Stop hoarding TP(E) - the what should the Celtics do with the TPE thread

What should the Celtics do with their TPE

  • Use it before the current season starts

    Votes: 6 4.6%
  • See what is available around the NBA trade deadline and level up for the playoffs

    Votes: 55 42.3%
  • Save it for next summer's free agent bonanza

    Votes: 69 53.1%

  • Total voters
    130

ZMart100

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Keeping Kemba may be the best option. It's going to take a lot of assets to move him. If you can get expirings, then you are left with a little more than the MLE in space to find a player, plus the TPE but few assets to get a high level player. On the other hand, the Cs can muddle along and hope for stretches of competency to happen in the playoffs, along with using some assets to fill the TPE or parts of it with roll players. Kemba will be much easier to move as an expiring. Hopefully a disgruntled star on a team going nowhere will want to come play with the Js.
 

BigSoxFan

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Keeping Kemba may be the best option. It's going to take a lot of assets to move him. If you can get expirings, then you are left with a little more than the MLE in space to find a player, plus the TPE but few assets to get a high level player. On the other hand, the Cs can muddle along and hope for stretches of competency to happen in the playoffs, along with using some assets to fill the TPE or parts of it with roll players. Kemba will be much easier to move as an expiring. Hopefully a disgruntled star on a team going nowhere will want to come play with the Js.
Problem is come playoff time, having Kemba getting hunted on every possession is going to be a real hindrance to this team. His shooting will come and go and the good shooting days will help to mask this issue somewhat but having an undersized, ball dominant PG is not a good fit for the Jay’s.
 

ehaz

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yea but our 1sts are so much more attractive now o_O

Danny is playing 3D chess
Rumor mill has it that Hawks want at least a lottery pick for John Collins.

Celtics might just be able to make that happen.
 

ZMart100

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Problem is come playoff time, having Kemba getting hunted on every possession is going to be a real hindrance to this team. His shooting will come and go and the good shooting days will help to mask this issue somewhat but having an undersized, ball dominant PG is not a good fit for the Jay’s.
Agreed, but giving up several drafts just to get rid of him now doesn't provide a path to a championship caliber team any sooner.
 

BigSoxFan

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Agreed, but giving up several drafts just to get rid of him now doesn't provide a path to a championship caliber team any sooner.
Realistically, I think this is something Ainge looks at this summer. Very small chance he’s moved during this season. He still has some utility, as we saw last game, but those good games are getting to be too infrequent.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Keeping Kemba may be the best option. It's going to take a lot of assets to move him. If you can get expirings, then you are left with a little more than the MLE in space to find a player, plus the TPE but few assets to get a high level player. On the other hand, the Cs can muddle along and hope for stretches of competency to happen in the playoffs, along with using some assets to fill the TPE or parts of it with roll players. Kemba will be much easier to move as an expiring. Hopefully a disgruntled star on a team going nowhere will want to come play with the Js.
Good to hear some logic here. Paying assets to rid of Kemba so the team on the floor is worse sends an awful message to Jaylen/Jayson and the rest of the team. It doesn’t make sense on any level to do this in-season when you are lacking quality backcourt depth as it is.......bumping everyone up a notch makes us worse, not better. The only way this would come close to making sense during the season is if another deal brought you back an upgrade on Kemba but I don’t see that happening.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I’m warming up to the idea myself. Yes, he’s redundant with Theis, but 48 minutes of Theis-like play beats 25 minutes of that plus 23 minutes of who knows what.
Is there any reason to think he’s available though? He’s playing really well on a great contract with 2 years left on it after this one, plus he’s reportedly a fantastic locker room guy for the young kids on that team, with deep ties to Cleveland to boot. From everything I’ve read, Koby Altman loves him, and given his value on that contract, I think it’d take real assets to pry him away.
 

PedroKsBambino

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One of the guys I mentioned early on who fits a "spend some now, stay under tax, spend rest in offseason" plan is Tomas Satoransky.

