I subscribe to this newsletter and that's why I never pass when any clock is under 10 seconds. /Marcus Smart
Tatum got the bag(5 years, $195 million)
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
I just looked up some other dudes to get a sense. 151 does semm like a lot. And the 31% is bad
63/110 luka
21/41 beal
18/43 PG
52/124 kawhi
19/48 butler
46/103 lebron
51/107 booker
I'd be curious if they consider is step back a "fadeaway." It's a very different shot than the fadeaway when he's backed into someone and pulls the one foot, Larry Bird fadeway.
If the step back counts as a fadeway, I'd suspect Curry and Harden's numbers must be pretty high on those attempts.
A step back does not count as a fadeaway.
Tatum was 66 of 155 on step backs (41 of 107 from 3).
He was 22 of 84 on fadeaways and 25 of 67 on turnaround fadeaways.
It's a low percentage shot, but you'd have to look at each one in combination with the shot clock to really decide how bad of a shot it was... which is entirely doable on nba.com.
I think it's entirely uncontroversial to say that the Celtics would get better shots if Tatum were a more willing and able passer. Same deal x2 with Brown.
Edit: Going through the attempts, I'd say a few step backs do get misclassified as fadeaways, but if anything that improved his fadeaway percentage.
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Appreciate it, thanks Steve. That's a lot of fadeways...
And just because no thread can have too much of the Legend:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtpjCnOoO1Y
I mean...you can watch film. Guys guard him very tightly to crowd that shot, and are clearly worried about it.
I agree the volume could be dialed down to some degree.
As Karalis wrote last month:
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/26/karalis-jayson-tatum-bad-isolation-basketball-needs-stop
I think any implication that he is a selfish, not team-oriented basketball player is wrong, IMO. He's young and still has a lot to learn - even though he has already made tremendous strides since getting to the NBA.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/26/karalis-jayson-tatum-bad-isolation-basketball-needs-stop
He needs to become less reliant on isolations. But I think what this really indicates is that he needs to develop other parts of his offensive game.
I think any implication that he is a selfish, not team-oriented basketball player is wrong, IMO. He's young and still has a lot to learn - even though he has already made tremendous strides since getting to the NBA.
Should have kept Wanamaker and Kanter too, would have fixed everything.You mean like Jeff Teague and TT?
I think the issue is that we all know he CAN do it. Tatum is a gifted passer and when he tries to get teammates invovled, the offense looks very good. I don’t know if he’s selfish or not team oriented but there are clearly stretches of most games (not all of them) where he goes into “Mamba Mode” and the ball gets sticky with him.
Lots of pounding the ball, no quick decision and the entire arena knows he’s going to shoot the ball.
To be clear, I think he will improve on this. It’s just something he needs to focus on and consciously try to do. It’s sort of like how his shot profile sucked one year and then he and Hanlon consciously worked to change it
It is interesting to read so many posts in so many threads about how so many players on the roster have disappointed this season—Smart, TT, Romeo, GW, Teague, and on and on—and then find so little acknowledgment of that fact in this discussion about the team’s very best player. To my eye, Tatum shares the ball willingly with Jaylen and Kemba, and even, to some degree, with PP and TL. (Your eyelage may vary.) But it is my sense that he shares this board’s general feelings about much of the rest of the roster. This would hardly make him the first alpha scorer to lack confidence in many of his teammates, and, generally speaking, NBA teams have done the smart thing in these situations and remade their roster to better suit their top dog. I expect that we will begin to see such a move this offseason and we won’t hear much about Tatum the reluctant passer or Mamba reincarnation next season.
When are the All-NBA teams announced? I kind of want Tatum to not make it so that is motivated to work even harder this offseason. A guy can't have too much individual success too early in his career
Next couple of days, and based on the link below, he likely isn’t making it. I thought he was close to a lock after they won the 6 straight games, but the 5-10 finish definitely cost him some. He seems like the type who will respond well to this, will play pissed off.When are the All-NBA teams announced? I kind of want Tatum to not make it so that is motivated to work even harder this offseason. A guy can't have too much individual success too early in his career
View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#
My bad, should have pointed out that there’s a tab that has tracked the all nba votes as well, at the bottom of the chart. He’s gotten the 3rd least amount of votes at forward so far.
Can you prove that this is different from any other alpha scorer? We notice this because we watch all of his games.
Yeah that was a bold move. Interesting to think of where the Celtics franchise would be if Danny had kept the first spot and selected Fultz.
