Sox talking Mookie trade with Dodgers, Padres - News & Discussion

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section15

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And the fact of the matter is this: if they do trade Mookie, and he is 100% committed to going to free agency, and such a trade helps them get under the luxury tax (thus resetting it), they could, if they wanted to, shell out max dollars for Mookie after 2020. They'll have some big money coming off the books in the next couple of years so it is not an absolutely crazy thought. If they trade him and tell him they want him back and trading him now allows them to pay him what he wants as a free agent, and he still has a sense that being here is a good thing for him, it could possibly work.

In other words, trading him doesn't *necessarily* take them out of the Mookie 2020 FA sweepstakes. In fact, it might actually strengthen their position to sign him.
Certainly, but as happened with Jon Lester and Andrew Miller- the "trade 'em , and get them back in free agency" maneuver doesn't seem to work out very well.
 

burstnbloom

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What puzzles me about this is that it's not like Quantrill is having trouble adjusting to the majors--he's been ordinary or worse at every level aside from a good 5-game stint in A- in 2016. Fangraphs has him as a 40 FV prospect, and that's certainly what his pro numbers look like. What's the attraction? I mean, sure he throws 95, but lots of mediocre pitchers throw 95.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not enamored with Cal Quantrill, I just think if you're asking me to choose one I'll take him.
 

scottyno

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Certainly, but as happened with Jon Lester and Andrew Miller- the "trade 'em , and get them back in free agency" maneuver doesn't seem to work out very well.
They were a finalist for Lester and got outbid, it probably would have worked out fine if they'd offered more money than the Cubs did.
 

geoflin

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Certainly, but as happened with Jon Lester and Andrew Miller- the "trade 'em , and get them back in free agency" maneuver doesn't seem to work out very well.
Because they got outbid for both. The outcome would have been the same had they not traded Lester and Miller but the return would have been less. Same will be the case for Mookie - if they get outbid, he'll sign elsewhere, whether or not they trade him.
 

jon abbey

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BOS got 7 years of E-Rod for 1/2 year of Miller, textbook example of why you trade valuable players before they get to FA if at all possible.
 

chawson

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Found some noteworthy background on Josh Naylor while digging up some early scouting reports:

[Naylor] injured teammate Stone Garrett in what was initially described as a prank by multiple news sources. However, Garrett’s agent refuted the team’s account of the “prank” [involving a knife], stating that there was more malicious intent. Garrett’s injury to his hand required three stitches and surgery on his thumb, and Naylor ended up suspended for a game. Upon the trade, Stone Garrett had this to say, via Twitter:

God works in mysterious ways!
— Stone Garrett (@stonegarrett22) July 29, 2016
He’s not on our team, so this is slightly premature, but if we’re digging deeper into the players reported them it’s interesting to know.

 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
ONE YEAR OF An all time great AT $27M/PER for a bunch of mediocrity and a CONSENSUS TOP-100 PROSPECT A ball catcher. Right.

Outside of a stud return I say go for it in 2020, try to sign him, and let him walk if that’s what he wants to do.
FTFY. I mean, I don't think the deal is quite good enough, but it's not as laughably bad as you're painting it.
 

high cheese

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FTFY. I mean, I don't think the deal is quite good enough, but it's not as laughably bad as you're painting it.
All time great negates "one year", "27M/YR", "Consensus TOP 100 Prospect" for me.

He's worth it. On every level.

Prospects are just that. Seen many come and go.
 

nvalvo

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All time great negates "one year", "27M/YR", "Consensus TOP 100 Prospect" for me.

He's worth it. On every level.

Prospects are just that. Seen many come and go.
I hear you. My preference would be to keep him and make a run. If Price and Sale are healthy, we're still not favorites, but we're dangerous. See where things stand at the deadline, and then do what makes sense.

That said, this is actually what his trade value is. If we're trading him, this (or something similar) will be the return. It's roughly comparable to the Goldschmidt trade — Betts is a better player than Goldschmidt, but Mookie also earns ~2X what Goldschmidt was making. Both had one year of control left.
 

nattysez

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I hear you. My preference would be to keep him and make a run. If Price and Sale are healthy, we're still not favorites, but we're dangerous. See where things stand at the deadline, and then do what makes sense.