He's down to 20 min/game for Chicago and you have to think they are willing to move him. His defense has been ok overall (bad this year via RPM, but above average last year in a larger sample) and he's an interesting combination of 6-7, strong passing skills, and ability to play without the ball. He's shooting 37% for 3 career, better this year. Doesn't he slot in pretty nicely to the gap left by Hayward, while also providing some Kemba insurance as a ballhandler?

He's $10 mil this year, $10 mil next year so you get a little control at a reasonable price here too.
 

NomarsFool

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Is there an "Anthony Davis" type 'great white whale' for this offseason for Ainge? If he held onto the whole TPE, what's the best case scenario of some sort of actual Hayward replacement next summer? Is to use the TPE to pick up some awful contract that comes with a lottery pick attached (seems pretty unlikely). Is the hope that someone forces their way out of their current situation (e.g. Bradley Beal - which seems pretty complicated and unlikely given all the moving pieces that would have to occur to make the money work). Or is it picking some younger near-star that we hope will become one?
 

BigSoxFan

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Is there an "Anthony Davis" type 'great white whale' for this offseason for Ainge? If he held onto the whole TPE, what's the best case scenario of some sort of actual Hayward replacement next summer? Is to use the TPE to pick up some awful contract that comes with a lottery pick attached (seems pretty unlikely). Is the hope that someone forces their way out of their current situation (e.g. Bradley Beal - which seems pretty complicated and unlikely given all the moving pieces that would have to occur to make the money work). Or is it picking some younger near-star that we hope will become one?
Simple answer is no. LaVine makes $19.5M in last year of his deal. Not sure why the Bulls wouldn’t re-up with him but he’s basically the only guy who comes close. Rest are “meh” vets or guys who aren’t available. Odds are that we won’t even get a Myles Turner quality player in return. If anything, Ainge will use it on multiple, lesser players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/players.html
 

cardiacs

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I would take Horford back in a heartbeat for Kemba.

He knows the system, has the right attitude, and would likely accept his role.
This is all true for Kemba too, but I think Horford is one of the founders of the current Celtics psyche where Kemba never reached the inner sanctum. Most imporantly, he would be more useful in comparison to Kemba, all things considered. I think he would be a good influence on TL to boot.

I also want to note there are better players out there that might be available but as a fanboy I would be pretty happy to have Horford back on our team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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One of the guys I mentioned early on who fits a "spend some now, stay under tax, spend rest in offseason" plan is Tomas Satoransky.

He's down to 20 min/game for Chicago and you have to think they are willing to move him. His defense has been ok overall (bad this year via RPM, but above average last year in a larger sample) and he's an interesting combination of 6-7, strong passing skills, and ability to play without the ball. He's shooting 37% for 3 career, better this year. Doesn't he slot in pretty nicely to the gap left by Hayward, while also providing some Kemba insurance as a ballhandler?

He's $10 mil this year, $10 mil next year so you get a little control at a reasonable price here too.
Nice find. Satoransky always seemed like an awful fit on that team but is the type of combo-guard that Ainge has always gravitated towards (maybe bc that was Ainge in his playing days). Could def be a buy-low opportunity whose salary matches up well with trade partners over the summer as well.
 

benhogan

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One of the guys I mentioned early on who fits a "spend some now, stay under tax, spend rest in offseason" plan is Tomas Satoransky.

He's down to 20 min/game for Chicago and you have to think they are willing to move him. His defense has been ok overall (bad this year via RPM, but above average last year in a larger sample) and he's an interesting combination of 6-7, strong passing skills, and ability to play without the ball. He's shooting 37% for 3 career, better this year. Doesn't he slot in pretty nicely to the gap left by Hayward, while also providing some Kemba insurance as a ballhandler?

He's $10 mil this year, $10 mil next year so you get a little control at a reasonable price here too.
Nice buy-low candidate. I've been interested in Satoransky for years, even mentioned him before this season ;) Nice combo player, strong with the ball.

Agree that he'd be a nice bench PG.

Can't imagine his cost would be more than a 2nd or Edwards.
 

Saints Rest

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If DA could turn Kemba+ into Al, could he then manage to turn TT+ into Lonzo Ball?

