Thank you Brock Holt (signs with Brewers)

Mugsy's Jock

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Brock Holt may be my favorite good-not-great Red Sox player ever, both because of his versatility, personality, and very real contributions to championship teams. And the wide acceptance of the BROCKHOLT moniker always made me smile in game threads.
 

mwonow

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Brock Holt may be my favorite good-not-great Red Sox player ever, both because of his versatility, personality, and very real contributions to championship teams. And the wide acceptance of the BROCKHOLT moniker always made me smile in game threads.
I'm trying to think of comps from other sports. ML Carr, maybe?
 

Merkle's Boner

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So who replaces Brock as the face of the Jimmy Fund? I hope they don’t give the responsibility yet to Chavis. That would be too reminiscent of Middlebrooks, who seemed to take a huge step up in charitable responsibilities his second year and I think it hurt his development.
My guess would be Jackie or Xander.
 

YTF

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So who replaces Brock as the face of the Jimmy Fund? I hope they don’t give the responsibility yet to Chavis. That would be too reminiscent of Middlebrooks, who seemed to take a huge step up in charitable responsibilities his second year and I think it hurt his development.
My guess would be Jackie or Xander.
Is that "responsibility" something that's given or does someone just assume that mantle naturally?
 

InsideTheParker

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Is that "responsibility" something that's given or does someone just assume that mantle naturally?
I think it's the latter. That takes a very special type of person. From things he said, BROCKHOLT felt a special type of gratitude for his son's health, and that was a factor in his work.
 

Merkle's Boner

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I think it's the latter. That takes a very special type of person. From things he said, BROCKHOLT felt a special type of gratitude for his son's health, and that was a factor in his work.
No doubt. But it seems someone always steps up. It was Wake for a long time, Big Papi, Middlebrooks as I said. I’m just curious who is the guy on this team who can make that kind of commitment, because I do believe it is I’m-rant to the team to have someone visible in that role.
 

DeadlySplitter

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All I've seen on Brock is it's a 1 year deal with a club option for 2021, still no money details out yet. and he's now #32.
 
Oct 17, 2018
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When my younger brother developed a neurodegenerative condition around 10 years ago, one of his and my mom's favorite activities was to go to 5-10 PawSox games every summer. My mom developed a great relationship with Mike Tamburro and the PawSox PR team, and through that had the opportunity to meet a few PawSox players over the years. Brock was one of the players who took the time to meet them, and he couldn't have been nicer. Just an awesome guy who I am very sorry to see leave the organization.

 
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Ale Xander

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They did but Verdugo gave it back in favor of a tribute, in reverse, to Manny, and taking 99.
 

kelpapa

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When my younger brother developed a neurodegenerative condition around 10 years ago, one of his and my mom's favorite activities was to go to 5-10 PawSox games every summer. My mom developed a great relationship with Mike Tamburro and the PawSox PR team, and through that had the opportunity to meet a few PawSox players over the years. Brock was one of the players who took the time to meet them, and he couldn't have been nicer. Just an awesome guy who I am very sorry to see leave the organization.

That's fantastic
 

IpswichSox

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There was some speculation earlier in the off season that Brock might have been in line for a multiyear deal, but that obviously didn't happen. I know the lineup is a little left-handed, but we weren't interested at $3.75 million for one year? With the buyout guaranteed, it would have been $4 million against the tax. Wasn't that doable? Peraza is younger and bats righty, but he's getting $3 million. Seems like with this off season and with what Brock means to the fan base and the community, he probably would have stayed here for less than $4 million and that point the value exceeds the few hundred thousand you would be paying above what Peraza is getting, at least I think.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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There was some speculation earlier in the off season that Brock might have been in line for a multiyear deal, but that obviously didn't happen. I know the lineup is a little left-handed, but we weren't interested at $3.75 million for one year? With the buyout guaranteed, it would have been $4 million against the tax. Wasn't that doable? Peraza is younger and bats righty, but he's getting $3 million. Seems like with this off season and with what Brock means to the fan base and the community, he probably would have stayed here for less than $4 million and that point the value exceeds the few hundred thousand you would be paying above what Peraza is getting, at least I think.
I think if Holt were available for $3.75M + an option in December when they signed Peraza, they probably would have held on to him. My assumption is that that salary, which is a drop from his 2019 pay, would not have gotten a deal done back then. There's a reason that the speculation was that Holt was expected to get multiple years...I'm sure that's what his agents were asking. But when it gets to be mid-February and camps are opening, players are going to be more willing to come down off those loftier asks and settle for good enough. I'm not sure the Red Sox were interested in waiting out Holt, not when a comparable, younger replacement was available.

