Steve "Sucko" Lyons

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He made a comment along the lines of "Sabathia lost the equivalent of one of the Backstreet Boys over the winter" which I thought was pretty good.  ALl in all, he seemed much more comfortable than I expect for it being his first game.  I was expecting to hate him based on things I had read, mostly here, and didn't mind him at all.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I didn't think he was bad but I'm always amazed that networks can't do better than so-so.  Doesn't anyone interesting and talented want these jobs?
 
 
What's your definition of "interesting" and "talented"? Do you want Keith Law doing 162 three-hour plus games? Because while I think he's a very good baseball writer and obviously knows his stuff, if he's anything like he is on Twitter, I'd probably punt my TV by game two.
 
You know that we're not the target market for Red Sox broadcasts, so why would Boston (or any other MLB team for that matter) put on someone that is speaking over the heads of 95% of their listeners. Most people want to put the game on, relax for a few innings and see how the olde towne team is doing. They don't want to be bombarded with stats or snark or anything that really makes them think.
 
Color commentators are pretty fungible.
 

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I'm not exactly sure what you people want in your color commentator? 
 
Alex Speier.
 

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
 
What's your definition of "interesting" and "talented"? Do you want Keith Law doing 162 three-hour plus games? Because while I think he's a very good baseball writer and obviously knows his stuff, if he's anything like he is on Twitter, I'd probably punt my TV by game two.
 
You know that we're not the target market for Red Sox broadcasts, so why would Boston (or any other MLB team for that matter) put on someone that is speaking over the heads of 95% of their listeners. Most people want to put the game on, relax for a few innings and see how the olde towne team is doing. They don't want to be bombarded with stats or snark or anything that really makes them think.
 
Color commentators are pretty fungible.
 
That's fine, but I wasn't answering the question of who would be the best analyst for the average idiot sitting in his house in Nashua eager to hear how important RBIs are.  I was answering on behalf of myself.  I think that the basic requirements for an announcer are pretty simple- well-spoken, knows the game well, and adds something to the broadcast as opposed to idiots like Kay or Hawk or Staats.  I think that Lyons is perfectly adequate but nothing more.
 
To answer your question, I think that Darling is pretty good.  I thought that Tito was very good.  Leiter is above average.  Eck is very good.  They're all better than Lyons, but Lyons is better than a bunch of others.  In general I think we've all come to accept mediocrity for these positions even though they'd seem to be jobs that would attract top talent.
 

WenZink

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
.........
 
You know that we're not the target market for Red Sox broadcasts, so why would Boston (or any other MLB team for that matter) put on someone that is speaking over the heads of 95% of their listeners. Most people want to put the game on, relax for a few innings and see how the olde towne team is doing. They don't want to be bombarded with stats or snark or anything that really makes them think.
 
.....
 
I wonder what the percentage of the sox-game viewing audience "We" are?  Do you really thing that an intelligent approach would be speaking over the heads of 95% of the viewing audience?  Most of "Us" are in the coveted 25-54 demographic (I'm now in the 55-dead demo, but I know enough to lie on ratings diaries) and "We" are the most dedicated demo, watching the highest percentage of the telecasts. (Down 9-1 going into the bottom of the 9th, but Xander is due up.) 
 
What if NESN, once a month, ran an alternate telecast on NESN Plus that catered to "Us."  They could use the same camera feed, except when it goes to Don/Jerry, and "Our" announcers wouldn't even have to be in the booth, but could broadcast from NESN studios.  And they could gauge the level of viewer involvement by asking poll questions that "We" really could get into.  Instead of asking which Kevin Costner baseball movie is our favorite, they'd ask "Which opposing AL East manager is the biggest cock-sucker?"  I bet they'd get 10 times the responses.
 
The point is a typical Sox broadcast gets > 200,000 viewers, that's big enough to segment, on occasion, in order to get more information about their viewership.  Assuming it can be done cost-effectively.  Just an idea.
 

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Do you guys actually listen to every, single word on a broadcast? 
I do, although I'd rather have the ability to tune out the idiotic stuff - or just let the blather wash over me.
 
Unfortunately, my ears don't work that way. Every single word goes directly into my ear like an arrow.
 

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I wonder what the percentage of the sox-game viewing audience "We" are?  Do you really thing that an intelligent approach would be speaking over the heads of 95% of the viewing audience?
 
I think that we're a very, very small percentage of baseball fans. Have you ever heard sports radio callers, spoken to people in the office about last night's game, listened to people blather on in a bar? And I'm not trying to be exclusionary, because I love television and comedy, but if I was in Los Angeles and was talking about my theories on TV and comedy, I'm sure some guy more plugged in than me would be making that wanky-wanky motion with his hand behind my back.
 
