling comfortable running fast has to be learned as much as learning to run fast.

This is a good insight and you have made me think more carefully about my running. I have always been a slow runner, and am simply accustomed to maintaining a slow pace, pretty much whatever the distance. I need to un-learn being slow and learn how to run fast. Thanks.
 

underhandtofirst

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Jul 25, 2005
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QUOTE (rbeaud @ Aug 9 2009, 02:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2491089
Nice work! Happy that you are hitting your targets and if you are within 2.5 min of your PR for a training run, that has to make you happy. You are a bit more of a metronome than I with your near flat HR. Is the Baystate course flat-ish?


VERY flat. There are a couple gradual inclines and declines, but I can only think of one that you might consider a hill and even that is only .10 or .20 miles long. I didnt look at my HR at all during the run I just had the garmin autolap every mile and I kept checking in on my pace for each lap and adjusted accordingly which helps explain the super consistent splits. My first mile included the only real up and down hill so that mile was a little off and the second mile is a very gradual uphill the entire time.
 

underhandtofirst

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Jul 25, 2005
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QUOTE (rbeaud @ Aug 9 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2491099
I think you will find as I did that feeling comfortable running fast has to be learned as much as learning to run fast. While results of my recent foray into speedwork has been somewhat mixed, I have surprised myself. Even though you may feel like one more kay or half kay at speed just isn't possible, actually it is. And your heart won't explode or your legs crumble into jelly.



QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Aug 9 2009, 06:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2491275
This is a good insight and you have made me think more carefully about my running. I have always been a slow runner, and am simply accustomed to maintaining a slow pace, pretty much whatever the distance. I need to un-learn being slow and learn how to run fast. Thanks.


I find that tempo runs are most helpful in getting used to running fast. I've been doing 5-7 mins repeats at tempo pace (6:40-6:50) with 1 min rests for the last few weeks. Yesterday when I ran at MP (7:18) it felt relatively easy. Tempo runs dont really wipe you out. They are hard to be sure, but you're not going into oxygen debt until maybe the very end of your run, if that. You;'re running bordering on being uncomfortable, but not quite there. They are great confidence boosters because you learn to run with some discomfort, but you're not gasping for air like with VO2 max intervals (5k pace).

Last year I did continuous tempo runs of 4-7 miles. This year on the Jack Daniels plan it is more 5-7 min reps with occasional 10-20 min runs with shortish rests (1-3 mins depending on distance of rep). The intensity is harder too. Daniels' plan is pretty nice because you have set paces for each workout. For example, based on my 19:57 5k back earlier this year my training paces are 8:33 for easy runs, 7:17 for marathon pace, 6:51 for tempo runs, 6:16 for intervals. Now for a 19:36 5k the paces change to 8:24/7:12/6:44/6:08. For tempo runs longer that 20 mins he has a table to adjust the pace. It has been an interesting process. He also has you do tempo paced work during your weekly long runs. I've found my quality sessions are run at faster paces than in previous years and my easy days are slower (by design). My overall average pace is slightly slower than last year, but I feel like I'm gettiing in better work and yesterday's session leads me to think I'm going to be better off.
 

BleacherFan

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QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Aug 10 2009, 01:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2494523
I find that tempo runs are most helpful in getting used to running fast. I've been doing 5-7 mins repeats at tempo pace (6:40-6:50) with 1 min rests for the last few weeks. Yesterday when I ran at MP (7:18) it felt relatively easy. Tempo runs dont really wipe you out. They are hard to be sure, but you're not going into oxygen debt until maybe the very end of your run, if that. You;'re running bordering on being uncomfortable, but not quite there. They are great confidence boosters because you learn to run with some discomfort, but you're not gasping for air like with VO2 max intervals (5k pace).


You've put yourself in good shape for Baystate - hopefully you're mileage is creeping up and you'll be golden. People something don't put a lot of bearing on training on a course but I think it's a big advantage. I think how Rodgers used to train alot on the Boston course and look how that helped him.

For me, I had one of my best workouts to date in some tough conditions yesterday evening. It was a 1200,1600,1600,1200 - ended up a little faster than what my coach wanted with a 3:45,5:03,5:03,3:44. Overall happy since I'm starting to peak for Ollie's on Sep 12th. The only thing that's bothering me is my damn hammy - it's just been tight after workouts but it loosens up OK for races/workouts. I think it's just weak and I need to strength it at this point.

