Team Leadership

[Cesar Crespo]

If this team does lack leadership, where does it come from for the 21/22 season? Will Tatum accept a new player who isn't as good as he is as the team leader?

Will it come internally? Jaylen Brown seems like a possible option. Same question above regarding Tatum.

If this is indeed an issue, it doesn't seem like an easy thing to fix without a lot of player movement.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Age and experience and a normal offseason will fix a lot of what is wrong with this team.

 

[Kliq]

I think that a key issue with the Celtics is that they don't have a lot of credible veterans on the roster, people who have been around the league for a long time. Kemba, TT and Smart are the ones who stand out. Kemba comes across to me as a real leader, he is very positive and energetic, even when he isn't playing. TT we have gotten mixed reviews on, but seems to be generally respected by his peers. Smart, I don't know. He plays hard and sacrifices his body, but he also gets thrown out of games, argues with teammates and coaches and takes a lot of selfish shots.

Outside of those guys you just have a lot of role players with minimal NBA experience. Tatum and Brown will ultimately set the tone for the team as the best players, but its hard for guys that young to grasp the concept of NBA leadership, in addition to the strides they have made as players. I think we need to be patient with them on that front, which can be frustrating because from a skill perspective they are ready now.

It also might be time to move on from Brad to shakeup the culture of the team. I still believe that Stevens is a very good coach who brings a lot of good things to the table, but at this point it might be more useful to bring in someone fresh who could get more out of this group of players. They might not be as good as Stevens when it comes to X's and O's, or developing young players, but the strengths they bring to the table might get more out of this Celtics team.

 

[bankshot1]

This pre-season I had posted that I hoped TT would be that veteran voice on-court and in the locker-room that would help guide a young team take the next step into maturity and the Finals. In some regards take on the role of "Average Al" who's contributions to the team in prior years was important. This team needed a dose of toughness and experience and I had hoped that TT would be that guy to help these guys deal with and overcome adversity. But I think circumstances far beyond his control killed my vision viewed through my emerald green glasses.

My sense is that while Tatum is the guy on the court, and is liable to go off for 40+ a night, he's not an alpha personality, or a dynamic leader, but Brown may be that combination of skills and personality, to lead with example and words and presence, to handle the role.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

The age/experience thing is starting to bother me a bit around here. These guys aren't rookies and they have a lot of NBA experience for guys their age.

Tatum is in his 4th year
Brown is in his 5th year
Smart is in his 7th year

Then we have Kemba and TT and Fournier who have plenty of experience (and maybe too much age in the case of Kemba and TT). Yeah, you've got rookies and young guys on the roster, but what teams don't? Overall, they are young (and their best players are definitely on the young side), but in years/games played, I'm losing the ability to give these guys a lot more time to find their footing. I'm chalking this year up as a lost cause, and hope they can rebound next year, but:

Those "young guys" have been to 3 of the last 4 ECF (as folks around here like to remind us all the time when it comes to Brad), but now folks want to excuse this shitshow of a season on age/inexperience?

Rudy Gobert is the same age as Marcus Smart. Donovan Mitchell is the same age as Tatum. Mike Conley is only a couple years older than Kemba.

Kobe was winning titles by his 4th year.

When Golden State won their first title, their starters ages were 22, 24, 24, 26 and 30. And Andrew Bogut was the 30 year old.

Giannis was league MVP at 25 and Finals MVP at 26.

When Durant went to the conference finals at age 22 with OKC, the other regular starters were 21, 22, 24, 26 and 27. In his age 23 season, with all of those guys one year older, they lost in the NBA finals. They had two guys on the entire roster that were over the age of 27 that saw regular minutes (Derek Fisher and Nick Collison).

I could go on and on like this, but these aren't rookies, or guys that are just finding their footing in the NBA. These are guys with a lot of NBA mileage on their tires already, and who already have a ton of big game experience. Jaylen and Jayson don't appear to be guys that are into social media or nightclubs and strippers (I could obviously be wrong), they seem very mature off the court and usually, on the court as well. They aren't early 20's NBA players who are out there sowing their oats (and we've seen plenty of those). Of course, there are other teams like the Mavericks championship team that was filled with vets, and other teams with veteran presences, but I'm having a hard time finding a ton of comps of young guys who went deep on playoff runs in multiple years early in their career, all of a sudden going in the other direction because they were still young (or too young all of a sudden) or apparently, became less experienced along the way.

 

[bankshot1]

I have an irrational love for the style of Marcus Smart, he's tenacious, and slightly out of control, and I've likened him several times to a free-safety in the NFL, more than willing to take and give hard hits. But I'm not sure he has the court skills for true leadership, particularly with guys like Tatum and Brown. Marcus sort of reminds me "Stephen the crazy Irishman" from Braveheart, that guy was great, a true Celtic. But we need William Wallace leading the charge, not a crazy Irishman.

For reference

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJCDhf5N7k

 

[lexrageorge]

I personally think that the ranked order of things a team needs to be successful in the NBA are

- Talent
- Roster balance (aka, cannot have five 6'0" PG's as your best players)
- Injury luck
<gap
- coaching
<bigly gap>
- locker room leadership

Sure, locker room leadership can help at the margins when all of the other boxes are checked. But leadership cannot overcome talent gaps or injuries or illnesses to star players at the wrong time.