You have to remember that it's a broadcast, not a narrowcast, so NESN (or ESPN or FOX or MLB Network) can't cater to you or us specifically. They have to remember that there are 8-year-old boys, 78-year-old men, 21-year-old women, whomever are all watching the game and may want to listen to a "personality" like Kay or Hawk or Remy do their shuffle rather than explain why a bunt is stupid in just about any instance.
 
 
What if NESN, once a month, ran an alternate telecast on NESN Plus that catered to "Us."  They could use the same camera feed, except when it goes to Don/Jerry, and "Our" announcers wouldn't even have to be in the booth, but could broadcast from NESN studios.
 
 
So hire two more announcers, open up NESN+ and broadcast it for the less than 5%? I may be wrong, but that's way too expensive for a good ROI for NESN. NESN knows that we love the Red Sox and we're going to watch whether they have Rob Neyer and Keith Law (or whoever) or Don and Psycho or two trained chimps hurling feces at each other. They aren't going to spend anything to bring us in, because we're already in.
 
 
To answer your question, I think that Darling is pretty good.  I thought that Tito was very good.  Leiter is above average.  Eck is very good.  They're all better than Lyons, but Lyons is better than a bunch of others.  In general I think we've all come to accept mediocrity for these positions even though they'd seem to be jobs that would attract top talent.
 
 
I think that this is the point. Lyons was perfectly average last night, he didn't do anything too stupid, his voice sounded pretty good, he (for the most part) did his homework. He didn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the game (unlike Nick Cafardo or Frank Viola -- who seemed nice and interesting enough, but his voice sounds terrible). And Darling, Tito and Eck are all very good, I agree but after awhile you'd get sick of the stuff that's coming from their mouths too. Fifteen years ago, Remy could do no wrong, now people want him out (before his son's prison sentence). Same thing with Tim McCarver. There aren't a lot of good color guys because it's a hard thing to do well and there's a certain shelf life. Because of that, I don't think that this job would attract the top talent that you think.
 
For one thing it's hard to talk about something every single day for three hours and be interesting and engaged and have something relevant to say. Plus, there's a lot of work that needs to be done prior to game time. Third, you have to have a talent for it (voice, poise, knowing when to talk and when to STFU), this isn't an easy thing to say. And most ballplayers when they're done have enough money to do nothing for the rest of their lives, why would they want to work hard at a gig that has a ton failures? You really have to think that you're something special to get in front of the camera day after day after day.
 

WenZink

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
 
I think that we're a very, very small percentage of baseball fans. Have you ever heard sports radio callers, spoken to people in the office about last night's game, listened to people blather on in a bar? And I'm not trying to be exclusionary, because I love television and comedy, but if I was in Los Angeles and was talking about my theories on TV and comedy, I'm sure some guy more plugged in than me would be making that wanky-wanky motion with his hand behind my back.
 
You have to remember that it's a broadcast, not a narrowcast, so NESN (or ESPN or FOX or MLB Network) can't cater to you or us specifically. They have to remember that there are 8-year-old boys, 78-year-old men, 21-year-old women, whomever are all watching the game and may want to listen to a "personality" like Kay or Hawk or Remy do their shuffle rather than explain why a bunt is stupid in just about any instance.
 
 
So hire two more announcers, open up NESN+ and broadcast it for the less than 5%? I may be wrong, but that's way too expensive for a good ROI for NESN. NESN knows that we love the Red Sox and we're going to watch whether they have Rob Neyer and Keith Law (or whoever) or Don and Psycho or two trained chimps hurling feces at each other. They aren't going to spend anything to bring us in, because we're already in.
.......
 
I think it's more than 5%, and I admit the audience percentage would have to be closer to 15%-20% to make it worthwhile.  The point is you can find out by doing one targeted telecast and have some set of audience-participation factors to gauge the viewership and determine whether or not it's worth continuing/expanding.  When cable was first introduced to Columbus, OH, 40 years ago, there was huge interest in the aspect of audience feedback.  Even before the internet and texting, they had some hokey feature where fat, beer-drinking slobs could weigh in on Ohio State football.  It didn't go anywhere, because the technology was so pre-historic, not to mention the concept was alien to just about everyone but Al Gore.  But I still think that the area of audience-segmentation is something that has been neglected, particularly in a market with so many avid viewers.  Maybe NESN should explore a special internet presentation of Sox telecasts?  If you had 30,000 dedicated, sophisticated (and I hate to use that word to describe "Us") Sox fans glued to the game for 3+ hours then that has to have a great deal of value to advertisers.  Purveyors of Asian porn would become regular sponsors, I presume.
 