Between now and then, more workouts twice a week and some sort of race..

Dave
 

Hooper'sslide

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Apr 14, 2008
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Central New York
I had a really nice run last night. It was a hilly 8 miler with negative mile splits. I ran an 8:35 warmup mile and then: 8:22, 8:08, 7:47, 7:45, 7:10, 6:52, 6:36. Mile 3 was a long steep hill; mile 4 and 5 were filled with a few large rollers. The last mile was pretty hard but I felt like I still had something left in the tank (I certainly could not have sped up anymore but I could have maintained near that pace for a little while longer). It was nice to have a good speedwork run. Lately my long runs have felt really good (I just did an 18 miler at 8:25) but I have had real trouble on my tempo runs and intervals (I seem to run out of energy early and feel the need to scale back on pace). I don't know if the heat and humidity might be a factor though. Last night's run was my first one later in the day. I ran at 10 pm and it was reasonably cool, my earlier speedwork sessions have nearly all been in the middle of the day to early afternoon.

I like Underhandtofirst's suggestion of tempo runs at mp, they sound like a really good idea. I think I'll make that my speed session next week.

I notice that some of you have mentioned Bay State, are many of you running it? I am signed up for the marathon. I was originally hoping for a 3:15 (a very significant PR but I have been training much more rigorously) but I am now thinking I should scale back my goals to a more reasonable 3:20-3:25.
 

BleacherFan

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QUOTE (Hooper'sslide @ Aug 13 2009, 01:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2502943
I like Underhandtofirst's suggestion of tempo runs at mp, they sound like a really good idea. I think I'll make that my speed session next week.


I like them as well, I unfortunately didn't do a lot of them during a long run which I think can work wonders. Although, technically tempos are done at 1/2 marathon pace for anywhere from 30-60 minutes (from what I hear).

Even though I'm not running a fall marathon, I went out this afternoon curious to know how my strength is. I haven't been doing long runs at all but I wanted to do 15+ today, with 9 at MP. This would also be my 3rd workout of the week so I had no idea how it would go:

After a 5k warmup my shirt was soaked, the track smelled like burnt rubber and I knew this wouldn't be fun. I ended up giving up after 5 miles (5:52,5:59,5:59,5:58,5:57) and slowed the last 4 down to like 6:28 pace. The heat and dehydration was killing me - to top it off, the hose at the track had no water so I was in deep do-do. The cooldown was tough - glad that's done.

Overall I did 9 miles in about 6:10 pace in the middle of 15+ - my longest run since Boston. Legs felt good, wanted to go, but the conditions killed me.
 

underhandtofirst

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QUOTE (Hooper'sslide @ Aug 13 2009, 01:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2502943
I like Underhandtofirst's suggestion of tempo runs at mp, they sound like a really good idea. I think I'll make that my speed session next week.

I notice that some of you have mentioned Bay State, are many of you running it? I am signed up for the marathon. I was originally hoping for a 3:15 (a very significant PR but I have been training much more rigorously) but I am now thinking I should scale back my goals to a more reasonable 3:20-3:25.


I dont know of anyone else running Baystate this year, but there have been people in this topic who have run it in the past. If you havent registered I'd do it soon. They were almost filled for the marathon a couple weeks ago.

I did my MP run in really perfect conditions. Today I did 10 miles @ 8:20 pace when it was 80, sunny and humid. My HR was higher at the end even though I was running about 1 min per mile slower than in my MP run. The course had a few more hills and the temp was 20-25 deg hotter and in the sun. Shows how much the conditions affect time and effort level required.

The tempos runs I've done this year have been great. I find they improve my toughness and make MP seems easier to handle. Last year I did tempo runs at about 7:00/mi and the tempo portion lasted 30-60 mins. This year I've been doing them 10-20 seconds/mi faster but in shorter reps. Anywhere from 5 mins tempo with 1 min rest (9-10 min/mi) to 10 mins w/ 2 rest to 15 with 3 rest. I end up doing 30-40 mins of tempo paced work, but the short rests allow me to keep the intensity higher. it makes sure I'm running in the correct training zone.

Someone mentioned a while back about HR training. I pay attention to my HR quite a bit. It's a basic way to compare effort level from one day to the next. Now temp and other factors affect HR it gives you a basic idea how hard you're running. It also helps me measure fitness. I had to do a few calculations first. I got my Max HR, noty by using the formula, but by using my HR at the end of a hard push at the end of a 2 mile run. There are a few methods you can use to get your max HR. Some involve multiple hill runs or 800m repeats. So for me it's 186 now. Then I measured my resting HR. It is about 54. This allows me to calc my HR reserve which is max HR-rest HR (132 for me).