This team has had issues in the first 3 areas all season. Address those gaps in the offseason, and the leadership question will get answered.

 

[Kliq]

The age/experience thing is starting to bother me a bit around here. These guys aren't rookies and they have a lot of NBA experience for guys their age.

Tatum is in his 4th year
Brown is in his 5th year
Smart is in his 7th year

Then we have Kemba and TT and Fournier who have plenty of experience (and maybe too much age in the case of Kemba and TT). Yeah, you've got rookies and young guys on the roster, but what teams don't? Overall, they are young (and their best players are definitely on the young side), but in years/games played, I'm losing the ability to give these guys a lot more time to find their footing. I'm chalking this year up as a lost cause, and hope they can rebound next year, but:

Those "young guys" have been to 3 of the last 4 ECF (as folks around here like to remind us all the time when it comes to Brad), but now folks want to excuse this shitshow of a season on age/inexperience?

Rudy Gobert is the same age as Marcus Smart. Donovan Mitchell is the same age as Tatum. Mike Conley is only a couple years older than Kemba.

Kobe was winning titles by his 4th year.

When Golden State won their first title, their starters ages were 22, 24, 24, 26 and 30. And Andrew Bogut was the 30 year old.

Giannis was league MVP at 25 and Finals MVP at 26.

When Durant went to the conference finals at age 22 with OKC, the other regular starters were 21, 22, 24, 26 and 27. In his age 23 season, with all of those guys one year older, they lost in the NBA finals. They had two guys on the entire roster that were over the age of 27 that saw regular minutes (Derek Fisher and Nick Collison).

I could go on and on like this, but these aren't rookies, or guys that are just finding their footing in the NBA. These are guys with a lot of NBA mileage on their tires already, and who already have a ton of big game experience. Jaylen and Jayson don't appear to be guys that are into social media or nightclubs and strippers (I could obviously be wrong), they seem very mature off the court and usually, on the court as well. They aren't early 20's NBA players who are out there sowing their oats (and we've seen plenty of those). Of course, there are other teams like the Mavericks championship team that was filled with vets, and other teams with veteran presences, but I'm having a hard time finding a ton of comps of young guys who went deep on playoff runs in multiple years early in their career, all of a sudden going in the other direction because they were still young (or too young all of a sudden) or apparently, became less experienced along the way.

I disagree with a lot of this.

Brown and Tatum are really young. They are 24 and 23 respectively; yes they have already had some years in the league and logged some playoff games, but they are still very young. I know it can be frustrating because from a skill perspective they are already All-NBA caliber players, but we have no idea what kind of leaders they are capable of being because they are still so young.

Part of the reason the Celtics went on some deep playoff runs were due to a very weak Eastern Conference and some favorable matchups. The East is much better this year and the result is that this Celtics team is having a harder time getting by.

The Jazz have not accomplished anything in the playoffs that this version of the Celtics hasn't, so they wouldn't be the model I'd be using. They also have a much more veteran filled team with a lot of savvy older guys like Joe Ingles, Derrick Favors, Bogdanovic, etc. playing significant supporting roles.

Kobe won a title in his fourth year...like okay. He was sharing the court with the most dominant player in the NBA (who also took quite a while to mentally be ready to win a title) as well as a gazillion veterans in AC Green, Ron Harper, John Salley, Glen Rice, Brian Shaw and Robert Horry. It wasn't like Kobe was captaining the ship.

Golden State was playing transformative basketball that stretched the boundaries of the game itself. This Celtics team is not doing that.

Milwaukee hasn't won anything and part of that has been Giannis' ability to not go up a level in the playoffs, and that is a team with again, more veteran role players than the Celtics. Milwaukee over the past few years has been similar to the Celtics in that Giannis' skill-wise is capable of winning a title, but mentally he hasn't been there yet.

The OKC team never made it back to the Finals and broke up. They again were a team talented enough to win a title but never did. Some of the key players went elsewhere and as older, more mature players, did win titles.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

The age/experience thing is starting to bother me a bit around here. These guys aren't rookies and they have a lot of NBA experience for guys their age.

Tatum is in his 4th year
Brown is in his 5th year
Smart is in his 7th year

The bench is incredibly young/inexperienced and most teams contending for a title have more of a veteran bench. TL is in year 3 but has also missed a ton of time so he could go into that pile too.

There are too many players to develop on a team with title hopes.

 

[Kliq]

The bench is incredibly young/inexperienced and most teams contending for a title have more of a veteran bench. TL is in year 3 but has also missed a ton of time so he could go into that pile too.

There are too many players to develop on a team with title hopes.

This is what I'm talking about. Hard to win competitive games when you have Pritchard/Nesmith/Romeo/Grant/TL/Semi all playing significant minutes, often at the same time. Those guys all deserve to play and have potential and have even performed well at times, but it's hard to be a really competitive team when you are incubating so many young players. Bringing in Fournier was the right idea, but unfortunately due to injuries/illness he hasn't gotten a chance to really impact the game a lot.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I disagree with a lot of this.

Brown and Tatum are really young. They are 24 and 23 respectively; yes they have already had some years in the league and logged some playoff games, but they are still very young. I know it can be frustrating because from a skill perspective they are already All-NBA caliber players, but we have no idea what kind of leaders they are capable of being because they are still so young.