The idea of a rotation of this seems pretty appealing:
Marcus, Lonzo, Jay1, Jay2, Al, Theis, PP as the core 7 seems pretty good. With GW, RW, and SO available to collect the matchup-dependent minutes.
 

NomarsFool

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Do you think it's a problem to have somebody on the same contract trajectory at Tatum from an overall cap perspective? If we are looking for another young up and coming player, it would seem maybe we should be looking at someone from the 2018 draft class.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Thought I would try my hand at illustrating what I think is an issue for Boston's front office.

Its quick/dirty and uses the interactive tool that BBall Index created for their LEBRON metric. I understand that there are flaws with the underlying data but regardless of what you use, the rough idea is to use a single player metric to compare the strength of teams.

In short, I took the Lakers, Clippers, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks and Celtics '20-21 LEBRON data to compare the value of their entire rotations (i.e. all players who average double digit minutes per game) as well as the top three players for the metric. Below are the results.

The take away is that while the C's clearly need help in their rotation, which has been objectively poor, they also need more elite talent if they want to contend for a championship. The key issue for contending, however, is how much difference there is between Boston's top players and the rest of these teams.

As stated upthread, my sense is with Brown making his leap, Boston should explore top end trade targets (and the chatter suggests they are doing this) to make up that difference. There may be no such deal available, the TPE may not be usable for certain targets and the Celtics may have other considerations from financial to coaching/chemistry that might preclude them from acquiring a difference maker. However its clear to me that the top end is where the focus should be. A player with a net LEBRON of 3 or higher makes this team very interesting come playoff time when rotations are much shorter and shot creation is a premium - if that player happens to be a big or a ballhandler, you can argue that there are compound benefits (e.g. the acquired player is presumably in a suboptimal situation at present, which depresses their production). A league average rotational player will certainly help the team near-term but isn't likely to change their current playoff trajectory.

The next steps for this team will be fascinating and its not clear why they would choose one path over another - adding rotational bodies or even doing nothing before the deadline could mean a number of things including that they think they have a shot at a Beal or other star player via a series of moves or maybe ownership doesn't want to spend right now. But its pretty clear to me that if they want to play with the adults in the NBA, the team is going to have to make some tough decisions with money and personnel. Likely sooner rather than later.


Rotation Top 3
MIL 5.47 11.59
UTA 11.86 11.22
LAL 6.4 10.69
LAC 4.31 10.56
PHI 2.01 9.14
BOS -4.84 5.33
 
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NomarsFool

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The Athletic had a piece on player tiers before the season started. They assigned points for each tier, this was their take at the end of last season:

  1. LA Clippers: 15.25
  2. Los Angeles Lakers: 12.75
  3. Houston Rockets: 12.25
  4. Milwaukee Bucks: 12.0
  5. Boston Celtics: 11.5

This includes the Celtics with Kemba Walker at Tier 3A and Gordon Hayward at Tier 4A. Obviously, they didn't truly have Hayward, but had he played, the Celtics should have been in the final 4-5 teams.

This year, obviously Hayward is gone and Kemba isn't a Tier 3A player. On the plus side, Brown is likely more of a 3A than 3C (top 24 likes of Kyle Lowry, Jamal Murray). They had Tatum at 2C, which is still probably about right, I think (top 16).
 

bigq

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Thought I would try my hand at illustrating what I think is an issue for Boston's front office.

Its quick/dirty and uses the interactive tool that BBall Index created for their LEBRON metric. I understand that there are flaws with the underlying data but regardless of what you use, the rough idea is to use a single player metric to compare the strength of teams.

In short, I took the Lakers, Clippers, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks and Celtics '20-21 LEBRON data to compare the value of their entire rotations (i.e. all players who average double digit minutes per game) as well as the top three players for the metric. Below are the results.

The take away is that while the C's clearly need help in their rotation, which has been objectively poor, they also need more elite talent if they want to contend for a championship. The key issue for contending, however, is how much difference there is between Boston's top players and the rest of these teams.

