SOURCES: Yankees Offered Choo 7 years/$140MM Before Moving On Beltran

[rembrat]

There are too many threads here that are being used as megathread. I thought this should be broken out as it's fucking awesome by itself.
 
The Yankees offered Choo 7/140 (WHY?!) and Boras wanted "Ellsbury money" but the Yankees decided to go with Beltran!
 

 
In the aftermath of Robinson Cano’s defection to Seattle, New York presented Choo a seven-year, $140 million deal, three sources outside the Yankees’ organization told Yahoo Sports. When Boras countered asking for more money – one source indicated he wanted “Ellsbury money,” or $153 million over seven years – the Yankees pulled the offer and signed Carlos Beltran to a three-year, $45 million deal.

 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees--shin-soo-choo-remains-the-riddle-of-the-free-agent-market-165809610.html
 
God damn it why didn't this happen!

 

[EvilEmpire]

This makes me appreciate Beltran a little more.

 

[TomRicardo]

Well that went well for Scottie. 

 

[VORP Speed]

How do you say perfect is the enemy of good in Korean?

 

[glennhoffmania]

Does that offer prove that the mandate was bullshit?  I get dizzy trying to keep up with the calculations.  They still would've needed some combo of Johnson/Ryan/Roberts unless Choo can play 2B so that's another 5m to the payroll.  Maybe they don't sign Thornton and Roberts and it's a push.  I know I'm a broken record but I can't for the life of me figure out their master plan.
 
And spending 300m on Ellsbury and Choo but drawing a line in the sand at 175m for Cano is baffling.  Cano+Garza+another cheaper OF seems a lot better than Ellsbury+Beltran+Roberts+Johnson.

 

[NYCSox]

Duh. They were going to sign me to play second base for league minimum. Or maybe to be their seventh inning guy?

 

[rembrat]

Does that offer prove that the mandate was bullshit?  I get dizzy trying to keep up with the calculations.  They still would've needed some combo of Johnson/Ryan/Roberts unless Choo can play 2B so that's another 5m to the payroll.  Maybe they don't sign Thornton and Roberts and it's a push.  I know I'm a broken record but I can't for the life of me figure out their master plan.
 
And spending 300m on Ellsbury and Choo but drawing a line in the sand at 175m for Cano is baffling.  Cano+Garza+another cheaper OF seems a lot better than Ellsbury+Beltran+Roberts+Johnson.

 
No, it doesn't prove that. Right now, if Rodriguez is lost for the year they are under by $10MM. Had they signed Choo at 20 per that number would have been $5MM. So Operation Save $30MM* would still have been a-go.
 
*(whatever the luxury tax is next year)

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
No, it doesn't prove that. Right now, if Rodriguez is lost for the year they are under by $10MM. Had they signed Choo at 20 per that number would have been $5MM. So Operation Save $30MM* would still have been a-go.
 
*(whatever the luxury tax is next year)

 
There was a post in one of the Yankee payroll threads citing something that said they were right at 189m as of today excluding ARod but including benefits and the rest of the 40 man.  That's what I was going by.  Not saying it was correct though so you may be right.
 
Here's the post: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80834-staying-under-189m-the-impossible-dream/?p=5170223

 

[rembrat]

This also confirms the Yankee blueprint, laid out by Rany Jazayerli his fucking awesome article, is to hand over big contracts to B players for their age 30+ seasons thus continuing the cycle of doing jack shit.

 

[hbk72777]

Anybody that uses last year to prove a point about this year loses credibility. The Yankees first half roster is all gone as far as position players. If he doesn't think having Tex, Beltran, Jeter, McCann and Ellsbury will be a huge  upgrade over Hafner, Youk, Wells, Ichiro then he's insane.
 
 
He also used the Red Sox to point out how well positioned they are to continue their run. That's easy to do when the Dodgers bail you ass out.
 
Do I think the Yankees make the playoffs this year, 90% no. But giving Kershaw a big ass contract would turn things around very quickly.

 

[Rustjive]

If he doesn't think having Tex, Beltran, Jeter, McCann and Ellsbury will be a huge  upgrade over Hafner, Youk, Wells, Ichiro then he's insane.

 
Yeah, who's Robinson Cano anyways?

 

[Stitch01]

Anybody that uses last year to prove a point about this year loses credibility. The Yankees first half roster is all gone as far as position players. If he doesn't think having Tex, Beltran, Jeter, McCann and Ellsbury will be a huge  upgrade over Hafner, Youk, Wells, Ichiro then he's insane.
 
 
He also used the Red Sox to point out how well positioned they are to continue their run. That's easy to do when the Dodgers bail you ass out.
 