That said, this is actually what his trade value is. If we're trading him, this (or something similar) will be the return. It's roughly comparable to the Goldschmidt trade — Betts is a better player than Goldschmidt, but Mookie also earns ~2X what Goldschmidt was making. Both had one year of control left.
But I think St. Louis knew they could re-sign Goldschmidt while Mookie is telling everyone he wants to hit FA, which is a critical difference.

Fwiw, I love the idea of trying to convince Von Wagenen to make a splash by trading for Mookie.
 

nvalvo

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But I think St. Louis knew they could re-sign Goldschmidt while Mookie is telling everyone he wants to hit FA, which is a critical difference.

Fwiw, I love the idea of trying to convince Von Wagenen to make a splash by trading for Mookie.
Even so, this package is comparable to the perceived value a year ago of the Goldschmidt package — a catching prospect in the middle of the top 100, a major league ready back-of-the-rotation SP, and another position player prospect with warts — although it looks like all of those players are thriving in teal, maroon and charcoal. Carson Kelly was probably a better prospect than Campusano by a tic; Luke Weaver had a bit more service time than either of the SD pitchers, but a comparable track record before the trade, and Andy Young looked like a fringe-y utility prospect before his a breakout season as a 25 year old in the PCL (unless it was just the juiced ball). He's probably not quite the asset that either Margot or Naylor would be.

This deal also includes Wil Myers, but is also likely to include enough money stapled to him to make that more or less a wash. Getting Wil Myers at a decent approximation of his market value isn't onerous.

If the strategic decision has been made to deal Betts, I'm not sure I'm happy with that. But at the level of tactics, finding and fleecing a motivated counterparty is the way to go.
 

E5 Yaz

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If the Red Sox ownership wanted to "go for it one more time" with Mookie, they wouldn't have fired Dombrowski.

Bloom has a different set of marching orders.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Keeping Mookie is a GFIN move. GFIN winters aren't spending 9 million dollars on a 2B, SP and C and still having 15 million left before the final tax penalty. This will all make much more sense once Betts is traded and Bloom has 14 months to wheel and deal for window opening in 2021.
 

nighthob

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If the Red Sox ownership wanted to "go for it one more time" with Mookie, they wouldn't have fired Dombrowski.

Bloom has a different set of marching orders.
Yeah, you can pay Mookie what he wants when you have the low cost talent to put around that deal. Unfortunately Boston has Price and Eovaldi instead. Their anchor deals going forward are going to be Bogaerts and Devers (when his extension eventually arrives). But they need to find the low priced talent to put around them while they work to unload Price and Eovaldi and wait out Sale (assuming that he returns to health and earns that deal).
 

teddywingman

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And before you jump on me... I have reached a point in life where I don't need sports. I only watch these days because of the joy with which Betts plays.
Of course I love Xander and Devers and Benintendi and JBJ and all the rest... but I am just a fan who won't spend another dollar.
I quit things easily if it makes me angry.
 

jon abbey

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I quit things easily if it makes me angry.
This is how sports fandom should be, honestly. There is enough stress in the rest of life that if your team's management (or your team's players) piss you off enough, you should definitely stop caring, if you are able to (not always so easy). My favorite franchise in my lifetime has been the Knicks but I have rooted for them to lose every game for years and will continue to do so until 1) Dolan sells and/or 2) they luck into entertaining superstars.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm still not convinced that it's just the Padres here. I would expect talks between the Red Sox and Dodgers, given their mutual backgrounds, to be as leak-proof as possible.

I also wouldn't yet rule out the Cardinals
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I guess I love the game more, and the players less, than some of you. I mean, if I thought management was screwing Betts over, or didn't care about fielding a winner, or any of the rest of it, that would leave a sour taste in my mouth that might lessen my enjoyment and my interest. But as it is, it's at least as much Betts as ownership that's driving the situation where it appears to be going, so unless I want to nurse equal and opposite grudges against both of them, it's better to just say "shit happens" and continue to enjoy watching good baseball players in Red Sox uniforms (whoever they turn out to be) do their best to win.
 