It's arguable that the extra roster spot being added this year led to devaluation of versatile utility guys like Holt. And Holt and/or his agent misread the market as a result.
 

jon abbey

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I think if Holt were available for $3.75M + an option in December when they signed Peraza, they probably would have held on to him. My assumption is that that salary, which is a drop from his 2019 pay, would not have gotten a deal done back then. There's a reason that the speculation was that Holt was expected to get multiple years...I'm sure that's what his agents were asking. But when it gets to be mid-February and camps are opening, players are going to be more willing to come down off those loftier asks and settle for good enough. I'm not sure the Red Sox were interested in waiting out Holt, not when a comparable, younger replacement was available.

It's arguable that the extra roster spot being added this year led to devaluation of versatile utility guys like Holt. And Holt and/or his agent misread the market as a result.
I agree with all of this, and also Bloom is trying to put longer-term pieces in place and Peraza is six years younger than Holt and is cost-controlled, if he turns out to be worth cost-controlling. Bloom's top goal is not putting together the best team for 2020, which should be obvious by now but is worth repeating.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Holt is also very injury-prone. Some chronic concussion issues.

I understand completely why they moved on with Bloom in... although the intangibles with his off-field contributions seemed to not be valued.
 

Ale Xander

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I think if Holt were available for $3.75M + an option in December when they signed Peraza, they probably would have held on to him. My assumption is that that salary, which is a drop from his 2019 pay, would not have gotten a deal done back then. There's a reason that the speculation was that Holt was expected to get multiple years...I'm sure that's what his agents were asking. But when it gets to be mid-February and camps are opening, players are going to be more willing to come down off those loftier asks and settle for good enough. I'm not sure the Red Sox were interested in waiting out Holt, not when a comparable, younger replacement was available.

It's arguable that the extra roster spot being added this year led to devaluation of versatile utility guys like Holt. And Holt and/or his agent misread the market as a result.
Hernandez and Lin were available for a lot less than Peraza, no?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Holt is also very injury-prone. Some chronic concussion issues.

I understand completely why they moved on with Bloom in... although the intangibles with his off-field contributions seemed to not be valued.
I say this as someone who was banging the "make Holt a lifelong Sox" drum last year specifically because of his off-field work, but what exactly is the value of his off-field contributions and how does one calculate it? Is it $500K over his on-field value? $1M? I guess what I'm asking is that if Peraza was worth $3M to them, would they have been willing to pay $3.5-4M to Holt with the overage seen as money well spent on good PR? Would Holt have leapt at that price in December?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Hernandez and Lin were available for a lot less than Peraza, no?
Available? Obviously. What Bloom viewed as good enough for the role? Clearly not. Hernandez was non-tendered, then signed, then DFA, then outrighted to the minors. If they saw him as a good fit for the Holt/Peraza spot, then why would they expose him to every team in baseball twice? Lin...kinda the same boat. He's arguably a bit of a flash in the pan. A really good 2018 season but not all that impressive outside of that. It wouldn't surprise me to see him DFA or just traded sometime in the next six weeks assuming there are no spring training injuries that open a path for him to make the OD roster. He's out of options and at best is 3rd on the depth chart at any given position.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I say this as someone who was banging the "make Holt a lifelong Sox" drum last year specifically because of his off-field work, but what exactly is the value of his off-field contributions and how does one calculate it? Is it $500K over his on-field value? $1M? I guess what I'm asking is that if Peraza was worth $3M to them, would they have been willing to pay $3.5-4M to Holt with the overage seen as money well spent on good PR? Would Holt have leapt at that price in December?
impossible to quantify, yeah. but you wonder if Holt would have stayed for even 2.5M for 1 year and we just did not offer him anything after Peraza.
 