Part of the reason the Celtics went on some deep playoff runs were due to a very weak Eastern Conference and some favorable matchups. The East is much better this year and the result is that this Celtics team is having a harder time getting by.

The Jazz have not accomplished anything in the playoffs that this version of the Celtics hasn't, so they wouldn't be the model I'd be using. They also have a much more veteran filled team with a lot of savvy older guys like Joe Ingles, Derrick Favors, Bogdanovic, etc. playing significant supporting roles.

Kobe won a title in his fourth year...like okay. He was sharing the court with the most dominant player in the NBA (who also took quite a while to mentally be ready to win a title) as well as a gazillion veterans in AC Green, Ron Harper, John Salley, Glen Rice, Brian Shaw and Robert Horry. It wasn't like Kobe was captaining the ship.

Golden State was playing transformative basketball that stretched the boundaries of the game itself. This Celtics team is not doing that.

Milwaukee hasn't won anything and part of that has been Giannis' ability to not go up a level in the playoffs, and that is a team with again, more veteran role players than the Celtics. Milwaukee over the past few years has been similar to the Celtics in that Giannis' skill-wise is capable of winning a title, but mentally he hasn't been there yet.

The OKC team never made it back to the Finals and broke up. They again were a team talented enough to win a title but never did. Some of the key players went elsewhere and as older, more mature players, did win titles.

You're focusing on something different than what I am here.

We aren't talking about a title contender with the Celtics in 2020-2021. The Celtics aren't having trouble "getting by" the top teams in the East. They aren't even playing the same sport as those teams. They are having trouble beating the Detroit Pistons and the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Thunder, and this isn't a new development, they've been having those problems since literally the Sunday, January 17th game that they lost by 30 to the Knicks. Going into that game, the Knicks were 5-8 and on a 5 game losing streak. Since that time, they are 33-23. Going into that game, the C's were on a 5 game winning streak, and sitting at 8-3. The C's are 27-32 since that game.

We're talking about a team that is barely a playoff contender right now. My point isn't that Giannis won a league MVP when he was young, or that Curry and the Warriors were winning Championships. My point is you're either getting better or you're not. This "team" that we root for, is literally getting worse before our eyes, night in and night out. I say team, because obviously Tatum has done some things better offensively this year, so has Brown, and TL is a stud when he's healthy, but as a team, they are way, way worse than they have been the previous 4-5 years.

The point isn't that the C's should be where the Warriors are, or that Giannis won an MVP and a finals MVP at a young age, the point is we're excusing the performance this year because of age/inexperience, but then in the same breath talking about how much they've accomplished as young players. Those teams, and many others like them, didn't win immediately either (and some like OKC never won it all), but there are almost zero teams that actually played as well as the C's did in prior years, then turned into a steaming hot pile of shit that is regularly losing to teams that haven't won in a month, subsequently turning it around the following year and getting back to where they were.

We're literally blaming age and inexperience for this season, while pining for the days where our stars were even younger and less experienced. It's a bit counter-intuitive, no? If this team was the 4 seed right now, nobody, including myself would be shitting on them as underachieving. Or even the 5 seed. But I fully expected this team, even with injuries or COVID or whatever, to be able to beat the Cleveland Fucking Cavaliers and the Thunder, or the Pistons, some of whom were literally trying to lose those games. I don't think I'm being overly critical expecting that much? And if we had just beaten those dregs throughout the season, we wouldn't be talking about whether or not we'll get the 7 or 8 seed.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

The bench is incredibly young/inexperienced and most teams contending for a title have more of a veteran bench. TL is in year 3 but has also missed a ton of time so he could go into that pile too.

There are too many players to develop on a team with title hopes.

What does the bench have to do with Tatum and Brown and Smart being unable to cover anyone this season? Or not spend half their time on the court standing around doing nothing? Kevin Love went for 30 and 14 against us last night. Kevin fucking love, and the bench is the problem? The young guys are the problem? Payton Pritchard had the game of his life with 28 points on 9/16 shooting, Jaylen had 39, 11 boards, 3 assists and 4 steals in the same game, and we still lost to a team that had previously lost 14 in a row (and 8 more in a row since then) that started Theo Maladon, Moses Brown, Darius Baizley, Aleksej Pokusevski and Luguentz Dort. We also couldn't handle their incredible bench of Isiah Thomas (oops, I meant Isiah Roby) and Ty Jerome.

Guys, come on. I'm not talking about us beating the Nets or Philly or Milwaukee. I'm talking about us being unable to beat ANYONE. And even when we do win a game, it's usually a dog fight of some kind. If our roster is so bad, and our injuries are so bad, then the C's should have fucking known it and tried tanking about 2 months ago. Or maybe they did, and fucked that up too.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

What does the bench have to do with Tatum and Brown and Smart being unable to cover anyone this season? Or not spend half their time on the court standing around doing nothing? Kevin Love went for 30 and 14 against us last night. Kevin fucking love, and the bench is the problem? The young guys are the problem? Payton Pritchard had the game of his life with 28 points on 9/16 shooting, Jaylen had 39, 11 boards, 3 assists and 4 steals in the same game, and we still lost to a team that had previously lost 14 in a row (and 8 more in a row since then) that started Theo Maladon, Moses Brown, Darius Baizley, Aleksej Pokusevski and Luguentz Dort. We also couldn't handle their incredible bench of Isiah Thomas (oops, I meant Isiah Roby) and Ty Jerome.