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WenZink said:
 
Maybe NESN should explore a special internet presentation of Sox telecasts?  If you had 30,000 dedicated, sophisticated (and I hate to use that word to describe "Us") Sox fans glued to the game for 3+ hours then that has to have a great deal of value to advertisers.  Purveyors of Asian porn would become regular sponsors, I presume.
 
Thing is, no matter what percentage of the viewing audience "we" represent, we're watching regardless because our purpose is to watch the game, not be entertained by extras.  There's no incentive for them to cater to us if we're watching the broadcast no matter what they do.  Unless they believe that an annoying/boring/whatever announcer is causing us to turn off the game completely, why would they bother to lift a finger to appease us?
 
All the fluff (polls, interviews, guffaws) that they put in the broadcast, all the experimentation that they do with the telecast, it's all aimed at retaining the fickle portion of the audience that's channel surfing back and forth from the game and/or drawing in viewers that otherwise aren't tuning in at all.
 

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
Thing is, no matter what percentage of the viewing audience "we" represent, we're watching regardless because our purpose is to watch the game, not be entertained by extras.  There's no incentive for them to cater to us if we're watching the broadcast no matter what they do.  Unless they believe that an annoying/boring/whatever announcer is causing us to turn off the game completely, why would they bother to lift a finger to appease us?
 
All the fluff (polls, interviews, guffaws) that they put in the broadcast, all the experimentation that they do with the telecast, it's all aimed at retaining the fickle portion of the audience that's channel surfing back and forth from the game and/or drawing in viewers that otherwise aren't tuning in at all.
They have that mush-mouth guy(Uri Berenguer?) doing a spanish broadcast on radio, and it's not only to pick up a relatively small added number of hispanic listeners, but it's also because they become an efficient source for certain advertisers.  Why not a targeted telecast/broadcast/webcast for fans who don't speak Orsillo/Remy nonsense?  It's not so much increasing the size of the total audience, but segregating the various segments, catering to them and then, in the end increasing advertising revenue as well as some increase in viewership, overall.  
 
If you can get "Us" off the main telecast, then you can have even more Wally-sitting-in-a-lawn-chair nonsense on the main channel to keep the kids and mentally challenged glued to the sets.
 
And I suspect the polls are done for gleaning marketing info, not just providing fluff to fans of fluff... but I'm not sure.
 

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WenZink, I don't think that you're getting what RedHawks and I are saying; which is NESN doesn't need to have a "smart" broadcast at all because no one is not watching the Red Sox game because of the announcers. It's not a problem for them, so why would they change it? To appeal to the small minority of people who want a more SABRE-metric or smart baseball choice? This not a problem at all for NESN, we are watching the games.
 
Even when the Sox sucked in 2012, we were still watching the games. Others had moved on.
 
The problem that NESN faces is how to get people who aren't die-hards to tune in and keep watching the Red Sox even if they finish at about .500. That's why you see things like, the Poll of the Day or Meet the Sox (or whatever it's called). People who vote in a poll are more likely to stick around and see the result and Meet the Sox is a short-cut to give the players personality. Non-diehards (pinkhats, I guess) like players with personality or perceived personality. If NESN can get some part of their audience to connect with Will Middlebrooks because they both like BBQ tater tots or Grady Sizemore because their favorite book is "The Notebook", then that's another way NESN gets more eyeballs to the game.
 
As far as segmenting audiences, it sounds like a good idea but it's completely impractical. You can do that over the internet where you have as many streams as you want. But you can't do that over cable television as NESN has two channels and that's it.
 

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WenZink said:
They have that mush-mouth guy(Uri Berenguer?) doing a spanish broadcast on radio, and it's not only to pick up a relatively small added number of hispanic listeners, but it's also because they become an efficient source for certain advertisers.  Why not a targeted telecast/broadcast/webcast for fans who don't speak Orsillo/Remy nonsense?  It's not so much increasing the size of the total audience, but segregating the various segments, catering to them and then, in the end increasing advertising revenue as well as some increase in viewership, overall.  
 
If you can get "Us" off the main telecast, then you can have even more Wally-sitting-in-a-lawn-chair nonsense on the main channel to keep the kids and mentally challenged glued to the sets.
 
And I suspect the polls are done for gleaning marketing info, not just providing fluff to fans of fluff... but I'm not sure.
 
They have a Spanish language radio broadcast to reach more Spanish-speaking listeners...you know, people who probably aren't tuning in to WEEI for Joe and Dave because they don't speak or understand English well enough to follow along.  That's increasing their audience, not fragmenting what they have.
 