As stated upthread, my sense is with Brown making his leap, Boston should explore top end trade targets (and the chatter suggests they are doing this) to make up that difference. There may be no such deal available, the TPE may not be usable for certain targets and the Celtics may have other considerations from financial to coaching/chemistry that might preclude them from acquiring a difference maker. However its clear to me that the top end is where the focus should be. A player with a net LEBRON of 3 or higher makes this team very interesting come playoff time when rotations are much shorter and shot creation is a premium - if that player happens to be a big or a ballhandler, you can argue that there are compound benefits (e.g. the acquired player is presumably in a suboptimal situation at present, which depresses their production). A league average rotational player will certainly help the team near-term but isn't likely to change their current playoff trajectory.

The next steps for this team will be fascinating and its not clear why they would choose one path over another - adding rotational bodies or even doing nothing before the deadline could mean a number of things including that they think they have a shot at a Beal or other star player via a series of moves or maybe ownership doesn't want to spend right now. But its pretty clear to me that if they want to play with the adults in the NBA, the team is going to have to make some tough decisions with money and personnel. Likely sooner rather than later.


Rotation Top 3
MIL 5.47 11.59
UTA 11.86 11.22
LAL 6.4 10.69
LAC 4.31 10.56
PHI 2.01 9.14
BOS -4.84 5.33
Reducing the data to a single number is interesting. Your summary indicates that Boston’s overall roster is not good relative to the league’s top teams and also that Boston’s top three are nothing to brag about either. The roster conclusion makes sense and given Kemba’s start to the season the top three score does as well. Who is out there that could reasonably be brought in with a 3 or higher score? Separately Danny may want to play the cards he has been dealt and keep the roster as is with the expectation that Kemba will return to form and the Jays will continue to blossom. In recent years he has not made a meaningful move at the trade deadline and I won’t be surprised if this year he does not find a deal worth jumping at.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Reducing the data to a single number is interesting. Your summary indicates that Boston’s overall roster is not good relative to the league’s top teams and also that Boston’s top three are nothing to brag about either. The roster conclusion makes sense and given Kemba’s start to the season the top three score does as well. Who is out there that could reasonably be brought in with a 3 or higher score? Separately Danny may want to play the cards he has been dealt and keep the roster as is with the expectation that Kemba will return to form and the Jays will continue to blossom. In recent years he has not made a meaningful move at the trade deadline and I won’t be surprised if this year he does not find a deal worth jumping at.
Imo, Boston should continue to pursue whatever moves strengthen the rotation but if an impact player is available, my take away is that they should make a serious play for them.

It can be BPM or RAPTOR or whatever metric but the takeaway I get is they are closer to contending than we might think, especially of late, if they can add the right piece. Bolstering the rotation is not mutually exclusive and its not hard to see a ring chaser or two coming available when buyout season starts. Finally, if they do make a move, its not too crazy to see whatever youngsters who remain improving as well, especially as they aren't going to be asked to do as much as early in the season.

Edit: just to cover the Nets given that they are in the mix, their entire rotation is a net 2.6 and their big three sums to 9 which is in the neighborhood of the other elite teams.
 
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lovegtm

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Thought I would try my hand at illustrating what I think is an issue for Boston's front office.

Its quick/dirty and uses the interactive tool that BBall Index created for their LEBRON metric. I understand that there are flaws with the underlying data but regardless of what you use, the rough idea is to use a single player metric to compare the strength of teams.

In short, I took the Lakers, Clippers, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks and Celtics '20-21 LEBRON data to compare the value of their entire rotations (i.e. all players who average double digit minutes per game) as well as the top three players for the metric. Below are the results.

The take away is that while the C's clearly need help in their rotation, which has been objectively poor, they also need more elite talent if they want to contend for a championship. The key issue for contending, however, is how much difference there is between Boston's top players and the rest of these teams.