Guys, come on. I'm not talking about us beating the Nets or Philly or Milwaukee. I'm talking about us being unable to beat ANYONE. And even when we do win a game, it's usually a dog fight of some kind. If our roster is so bad, and our injuries are so bad, then the C's should have fucking known it and tried tanking about 2 months ago. Or maybe they did, and fucked that up too.

A team unable to beat anyone isn't 35-35 and on its way to the playoffs. You are being hyperbolic in the other direction. Guy, come on.

A shitty bench means the starters have to play harder and longer. Maybe they are tired. They are playing more minutes than ever before.

Tatum and Brown also aren't the young guys. The young guys are AN, RL, GW, PP, TL, CE etc.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

A team unable to beat anyone isn't 35-35 and on its way to the playoffs. You are being hyperbolic in the other direction. Guy, come on.

A shitty bench means the starters have to play harder and longer. Maybe they are tired. They are playing more minutes than ever before.

Yes, I'm sure that extra 36 seconds per game that Jaylen is playing over last year is the difference, or the extra 90 seconds that Tatum is playing is the reason. They must be exhausted. Do guys generally get stronger and have more energy as they get older?

You're correct. I was wrong. They could probably beat the Houston Rockets. But they definitely can't beat the Chicago Bulls or the Miami Heat, or the Cavs.

I talked about the Clippers yesterday and people hated that, but let me repeat:

Tatum and Brown have missed a combined 19 games this year

George and Leonard have missed a combined 34 games this year.

The C's are 35-35
The Clippers are 46-23.

It must be the rest of the roster or the bench? Nope.

The Celtic are 2-0 versus the Clippers this year. In the first game, Paul George didn't play, but neither did Marcus Smart or Jaylen Brown, and that game was in LA.

In the 2nd game, they were missing Kawhi, and we were only missing Smart.

My point is that the Celtics roster has talent, a lot of it, and they can play with the big dogs when they want to. The problem is they haven't wanted it enough for most of this season, and certainly for long stretches each night. That's what is so fucking infuriating about all of these excuses. Night after night, we see this team fall behind by big numbers, and then make big runs when they decide to wake up. We've seen them play great basketball against very, very good teams. On January 30th, they lost be 1 point to a healthy Lakers team, and 2 games later, they are losing to the Sacramento Kings.

I don't know if it's a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a locker room issue, or what, but every time I see an excuse about age or injuries or COVID or inexperience, I want to bash my head against the wall. The team just is not playing to their potential and lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to do so.

 

[Kliq]

You're focusing on something different than what I am here.

We aren't talking about a title contender with the Celtics in 2020-2021. The Celtics aren't having trouble "getting by" the top teams in the East. They aren't even playing the same sport as those teams. They are having trouble beating the Detroit Pistons and the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Thunder, and this isn't a new development, they've been having those problems since literally the Sunday, January 17th game that they lost by 30 to the Knicks. Going into that game, the Knicks were 5-8 and on a 5 game losing streak. Since that time, they are 33-23. Going into that game, the C's were on a 5 game winning streak, and sitting at 8-3. The C's are 27-32 since that game.

We're talking about a team that is barely a playoff contender right now. My point isn't that Giannis won a league MVP when he was young, or that Curry and the Warriors were winning Championships. My point is you're either getting better or you're not. This "team" that we root for, is literally getting worse before our eyes, night in and night out. I say team, because obviously Tatum has done some things better offensively this year, so has Brown, and TL is a stud when he's healthy, but as a team, they are way, way worse than they have been the previous 4-5 years.

The point isn't that the C's should be where the Warriors are, or that Giannis won an MVP and a finals MVP at a young age, the point is we're excusing the performance this year because of age/inexperience, but then in the same breath talking about how much they've accomplished as young players. Those teams, and many others like them, didn't win immediately either (and some like OKC never won it all), but there are almost zero teams that actually played as well as the C's did in prior years, then turned into a steaming hot pile of shit that is regularly losing to teams that haven't won in a month, subsequently turning it around the following year and getting back to where they were.

We're literally blaming age and inexperience for this season, while pining for the days where our stars were even younger and less experienced. It's a bit counter-intuitive, no? If this team was the 4 seed right now, nobody, including myself would be shitting on them as underachieving. Or even the 5 seed. But I fully expected this team, even with injuries or COVID or whatever, to be able to beat the Cleveland Fucking Cavaliers and the Thunder, or the Pistons, some of whom were literally trying to lose those games. I don't think I'm being overly critical expecting that much? And if we had just beaten those dregs throughout the season, we wouldn't be talking about whether or not we'll get the 7 or 8 seed.

Nobody is excusing the team for being bad. But when talking specifically about leadership, the age and experience of our two clear best players does matter. They are young guys and haven't mastered the best way to control the team, and I think it is reasonable to expect when they are old enough to rent a car, they will probably be better at that.