BigSoxFan

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Mookie has been a great player for the Red Sox and I’ve enjoyed every minute of his career here but trading him really won’t have much of an impact on me. We’re in this situation because he wants to go to FA. We have zero control in this matter. I’m perfectly ok with trading him and getting the best possible deal. I also really don’t want any part of the contract he’s going to get.
 

bosockboy

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I guess I love the game more, and the players less, than some of you. I mean, if I thought management was screwing Betts over, or didn't care about fielding a winner, or any of the rest of it, that would leave a sour taste in my mouth that might lessen my enjoyment and my interest. But as it is, it's at least as much Betts as ownership that's driving the situation where it appears to be going, so unless I want to nurse equal and opposite grudges against both of them, it's better to just say "shit happens" and continue to enjoy watching good baseball players in Red Sox uniforms (whoever they turn out to be) do their best to win.
Sums it up. If the 10/320 offer is true that satisfies me for effort. Allocating 15% of your payroll to one player is tough and I respect going another way with it. They will find another route to the next ring, zero doubt. Laundry first.
 

darnedsox

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Hey HEY!
It's Baseball
Make a list of all the Sox players you've experienced, cheered for, bought tickets, shirts>.>emulated, ......copied their stance. quirks in and out of the box, or on the mound and brought with you to the annual 4th of July family picnic wiffleball tourney that your stupid fuckin' cousin from White Plains comes to wearin' his yankee gear. Wind up like EL Tiante , get in the box, back straight, nob even with the ear-bat pointing up like a wire haired Irish pointer staring at a grouse? huh? Big wind up and then......bloop-alla spaceman. We survived all thse guys.....Fisk, Lynn,,Yaz Tony C and have how many newspaper front on our wall now> I fly my WORLD SERIES CHAMPIANS flag way more often than I did. I love to see what happens when the kids come from outta Podunk and catch fire. It's Baseball!
And Truck Day is a few day commin'
 

Le Bastonois

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If Betts is traded I will definitely be rooting against the Red Sox next year. Maybe for a few years. Possibly forever.
I thought the same thing when they traded Freddy Lynn to California. Burleson, I could live with, but not Freddy. But I went back to the Bosox like a beaten housewife.
 

jmm57

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I thought the same thing when they traded Freddy Lynn to California. Burleson, I could live with, but not Freddy. But I went back to the Bosox like a beaten housewife.
And they were proven correct as Lynn went from a ~6 win guy to about a 3 win guy.

Mookie at this point is a must trade for me. No tonging against Mookie personally, I just think it’s a bad bet to give any person $400m/12 or whatever to do any job. Especially something athletic.
 

Teachdad46

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On October 17, 2004 I went for a long walk in the Vermont woods alone with my dog, my Red Sox relationship on my mind. I was cooked. Fried. At some sort of end. I had to get a grip on what it meant to be a Red Sox fan. Like some of you have written before, I only follow baseball. The other three 'majors' (four if you want to toss in futbal) had lost their lustre over the decades, but baseball never would; it was with me 24/7 twelve months a year. By then I was a husband and the father of three teenaged sons, and my rage against the baseball gods once again dooming the Sox to another Yankee driven season-ending beatdown was having a clear and deleterious effect on the family. That was certainly not a good thing. It was a stupid thing. But there it was. What to do? Could I adjust? Could I accept such pain with at least some modicum of equanimity? Or did I have to give it all up and run from the game? I could NOT imagine life without baseball, but I also could NOT continue to do this to my family. I HAD to get a grip or give up the game. Far into the woods I swore to myself (I'm a recovering Catholic and swearing is what we do) that I would accept what the fates brought down on my team, and find a way to enjoy being a fan, no matter what. I left the woods a changed man. I now follow the team just as assiduously as I did, only from a more distant emotional POV. So when Mookie, (my favorite player since the young Nomar, and the two of them my most favorite since the '67 version of Yaz) moves on, which he is going to do, I will accept it. I won't like it, but that chapter will end, and we will move on.
 

