SportsCenter and OTL bringing back Spygate (live, 9AM)

Super Nomario

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TheoShmeo said:
Whatever the cause, this nonsense will never go away.  The Pats are the team the NFL and other fans love to hate, and part of that is tied to Bill's hubris with the taping and his terse and condescending demeanor.
Why is everything Belichick does because of his "hubris?" Honestly, this is one of the dumbest things in sports ever. As far as I can tell, he's less arrogant than most in his position. It's hubris because he doesn't talk to the media, even though every time the media writes anything it's 57 varieties of stupid?
 
SeoulSoxFan said:
This thread is not being locked. Unless posters start to sling personal attacks or upload spider pics.
If that's what it takes, fuckface
 

Harry Hooper

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NFL Pravda indeed. Did Kelly Naqi resurface for this one?
 
Taping Indy defensive signals helped the Pats intercept Manning? Fascinating.
 
SJH already noted how Brady has absolutely feasted for a decade plus on looking one way to make Polamalu bite hard while tossing the ball elsewhere. Don't need special prep for that. Oh, and then there's the 2 special teams TDs that were decisive vs. the Steelers in that AFCCG.
 
As I noted before, the "manly men" of the NFL are a bunch of jealous children.
 

Shelterdog

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Super Nomario said:
Why is everything Belichick does because of his "hubris?" Honestly, this is one of the dumbest things in sports ever. As far as I can tell, he's less arrogant than most in his position. It's hubris because he doesn't talk to the media, even though every time the media writes anything it's 57 varieties of stupid?
 
If that's what it takes, fuckface
 
 
It's also only Hubris is if the pride is unjustified or excessive.
 
BB's confidence in his ability to run a football franchise seems just about spot on.
 

dcmissle

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This is likely to burn out after Sunday's games if not Thursday's game.

Unless Congress gets into the act, which strikes me as a long shot, there will be no fuel for this.
 

brandonchristensen

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dcmissle said:
This is likely to burn out after Sunday's games if not Thursday's game.

Unless Congress gets into the act, which strikes me as a long shot, there will be no fuel for this.
The fuel is everything that the Pats spent 7 months trying to shed with DFG was undone in one morning.
 
No one is reading past the headlines. Everyone just thinks ESPN just blew the lid off of the organization of the Patriots.
 
Brady was absolved for one weekend, and now will likely forever be tainted. Same with Bill/Kraft/etc.
 

Hoya81

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dcmissle said:
This is likely to burn out after Sunday's games if not Thursday's game.

Unless Congress gets into the act, which strikes me as a long shot, there will be no fuel for this.
Not with my battery throwing Eagles fan wife. Already getting all caps texts.
 

nattysez

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The "tainted" thing is funny to me.  "Just win, baby" is seen as an admirable rallying cry.  Red is seen as one of the great NBA legends, in part because of all of his shenanigans.  But somehow BB is "tainted" because he is doing the same thing -- finding loopholes and stretching the rules as far as they'll go (and occasionally beyond).  I'm a big opponent of claims that the NFL is being "wussified" in an effort to protect player health, but the whining when people do things like pipe in crowd noise and monkey with team communications really seems like it would've been scoffed at in an earlier era. 
 

nighthob

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DrewDawg said:
 
 
Why did you never share the warm Gatorade story????
 
 
ESPNFL has a follow up coming where they reveal that the postgame spreads provided visitors in Foxboro aren't professionally catered!
 

Comfortably Lomb

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brandonchristensen said:
The fuel is everything that the Pats spent 7 months trying to shed with DFG was undone in one morning.
 
No one is reading past the headlines. Everyone just thinks ESPN just blew the lid off of the organization of the Patriots.
 
Brady was absolved for one weekend, and now will likely forever be tainted. Same with Bill/Kraft/etc.
They were already tainted and were forever going to be tainted. You were kidding yourself if you thought otherwise. The risk/issue here is that the angry, jealous, and possibly brain-damaged mob gets a step closer to a unjustifiable hate-fueled hanging one day. They would just love to see it happen.
 

nattysez

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nighthob said:
 
ESPNFL has a follow up coming where they reveal that the postgame spreads provided visitors in Foxboro aren't professionally catered!
 
They learned that one from the 2004 Red Sox - just ask Tony LaRussa.
 