As stated upthread, my sense is with Brown making his leap, Boston should explore top end trade targets (and the chatter suggests they are doing this) to make up that difference. There may be no such deal available, the TPE may not be usable for certain targets and the Celtics may have other considerations from financial to coaching/chemistry that might preclude them from acquiring a difference maker. However its clear to me that the top end is where the focus should be. A player with a net LEBRON of 3 or higher makes this team very interesting come playoff time when rotations are much shorter and shot creation is a premium - if that player happens to be a big or a ballhandler, you can argue that there are compound benefits (e.g. the acquired player is presumably in a suboptimal situation at present, which depresses their production). A league average rotational player will certainly help the team near-term but isn't likely to change their current playoff trajectory.

The next steps for this team will be fascinating and its not clear why they would choose one path over another - adding rotational bodies or even doing nothing before the deadline could mean a number of things including that they think they have a shot at a Beal or other star player via a series of moves or maybe ownership doesn't want to spend right now. But its pretty clear to me that if they want to play with the adults in the NBA, the team is going to have to make some tough decisions with money and personnel. Likely sooner rather than later.


Rotation Top 3
MIL 5.47 11.59
UTA 11.86 11.22
LAL 6.4 10.69
LAC 4.31 10.56
PHI 2.01 9.14
BOS -4.84 5.33
Isn't this a roundabout way of getting at the fact that Brown and Tatum are fringe All-NBA guys, not inner-circle stars, and you need/expect them to develop further to have a chance?

Also (slightly contradictory)...with one more solid roleplayer, this exact team, worse Kemba and all, probably makes the Finals last year.

If Danny has a chance to mortgage the farm and add another All-NBA guy under 30, I think he'd do it, because that + Brown/Tatum puts you in in automatic title contention for the indefinite future. The problem is that I don't know who that guy is or how the Celtics get him.
 

ehaz

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How do we feel about Vucevic? He might be the only “all-star” caliber guy available.

But is he worth a Jrue like pick package?
 

lovegtm

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How do we feel about Vucevic? He might be the only “all-star” caliber guy available.

But is he worth a Jrue like pick package?
No. It's really hard for a center to be worth that kind of pick package.

He is good enough offensively, and the contract is declining, that I'd be interested at a lower price point.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Isn't this a roundabout way of getting at the fact that Brown and Tatum are fringe All-NBA guys, not inner-circle stars, and you need/expect them to develop further to have a chance?

Also (slightly contradictory)...with one more solid roleplayer, this exact team, worse Kemba and all, probably makes the Finals last year.

If Danny has a chance to mortgage the farm and add another All-NBA guy under 30, I think he'd do it, because that + Brown/Tatum puts you in in automatic title contention for the indefinite future. The problem is that I don't know who that guy is or how the Celtics get him.
I think Danny recognized all of this......the need as well as the problem acquiring that guy. Kemba was the closest option at the time. Some things work out while others don’t.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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How do we feel about Vucevic? He might be the only “all-star” caliber guy available.

But is he worth a Jrue like pick package?
I made my case upthread for the fit on paper - he checks a lot of boxes skill wise. The guy was elite two seasons ago but is stuck as the best player on a perpetually terrible roster. But he is showing some decline so if Orlando makes him available, what is his market? Maybe GS or Toronto swoops in but if not, the Cs might be able to pay a modest amount of picks plus bodies.

As for the picks, it feels like they should spend them in upgrades. They need proven talented reinforcements if they aspire to level up versus continuing to mine the middle drafts for rotation pieces. Its a risky gambit but it seems necessary given their window.
 

lovegtm

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I made my case upthread for the fit on paper - he checks a lot of boxes skill wise. The guy was elite two seasons ago but is stuck as the best player on a perpetually terrible roster. But he is showing some decline so if Orlando makes him available, what is his market? Maybe GS or Toronto swoops in but if not, the Cs might be able to pay a modest amount of picks plus bodies.

As for the picks, it feels like they should spend them in upgrades. They need proven talented reinforcements if they aspire to level up versus continuing to mine the middle drafts for rotation pieces. Its a risky gambit but it seems necessary given their window.
Yeah, there are just so many examples of teams successfully filling in role player vets around stars that you can’t let picks in the 20s stand in the way.