joe dokes

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I guess I love the game more, and the players less, than some of you. I mean, if I thought management was screwing Betts over, or didn't care about fielding a winner, or any of the rest of it, that would leave a sour taste in my mouth that might lessen my enjoyment and my interest. But as it is, it's at least as much Betts as ownership that's driving the situation where it appears to be going, so unless I want to nurse equal and opposite grudges against both of them, it's better to just say "shit happens" and continue to enjoy watching good baseball players in Red Sox uniforms (whoever they turn out to be) do their best to win.
This should be the final say on the topic until something actually happens. Ownership gets the benefit of the doubt from me. Bloom seems to know what he's doing. While his ultimate mandate is different than at TB, the requirements of the TB job -- knowing other teams' prospects -- should serve him well. I am confident that the return for Mookie won't be Nate Colbert, Enzo Hernandez Downtown Ollie Brown and Wil Myers.
 
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Captaincoop

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I guess I love the game more, and the players less, than some of you. I mean, if I thought management was screwing Betts over, or didn't care about fielding a winner, or any of the rest of it, that would leave a sour taste in my mouth that might lessen my enjoyment and my interest. But as it is, it's at least as much Betts as ownership that's driving the situation where it appears to be going, so unless I want to nurse equal and opposite grudges against both of them, it's better to just say "shit happens" and continue to enjoy watching good baseball players in Red Sox uniforms (whoever they turn out to be) do their best to win.
Agreed. Losing a homegrown superstar like Betts is brutal, but he's not making it easy for the Sox to hang on to him, either. It's not like this is a guy who is loyal to the city and they're screwing him. He wants, and is going to get, every possible dollar in free agency. That's his right, but it puts the Sox in a tough position heading into the year.

My beef is with ownership for getting themselves to the point where they need to cut salary to save themselves money, at the cost of the on-field product. And meanwhile they're still raising ticket prices and taking in TV money.

I'll watch this year - rebuilding seasons are fun to follow in a different way. But I'm not buying any tickets this year.
 

Shaky Walton

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I cannot imagine not being a Red Sox fan. It's just too ingrained in me. And as has been pointed out, Mookie's stance -- must go to free agency and talk of a $400 mm deal -- is part of why the Sox are entertaining trading him. If he made it clear to the Sox that his priorities are a market deal AND staying in Boston, I would think they would and could try harder to make it happen. My sense is that being in Boston is a positive for him but hardly a driver. And it might not even be a positive.

Parenthetically, the grass is not always greener, and I do wonder how Mookie will enjoy playing in a market that is less baseball crazed, if he goes to a place like SD or LA. Or many other cities.

But I digress. My main point is that while I diverge heavily from the view that says "I am done with the Sox if they trade Bettts," I have to admit that I do feel some reduction in my intensity around sports. It's based on the sum total of what we've experienced in the last few years. Things such as the NFL punishing Brady with such sparse evidence of ball deflation, Brady possibly leaving the Pats when really, he should be a Patriots player for life in my opinion, the Mookie situation, the Sox sign stealing nonsense, the Pats organization being stupid enough to actually tape another sideline (and I believe it was just stupidity, not cheating), Kyrie Irving needlessly pledging his fealty to the Celtics and then walking that back almost immediately thereafter, the Sox seemingly necessary focus on getting away from the luxury tax penalties, and the annual noise about will they or wont they go to the White House, collectively sap a lot of the fun out of it.

I am not overly focused on any one thing, and there are other buzzkill examples, but these sorts of things make rooting for my teams less joyous. What's the next disappointing off field thing I will be faced with?
So Mookie being traded will not push me over the edge. It wont make me quit the Sox. Or choose another team. Those notions are insane to me. But it will contribute to the sense that investing so much of myself into something that so often kicks me in the gut might have to be re-evaluated or might just naturally decline. In fact, I think that is already happening.
 

johnnywayback

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Agreed. Losing a homegrown superstar like Betts is brutal, but he's not making it easy for the Sox to hang on to him, either. It's not like this is a guy who is loyal to the city and they're screwing him. He wants, and is going to get, every possible dollar in free agency. That's his right, but it puts the Sox in a tough position heading into the year.