Harry Hooper

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Bill Walsh was famous for having drawn up a list of 1st half offensive plays before the game started, but teams practice all week before the game. What would be the value in distributing to the offensive players a sheet of paper delineating their first 20 plays on it? The team is supposed to be prepared already.
 

brandonchristensen

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Comfortably Lomb said:
They were already tainted and were forever going to be tainted. You were kidding yourself if you thought otherwise. The risk/issue here is that the angry, jealous, and possibly brain-damaged mob gets a step closer to a unjustifiable hate-fueled hanging one day. They would just love to see it happen.
 
Yeah they were tainted, but you have to admit that the narrative had shifted to Roger and off of Brady and the team just a little bit.
 
8 years have come and gone since SpyGate, bringing it back up (WITH NEW EVIDENCE TO BOOT) just keeps the cheating in then headlines further...and now makes all non-Pats fans reconsider the 'post-SpyGate' record.
 

OnWisc

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brandonchristensen said:
The fuel is everything that the Pats spent 7 months trying to shed with DFG was undone in one morning.
 
No one is reading past the headlines. Everyone just thinks ESPN just blew the lid off of the organization of the Patriots.
 
Brady was absolved for one weekend, and now will likely forever be tainted. Same with Bill/Kraft/etc.
The Pats weren't shedding anything. Brady spent the last few months trying to shed his suspension, and he did.

Sports are entertainment and for the most part coverage of sports is entertainment too. Standards have been relaxed to the point that there's no point in espn NOT running a story like this. It's getting plenty of eyes and clicks and even if every facet of it is irrefutably proven to be false (which is impossible), in no discernible way will it ever harm espn.

We've got "reporters" acting perplexed that people are upset that they ran with false info, claiming that some of their content was just to troll fans, or not bothering to understand that "Kraft" can refer to multiple entities. That's simply the state of things. Aside from perhaps better editing, there's very little that differentiates the relevance of the "commentary" you see on ESPN from what you'd find on this or any other message board. These guys are reporters in name only.
 

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Hoya81 said:
The issue with the play sheet thing is that there is no way to prove that it is bogus.
 
The issue with ALL of the allegations is that there is no way to prove that they are bogus.  There's also been nothing revealed to prove they are true (outside of the "crime" of videotaping the opposing sideline from the wrong location).
 

AB in DC

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By the way, I read the SI article -- unlike the ESPN piece, the SI one is really very fair.  Mostly the focus is on how the Patriots have gotten into everyone's heads.  Lots of compliments toward BB and Patriots all the way through.
 
Let's not paint the two with a broad brush, please.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Harry Hooper said:
Bill Walsh was famous for having drawn up a list of 1st half offensive plays before the game started, but teams practice all week before the game. What would be the value in distributing to the offensive players a sheet of paper delineating their first 20 plays on it? The team is supposed to be prepared already.
 
He's also famously accused by Parcels for turning off the headsets during that time. 
 

Soxy

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jose melendez said:
I will say, if they were actually going into locker rooms and stealing play sheets, that's pretty fucked, but to be clear, they have literally no evidence as best I can tell.
 
Oil Can Dan said:
Having been in an NFL locker room on gameday morning up until game time I can say that there is no way to go into a locker room and steal a play sheet.  That's absolutely ridiculous.
 
Like someone else posted further up, I just don't get worked up about this crap anymore.  It's dumb.  But the above two posts pretty much spell out an easy way to counter any people who cry "Cheatriots."  And that's this:
 
If the Patriots have cheated so often, for so long, against so many different teams, then how is it that nobody ever finds any evidence that they have actually cheated?  Either they are some of the greatest master criminals of all time and are wasting their talents on the game of football when they should be, like, robbing banks or something.  Or these are all urban legends that just won't die because the Patriots keep on winning.  I'm an Ockham's Razor guy in most situations, so I'll go with the latter. Some want to say "Where there is smoke, there's probably fire," but if they've been systematically cheating in a myriad of different ways for 15 or so years, you'd think someone would have found some concrete evidence of such activities.  If the best things you can find are, "They were videotaping from an unapproved location," and, "They might be using balls that are intentionally underinflated by a slight amount," I can't really take any of your accusations seriously.
 
I think there's an interesting story to be told here about the different cliques and factions within the NFL, the power struggles between them, and how Goodell is caught in the middle while trying to please everyone (and generally failing to please anyone because he's largely incompetent).  But that's not really the story this article tried to tell, nor will that be how the Hot Takez sports machines spin it.  It's all going to be about the Patriots, and how they cheat and get away with it.  And don't think for a second that ESPN and the two authors failed to recognize that.
 
It's misguided to think the NFL was behind this.  Kenny is right: it's simply clickbait for ESPN.  Reporting facts is for suckers.  Nowadays, you simply invent the story that you know people want to hear/read, then twist the facts to fit that narrative.  Welcome to modern day "journalism."
 