Everyone knows how the LA teams are operating, but Utah is also a good example of this: they got Mitchell and Gobert in the draft, but the most of the rest of the core is vets they acquired over the years.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, there are just so many examples of teams successfully filling in role player vets around stars that you can’t let picks in the 20s stand in the way.

Everyone knows how the LA teams are operating, but Utah is also a good example of this: they got Mitchell and Gobert in the draft, but the most of the rest of the core is vets they acquired over the years.
It will be interesting to see how UT does in playoffs this year. Yes, they are killing it in regular season and are playing great ball but will Ingles, BB, and Clarkson hold up - particularly defensively - in a series?

Also, looked at their cap situation. If they don't make any moves this year they will be over luxury tax and that's before Gobert's extension kicks in. Keeping Conley will be a challenge. If they don't win it all this year, they might be in the worst of all worlds - high seed, non-champion, repeater tax payor. And at that point, the Clarkson and Favors contracts don't look like such a great idea.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It will be interesting to see how UT does in playoffs this year. Yes, they are killing it in regular season and are playing great ball but will Ingles, BB, and Clarkson hold up - particularly defensively - in a series?

Also, looked at their cap situation. If they don't make any moves this year they will be over luxury tax and that's before Gobert's extension kicks in. Keeping Conley will be a challenge. If they don't win it all this year, they might be in the worst of all worlds - high seed, non-champion, repeater tax payor. And at that point, the Clarkson and Favors contracts don't look like such a great idea.
Unfortunately, this is the downside of the development curve the Celtics are currently on. At some point, you have to apply leverage to improve your roster - its almost unavoidable - and if it doesn't work, its going to really hurt. Its just the cost of doing business in going after a championship.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It will be interesting to see how UT does in playoffs this year. Yes, they are killing it in regular season and are playing great ball but will Ingles, BB, and Clarkson hold up - particularly defensively - in a series?

Also, looked at their cap situation. If they don't make any moves this year they will be over luxury tax and that's before Gobert's extension kicks in. Keeping Conley will be a challenge. If they don't win it all this year, they might be in the worst of all worlds - high seed, non-champion, repeater tax payor. And at that point, the Clarkson and Favors contracts don't look like such a great idea.
It may be a blessing to move on from Conley, who will be 34 next season, rather than sign him to a 4-year extension at big money. You are correct in that this is a team built for the regular season which you can say about any team that doesn’t have LeBron or Kawhi, prime Curry/Durant, etc.....they simply need Mitchell to make another leap into that stratosphere. Easy, right? Winning Championships in the NBA without one of the top 2-3 players in the league is next to impossible so I wouldn’t call the Jazz run a failure if they never achieve this. They are massive underdogs to do so.
 

BigSoxFan

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It may be a blessing to move on from Conley, who will be 34 next season, rather than sign him to a 4-year extension at big money. You are correct in that this is a team built for the regular season which you can say about any team that doesn’t have LeBron or Kawhi, prime Curry/Durant, etc.....they simply need Mitchell to make another leap into that stratosphere. Easy, right? Winning Championships in the NBA without one of the top 2-3 players in the league is next to impossible so I wouldn’t call the Jazz run a failure if they never achieve this. They are massive underdogs to do so.
Yeah, I like this team but I could see a 2014-2015 Atlanta Hawks postseason performance from them where they look good for a round or two but then run into an LA team buzz saw. It's going to be tough to get over that hump this year. One thing going for them is that Mitchell has a higher upside than anyone on that Hawks team so a leap is still possible. And if AD's achilles proves to be problematic, they'll have a real shot.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, I like this team but I could see a 2014-2015 Atlanta Hawks postseason performance from them where they look good for a round or two but then run into an LA team buzz saw. It's going to be tough to get over that hump this year. One thing going for them is that Mitchell has a higher upside than anyone on that Hawks team so a leap is still possible. And if AD's achilles proves to be problematic, they'll have a real shot.
I think they're going to meet DEN at some point and Jokic is going to do what he did in the regular season.... just stomp out Gobert and break the Jazz D in the process. So much of that team depends on Gobert discouraging drives, roaming the paint. Jokic scoring all over him, opening up other guys for layups because Gobert can't roam, etc.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It may be a blessing to move on from Conley, who will be 34 next season, rather than sign him to a 4-year extension at big money. You are correct in that this is a team built for the regular season which you can say about any team that doesn’t have LeBron or Kawhi, prime Curry/Durant, etc.....they simply need Mitchell to make another leap into that stratosphere. Easy, right? Winning Championships in the NBA without one of the top 2-3 players in the league is next to impossible so I wouldn’t call the Jazz run a failure if they never achieve this. They are massive underdogs to do so.
Depending on what Mitchell and Gorbet are making next year, they may be in the situation where they can't replace Conley's salary slot with anyone nearly as good as he is. I.e., the same situation that forced them to give Gobert his extension. Will be interesting to see how much appetite ownership has for paying luxury tax.