Table
Pct Max HR Notes HR Pct Res 100 186 Max 186 100 98 182 VO2 max 183 98 94 175 VO2 min 177 93 90 167 LT max 170 88 85 158 Long max 157 78 80 149 LT min 154 76 75 140 Rec max 146 70 70 130 Long min 140 65

The table about is what I use for to determine the best training zones for various workouts. The ranges are slightly different in some publications. I believe these are from Pete Pfitzenger, but I've seen the same in other locations. I've found the HRR numbers work best for me. So in my case I should keep my HR on long runs between 140 and 157. I find that the beginning for me is in the high 130s and the end is closer to low-mid 150s. This includes trying to finish slightly faster than the beginning. Rec max is the maximum HR I should have for any recovery run. This ensures you're taking it easy. I;ve found this is very close to conversation pace. I can pretty much hold a conversation to about a HR of 150. After that it gets a little broken up. LT min and LT max are the HRs for my tempo runs. If I keep my HR in this range I'm improving my lactate threshold. When you get over your LT you body can't clear lactate out of your legs fast enough and you need to slow down. In the marathon, you stay just below this level. In the half marathon you hit it near the end of the race. For 5k and 10k you're over your LT and the key is timing it so you're not slowing down at the end. VO2max is used during interval workouts. I've found the numbers in the table a bit high for me. I'll probably get to the VO2 max range on my last interval. If I get over 176 I find I get wiped out soon, except during race conditions. I was able to hold 179-182 for the last 15 mins of a 3.5 mile race in June, although I did find myself slowing down, which means I was working too hard early on.

Over time I've become better at having a specific goal for each workout. I run my quality sessions (interval, tempo and even MP) harder and my other days slower. Wiping myself out doing multiple workouts at MP +30 seconds isnt very helpful. Instead I've run them at MP + 60 secs and using that extra energy to do my tempo runs at a better pace and go longer.

Another change this year is spacing out my hard efforts and making sure I'm getting decent rest for each means I'll get the most out of my workouts. I get about 7 hours of sleep per night. More than this over a few days and I get sluggish, less and I start to wear down. Last year I'd often do workouts on 4-5 hours of sleep and it probably cost me a bit. This year if I try and skip a day if I'm not going to get enough sleep. I cant do it always, but I do when I can.

I've read a few books on training and try to follow plans set up in these books or online. I feel more comfortable using a plan from someone who knows a bit about how workouts should progress during the training cycle. I also have tried a variety of different plans over time to keep my training fresh and learn different approaches.

Hopefully this helps some people new to this group. I keep trying to learn more to help improve and reach my goals.
 

WinRemmerswaal

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Underhand, that is really helpful stuff, you have clearly done a lot of reading and thinking about this. I would appreciate thoughts from you or anyone else on setting up a training program for a half marathon. I posted a couple of months ago, had been a very intermittent runner from my late 20's-late 30's, ran a 23 minute 5K back in the fall, used a program from runner's world over the winter to build up mileage leading to a 10K in June. Felt terrible on race day and ran 46:24 but actually was not unhappy about that, even on a bad physical day was able to slog out 7:30s which to me was a sign that my base of fitness had improved from last year. Started up after that on another runner's world program, running 25-30 miles per week now, occasional intervals and tempo runs, long runs of 10-11 on weekends. Still learning how to pace myself properly on the different runs, but am enjoying it and and having some pretty good sessions. Did 11 miles this Saturday in 94 minutes and was tired but not dead. Saw an announcement last week for a half marathon in my town that literally goes right down my street (my front door is mile 7.5) and figured I should go for it. Date is 11/15, so about 3 months from now.

I am looking to make myself a training schedule for the next 12 weeks leading up to this half marathon. I definitely do better if I make myself a schedule up front - even with these pretty basic free training routines from runner's world I've found that I do about 90% of the workouts if I have a list sitting there on my desk. I'm also trying not to overthink it, in reviewing your last post it's clear that there are many different approaches out there and it seems like one could read 5 different books and just end up confused. Looks like you have done enough homework to design your own training regimens, for myself, I'd be happy to take a canned schedule and see how things go.