Myt1

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bankshot1 said:
I'm confused, so does today's OTL rehash mean that ESPN can retract its 7 year too late midnight SPYGATE apology?
Twice. Hamburger octopus.
 

lexrageorge

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AB in DC said:
By the way, I read the SI article -- unlike the ESPN piece, the SI one is really very fair.  Mostly the focus is on how the Patriots have gotten into everyone's heads.  Lots of compliments toward BB and Patriots all the way through.
 
Let's not paint the two with a broad brush, please.
Except that the SI report brings up allegations such as the microphone system at Gillette that have never been proven with even the slightest shred of evidence.  And there is this one quote:
 

Those who say the Patriots are totally innocent ignore the facts. 
 
Is it as bad as the ESPN hack job?  No.  But that doesn't mean we have to agree with the premise of the article.  And the timing does not appear to be accidental.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Spygate is so tiring. I can't believe we're talking about it, but here we are. 

Instead of having more on the Pats/BB, couldn't Rog have been blocking Congress to prevent Pandora's box from being opened, showing how these shenanigans to get plays/playbooks/etc are widespread throughout the league? Goodell had just taken over as commish, the last thing he wants is a league-wide cheating controversy. It's possible he had more on the Pats and gave them a break, but history shows he's willing to drop the hammer when public sentiment sways a certain way, which it did against the Pats. 
 
The rest of the innuendo is sad. Whoever said upthread that the greatest trick Bill ever pulled was to convince everyone he's always cheating was right. Bad coaches with bad teams who can't figure out how to beat the Patriots just can't bring themselves to admit they were out-coached and out-played and are convinced they were cheated. But do any of them have any evidence? No. 
 
This article was absolutely timed for the start of the season (and alongside the SI article). The NFLHQ may not have expected Judge Berman's ruling, so this would have served as a way to ensure all non-Patriot NFL fans being just fine watching opening night of week 1 without Tom Brady.  Goodell looks bad here, no doubt, but as we just saw today, he's already willing to change his role in player discipline because "it's becoming extremely time consuming" (aka the owners are reeling him in). Comments about Goodell looking calm and cool in front of Specter but Pash was "sweating and squirming" also make me believe Goodell is trying to put this on a couple of his executives rather than taking the blame for Spygate and now Deflategate. It looks like he's willing to change his role to be reasonable, while also pushing the blame to a few underlings, in the hope that the owners keep him in his well-paid position. 
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Jets fans are bandaiding their decades of misery with this so-called report over at TGG.

It is literally justifying their team's never-ending failure.
 

nighthob

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lexrageorge said:
Except that the SI report brings up allegations such as the microphone system at Gillette that have never been proven with even the slightest shred of evidence.  And there is this one quote:
 


Those who say the Patriots are totally innocent ignore the facts.
 
Is it as bad as the ESPN hack job?  No.  But that doesn't mean we have to agree with the premise of the article.  And the timing does not appear to be accidental.
I mean it's probably technically true as every team in the NFL tries to get every edge they can, but the statement is misleading for the very reason that it implies the falsity of the reason that the claim is technically true.
 

soxhop411

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SeoulSoxFan said:
Jets fans are bandaiding their decades of misery with this so-called report over at TGG.

It is literally justifying their team's never-ending failure.
They banned like 8 "pats fans" from their site for trying to inject logic into the ruling last week.... its like NK over there... No opposing fans allowed
 

Harry Hooper

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AB in DC said:
By the way, I read the SI article -- unlike the ESPN piece, the SI one is really very fair.  Mostly the focus is on how the Patriots have gotten into everyone's heads.  Lots of compliments toward BB and Patriots all the way through.
 
Let's not paint the two with a broad brush, please.
 
 
??? Don't pat SI on the back too hard.
 
"But while the Falcons and Farmer took full responsibility, the Patriots never really have"
 
Pats suspiciously fumble less on the road. Wow, a team playing at home often in cold, inclement weather fumbles less on the road. 
 
Also no quotes from Matt Walsh about how no practices were taped or how no signals footage was reviewed during games, just this:
"Even staffers who were involved in Spygate didn’t fully understand its purpose. As former Patriots videographer Matt Walsh told the The New York Times in 2008, “They just told me to film the signals, pass the tape along to Ernie Adams.” 
 
 

TheoShmeo

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Super Nomario said:
Why is everything Belichick does because of his "hubris?" Honestly, this is one of the dumbest things in sports ever. As far as I can tell, he's less arrogant than most in his position. It's hubris because he doesn't talk to the media, even though every time the media writes anything it's 57 varieties of stupid?
 