The reason this Celtics team is worse than in previous season is fairly obvious. For starters, the team is worse than in previous years, despite improvements from Brown and Tatum. Losing Hayward and replacing his minutes with some combo of Semi/PP/Grant was not a good thing for this team. Walker has been less durable and less consistent than he was last year. Kanter was inconsistent but also a veteran that played really hard and set a good example. Tatum and Brown themselves have missed more time this year, plus the more condensed schedule, coupled with a heftier scoring burden, has hurt their consistency on defense. The East is also a lot better than they were last year, with doormats like the Knicks, Hawks and Wizards turning into respectable outfits.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Also worth noting... the games this year are a lot closer together, the load of the same minutes is heavier even before you factor in things like extra load from losing one of the 3 best players on the team, having players injured or recovering from COVID, etc. It isn't a coincidence that 3 of the 4 conference finalists are having terrible years, or that 6 of 7 semifinalists (we don't count the Rockets who blew it up) are seeing a real decline this year.
There are many issues with plenty of blame to go around, but guys just being tired and less than 100% is part of it.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Yes, I'm sure that extra 36 seconds per game that Jaylen is playing over last year is the difference, or the extra 90 seconds that Tatum is playing is the reason. They must be exhausted. Do guys generally get stronger and have more energy as they get older?

You're correct. I was wrong. They could probably beat the Houston Rockets. But they definitely can't beat the Chicago Bulls or the Miami Heat, or the Cavs.

I talked about the Clippers yesterday and people hated that, but let me repeat:

Tatum and Brown have missed a combined 19 games this year

George and Leonard have missed a combined 34 games this year.

The C's are 35-35
The Clippers are 46-23.

It must be the rest of the roster or the bench? Nope.

The Celtic are 2-0 versus the Clippers this year. In the first game, Paul George didn't play, but neither did Marcus Smart or Jaylen Brown, and that game was in LA.

In the 2nd game, they were missing Kawhi, and we were only missing Smart.

My point is that the Celtics roster has talent, a lot of it, and they can play with the big dogs when they want to. The problem is they haven't wanted it enough for most of this season, and certainly for long stretches each night. That's what is so fucking infuriating about all of these excuses. Night after night, we see this team fall behind by big numbers, and then make big runs when they decide to wake up. We've seen them play great basketball against very, very good teams. On January 30th, they lost be 1 point to a healthy Lakers team, and 2 games later, they are losing to the Sacramento Kings.

I don't know if it's a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a locker room issue, or what, but every time I see an excuse about age or injuries or COVID or inexperience, I want to bash my head against the wall. The team just is not playing to their potential and lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to do so.

To me, saying the bench is young and inexperienced is the same way of saying the bench sucks. I don't think Tatum or Brown are part of the problem.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Those "young guys" have been to 3 of the last 4 ECF (as folks around here like to remind us all the time when it comes to Brad), but now folks want to excuse this shitshow of a season on age/inexperience?

That is hyperbolic and wrong.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Why are injuries and games missed to COVID/protocols an excuse while "leadership" is not? The former can be measured and the results correlate pretty well to records this season (e.g. Utah doing well because they have had low line up turnover). Meanwhile, before we even get into what the Celtics leadership deficiencies are, we have to define what it is and how it impacts winning.

I think we can all agree that there have been questions about Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant and even James Harden's leadership qualities. Yet it doesn't seem to be a factor to date with the Nets. Talent and its availability to your team appear to have a far greater impact on winning than intangibles imo. It would be ideal if the next Celtics championship club has a clear leader and a harmonious locker room. However absence of those factors doesn't preclude them from hanging another banner.

 

[bankshot1]

I think there are so many variables to examine (areas, both hoop specific and not, and individuals GM-coach-players, to dump some blame on) as to make the blame game irrelevant.

Example: I was a Theis fan, but knew his s&w and limitation, but I liked him and thought he played hard and smart, and generally busted his ass on defense. But I understood the trade to get TL more time and get him ready for important minutes. And then TL stopped ticking, leaving a team already small and vulnerable even more so.

Shitshow may be a lazy descriptor but that's what this year has been.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

To me, saying the bench is young and inexperienced is the same way of saying the bench sucks. I don't think Tatum or Brown are part of the problem.

Tatum and Brown have definitely been part of the problem on the defensive side of the ball. And Tatum's slow starts have contributed to a lot of double digit deficits early in games, but yeah, on the scale of issues with this team, they aren't anywhere near the top, IMO.

 

[chilidawg]

My point is that the Celtics roster has talent, a lot of it, and they can play with the big dogs when they want to. The problem is they haven't wanted it enough for most of this season, and certainly for long stretches each night. That's what is so fucking infuriating about all of these excuses. Night after night, we see this team fall behind by big numbers, and then make big runs when they decide to wake up. We've seen them play great basketball against very, very good teams. On January 30th, they lost be 1 point to a healthy Lakers team, and 2 games later, they are losing to the Sacramento Kings.

I don't know if it's a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a locker room issue, or what, but every time I see an excuse about age or injuries or COVID or inexperience, I want to bash my head against the wall. The team just is not playing to their potential and lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to do so.

This is where I'm at as well.

 

[Five Cent Head]

I don't know if it's a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a locker room issue, or what, but every time I see an excuse about age or injuries or COVID or inexperience, I want to bash my head against the wall. The team just is not playing to their potential and lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to do so.

The pandemic affects people in lots of different ways. It's quite plausible to me that it could lead to being able to put in a great effort one night and not another, being able to focus some days and not others. By now, I would expect added stress (which can manifest itself in all sorts of ways) because I'm sure the players know that they are not playing up to their potential, and they don't know how to fix it. Maybe I'm agreeing that it's a leadership issue or a coaching issue or a locker room issue, but I think it's one without a clear solution, one that might improve on its own next season (or might not), and also one that might improve with a change of leadership, coaching, or personnel (or might not).