You're talking about them giving you what you want from the broadcast.  I'm telling you how NESN is looking at it.  They don't give two shits about what you want if you're going to be watching their telecast regardless of what they do.  Tune out, and get all of "us" to go with you and maybe they'll consider giving "us" an announcer-free broadcast or a nerdified broadcast team.
 

WenZink

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
.....
 
You're talking about them giving you what you want from the broadcast.  I'm telling you how NESN is looking at it.  They don't give two shits about what you want if you're going to be watching their telecast regardless of what they do.  Tune out, and get all of "us" to go with you and maybe they'll consider giving "us" an announcer-free broadcast or a nerdified broadcast team.
 
They don't give 'two-shits' unless they could see a way to make "four-shits" in return.  If I watch a Red Sox game with my laptop going back and forth to pitchf/x and the updates from the Sox farm teams, then they're losing money and not making money.  If it turns out that 15%-20% of their viewing audience is doing the same thing, then it becomes an issue of a lost revenue opportunity.
 
Tom Werner made most of his gazillions when top tv shows still got gargantuan ratings.  Now Mad Men rakes in a fortune from ads selling Mercedes to a much smaller, but much more targeted audience.  And I'm guessing Werner has a lot of input into NESN programming.  How much money does NESN piss away on their crap programming?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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WenZink said:
 
They don't give 'two-shits' unless they could see a way to make "four-shits" in return.  If I watch a Red Sox game with my laptop going back and forth to pitchf/x and the updates from the Sox farm teams, then they're losing money and not making money.  If it turns out that 15%-20% of their viewing audience is doing the same thing, then it becomes an issue of a lost revenue opportunity.
 
Tom Werner made most of his gazillions when top tv shows still got gargantuan ratings.  Now Mad Men rakes in a fortune from ads selling Mercedes to a much smaller, but much more targeted audience.  And I'm guessing Werner has a lot of input into NESN programming.  How much money does NESN piss away on their crap programming?
 
If you're watching the game, you're watching the game.  That's all they care about.  There's no way that they'll fracture their NESN viewership to make a pittance on an online stream, because whatever revenues they can make advertising on that stream is probably lost in terms of the drop in the ad rates on the TV side due to the loss of audience there.
 
Made more plain, if they're getting $50K for a 30-second ad based on current viewership, if you reduce that viewership by 15-20%, the ad rate is going to reduce to reflect that...say $40K per 30 seconds instead.  Now you have to make up $10K per 30 seconds plus cover the costs of the generating the stream (server space and bandwidth for that sort of thing can get expensive) with online ads.  All to appease and possible make an extra buck off of viewers that are already watching your show religiously.  Makes no sense.
 
And that doesn't even get into the aspects of MLB Advanced Media and their stranglehold on authorized internet streams of their games.  So they'd probably have to charge for the nerd-stream at the same rate as MLB.tv.  Making it a pay service is likely to push a bunch of "us" nerd viewers right back to the normal television broadcast anyway.
 

WenZink

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
If you're watching the game, you're watching the game.  That's all they care about.  There's no way that they'll fracture their NESN viewership to make a pittance on an online stream, because whatever revenues they can make advertising on that stream is probably lost in terms of the drop in the ad rates on the TV side due to the loss of audience there.
 
Made more plain, if they're getting $50K for a 30-second ad based on current viewership, if you reduce that viewership by 15-20%, the ad rate is going to reduce to reflect that...say $40K per 30 seconds instead.  Now you have to make up $10K per 30 seconds plus cover the costs of the generating the stream (server space and bandwidth for that sort of thing can get expensive) with online ads.  All to appease and possible make an extra buck off of viewers that are already watching your show religiously.  Makes no sense.
 
And that doesn't even get into the aspects of MLB Advanced Media and their stranglehold on authorized internet streams of their games.  So they'd probably have to charge for the nerd-stream at the same rate as MLB.tv.  Making it a pay service is likely to push a bunch of "us" nerd viewers right back to the normal television broadcast anyway.
 
I think you're missing the point.  And while it's been decades since I worked on media buys, the value of segmentation still exists.  And even in the times of video tape, advertisers were worried about how many viewers were watching during telecast hours and how many were taping to watch (or never watch) later, and it's much more critical in the days of DVR.  Devoted, start to finish viewers are the most valued IF you can figure out who they are.  In LA, Sports net will be telecasting the entire schedule in Spanish, instead of just close-captioning Vin Scully or whoever.  A lot of viewers, compared to the stat-geek segment, but they're still fragmenting their audience because they can make more money from two, fragmented audiences combined. And, as I noted, the AMC show Mad Men gets more for a 30 second spot than a popular network show like "2 Broke Girls," because of their demographic, even though Mad Men averages less than half the viewers.
 