The ONLY thing that I chalk up to hubris was continuing to use the cameras to capture coaching signals after getting the memo from the league.
 
My comment had nothing to do with how he talks to the media.  Or anything other than the continued video taping of the signals after being told not to. 
 

NortheasternPJ

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SeoulSoxFan said:
Jets fans are bandaiding their decades of misery with this so-called report over at TGG.

It is literally justifying their team's never-ending failure.
 
Don't forget the fact that Bill Belichick stood them up at the alter. That's gotta still sting. 
 

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I'm just going to leave this here.  It starts at the 20 second mark, when John Madden says: "They have 3 or 4 guys giving the signal, because usually when you play a team in your division they have films of the games, but they've also videotaped your signal callers."  This is from 1992.  
 
But now we're supposed to believe that videotaping defensive signals is a grave travesty of fairness and injustice that threatens the integrity of the game.  Right.  And again, that is the only thing that has ever been proven about the Patriots, and they admitted to it.
 
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_NT2LdlIkM&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
 
Hat tip to Matt Taibbi who tweeted this here.
 

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Soxy Brown said:
I'm just going to leave this here.  It starts at the 20 second mark, when John Madden says: "They have 3 or 4 guys giving the signal, because usually when you play a team in your division they have films of the games, but they've also videotaped your signal callers."  This is from 1992.  
 
But now we're supposed to believe that videotaping defensive signals is a grave travesty of fairness and injustice that threatens the integrity of the game.  Right.  And again, that is the only thing that has ever been proven about the Patriots, and they admitted to it.
 
 
Hat tip to Matt Taibbi who tweeted this here.
 
The first response to that Taibbi tweet is "Spygate was about the Pats illegally filming walk throughs. Not even close to the same thing".
 

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Harry Hooper said:
??? Don't pat SI on the back too hard.
 
"But while the Falcons and Farmer took full responsibility, the Patriots never really have"[/size]
 
Pats suspiciously fumble less on the road. Wow, a team playing at home often in cold, inclement weather fumbles less on the road. [/size]
 
Also no quotes from Matt Walsh about how no practices were taped or how no signals footage was reviewed during games, just this:[/size]
Clearly the Cheaty Cheatriots nefarious ways are on display here! They secretly deployed gameday personnel around the league to ensure that they can always deflate the ball! (In case that makes the ESPNFL OTL Ballghazi piece I apologize in advance.)
 

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As I said on Facebook, my favorite part of the story is when an anonymous source called the Pats "borderline non compliant " during the Spygate investigation. Isn't a simpler way to say that phrase "compliant"?
 

soxhop411

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  1.  
     
    What's striking about this supposed infraction is the absence of a major investigation. The New York Jets will "sting" the taping of play signals. The NFL will "sting" the deflation of footballs. But in this case, teams chose to create fake scripts instead? As hated as the Patriots were, it never occurred to anyone to put a camera in the locker room and catch this in the act? That's an oddity to me, particularly given how much gossiping goes on between NFL teams.
    While certain aspects of gaining an edge are taken as part of the game, I can assure you, the theft of materials like this is not. It's akin to Manning's fear about the Patriots bugging their locker room. It's that serious, and far outside the norm of what you will hear across the league. For all the bluster, the truth is that stealing signals isn't a massive outlier. For decades, advance scouts have used binoculars and notepads and furiously scribbled down formations in an effort to marry sideline signals and the resulting plays on the field. Even ball deflation is shrugged off in most quarters as being underhanded but not really a tectonic shift within a game.
    But stealing the future – you just don't hear that. There is no winking and nodding that stuff away. You can't just cluck your tongue and file it under paranoia. It's the worst allegation yet in this saga. And if it's something that truly happened, whoever did it needs to share that shame with the NFL, rather than unloading it in the media.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/latest-cheating-allegation-against-patriots-is-most-damning-of-all-180544622.html
LOGIC!
 

soxhop411

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drleather2001 said:
 
So you want Goodell to launch a formal investigation?  
If this was so "serious" we would have had an investigation already.... Its all bullshit.. 
 

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soxhop411 said:
If this was so "serious" we would have had an investigation already.... Its all bullshit.. 
 
That is not what your link is arguing.  
 
That article is saying there should be an investigation, because this is a very serious allegation, and the author is encouraging a member of the Pats organization to come forth and come clean.
 
And, frankly, I'll be shocked if the league doesn't use this as another bite at the apple vis a vis the Patriots.  
 