My beef is with ownership for getting themselves to the point where they need to cut salary to save themselves money, at the cost of the on-field product. And meanwhile they're still raising ticket prices and taking in TV money.

I'll watch this year - rebuilding seasons are fun to follow in a different way. But I'm not buying any tickets this year.
I get the instinct, but the fact is that Mookie being traded has nothing to do with the predicament they're in re: the luxury tax. They can get under the threshold this season without trading Mookie, and they can easily work around a huge extension in 2021 and beyond, which is why they've offered one.

Here's how I look at it. Players fought their asses off for the right to determine their own destinies after six years of service. Each player can decide how to handle that reality. In Mookie's case, he wants to play for the team that places the highest value on his talent. For purely baseball reasons -- having nothing to do with 2020's payroll, which is irrelevant in the calculation -- the Red Sox don't think that's going to be them.

Now, we can argue that it should be them, that they should simply plan outbid everyone. But we don't know their computation of Mookie's value or their assessment of his likely market. So it's hard to assess their judgment. But I do think they're sincere about the way they're describing the situation. They've offered him massive contracts. They are clearly willing, eager, to pay him a huge amount of money to stay. But he believes he can get more than they're willing to pay if he goes to free agency, and they apparently think he's right.

Mookie's inevitable departure is sad, but I'm not mad at him -- after all, he's earned the right to play it this way! -- and I'm not mad at ownership for making their own strategic assessment of the situation and proceeding accordingly. He's not leaving because he's greedy or disloyal, and he's not leaving because John Henry is cheap or because Cherington signed Sandoval or because Dombrowski extended Eovaldi. He's leaving because, under the rules of MLB, he's reached one of the few moments where his fate is in his hands. I'm happy for him. And I'm glad that, instead of making decisions based on frustration with that system, the team is making a clear-eyed effort to maximize its chances of success within it.
 

bsj

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Too many players have walked out of Boston in the past. Ownership doesnt want to get burned again and I cant blame them.

I hate this deal. But I hate more the fact that Betts won't even listen to an offer. The Sox could offer to make him the highest player in baseball and he wouldnt listen. It screams of a desire to get out of town IMO. I'm not "mad" at Mookie...he has a right to leave if he wants to. But ultimately, this situation is far more on him than ownership.

I love the guy, but I can't fault the team if they make a move. Even this ugly one.
 
Aug 11, 2019
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On October 17, 2004 I went for a long walk in the Vermont woods alone with my dog, my Red Sox relationship on my mind. I was cooked. Fried. At some sort of end. I had to get a grip on what it meant to be a Red Sox fan....and my rage against the baseball gods once again dooming the Sox to another Yankee driven season-ending beatdown was having a clear and deleterious effect on the family.
Well, my first 17 years of following the Red Sox led to seasons like these (and then they got to the World Series and lost in Game 7).:
  • They finished:
    3rd of 8
    3rd of 8
    6th of 8
    4th of 8
    4th of 8
    4th of 8
    4th of 8
    3rd of 8
    3rd of 8
    5th of 8
    7th of 8
    6th of 10
    8th of 10
    7th of 10
    8th of 10
    9th of 10
    9th of 10

 

SoxVindaloo

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I thought the same thing when they traded Freddy Lynn to California. Burleson, I could live with, but not Freddy. But I went back to the Bosox like a beaten housewife.
Funny, I loved Lynn but trading the Rooster was the one that tore me up.
I have seen them let Fisk and Nomah go via free agency and trade, while seeing Mookie leave will sting it won’t compare to those two leaving IMO.
The Huge Caveat to this is that the leaks about contracts etc we are hearing about are at least partially true. If they are part of some Dentist type smear job then this whole thing becomes an abomination. The direct quotes from Betts over the years about free agency and a contract extension seem to indicate there is veracity to the way this is being reported.
 

Monbonthbump

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Most of us here root for the suits. None of us here knows what the future will bring. Betts has earned the right to decide how he wants to chart his own future. Anticipating each Red Sox Spring with optimism and joy will continue my own future regardless of who occupies the suits.
 

RedOctober3829

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Too many players have walked out of Boston in the past. Ownership doesnt want to get burned again and I cant blame them.