Yes, I'm playing armchair psychologist, but so is everyone else in the thread....

(And yes, I used an ellipsis. So there.)

 

[Cesar Crespo]

The pandemic affects people in lots of different ways. It's quite plausible to me that it could lead to being able to put in a great effort one night and not another, being able to focus some days and not others. By now, I would expect added stress (which can manifest itself in all sorts of ways) because I'm sure the players know that they are not playing up to their potential, and they don't know how to fix it. Maybe I'm agreeing that it's a leadership issue or a coaching issue or a locker room issue, but I think it's one without a clear solution, one that might improve on its own next season (or might not), and also one that might improve with a change of leadership, coaching, or personnel (or might not).

Yes, I'm playing armchair psychologist, but so is everyone else in the thread....

(And yes, I used an ellipsis. So there.)

Except you didn't. An ellipsis is 3 dots.

 

[Five Cent Head]

Except you didn't. An ellipsis is 3 dots.

It's a period to end the sentence, then an ellipsis afterwards.

 

[Auger34]

This is where I'm at as well.

What’s funny is the players themselves are saying versions of this yet a decent amount of posters here refuse to believe it and act like any poster who alludes to it is grandstanding.
Here’s a quote from Evan Fournier after the Heat game 5 days ago where he effectively called the team soft.

View: https://twitter.com/Murf56/status/1391806965953843200?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1391806965953843200%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-18549776023692812313.ampproject.net%2F2104302228000%2Fframe.html

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Giannis was league MVP at 25 and Finals MVP at 26

Hell of an accomplishment for someone who’s never played in the finals.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Hell of an accomplishment for someone who’s never played in the finals.

Yep, I messed up. I was responding to a lot of posts in a short period of time and messed up. Meant to write he won his league MVP at 24 and his 2nd league MVP at age 25. He could still win the Finals MVP at age 26, which is this year. Obviously he hasn't won one yet and and has never been, but that will probably change soon (unfortunately, I hate the way he and Harden are officiated).

 

[BaseballJones]

The age/experience thing is starting to bother me a bit around here. These guys aren't rookies and they have a lot of NBA experience for guys their age.

Tatum is in his 4th year
Brown is in his 5th year
Smart is in his 7th year

Then we have Kemba and TT and Fournier who have plenty of experience (and maybe too much age in the case of Kemba and TT). Yeah, you've got rookies and young guys on the roster, but what teams don't? Overall, they are young (and their best players are definitely on the young side), but in years/games played, I'm losing the ability to give these guys a lot more time to find their footing. I'm chalking this year up as a lost cause, and hope they can rebound next year, but:

Those "young guys" have been to 3 of the last 4 ECF (as folks around here like to remind us all the time when it comes to Brad), but now folks want to excuse this shitshow of a season on age/inexperience?

Rudy Gobert is the same age as Marcus Smart. Donovan Mitchell is the same age as Tatum. Mike Conley is only a couple years older than Kemba.

Kobe was winning titles by his 4th year.

When Golden State won their first title, their starters ages were 22, 24, 24, 26 and 30. And Andrew Bogut was the 30 year old.

Giannis was league MVP at 25 and Finals MVP at 26.

When Durant went to the conference finals at age 22 with OKC, the other regular starters were 21, 22, 24, 26 and 27. In his age 23 season, with all of those guys one year older, they lost in the NBA finals. They had two guys on the entire roster that were over the age of 27 that saw regular minutes (Derek Fisher and Nick Collison).

I could go on and on like this, but these aren't rookies, or guys that are just finding their footing in the NBA. These are guys with a lot of NBA mileage on their tires already, and who already have a ton of big game experience. Jaylen and Jayson don't appear to be guys that are into social media or nightclubs and strippers (I could obviously be wrong), they seem very mature off the court and usually, on the court as well. They aren't early 20's NBA players who are out there sowing their oats (and we've seen plenty of those). Of course, there are other teams like the Mavericks championship team that was filled with vets, and other teams with veteran presences, but I'm having a hard time finding a ton of comps of young guys who went deep on playoff runs in multiple years early in their career, all of a sudden going in the other direction because they were still young (or too young all of a sudden) or apparently, became less experienced along the way.

1. What has Giannis or Gobert ever won? Giannis was never the Finals MVP - heck, he's never even been to an NBA Finals. He's only been to the ECF one time in his career.

2. The Warriors won their first title when Curry was 26. And that team had a *minimum* of two Hall-of-Famers (Curry/Klay), and two other possible HOFers (Draymond/Iguodala). And Curry is one of the handful of the greatest players ever to play the sport. Tatum.....isn't close to that.

3. Kobe won his first title at age 21, but they had Shaq at the absolute peak of his powers, and Shaq is an inner-circle elite HOFer and one of the most dominant players ever to play. They also had a bunch of other veterans with championship experience and a HOF coach.