And not unlike what BOS has been going through, although I personally think that BOS has it better with its two young stars being wings rather than guard and center. I know some would disagree.

If anyone is interested, here's a deep dive into UT's salary cap situation for this year and next: https://saltcityhoops.com/reader-qa-as-jazz-secure-their-core-with-extensions-for-their-all-stars/
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think they're going to meet DEN at some point and Jokic is going to do what he did in the regular season.... just stomp out Gobert and break the Jazz D in the process. So much of that team depends on Gobert discouraging drives, roaming the paint. Jokic scoring all over him, opening up other guys for layups because Gobert can't roam, etc.
Maybe. Or they just focus on Jokic and make Jamal Murray beat them. I like Jamal Murray, but I'd take my chances. Denver needs a 3rd scoring option that isn't Michael Porter.
 

Cellar-Door

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Maybe. Or they just focus on Jokic and make Jamal Murray beat them. I like Jamal Murray, but I'd take my chances. Denver needs a 3rd scoring option that isn't Michael Porter.
I mean, if they want to double Jokic they can try, he's shredded teams with his passing when they do that, but DEN is loaded with guys who shoot 37-41% from 3, and that's what murdered a lot of teams last year against various good shooting opponents, doubling on the block and getting buried with wide open 3s from good shooters
 

HomeRunBaker

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Depending on what Mitchell and Gorbet are making next year, they may be in the situation where they can't replace Conley's salary slot with anyone nearly as good as he is. I.e., the same situation that forced them to give Gobert his extension. Will be interesting to see how much appetite ownership has for paying luxury tax.
How high is the bar to replace Conley’s age 34-37 seasons through? For Mitchell to be “that guy” the Jazz need him to be they may not be all that bad off with a less expensive replacement if the fit is there.
 

Cellar-Door

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How high is the bar to replace Conley’s age 34-37 seasons through? For Mitchell to be “that guy” the Jazz need him to be they may not be all that bad off with a less expensive replacement if the fit is there.
Who knows, but I think the question isn't that, it's... you're a contender this year in large part because Mike Conley is playing at an All-Star level. In fact there is a decent case that he's been their best player this year. Once he's gone the ceiling on that team goes down a whole lot, and so how do they replace the PG production. Gobert/Mitchell is not getting it done, even if Mitchell takes another step, they need at least 1 more top talent and I'm not seeing where that comes from.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Who knows, but I think the question isn't that, it's... you're a contender this year in large part because Mike Conley is playing at an All-Star level. In fact there is a decent case that he's been their best player this year. Once he's gone the ceiling on that team goes down a whole lot, and so how do they replace the PG production. Gobert/Mitchell is not getting it done, even if Mitchell takes another step, they need at least 1 more top talent and I'm not seeing where that comes from.
Team doesn't even have all that much youth to dream on either.
 

Cellar-Door

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Team doesn't even have all that much youth to dream on either.
Yeah their draft was rough.... traded down from 23 for 27 and 38 took Azubuike and then sold 38 for cash. That tells me what the willingness of the owners to spend is going to be (none), they'll make their run this year, then slowly bleed out over the rest of the Gobert contract.