I hate this deal. But I hate more the fact that Betts won't even listen to an offer. The Sox could offer to make him the highest player in baseball and he wouldnt listen. It screams of a desire to get out of town IMO. I'm not "mad" at Mookie...he has a right to leave if he wants to. But ultimately, this situation is far more on him than ownership.

I love the guy, but I can't fault the team if they make a move. Even this ugly one.
The advice he's getting about his contract is going to be sadly mistaken. If he's looking for Mike Trout money, he's not going to get it.
 

Plympton91

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I guess I love the game more, and the players less, than some of you. I mean, if I thought management was screwing Betts over, or didn't care about fielding a winner, or any of the rest of it, that would leave a sour taste in my mouth that might lessen my enjoyment and my interest. But as it is, it's at least as much Betts as ownership that's driving the situation where it appears to be going, so unless I want to nurse equal and opposite grudges against both of them, it's better to just say "shit happens" and continue to enjoy watching good baseball players in Red Sox uniforms (whoever they turn out to be) do their best to win.
This is where I am on this as well. Betts won’t sign anything close to a realistic extension. The type of deal he wants as a free agent is a “winner’s curse” contract.

The smart thing to do is get what you can for him. He’s treating it like a business, the Red Sox should reciprocate.

After reading Speier’s book, there are two times when Mookie was decidedly unhappy here. The book makes clear that he felt like the organization didn’t support him as a rookie in 2014, and also mentions that the game wasn’t fun even though they won in 2017. Specifically that unnamed people criticized the dance moves he, Bradley, and Beni would do after victories as disrespecting the game.

So, I’m not sure that even matching the top offer would be enough. They might lose him anyway. if they can get three cheap contributors, Time to move on.
 

jon abbey

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The advice he's getting about his contract is going to be sadly mistaken. If he's looking for Mike Trout money, he's not going to get it.
No, but I think most would guess if he has another Mookie-type season, he will get somewhere between the 10/320 BOS offered and the 12/430 Trout signed for, and if that's the case, the advice he's getting will have been correct, at least financially (happiness in his presumably new destination remains to be seen).
 

Cesar Crespo

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.Did Mike Trout even get what he asked for?

I'm doubting most FA do. They start with a high figure and come off it.
 

Average Game James

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No, but I think most would guess if he has another Mookie-type season, he will get somewhere between the 10/320 BOS offered and the 12/430 Trout signed for, and if that's the case, the advice he's getting will have been correct, at least financially (happiness in his presumably new destination remains to be seen).
He might get closer to Trout than many would expect. Remember, Trout wasn’t a FA when he signed that deal, he still had 2 year left on his deal ($66.5mn total money). So Trout essentially signed a 10 year, $360 million extension. Trout almost certainly gets more as a FA.
 

DJnVa

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I *want* to root for Mookie on the Red Sox. I will be disappointed if I cannot.

However, I am, and will always be, a Red Sox fan.
 

joe dokes

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The Sox could offer to make him the highest player in baseball and he wouldnt listen. It screams of a desire to get out of town IMO. I'm not "mad" at Mookie...he has a right to leave if he wants to. But ultimately, this situation is far more on him than ownership.
You could offer me a plane ticket on the bestest plane ever. I'd rather drive. I want to see the country and the scenic roads. Doesn't mean I hate planes. I can't fly and drive at the same time. Betts has said from Day 1 (or whatever day it became apparent that he'd be a significant player) that he was going to take it to free agency. There's nothing that suggests a "desire to get out of town." At most, it suggests that he's open to playing in any number of towns. And he can only play in one of them. As for the Sox offering to make him "the highest paid player," if they do that next winter, I think he'll listen. If they make him that offer *next* winter, and he takes less money to play somewhere else, *that* suggests he didn't want to be in Boston.
 

Maximus

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Jul 18, 2005
4,970
Mookie is a special talent and he wants to get paid. He's going to the highest bidder once he becomes a FA and doesn't want to sign now. Bloom is playing the cards he's been dealt and is trying to maximize the return by having the Padres and Dodgers bid against one another. I'd be shocked if Mookie isn't traded. I'd also trade Price separately and maximize the return for him.
 
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