As you said, I could go on and on like this.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

The pandemic affects people in lots of different ways. It's quite plausible to me that it could lead to being able to put in a great effort one night and not another, being able to focus some days and not others. By now, I would expect added stress (which can manifest itself in all sorts of ways) because I'm sure the players know that they are not playing up to their potential, and they don't know how to fix it. Maybe I'm agreeing that it's a leadership issue or a coaching issue or a locker room issue, but I think it's one without a clear solution, one that might improve on its own next season (or might not), and also one that might improve with a change of leadership, coaching, or personnel (or might not).

Yes, I'm playing armchair psychologist, but so is everyone else in the thread....

(And yes, I used an ellipsis. So there.)

Yeah, it's funny how teams have great leadership when they win and terrible leadership when they lose . . . .

It's a period to end the sentence, then an ellipsis afterwards.

I always thought it was an ellipsis first and then a period. I'll have to talk to leadership about that.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Yeah, it's funny how teams have great leadership when they win and terrible leadership when they lose . . . .

I always thought it was an ellipsis first and then a period. I'll have to talk to leadership about that.

Technically it's . . . anyway, not ...

As I'm sure you are aware of because you actually used . . .

The ellipsis battle is a lost cause.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

What’s funny is the players themselves are saying versions of this yet a decent amount of posters here refuse to believe it and act like any poster who alludes to it is grandstanding.
Here’s a quote from Evan Fournier after the Heat game 5 days ago where he effectively called the team soft.

View: https://twitter.com/Murf56/status/1391806965953843200?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1391806965953843200%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-18549776023692812313.ampproject.net%2F2104302228000%2Fframe.html

Guy has been here a month and he knows they're a soft team. He seems to be a great fit, so I hope he isn't totally turned off by what he has seen.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Technically it's . . . anyway, not ...

As I'm sure you are aware of because you actually used . . .

The ellipsis battle is a lost cause.

I had no idea; I just put spaces between them because it's easier to see.

But you piqued my interest and apparently Chicago Style manual agrees with you but AP style manual says no spaces. https://apvschicago.com/2011/05/em-dashes-and-ellipses-closed-or-spaced.html

Surely, there's a committee somewhere deciding the answer. I wonder who is leading it?

 

[Five Cent Head]

Surely, there's a committee somewhere deciding the answer. I wonder who is leading it?

Spoiler

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Guy has been here a month and he knows they're a soft team. He seems to be a great fit, so I hope he isn't totally turned off by what he has seen.

Here he goes again with his mouth about to rub people the wrong way just as it did in Orlando. He speaks the truth though which is refreshing to us......but maybe not so much for his co-workers.

The only thing that Fournier’s agent will be turned on by this summer is the contract offer. He also spoken frankly about the business side of the game. In other words, he isn’t taking no discount for the right to be here.

 

[Auger34]

Here he goes again with his mouth about to rub people the wrong way just as it did in Orlando. He speaks the truth though which is refreshing to us......but maybe not so much for his co-workers.

The only thing that Fournier’s agent will be turned on by this summer is the contract offer. He also spoken frankly about the business side of the game. In other words, he isn’t taking no discount for the right to be here.

I’m pretty sure he’s not rubbing his teammates the wrong way. Almost every player available to the media has said a different variation of what he said over the last month

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I’m pretty sure he’s not rubbing his teammates the wrong way. Almost every player available to the media has said a different variation of what he said over the last month

He’s been here a month, defenses are scoring at will when he’s on the floor yet he just called his teammates soft. There probably isn’t a softer player on our roster. I don’t know how they feel about this but I’d imagine they can’t like it. In Orlando he had issues due to freezing out everyone except Vucevic while dividing the team and tweeted out criticism of players sitting out the bubble without knowing anything about their personal story.

Like I said, I love the candidness and he may not be wrong but his rep isn’t that of a good teammate.

 

[benhogan]

Nice interview with JB, figured it should go in this thread.

https://theundefeated.com/features/jaylen-brown-on-why-its-important-for-celtics-and-nba-to-hire-african-american-head-coaches/

COVID season: We started back so quickly [last season]. I didn’t really have an [offseason]. I was dreading coming into training camp, like, ‘Oh, man.’ I was already hurting. I had a good season, but my body barely kept up. So, this year I think I’ll be a lot better in that category.


What have you done to improve your game this summer? Or what have you worked on mostly?
Mostly just trying to heal, and playmaking is one thing. I’ll definitely be more of a playmaker this season, for sure. Just making the right plays and empowering my teammates. I just want to win games, man. So, every year I just approach the season as just trying to get better. My body feels a lot better. I’m more athletic than I was last season. I had knee problems last year that were lingering and I hope that I won’t have this season. Somebody told me I had 12, probably like, 15 dunks in 58 games, or something like that. I’m like, ‘That’s not me.’

So, getting back to being athletic, running, just going having fun, being a playmaker, and having more responsibility. Different coach, so I’m looking forward to that journey and that process as well.

 

[chilidawg]

Yep, I messed up. I was responding to a lot of posts in a short period of time and messed up. Meant to write he won his league MVP at 24 and his 2nd league MVP at age 25. He could still win the Finals MVP at age 26, which is this year. Obviously he hasn't won one yet and and has never been, but that will probably change soon (unfortunately, I hate the way he and Harden are officiated).

Pretty good post in hindsight.