Do I think the Yankees make the playoffs this year, 90% no. But giving Kershaw a big ass contract would turn things around very quickly.

OK, now start with a 79 win baseline and tell me where that get you.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

While I'm loathe to underestimate the stupidity of the Yankees, this rumor stinks of bullshit.  Would the MFY really make that kind of offer, especially with the Cano situation still unresolved and in a critical stage?  Would Boras really turn that down?  I'd like to believe it, for the sake of comedy, but I'm having a hard time.

 

[glennhoffmania]

While I'm loathe to underestimate the stupidity of the Yankees, this rumor stinks of bullshit.  Would the MFY really make that kind of offer, especially with the Cano situation still unresolved and in a critical stage?  Would Boras really turn that down?  I'd like to believe it, for the sake of comedy, but I'm having a hard time.

 
Well it sounds like they made the offer after they knew that Cano was gone.  Your larger point remains, however.

 

[rembrat]

Of course they would make that offer. It's what they've been doing this offseason.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
Well it sounds like they made the offer after they knew that Cano was gone.  Your larger point remains, however.

 
Oops, missed that.
 
I still don't see Boras turning down this offer.  I do, however, see him spreading this rumor.

 

[nattysez]

 
There was a post in one of the Yankee payroll threads citing something that said they were right at 189m as of today excluding ARod but including benefits and the rest of the 40 man.  That's what I was going by.  Not saying it was correct though so you may be right.
 
Here's the post: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80834-staying-under-189m-the-impossible-dream/?p=5170223

 
Edit:
 
I think that post is incorrect, but I don't have time now to run through all of the math to figure out why.  It seems to be generally agreed that the MFY have somewhere between $12mm and $5mm left to play with, depending who you ask.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I still don't see Boras turning down this offer.  I do, however, see him spreading this rumor.

If it is BS I could see the Yankees doing Boras a solid and letting the rumor remain unchallenged.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Let's say this is Boras spreading some BS.  How does it help him?  So NY offered 140m and he said no.  Then NY pulled the offer and moved on.  Other teams know that NY is no longer interested.  None of this means they now have to top 140m to sign him.  A better BS story would be that NY has a standing offer of 140m and Choo is trying to get more.

 

[rembrat]

If it is BS I could see the Yankees doing Boras a solid and letting the rumor remain unchallenged.

 
Because, why exactly? All you poopheads trying to ruin this are poopheads.

 

[YTF]

Let's say this is Boras spreading some BS.  How does it help him?  So NY offered 140m and he said no.  Then NY pulled the offer and moved on.  Other teams know that NY is no longer interested.  None of this means they now have to top 140m to sign him.  A better BS story would be that NY has a standing offer of 140m and Choo is trying to get more.

 No but perhaps it could be in hopes that teams may think that Choo might "settle" for the same 7/140 now.

 

[rembrat]

If the idiot willing to pay 7/140 is no longer giving that out why do I have to pay the same price? Come on, people.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Yeah I'm with 'brat.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

If the idiot willing to pay 7/140 is no longer giving that out why do I have to pay the same price? Come on, people.

 
I don't necessarily think it's a fake story to "drive up his price," but it doesn't have to be that linear--Boras seems not to have spoken about Choo a single time this offseason without also mentioning the numbers he's looking for.  He probably considers it a subtle way of setting the conversation.  If you float this story, you're further perpetuating the idea that he can get that and that other teams value him that way.  It's just trade-craft kind of thing.  If it helps it helps kind of philosophy.
 
The reason you don't say it's a standing offer is because hypothetically, it isn't even real, and if Choo doesn't take that contract and eventually gets something like $80 mill, it looks really bad for everyone.  In this story, the only thing that stopped him getting it was Boras overplaying his hand (a hit Boras would be glad to take if it meant adding another $5 or $10 mill to the overall total).  Plus it isn't really plausible, the Yankees aren't spending anything on OF after they've signed Beltran.
 
I could see being real too though just because the whole offseason has seemed like three or more people have the keys to the ship and no one's checking with anyone else.

 

[rembrat]

I don't disagree with anything you said except that this supposedly before they signed Beltran after they lost Cano. 

 

[The Tax Man]

Perception is reality.  If Boras did float this rumor it could be as simple as he wants to make teams believe Choo is worth 7/$140 to at least one MLB team.  

 

[MakMan44]

Perception is reality.  If Boras did float this rumor it could be as simple as he wants to make teams believe Choo is worth 7/$140 to at least one MLB team.  

That doesn't make any sense. All this does is drive down Choo's price. Who else has the cash and the need? 
 