It's not simple, but a one time, alternate telecast would be well worth it to measure potential.
 
Again, if we're talking about 5% of the audience, then it's not worth it, but if it's 15-20% then it's worth finding out. 
 

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Reverend said:
 
Alex Speier.
 
Really? I love him as a writer and on twitter, but his on-air manner on WEEI is really annoying. Not everyone's a broadcaster. 
 
WenZink said:
 
I think you're missing the point.  And while it's been decades since I worked on media buys, the value of segmentation still exists.  And even in the times of video tape, advertisers were worried about how many viewers were watching during telecast hours and how many were taping to watch (or never watch) later, and it's much more critical in the days of DVR.  Devoted, start to finish viewers are the most valued IF you can figure out who they are.  In LA, Sports net will be telecasting the entire schedule in Spanish, instead of just close-captioning Vin Scully or whoever.  A lot of viewers, compared to the stat-geek segment, but they're still fragmenting their audience because they can make more money from two, fragmented audiences combined. And, as I noted, the AMC show Mad Men gets more for a 30 second spot than a popular network show like "2 Broke Girls," because of their demographic, even though Mad Men averages less than half the viewers.
 
It's not simple, but a one time, alternate telecast would be well worth it to measure potential.
 
Again, if we're talking about 5% of the audience, then it's not worth it, but if it's 15-20% then it's worth finding out. 
 
We all understand the point you're making, but I find it doubtful that sabermetrically-inclined baseball fans are really a useful market segment.
 
What are you proposing to advertise to them? DVDs of Moneyball?
 

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nvalvo said:
 
Really? I love him as a writer and on twitter, but his on-air manner on WEEI is really annoying. Not everyone's a broadcaster. 
 
Did you hear him do color during that one spring training game?
 

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nvalvo said:
 
Really? I love him as a writer and on twitter, but his on-air manner on WEEI is really annoying. Not everyone's a broadcaster. 
 
 
 
 
We all understand the point you're making, but I find it doubtful that sabermetrically-inclined baseball fans are really a useful market segment.
 
What are you proposing to advertise to them? DVDs of Moneyball?
 
I'm guessing it's predominately male, 25-54, and with income above average and more higher percentage of professionals. Throw in the baseball obsession and you have an exceptional demo, assuming it's large enough.  I bet we have a very similar preference in beer/spirits, cars, escort services.
 

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I think a more realistic option is for NESN to produce a 30 minute show that caters to the more hard core segment of fans particularly once they roll out the on field tracking technology to all the clubs.  For example, have Alex Speier break down the five most important defensive plays of the week with a graphic that shows a player's route, batted ball speed, flight path, etc.  So much of this new data is going to have a visual appeal that really works on TV whereas listening to someone breakdown WAR might skew towards the painfully dry.
 

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CoffeeNerdness said:
I think a more realistic option is for NESN to produce a 30 minute show that caters to the more hard core segment of fans particularly once they roll out the on field tracking technology to all the clubs.  For example, have Alex Speier break down the five most important defensive plays of the week with a graphic that shows a player's route, batted ball speed, flight path, etc.  So much of this new data is going to have a visual appeal that really works on TV whereas listening to someone breakdown WAR might skew towards the painfully dry.
That's a start.  And I didn't mean to belabor the point, since it has nothing to do with Psycho or this thread title..  But the Sox may be missing out on something, and it would take just a small investment to find out what they're missing.  If you owned a basebal team and 80% of a sports network wouldn't you want to try something new.
 

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
All the fluff (polls, interviews, guffaws) that they put in the broadcast, all the experimentation that they do with the telecast, it's all aimed at retaining the fickle portion of the audience that's channel surfing back and forth from the game and/or drawing in viewers that otherwise aren't tuning in at all.
 
I find it hard to fathom that NESN believes people are surfing by and decide to watch the game because they saw "Wally's Wave" or Don's blurry, herky-jerky cellphone videos.
 
And if NESN is are going to continue with such nonsense, the LEAST they could do is show the entire game - and stop missing pitches. 
 

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Three years ago when the Sox were in Toronto and Remy became ill, Gregg Zaun filled in for a couple of games.  His was the most insightful commentary I've heard on a NESN broadcast, and some of his stories about his years behind the plate were quite colorful and humorous.
 
He might not have the Boston pedigree, but I'd take Gregg Zaun.
 