This game deserves to be commemorated. Two charts to illustrate the offensive brilliance we witnessed this evening. Damn.
It's amazing how diverse Tatum's game is getting, and how much room he has to grow it further. He's not getting these 50 point games by going 9/14 from 3 or something--he's scoring from everywhere on the floor, in every way, and drawing lots more fouls as well.
Whoever made the Bird comparison (Reggie maybe), I see more similarities there as this year goes on. His bag of tricks is immense and growing, and he really knows how to work a matchup. He takes what the defense gives him, and he can just carry a team on his back. It's a joy to watch.
I’m 38. Tatum is the most talented scorer in a Celtics uniform that I’ve ever seen and he’s only 23.
Four 50+ games in 50 days.
1T. Larry Bird, 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum, 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale, 56, 3/3/1985
4. John Havlicek, 54, 4/1/1973 (playoffs)
5T. Bird, 53, 3/30/1983
5T. Isaiah Thomas, 53, 5/2/2017 (playoffs)
5T. Tatum, 53, 4/9/2021
8. Thomas, 52, 12/30/2016
9T. Sam Jones, 51, 10/29/1965
9T. Jones, 51, 3/28/1967 (playoffs)
9T. Ray Allen, 51, 4/30/2009 (playoffs)
12T. Bob Cousy, 3/21/1953 (playoffs)
12T. Bird, 50, 3/10/1986
12T. Bird, 50, 11/10/1989
12T. Paul Pierce, 50, 2/15/2006
12T. Tatum, 50, 5/18/2021 (play in game)
12T. Tatum, 50, 5/28/2021 (playoffs)
Only 2 Celtics have done it more than twice: Bird (4) and Tatum (4). Only 9 Celtics have scored 50+ more than once. And IT is the only other guy to do it twice in one season before Tatum. Sam Jones is the youngest Celtic to go for 50, but Tatum is the youngest to do it more than once.
1T. Larry Bird, 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum, 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale, 56, 3/3/1985
4. John Havlicek, 54, 4/1/1973 (playoffs)
5T. Bird, 53, 3/30/1983
5T. Isaiah Thomas, 53, 5/2/2017 (playoffs)
5T. Tatum, 53, 4/9/2021
8. Thomas, 52, 12/30/2016
9T. Sam Jones, 51, 10/29/1965
9T. Jones, 51, 3/28/1967 (playoffs)
9T. Ray Allen, 51, 4/30/2009 (playoffs)
12T. Bob Cousy, 3/21/1953 (playoffs)
12T. Bird, 50, 3/10/1986
12T. Bird, 50, 11/10/1989
12T. Paul Pierce, 50, 2/15/2006
12T. Tatum, 50, 5/18/2021 (play in game)
12T. Tatum, 50, 5/28/2021 (playoffs)
Only 2 Celtics have done it more than twice: Bird (4) and Tatum (4). Only 9 Celtics have scored 50+ more than once. And IT is the only other guy to do it twice in one season before Tatum. Sam Jones is the youngest Celtic to go for 50, but Tatum is the youngest to do it more than once.
I’ve been really impressed at his ability to draw fouls now when there is no easy shot to take. More and more the Celtics look to him to create, the other team KNOWS it’ll be up to him and he can either create a great look or drive and get fouled. Many times last night the Nets cut the lead to 4-7 points and Tatum would respond. Really impressive given how young he is.
Now if the talent around him could just get healthy for once in his career...
Now if the talent around him could just get healthy for once in his career...
this article on JT - https://sports.yahoo.com/jayson-tatum-is-the-nb-as-next-great-scoring-legend-070424125.html - raises an interesting question. Will JT win more or less than 1.5 scoring titles? Author has the over and I think that is correct.
Two other interesting facts from the article:
and
Two other interesting facts from the article:
Kobe Bryant's January 2006 and Harden's January 2019 are considered the benchmarks for scoring streaks since Michael Jordan's retirement. Both averaged better than 43 points per game on those runs, which each included three 50-point games. They were 27 and 29 years old at the time, respectively.
Tatum has now hit 50 three times in the past month, two of them high-pressure postseason games. His average in that span does not approach 40, mainly because of a pair of nine-point stinkers — including one in Game 2 of this series. Consistency is all that is standing in his way and what ultimately makes Boston's odds so long. If Jaylen Brown were healthy for the Celtics, this series would be a lot more interesting.