The Yankees backing out only hurts Choo's market.

 

[The Tax Man]

I think all of baseball knows that the Yanks were already out on Choo before this leak.  The fact that they have 6 outfielders and 3 starting pitchers is a pretty big clue that they would not sign a 7th OFer.  So this statement at least says... "well the Yanks believed he was worth 7/$140 million." 

 

[MakMan44]

I think all of baseball knows that the Yanks were already out on Choo before this leak.  The fact that they have 6 outfielders and 3 starting pitchers is a pretty big clue that they would not sign a 7th OFer.  So this statement at least says... "well the Yanks believed he was worth 7/$140 million." 

That doesn't mean shit though. Is Ellsbury really worth 153 million over 7 years? Probably not but that's what he's being paid. The Yankees have been handing out crazy overpays all offseason. They don't represent a starting point this year, they usually represent the high point that a player can get. 
 
EDIT: I will admit that it does only take only crazy owner/GM but I still don't see this in the same light as you do, guy.  

 

[rembrat]

Please read what was linked in the opening post and if you still can't figure it out please read the title and if you still can't figure it out please read post #25 in this thread. Please, read.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Was that the one about perception?  Cuz it kina blew my mind.

 

[HillysLastWalk]

Anybody that uses last year to prove a point about this year loses credibility. The Yankees first half roster is all gone as far as position players. If he doesn't think having Tex, Beltran, Jeter, McCann and Ellsbury will be a huge  upgrade over Hafner, Youk, Wells, Ichiro then he's insane.
 
 
He also used the Red Sox to point out how well positioned they are to continue their run. That's easy to do when the Dodgers bail you ass out.
 
Do I think the Yankees make the playoffs this year, 90% no. But giving Kershaw a big ass contract would turn things around very quickly.

 
Will it be a ***huge*** upgrade?
 
I'm pretty sure he covered all this but ...
 
Tex - he was declining the previous three years (to 2013), and now you throw in a wrist injury, and top it off with the fact that he'll be 34.  He may be closer to Lyle Overbay than you think.
 
Fistpump McJeets - 40 year old shortstop coming off of an age 39 season where he couldn't play because of his ankle.
 
McCann, Ellsbury, Beltran - sure, but you just lost Cano.  One of the most valuable players in baseball.  Or as they say in Seattle ... Hello, Cano!
 
But wait:
 
Beltran - declined the past two years and is entering his age 37 season (he had a .339 obp last year).
 
McCann - last two years not like his previous years!
 
Ellsbury - Is he fragile?  Can he gain 2011 power?  The only season he hit HR's in double figures?
 
How about digesting to what the guy wrote?  There are lots of question marks here.  Even with the shiny, new toys.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

 
Edit:
 
I think that post is incorrect, but I don't have time now to run through all of the math to figure out why.  It seems to be generally agreed that the MFY have somewhere between $12mm and $5mm left to play with, depending who you ask.

 
That seems close to right to me.
 
Wells 24.6, Tex 23.1, CC 23, Ells  21.2, Soriano 19, McCann 17, Kuroda 16, Beltran 15, Jeter 12, Ichiro 6.5, Thornton 3.5, Johnson 3, Roberts 2 = 185.9m.  
 
Subtract out the 35m due them from Cubs, Jays and Angels, and it's about 150.9 million.  
 
They have some potentially expensive arb eligible players, like Gardner and Robertson, but even if you peg that at $15 million and use Speier's numbers in the other threads of $10.8m for benefits, that's $176.7m, leaving them about $12m for minor league contracts and to fill out their roster.  They won't really be able to make any mid-season moves I wouldn't think without getting rid of someone, and they really have nobody to get rid of.  And if A-Rod plays any games for them, they are over.

 

[Sampo Gida]

 
There was a post in one of the Yankee payroll threads citing something that said they were right at 189m as of today excluding ARod but including benefits and the rest of the 40 man.  That's what I was going by.  Not saying it was correct though so you may be right.
 
Here's the post: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80834-staying-under-189m-the-impossible-dream/?p=5170223

 
Kelly, Robertson, Gardner, Nova and Cervelli are going to end up getting close to 12 million in arbitration, and then the rest of the 40 man will be anywhere from 5-8 million. Benefits in 2014 will be 11-12 million in 2014 per ESPN.  15 men under contract are at 178 million per Cotts, less Arods 27.5 AAV, so thats 151.  Cotts is actually 1.5 low since Arods AAV is 27.5 and not 26, so call it 152.5.  Speier usually holds back 5 million in these calculations for midseason moves, and then you have incentives/bonuses that have to be accounted for. 
 