 

[TripleOT]

Nice interview with JB, figured it should go in this thread.

https://theundefeated.com/features/jaylen-brown-on-why-its-important-for-celtics-and-nba-to-hire-african-american-head-coaches/

COVID season: We started back so quickly [last season]. I didn’t really have an [offseason]. I was dreading coming into training camp, like, ‘Oh, man.’ I was already hurting. I had a good season, but my body barely kept up. So, this year I think I’ll be a lot better in that category.


What have you done to improve your game this summer? Or what have you worked on mostly?
Mostly just trying to heal, and playmaking is one thing. I’ll definitely be more of a playmaker this season, for sure. Just making the right plays and empowering my teammates. I just want to win games, man. So, every year I just approach the season as just trying to get better. My body feels a lot better. I’m more athletic than I was last season. I had knee problems last year that were lingering and I hope that I won’t have this season. Somebody told me I had 12, probably like, 15 dunks in 58 games, or something like that. I’m like, ‘That’s not me.’

So, getting back to being athletic, running, just going having fun, being a playmaker, and having more responsibility. Different coach, so I’m looking forward to that journey and that process as well.

I didn’t think I could be any more impressed by Jaylen Brown, but after reading about his efforts in the community in Boston to create amazing educational opportunities in coordination with MIT, I am.

Hopefully JB can have an injury free season, where he can show his full package of skills. He hasn’t been asked to facilitate much in his career so far, but I always felt he could. He mentioned in this piece with Spears that he will focus on being a better passer, which is really going to help this club.

The Undefeated has a lot of great content

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Nice interview with JB, figured it should go in this thread.

https://theundefeated.com/features/jaylen-brown-on-why-its-important-for-celtics-and-nba-to-hire-african-american-head-coaches/

Thanks for posting. I wish I could buy stock in JB. I'm glad he's on the Cs.

But getting back to basketball, this part of the interview is at least mildly concerning about a week from training camp and I wonder if Spears followed it up at all off the record (since I'm sure JB isn't giving out any medical information for public consumption):

Yeah, that’s the goal. My wrist has been healing. Some days it’s better than others. I got to continue to push and work, but I’m excited to be there for camp. And I’m excited to be there with my teammates, and start to build, and start this journey, man. I missed a lot of time, so I’m looking at the season like I’m ready. I want to play. I’m ready. ​

 

[lexrageorge]

Thanks for posting. I wish I could buy stock in JB. I'm glad he's on the Cs.

But getting back to basketball, this part of the interview is at least mildly concerning about a week from training camp and I wonder if Spears followed it up at all off the record (since I'm sure JB isn't giving out any medical information for public consumption):

Yeah, that’s the goal. My wrist has been healing. Some days it’s better than others. I got to continue to push and work, but I’m excited to be there for camp. And I’m excited to be there with my teammates, and start to build, and start this journey, man. I missed a lot of time, so I’m looking at the season like I’m ready. I want to play. I’m ready. ​

Brown had the same injury and surgery as Langford did the prior season. The start of training camp was at the earliest estimated timeline for a recovery from this injury, and that may be optimistic. So his comment is not surprising in that context. For whatever reason, Langford's recovery time was on the long end of the typical timeline, if not a bit longer.

It's better news that Brown said nothing about his knee.

 

[benhogan]

Brown had the same injury and surgery as Langford did the prior season. The start of training camp was at the earliest estimated timeline for a recovery from this injury, and that may be optimistic. So his comment is not surprising in that context. For whatever reason, Langford's recovery time was on the long end of the typical timeline, if not a bit longer.

It's better news that Brown said nothing about his knee.

I believe Romeo dealt with COVID issues when he was ready to return last season which extended his absence BUT I'm not 100% sure

 

[Cellar-Door]

I believe Romeo dealt with COVID issues when he was ready to return last season which extended his absence BUT I'm not 100% sure

yep, he did

 

[benhogan]

Ime naming 1 or 2 captains.

Smart & Horford are my odds on favorites.

Even though Jaylen is an obvious one, I'd rather have our two-stars focus on being that. And wouldn't want any jealousy if JB was named and not Tatum

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-boston-celtics-two-team-captains/

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Ime naming 1 or 2 captains.

Smart & Horford are my odds on favorites.

Even though Jaylen is an obvious one, I'd rather have our two-stars focus on being that. And wouldn't want any jealousy if JB was named and not Tatum

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-boston-celtics-two-team-captains/

Horford's the obvious one. Smart, too, I guess, but that seems like it might carry some risk. I think I agree that neither of the Jays should be chosen. I don't think there's anyone else on the team who would even be in the coversation.

 

[snowmanny]

Isn't your best player always the obvious choice?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Isn't your best player always the obvious choice?

Not really, a lot of NBA teams don't have captains, but in many sports the captain is a veteran who has a strong lockerroom presence rather than the best player. (see Varitek, Jeter in baseball, in Soccer the captain is rarely the best player, etc.)

 

[cardiacs]

Two of Smart, Jaylen, and/or Al. No other person makes sense.

 

[bankshot1]

I think Al is a leader in the clubhouse and that voice of maturity and reason, but as a returning vet, doesn't have the team service time to get the "C now. Smart does and its an inexpensive way to recognize his value and do so publicly which I think he would value. And it might tone him down a bit. Jaylen appears to be a respected voice in that room so he may be recognized as a co-C.

But part of me wonders if the taciturn Tatum as a co-C might make him a more vocal leader and buying into and invested in a new regime.