So, Underhand or others, is there any source you would especially recommend for training routines? Runner's world looks like they have changed their site since the last time I did a training program there, not sure if that means theirs are any good or not. Are there other sites that are better, or books that would be a better source?

Thanks in advance, seeing the mileage and times that the regulars in this thread put up is both inspiring and a bit initimidating...
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Had an awesome day at Fenway today, but bad news for my training: running all-out on the basepaths and in the field put some major strain on my right groin muscle and I strained it pretty hard. Don't think it's serious, but it hurts and there's no way I can run (or bike) for several days. Looks like I'll be swimming for the rest of the week in prep for my race on the 30th.

Do any of you have any advice on a groin strain? It's not debilitating, but it hurts and I really want to be able to race on the 30th. Should I rest it totally, and if so for how long? I guess how it feels tomorrow will be a major factor, but any advice on treating leg muscle strains/pulls in the lead-up to a race would be appreciated.
 

Marceline

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Completed my first half marathon, the AFC Half in San Diego, over the weekend. My goal was to finish under 2 hours, and I just made it, with a time of 1:59:21.

Pretty brutal hill at mile 11 of this race, and as I saw everyone around me start walking I was really glad for all the hill training I've done while I cruised past them. I only had 1 training run of more than 11 miles before this race and those last two miles felt really long...felt great to finish though. Going to keep working on improving my speed and maybe do another one in the fall, see if I can shave a few minutes off that time.
 

RedOctober3829

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Jul 19, 2005
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deep inside Guido territory
For all of you Ironman nuts out there, why don't you take a look at this race in Pittsfield, VT? Aptly named The Death Race, it combined Ironman events with outdoor tasks that drain you both physically and mentally. You have 24 hours to finish the race. This year, 49 entered the race and 31 quit during it.

Edit: I didn't include it in the snipped part of the article, but you have to also chop 20 logs into quarters as well.
QUOTE
The Death Race festivities actually start the day before, at 10 p.m., when organizers host a race meeting atop “Joe’s Hill’’ behind Riverside Farm. Racers hike up the hill with their bikes, but return only with their frames, leaving the wheels and chains behind. Nervous chatter fills the cool, bug-infested air.

The race starts at 4 in the morning, well before the first rays of sunlight squeeze into this narrow valley. Race director Andy Weinberg, hoisting a sawed-off stump overhead, informs racers they must find their own in a field across the street (identified by their race bib), hack it out of the ground, and carry it with them the entire day. “You guys are a bunch of nut jobs who want to torture yourselves in Pittsfield,’’ he says, half-taunting, half-encouraging. “The next 24 hours will be the toughest you’ve ever experienced.’’

Competitors crawl through a muddy trench, under barbed wire, to and from the stump field. Then they pick up their bike frames and, after snaking through two more barbed-wire sections, jog a mile upstream in the Tweed River. Everyone falls. Repeatedly.

“Running in the river is like a woman going into labor,’’ says Desena. “You know it’s going to hurt.’’

After the river run, racers lug their bikes, stumps, and tools to the wood-chopping station, split 20 logs, then hike a mile uphill to the list of presidents’ names, before returning to the Amee Farm. The next test is a Lego challenge. Racers have to assemble a collection of Legos, using only their memory or notes, to replicate a model provided to them earlier. After six hours, cracks begin to show.

“There are physical challenges in this race, but we’re trying to break them mentally,’’ says Darby.

Part of the anguish is that racers never know when the race ends. Competitors aren’t given a race itinerary; they’re simply told to go from one task to the next. From the Lego station, racers head back to the Tweed River, and slog a mile south. At the next station, they hustle to the Riverside Farm, find a raw egg, return to the river, create a fire from scratch, boil water, and eat the egg. Only then can they retrieve their bike wheels.

After rolling their bikes to a small pond at Riverside Farm, racers watch as a volunteer tosses their bike chain into the frigid waters. The racers must dive in, find the chain, and reassemble their bikes. After a brief 300-yard pedal, they exchange the bike for a 40-pound bucket of rocks, which they must drag 1,000 feet straight up Joe’s Hill through “the ravine.’’

Hiking the ravine, says Desena, is “like trying to ski uphill with banana peels on both feet.’’ At the top of the hill, racers get instructions to hike back down the hill, fill the bucket with water, and bring it back to the summit. Only then are they given the OK to head to the Amee Farm, and the finish line


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