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Yeah, he's okay, but can someone tell him to SHUT UP!  I appreciate analysis and player experience, but you don't know EVERYTHING, Steve.  Give it a rest!  Whew.  Now I feel better.
 

WenZink

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Insightful and timely analysis by Lyons on Bradley's 2 rbi hit in the the 7th.  Before the hit. Lyons told us what approach JBJr should take vs a lefty throwing hard,, and after the hit showed us how Bradley did exactly that.  Lyons also did a nice analysis on Pedroia turning the DP the inning before.  Nothing earth-shaking but solid and accurate.
 

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He also said that Red Sox pitchers didn't miss a single start last year.
 

Homar

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WenZink said:
Insightful and timely analysis by Lyons on Bradley's 2 rbi hit in the the 7th.  Before the hit. Lyons told us what approach JBJr should take vs a lefty throwing hard,, and after the hit showed us how Bradley did exactly that.  Lyons also did a nice analysis on Pedroia turning the DP the inning before.  Nothing earth-shaking but solid and accurate.
I noticed this as well, and appreciated the insight.  He does know a good bit about the game, and on occasion deepens my understanding and appreciation of it.  
 
But the problem is that he just never shuts up.  He goes on and on, and Don encourages the endless prattle with incessant direct questions that Lyons can then "answer" even when he knows nothing.  I like announcers who give the game time to breathe, and Lyons almost never does.  Just shut up every now and again.  Silence is often a very good thing.
 

WenZink

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Homar said:
......  
 
But the problem is that he just never shuts up.  He goes on and on, and Don encourages the endless prattle with incessant direct questions that Lyons can then "answer" even when he knows nothing.  I like announcers who give the game time to breathe, and Lyons almost never does.  Just shut up every now and again.  Silence is often a very good thing.
 
But has there ever been any TV color man that you've liked, and continued to like after a dozen telecasts or more?  This point has been mentioned before in this thread.  NESN and every other teams' game producers aren't out to get "our" viewership.  We'd still watch even if they had Suzyn Waldman and her nephew Sheldon as the telecast team.  They're out to add casual fans to the base of die hards.
 
So what I look for insight from a color man to tell me something new (hard to do after 50 years of watching baseball) OR point out something that I might have missed.  Both Remy and Lyons do that, so that's goodness in spite of all the nonsense.  Eckersly apparently is liked by others on this board, but he provides less insight and more nonsense; "Paint!... Paint!...Cheese!... Educated Cheese!... Salad!..."
 

ForKeeps

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Homar said:
I noticed this as well, and appreciated the insight.  He does know a good bit about the game, and on occasion deepens my understanding and appreciation of it.  
 
But the problem is that he just never shuts up.  He goes on and on, and Don encourages the endless prattle with incessant direct questions that Lyons can then "answer" even when he knows nothing. 
This is a good point. I listen to music while watching the Red Sox, and I generally couldn't care less about broadcasters, but I like Remy when I do listen and one thing about him is that if Don asks him a question that he doesn't have a good answer for he'll just admit it, or he'll turn it into a joke or be self-deprecating etc. Lyons, like you say, thinks it's his job to just say bullshit as long as it sounds good. It's very transparent. Maybe it's something you learn as a national guy, to just be as phony as possible.
 

tomdeplonty

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I'm surprised anybody would take Remy over Eckersley. When Eck was doing home games for that extended stint a few years back, I thought he had a lot of interesting things to say, about pitching in particular, and the contrast with Remy - who most often would lazily paraphrase whatever had just come out of Don's mouth - was huge.
 

joe dokes

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ForKeeps said:
This is a good point. I listen to music while watching the Red Sox, and I generally couldn't care less about broadcasters, but I like Remy when I do listen and one thing about him is that if Don asks him a question that he doesn't have a good answer for he'll just admit it, or he'll turn it into a joke or be self-deprecating etc. Lyons, like you say, thinks it's his job to just say bullshit as long as it sounds good. It's very transparent. Maybe it's something you learn as a national guy, to just be as phony as possible.
 
 
 

I'm pretty sure Lyons has done his share of local stuff, but more to the point, is it possible that he's nervous, sittng in for a local legend? He's only done a handful of Sox games and his blathering might be a result of what a color man might call "trying to hit a 5-run homer in every at bat."  I really haven't seen enough of his games over the years to have any sense of whether that's even a possibility or if its just who he is.  I thought he was Ok for the 4 innings I watched last night (even more to the point, I suppose, is that I usually turn off the TV at 10 on weeknights and just listen to the rest on the radio while reading in bed.  I have pretty much given up caring who's doing the games on TV.  If they are particularly annoying on a given night, I turn it off.)
 