Edit- imagine how much better their future looks if they took Quickley or PP at 23, instead of a G-League stash PF.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Who knows, but I think the question isn't that, it's... you're a contender this year in large part because Mike Conley is playing at an All-Star level. In fact there is a decent case that he's been their best player this year. Once he's gone the ceiling on that team goes down a whole lot, and so how do they replace the PG production. Gobert/Mitchell is not getting it done, even if Mitchell takes another step, they need at least 1 more top talent and I'm not seeing where that comes from.
I dunno about that. Since he’s been out they have won 5 in a row, four of them over playoff teams. by a combined 66 points. He’s been very good but I disagree on his impact as he hasn’t been missed at all.......they are so much more then Mitchell and Gobert now that Ingles and Clarkson have risen their games.

Edit: I’m as big a Quickley fan as anyone but he wouldn’t see the floor if he was selected by the Jazz. Not guaranteeing a multi-year contract for a rookie not likely to help doesn’t send any message other than that roster spot will be saved for a veteran FA or deadline vet pickup. It’s a common play among contenders.
 
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Cellar-Door

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I dunno about that. Since he’s been out they have won 5 in a row, four of them over playoff teams. by a combined 66 points. He’s been very good but I disagree on his impact as he hasn’t been missed at all.......they are so much more then Mitchell and Gobert now that Ingles and Clarkson have risen their games.

Edit: I’m as big a Quickley fan as anyone but he wouldn’t see the floor if he was selected by the Jazz. Not guaranteeing a multi-year contract for a rookie not likely to help doesn’t send any message other than that roster spot will be saved for a veteran FA or deadline vet pickup. It’s a common play among contenders.
They did guarantee a multi-year deal to a rookie (Azubuuike), they just traded to a later spot so they could get a 2nd to sell for cash. A tradedown for cash tells me the owners are very concerned about money. If they traded out of the 1st entirely and didn't pick anyone sure, but trading down and then selling the asset you got for cash..... yeah the only reason you do that is your owner being cheap.
 

benhogan

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They did guarantee a multi-year deal to a rookie (Azubuuike), they just traded to a later spot so they could get a 2nd to sell for cash. A tradedown for cash tells me the owners are very concerned about money. If they traded out of the 1st entirely and didn't pick anyone sure, but trading down and then selling the asset you got for cash..... yeah the only reason you do that is your owner being cheap.
Probably one of the poorer NBA billionaire owners :oops:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Smith_(businessman)
 

HomeRunBaker

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They did guarantee a multi-year deal to a rookie (Azubuuike), they just traded to a later spot so they could get a 2nd to sell for cash. A tradedown for cash tells me the owners are very concerned about money. If they traded out of the 1st entirely and didn't pick anyone sure, but trading down and then selling the asset you got for cash..... yeah the only reason you do that is your owner being cheap.
All the more reason to not lock in a second rookie contract IMO. Whoever was picked wasn’t going to play in their minds and I don’t think they were wrong.
 

Cellar-Door

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All the more reason to not lock in a second rookie contract IMO. Whoever was picked wasn’t going to play in their minds and I don’t think they were wrong.
Where is the 2nd rookie deal?

The point was they had the 23rd pick. They traded down to 27 which makes zero roster differential, to get 38, which they then sold.
There is no reason to make that move except to get cash. You don't change your roster flexibility at all, you just get cash and watch 4 players go off the board.
 

128

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Big in the sense that he played a lot of minutes and took a lot of shots.
His 3-point shooting wasn't great, but he was 11 for 21 from the floor overall.

25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals in 35 minutes.

I guess when you've been watching the Celtics dominate opponents this season, such numbers don't move the needle.
 

CSteinhardt

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His 3-point shooting wasn't great, but he was 11 for 21 from the floor overall.

25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals in 35 minutes.

I guess when you've been watching the Celtics dominate opponents this season, such numbers don't move the needle.
That also includes scoring the last 8 points of the game in what was still an 8 point loss.
 

128

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That also includes scoring the last 8 points of the game in what was still an 8 point loss.
So, he's no good?

I'm talking about upgrading the bench for what could be modest expense, not transforming the team into a title contender.
 
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