So yeah, add it up and for all intents and purposes they are at 189 (185-189 + bonuses/incentives) even without Arod for 162 games.  If someone wants to say definitively they have 10 million to spend and be under 189, well, I would not bet on it.  .
 
I also would not bet on Arod being suspended for a full 162 games, and 100 is probably a more conservative guess.  Pretty sure the 189'ers in the FO are looking at the more conservative numbers and so that additional 5 million for Choo probably looms large,  and is why they did not pursue him despite being reasonably close to a deal.   

 

[JohntheBaptist]

I don't disagree with anything you said except that this supposedly before they signed Beltran after they lost Cano. 

Right--I was addressing glenn's question as to why they wouldn't just float a rumor that it was a standing offer to Choo (as opposed to one that's now gone), and one of the reasons would be because they went on to sign Beltran, and thus a standing offer for 7/140 after that would make literally no sense.  Plus as I mentioned, the dynamics of that story mean that if Choo gets way less with that on the table, everyone looks completely ridiculous.
 
I don't really think it was a Boras-started rumor either, though.  Jon Heyman was on the FAN a bit ago and seemed sort of perplexed by the whole thing and just gave a bunch of "who knows?" and ums and uhhhs.  If this was a Boras thing he'd have been right there carryin that water.

 

[In my lifetime]

 
Kelly, Robertson, Gardner, Nova and Cervelli are going to end up getting close to 12 million in arbitration, and then the rest of the 40 man will be anywhere from 5-8 million. Benefits in 2014 will be 11-12 million in 2014 per ESPN.  15 men under contract are at 178 million per Cotts, less Arods 27.5 AAV, so thats 151.  Cotts is actually 1.5 low since Arods AAV is 27.5 and not 26, so call it 152.5.  Speier usually holds back 5 million in these calculations for midseason moves, and then you have incentives/bonuses that have to be accounted for. 
 
So yeah, add it up and for all intents and purposes they are at 189 (185-189 + bonuses/incentives) even without Arod for 162 games.  If someone wants to say definitively they have 10 million to spend and be under 189, well, I would not bet on it.  .
 
I also would not bet on Arod being suspended for a full 162 games, and 100 is probably a more conservative guess.  Pretty sure the 189'ers in the FO are looking at the more conservative numbers and so that additional 5 million for Choo probably looms large,  and is why they did not pursue him despite being reasonably close to a deal.   

 
The 185-189 estimate is fair at this point. However, it only matters what the number is after the season is over and everyone has been paid (incentives, salary dumps and pick ups, etc).  I would assume the Yankees strategy will be to stay close enough to the 189 that they can dump some salaries as the season progresses if they are out of the running.  And it is a strategy that makes sense on some level.   Sign some people now, sell some tickets, evaluate sucktitude, become sellers before trade deadline to get under 189. They have some large expiring contracts that a contender may not mind picking up for a 2 month run as they head into the playoffs (or that may be packaged with a player who actually has some value over his contract like Gardner)
 
Of course, one more big signing would pretty eliminate any chance to stay close to the 189 and that is why I expect they are done opening their wallets (sorry - no Tanaka).  
 
Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread (with at least 2 other fiscal threads going on) --- carry on.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

How do you say perfect is the enemy of good in Korean?

 
완벽은 선의 적이다.
 
Or something to that effect. Ironically, if you read that backwards it says "Old Habits Never Die". 
 
Also, there's absolutely no mention of Choo to Yankees in Korean media, who sometimes gets early scoops through relatives, friends, etc. 
 
All the talk has been the limbo Choo may have put himself in, and how Texas is still the most likely destination. 

 

[soxhop411]

“@CJNitkowski: Heard NYY/Choo agreed at 7/140. Then Boras asked to make it $143, $1M over Carl Crawford. Angered NYY, agreed with Beltran instead.”

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

“@CJNitkowski: Heard NYY/Choo agreed at 7/140. Then Boras asked to make it $143, $1M over Carl Crawford. Angered NYY, agreed with Beltran instead.”

 
Well, there's a solid business decision. Actually, the fault is on both parties. If true and I'm Choo and I end up setting for 5/100 I'm going to be pretty pissed at my agent. To say nothing of the Yankees.

 

[Average Reds]

“@CJNitkowski: Heard NYY/Choo agreed at 7/140. Then Boras asked to make it $143, $1M over Carl Crawford. Angered NYY, agreed with Beltran instead.”

 
This reads like a planted story from someone with an axe to grind with Boras.
 
Anything's possible, but there are a lot of reasons that I find this to be implausible on it's face. 

 

[terrynever]

Is CJ still a flake?