I understand the theory of "the casual viewer."  But are there such viewers for whom the presence or absence of "the stuff we hate" (for lack of a better collective term) will be the difference between watching and not?  I'm not a TV exec, but it seems to me that the deciding factors of such viewers would be 1)is someone in the home already watching the game; and 2)is the stuff the "casual viewer" would ordinarily be watching not on (a series in reruns, etc.)?  Is "Ohmygod its Steve Lyons/Tim wakefield/Mike Timlin/Alex Speier" a thing? 
 
I have a hard time imagining anything close to a significant number of eyeballs for whom "Don's Videotaped Stagger to the Booth" or "20 seconds of ogling the useless 'sideline reporter'" is a deciding factor for even one more second of watching.
 
OTOH--They could probably put the polls to better use, with multiple choice question topics such as "favorite porn stars,"  "most embarrassing places to vomit," and "painful medical conditions."  *Those* might keep some viewers tuned in.
 

Jnai

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It appears that Lyons views his job with a terminator-like mentality: he must identify silence and eradicate it. Silence is the John Connor of Steve Lyons' world.
 
He's not half bad, he just needs to calm the F down.
 

joe dokes

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Jnai said:
It appears that Lyons views his job with a terminator-like mentality: he must identify silence and eradicate it. Silence is the John Connor of Steve Lyons' world.
 
He's not half bad, he just needs to calm the F down.
 
So after they develop the robot umps, they can branch out into robot analysts, programmed to allow a certain amount of silence.
 
I'll be back . . . . . after this message from Sullivan Tire . . . .
 
But then the rogue robot Tim McCarvers will wage war  . . . .
 

HriniakPosterChild

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CoffeeNerdness said:
I think a more realistic option is for NESN to produce a 30 minute show that caters to the more hard core segment of fans particularly once they roll out the on field tracking technology to all the clubs.  For example, have Alex Speier break down the five most important defensive plays of the week with a graphic that shows a player's route, batted ball speed, flight path, etc.  So much of this new data is going to have a visual appeal that really works on TV whereas listening to someone breakdown WAR might skew towards the painfully dry.
 
Instead can we get a Sabermetric Audio Program by pressing the SAP button on our remotes? (Buenos Nachos, Amigos!)
 
WenZink said:
But has there ever been any TV color man that you've liked, and continued to like after a dozen telecasts or more?  
 
Sure. Jim Palmer, Jim Kaat and Orel Hershiser come to mind.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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WenZink said:
 
But has there ever been any TV color man that you've liked, and continued to like after a dozen telecasts or more?
 
Ralph Kiner. But granted, that was 40 years ago.
 
And yeah, Remy in the McDonough era, and for the first few years of Orsillo, was outstanding. Insightful and self-effacing in a non-shticky way.
 

BosRedSox5

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I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I love "Psycho" Steve Lyons. 

Maybe it's because I was a silly kid with a soft spot for bench players but I loved his antics on the field. Dropping his pants to brush out dirt, playing tic-tac-toe with Wally Joyner (and cheating!)... he's just a crazy meathead former ballplayer, who sorta sucked but still managed to have a nine year career in the major leagues. (Was defensive flexibility really at such a premium during the 80's and 90's?)

Anyway, I'm not saying he's better than Remy or Eck, but I'm glad he's in the booth. I think he's likable, tells funny stories, and Don seems to have great chemistry with him. 
 

Hendu for Kutch

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It seems like every time I hear him do a game, he says something remarkably stupid.  Last night he was suggesting that David Ross was attempting a safety squeeze with 2 outs and the bases loaded instead of the simpler and less absurd idea that Ross saw the defense back and was trying to sneak a bunt for a hit.
 
OK, crazy theory or whatever, fine.  Then the next inning he suggested that Bogaerts may have been sent up with the following plan:
 
1. Take a strike
2. Get one chance to swing
3. Bunt with 2 strikes
 
Which is just stupid on about five levels.
 

Cuzittt

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I thought his exposition of why they didn't pinch hit for David Ross was the real winner. He was sure to mention that the Sox would lose the DH. Certainly a relevant point.

However, the name Jonathan Herrera never came up despite the fact he was the only player left on the bench.
 

joe dokes

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Cuzittt said:
I thought his exposition of why they didn't pinch hit for David Ross was the real winner. He was sure to mention that the Sox would lose the DH. Certainly a relevant point.

However, the name Jonathan Herrera never came up despite the fact he was the only player left on the bench.
 
Of course, he didn't mention it until the *next* inning.
 