But Boston can take solace in knowing Tatum is already capable of scoring with the greats and has room to improve. You can tell when he is on one, because he barrels to the rim with aggression, tucks the ball under his right arm through traffic and draws contact from players fearful he might get something easy. Tatum has taken 15 or more free throws on four occasions this season and has scored 50 in each of them. He is averaging 40 points when he gets to the line at least 10 times. Tatum needs to make that a nightly mission.
and
Tatum's 50 points on Friday pushed his career playoff scoring total over 1,000 points, and that excludes the 50 he had in the play-in game. Only four players in NBA history have reached that milestone before turning 24: Bryant, Durant, LeBron James and Tony Parker. It took 61 games for Parker to get there, 57 for Bryant and 37 apiece for Durant and James. Tatum just played his 48th career playoff game. This is his company.
Bird had four 50 points in six years. Tatum has four 50 point games in 50 days, at the age Bird was trying to bang co-eds with Farrah Fawcett hairdos at the dorm.
The Tatum criticism from the Boston media is ridiculous. Tatum is on a HOF track, and has 27 playoff wins and 5 series wins by his age 22 season.
The Tatum criticism from the Boston media is ridiculous. Tatum is on a HOF track, and has 27 playoff wins and 5 series wins by his age 22 season.
Also, scoring titles in the NBA aren't like home run or batting average titles in baseball.
So much is dependent on your teammates, coach, team philosophy etc. The "best" scorer is no lock to ever win a scoring title.
I'm optimistic Tatum will be in that upper echelon group of scorers over the next decade, but the number of scoring titles he actually wins has a lot to do with things beyond his control.
They were never drafting Fultz, Ainge was very clear at the time that they only made the deal because the guy they wanted would be there at three. As much as Langford’s been a disappointment, he was just a throw in for Boston doing what they were going to do anyway.
I’m sure you are right but how did Ainge have complete certainty that Tatum would still be there at three? I guess he was pretty sure that Fultz was going first to Philadelphia and it looked like the Lakers were leaning toward Ball but either team could have grabbed Tatum and I am frightened to think of him in one of those uniforms. Either team would be a clear #1 team in the league with Tatum on their roster.
Tatum would 100% be in New Orleans at this point had he been drafted by the Lakers. If everything else stayed the same, Tatum/Zion (and maybe Ingram) would be a tremendous young core.
Philly on the other hand, Tatum/Simmons/Embiid would be the best young trio since Westbrook/Harden/Durant. Not as high scoring and I wouldn't bet on all three winning MVPs, but the former would fit better and be an absolute terror defensively (also, that's a giant group). Plus maybe instead of trading for then paying Tobias Harris (no need for a big SF with Tatum in the fold), Philly is able to convince Butler to stay and actually afford to pay him. Good lord would that be something.
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Big Under for me. Tatum isn’t going to have this type of consistent usage with Jaylen in the lineup.
It was widely known that the Lakers were either drafting Ball or trading down with Sacramento in a deal around Fox (for the Kings to draft Ball). They hadn’t even pursued bringing Tatum in for a workout until the Fox talks heated up in case Tatum got past Phoenix at 4 and I don’t believe they ever did bring him in.
Esst coast fans don’t have any idea how huge Ball was out west at the time. I was out in Vegas when summer league was starting up. Never before had a summer league session at UNLV been sold out......Ball’s game was sold out the night before when seemingly every Laker fan in LA came into Vegas the day before.
This is a good point, but it's worth keeping in mind that Durant won 4 scoring titles in 5 years playing alongside Westbrook. Granted Westbrook wasn't the same player he is today (over those 5 years, Westbrook averaged just 21 ppg), but when there's a clear pecking order it's possible to win a scoring title alongside another high volume scorer. Hell, Beal came up just short this year while sharing a backcourt with Westbrook, even as the latter was 10th in the league in FGA (Jaylen was 13th).
100% right on Ball. It's easy to forget now but the hype was massive and the Lakers were an absolute lock to take Ball.
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Re Ball: he was also the darling of nearly all quantitative draft analysts. There was a lot of "historically great prospect" stuff being thrown around.
This is a topic for another day, and it's hard to do without devolving into digging up gotcha posts, but it's pretty fascinating how much a player's later trajectory colors what we "remember" about their earlier career.
Lonzo had some question marks, but the consensus was that he was a stud, and nobody remotely thought the Lakers would draft Tatum.