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soxhop411 said:
If this was so "serious" we would have had an investigation already.... Its all bullshit
 
 
No, because the NFL is reactive not proactive. The react to teams complaining about the Patriots. They react to videotapes when they realize the public has seen them.
 
They won't "react" to this until they see which way the wind blows.
 
 

NortheasternPJ

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Word from the NFL is they just hired the independent team of Marshall Faulk and Hines Ward to run the investigation.
 

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lexrageorge said:
Except that the SI report brings up allegations such as the microphone system at Gillette that have never been proven with even the slightest shred of evidence.  And there is this one quote:
 
 
 
 
For every anti-Patriots quote I can give you at least one pro-Patriots quote from the same article.  That's what I mean by balanced.  
 
Here's a few:
 


From Steve, Bill learned that if you take away an opponent’s strength, you will probably win. His ability to do that, along with Brady’s sustained excellence, have separated the Patriots from the rest of the NFL. And in Belichick’s world, no detail is too small, no idea too radical. “They do the best job, week in and week out, of coaching all the little things that make a difference in winning and losing,” says Hall of Fame executive Bill Polian
One person who knows Belichick well says he does not consider the coach “a cheat.” But he acknowledges that, while others might simply obey a rule, Belichick will search for loopholes and gray areas to exploit—he’ll “study it and take it to the nth degree.
“This guy is two steps ahead of everybody because he is so brilliant. If you’re going to walk the line, every once in a while you’re stepping over. Sometimes somebody has to pull him back in. In his mind, he thinks: I’ll get an advantage and somebody else can figure out if it’s illegal. My job is to coach a football team.”
 The NFL switched the language in its Integrity of the Game policy to the less rigorous standard of “preponderance of evidence.” In the legal world that means there is more than a 50% chance that something occurred. In other words, more probable than not—the key phrase in the Wells Report that Goodell used to justify his Deflategate crackdown. 
The league had engineered its code of conduct to make it easier to convict and punish the next perpetrator of a Spygate. It had also created a climate in which it was safe to make public accusations against the Patriots—no hard evidence needed.
 


In the post-Spygate NFL, it’s easy for the Patriots’ opponents to see—or imagine they see—planning in random events and conspiracy in coincidences. “I just know that every time we went up there, there was always something at our hotel,” says former linebacker Bart Scott. “It was always stuff like that with New England. You knew what you were going to get with them.” 
You will get uncomfortable. You will get suspicious. 
You will also get hit by one of the great winning machines in American sports history—four Super Bowl titles and the league’s best winning percentage (.759) since Brady took over as the starting QB in 2001.
 

Soxy

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The Social Chair said:
The first response to that Taibbi tweet is "Spygate was about the Pats illegally filming walk throughs. Not even close to the same thing".
 
Exactly.  The "Patriots are big, dirty cheaters" storyline is about 99% myth, rumor, urban legend, and flat out lies.  But an awful lot of people want to believe it, so it just continues on.  
 
Slate's Hang Up and Listen podcast did a segment on Deflategate a few weeks ago.  It's normally a pretty good podcast, with reasoned opinions and intelligent debates.  They had a seemingly intelligent guest on, who was a Jets fan.  Now granted, our first reaction would be, "Oh, a Jets fan on to talk about Deflategate.  That seems fair and balanced."  And it went pretty much exactly like how you would expect.  He's going on and on about how the Wells Report is rock solid, the science is solid, the conclusions are sound.... and it's just completely maddening to listen to this without anyone calling him out.  At the very end, in a rare moment of introspection, he acknowledges some self doubt that maybe, just maybe, the fact that he is a Jets fan who hates the Patriots may be causing him to see ghosts everywhere when it comes to his hated rivals.  But he ultimately discards that opinion, basically deferring to the "where there's smoke, there's fire" canard that I mentioned up thread, and then compares the Patriots to Lance Armstrong.
 
Willful ignorance and self-delusion are both very dangerous and affect a large number of people on this planet.  Unfortunately, you see otherwise intelligent people do the same mental gymnastics on issues far more important than football.  They pick a conclusion and work backwards from there, rather than examining the facts and forming an opinion based on their merits.  Most fans of the other 31 teams want to believe that the Patriots win by cheating.  So that narrative marches on.
 

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PC Drunken Friar said:
My favorite part of the SI article...the Seahawks were paranoid and went to great lengths to discover...nothing. So it must be proof that the Pats did something.
 
http://www.si.com/nf...y?xid=si_social
If teams are actually wasting precious preparation time on trying to preempt would-be Patriot chicanery, then there's at least one good thing coming out of all this.