It seems like every time I hear him do a game, he says something remarkably stupid
 
 
This.
And its strange because he also says many things that are very not-stupid.  His explanation of why LHBs seem to have "prettier" swings was not something I recall hearing.  And he nailed the LF Upton playing too deep several innings before he clusterfucked Holt's bloop.
Ultimately, saying something stupid is the risk of talking too much, which we all agree is Lyons's biggest problem.
 
Remy is often criticized for doing little more than "telling us what we're (and he's) watching on the replay."  That seems to be Lyons's weakness -- telling us what just happened.
 

Rudi Fingers

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Reverend said:
 
Did you hear him do color during that one spring training game?
 
I heard Alex Speier do the color during that final spring training game, and I immensely enjoyed it.  He took an underwhelming, rain-shortened, minor leaguer-filled game and made it compelling to me (despite a few-too-many references to the Mayor's cup championship being on the line).  I thought his pacing and cadence was surprisingly good.
 
That being said, a lineup full of prospects is right in Speier's sweet spot.
 

tomdeplonty

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joe dokes said:
Remy is often criticized for doing little more than "telling us what we're (and he's) watching on the replay."  That seems to be Lyons's weakness -- telling us what just happened.
 
At one point he was marveling at how a foul ball bounced all the way to the ball girl. Crazy!
 
If he could filter out the inane stuff somewhere between brain and mouth, he might be pretty good.
 

Ed Hillel

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Did anyone else find his "people are always comparing Koji and Tazawa" comment a bit uncomfortable, given his...past? I don't think anyone that actually watches the two of them pitch would compare them much. I'll admit I do find Lyons entertaining, but much in the same way one of those SpikeTV "DISASTERS: CAUGHT ON TAPE" programs can be entertaining.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Yep.
 
Taz is a guy the Sox got as a young player, started out at AA, and have developed into a high-lev reliever after years of finding the right spot for him. He's 27, and is just now arb-eligible, not hitting free agency till 27. 
 
He was a starter in the minors, blew out his elbow, and managed to come back as a hard-throwing reliever. 
 
Koji is a guy who didn't even come to the U.S. until he was 34, was born in frickin' 1975, and has been a lights-out reliever since he entered the league, with a lifetime ERA+ of 186 and full years at 246, 252, and 379. 
 
I guess maybe because Tazawa has recently gotten the splitter figured out and they both are primarily fastball-splitter guys, you can make an argument that they're similar, but Taz is really a four-pitch pitcher in a way that Koji really isn't. 
 
Really, though, that's like saying people "are always comparing Jake Peavy and Brandon Workman" because they're both right-handed starters and lead with the fastball. 
 

Reverend

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The Safety Squeeze thing is a little more complicated if you roll it back and listen closely. It's not right, but it's more complicated.
 
Basically, right after he incorrectly says it's a safety squeeze, he points out that Pedroia was running with the bunt and and not with the pitch, which is why it was not a suicide squeeze. So it looks kidna like he got caught up in trying to explain the subtlety in the difference between the safety squeeze and the suicide squeeze which are frequently botched, but then yeah, he fucked up in saying that just because it wasn't a suicide it was a safety without realizing it could have been neither.
 
So on the one hand, he messed up. But on the other, it seems he was legitimately trying to explain a nuance of baseball terminology and strategy that is often messed up and, for that matter, was telling us about important happenings that were going on off camera which is good, imo.
 

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Rudi Fingers said:
 
I heard Alex Speier do the color during that final spring training game, and I immensely enjoyed it.  He took an underwhelming, rain-shortened, minor leaguer-filled game and made it compelling to me (despite a few-too-many references to the Mayor's cup championship being on the line).  I thought his pacing and cadence was surprisingly good.
 
That being said, a lineup full of prospects is right in Speier's sweet spot.
 
He also stops talking when play begins which half of the professionals can't seem to do.
 

LoweTek

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So on the one hand, he messed up. But on the other, it seems he was legitimately trying to explain a nuance of baseball terminology and strategy that is often messed up and, for that matter, was telling us about important happenings that were going on off camera which is good, imo.
Did someone from the team say there was no squeeze play on? If it could have been neither what is the other possibility of which you speak? The hitter did it on his own?

A safety squeeze is simply the runner from third takes off only after he sees the bunt successfully executed. (I would add and judges he has a chance to get in there safely). The play at the plate was actually fairly close.

Isn't a Safety exactly what happened? It's what I saw. I'd be a little surprised he did it on his own.

Are we complaining because Lyons did not mention the possibility it was done without a sign from the dugout/3B coach? What I am I missing?