To get a feeling of how people thought of Tatum, imagine a healthy MPJ with more question marks about the 3-ball. Heck, it took until Tatum's 3rd (!!) year for people like Nate Duncan to move much beyond that.
I suspect that the deal hinged on Ainge’s evaluation of Philly’s intentions. LA had already given a promise to Lonzo.
Large Collar was drooling over Fultz pre-trade and Magic had basically started adoption papers for the Lonz months before the draft.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-markelle-fultz-pre-draft-workout-notes-2017-nba-draft-rumors/
Even without chairs, he couldn't hit an open jumper
red alert: “I got to get a cheesesteak, I’m big on that.”
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UVOBI8W3j0
https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-markelle-fultz-pre-draft-workout-notes-2017-nba-draft-rumors/
Even without chairs, he couldn't hit an open jumper
red alert: “I got to get a cheesesteak, I’m big on that.”
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UVOBI8W3j0
Tatum was the high floor, low ceiling safe pick. And there were some stories (probably not true) that the C's may have preferred Josh Jackson if he actually bothered to work out for the C's.
There was basically 0% chance Tatum was going 1 or 2. A few of us (myself included) wanted to trade down again for Isaac and another pick.
There was basically 0% chance Tatum was going 1 or 2. A few of us (myself included) wanted to trade down again for Isaac and another pick.
Hey, at the end of it all Ball's first non-rookie contract will probably end up as a max. So who can say he wasn't a great pick?!
I made the comparison to Bird as a scorer months ago. I think Tatum is an incredible scorer. I still say it is wash to Bird.
But these silly apples to oranges comparisons need to stop.
Bird wasn't in the NBA at Tatum's age because nobody other than Moses and Dawkins were in the NBA at that age. 50 point games are not as rare as they once were. It is easier to get 50 points it is easier to attain triple doubles, it is easier for the chosen player on team to amass defensive rebounds. In fact, from somebody around in the early 80s, scoring 50 was something Gervin, David Thompson, guys on bad teams did. Jordan was the first guy to lead the lead in scoring consistently and be leader of championship level team. Guys almost didn't want to post big numbers, they wanted to win. Jerry West had 5 50s in his life. Darwinzon Hernandez is striking out 13.5 batters per nine innings when Rich Gossage never had averaged 9, and Eck barely averaged 10 at his best. Strikeouts and 50 points games are easier to come by than before.
Does the fact Bird was shooting on his driveway at the same age Tatum was travelling the country on AAU teams with professional coaches at all mitigate the age comparisons? How about the fact that when Bird shot a fade from the mid post, or dribbled the ball up the floor as 6'9 forward he was derided by every coach, even Bobby Knight, until he carried Indiana Fucking State to the final game? That some of the shots Tatum relies on Bird kinda invented? Pump the brakes on stupid bird was a loser because it was the 70s, shit. Bird, with much less coaching and training help, and an era when the NBA was dominated by older players, not young players like today was a whole 1 smacking year older than Tatum when he turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team. So if Tatum is one of the best 2-3 guys in the league next year, then he can say he stacks up to Bird at Bird's age. There was serious, not unfounded discussions that 23 year old Larry Bird was a potential GOAT.
Also the age thing makes it sound like he is a once in generation prodigy when in fact the NBA has much younger players. Tatum isn't even the best guy his age (Luka). Trae Young, Zion, Shae GA are his age. Ja Morant and the better Ball brother are younger than Tatum.
That said my favourable comparisons to Bird the scorer are based on 1984-86, pre injury Bird. i think Tatum is that good, but these lazy meme like comparisons, are just not that valuable.
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Averaging 34.6/5.6/4.4 on a 60% TS in the 4 playoff games plus the play-in.
We’ve got a special one.
We’ve got a special one.
He looks to me like a player who is about to come back from a full, normal offseason and be an absolute monster.
Agreed 100%, I wouldn’t be shocked if he came in next year and averaged something like 28-29/7/5 on a 60% TS.
And more importantly, I expect the team to have a much better season.
It's not a total whiff, but they could have had Tatum. Ayton is a nice player too, but do you think that they might take Luka in a redraft?
Good interview with KD here, including a long conversation about Tatum.
View: https://twitter.com/boardroom/status/1400937775415894017
View: https://twitter.com/boardroom/status/1400937775415894017
Not sure about this. There were 143 triple-doubles this season. Westbrook, Lebron, Harden, Jokic, and Doncic alone have more triple doubles than there have been non-Wilt 50-point games in NBA history.