chawson

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If Peraza has a(nother) 2.3-win season, it’s possible Bloom can trade his next two years away for something interesting and plug Downs in for 2021. That’s not true for Holt.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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impossible to quantify, yeah. but you wonder if Holt would have stayed for even 2.5M for 1 year and we just did not offer him anything after Peraza.
My assumption is that once they signed Peraza, the door was shut on Holt. It makes no sense from a roster construction standpoint to have both Holt and Peraza, even if they hit from opposite sides of the plate and Holt has all the fan favorite intangibles.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I agree with all of this, and also Bloom is trying to put longer-term pieces in place and Peraza is six years younger than Holt and is cost-controlled, if he turns out to be worth cost-controlling. Bloom's top goal is not putting together the best team for 2020, which should be obvious by now but is worth repeating.
I think it's also safe to assume, from all the evidence we have, that Bloom is bullish on Peraza's ability to rebound to his 2018 form, or better, in a Boston uniform. Which, for a 25-year-old, seems like reasonable optimism.

One intriguing thing I noticed on Peraza's spray charts at FG: He has a pretty strong affinity for medium fly balls right down the right-field line, clustering in an area that looks suspiciously like the neighborhood of Pesky's Pole.
 

strek1

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Holt is also very injury-prone. Some chronic concussion issues.

I understand completely why they moved on with Bloom in... although the intangibles with his off-field contributions seemed to not be valued.
I don't know about injury prone but I wonder if they had concerns that "Vertigo" problem could return without warning? The other thing is could they have misread how much his market value was? They moved quick to replace him and then as was said the door was closed. In any case I sure hope this pans out because Brock had value on so many levels it's hard to put a monetary amount on it. A solid versatile player , great in the clubhouse, never complained with a big fan following and award winning community / charity contributions.
 

chawson

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Downs looked awful in today's ST game, fwiw, not much, I hope.
Didn’t watch, but looking forward to seeing him play. The Sox never hand starting jobs to rookies in April, so I figure the earliest he’d become the regular 2B is May 2021, which seems doable.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Didn’t watch, but looking forward to seeing him play. The Sox never hand starting jobs to rookies in April, so I figure the earliest he’d become the regular 2B is May 2021, which seems doable.
Never? So I guess Pedroia wasn't a rookie in April 2007. Or Bogaerts in April 2014.

Projections for Downs that I've seen all suggest 2022 is his ETA, so thinking he'll be anything but a mid-season/September call up in 2021 seems optimistic.
 

bsj

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I somehow missed the terms of his contract until now.

Could we seriously not match a 1 year deal for $3.25 million for this guy? Absolutely asinine.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I somehow missed the terms of his contract until now.

Could we seriously not match a 1 year deal for $3.25 million for this guy? Absolutely asinine.
Match when? In December before they signed Peraza for $3M to do the same job? Would he have taken it then or did he only settle for that pay cut because spring training was opening and he didn't have a job yet?
 

Le Bastonois

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Purse strings over heart strings.

Believe it would have been an injustice to Brock to sign him to a one year deal.

If the Sox game him a 1 year deal and his season tanks or is injured, his free agent value in the subsequent year is shot to hell.

The Brewer (better) deal is:

20:$2.5M, 21:$5M club option ($750,000 buyout) performance bonuses based on plate appearances: $250,000 each for 400, 425, 450 PA

Sox gave Brock a chance to sign a long(er) term deal coming off two decent seasons.

José Peraza has 1 option and 2 years of team control.
 

jon abbey

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Peraza actually has three years of control including this one, through 2022.
 

Plympton91

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Purse strings over heart strings.

Believe it would have been an injustice to Brock to sign him to a one year deal.

If the Sox game him a 1 year deal and his season tanks or is injured, his free agent value in the subsequent year is shot to hell.

The Brewer (better) deal is:

20:$2.5M, 21:$5M club option ($750,000 buyout) performance bonuses based on plate appearances: $250,000 each for 400, 425, 450 PA

Sox gave Brock a chance to sign a long(er) term deal coming off two decent seasons.

José Peraza has 1 option and 2 years of team control.
Peraza actually has three years of control including this one, through 2022.
if they use the option the years of control will increase to 4.

They could have matched the contract Holt got from Milwaukee and stashed Peraza in AAA as insurance against Holt’s injuries.
 

brandonchristensen

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Never? So I guess Pedroia wasn't a rookie in April 2007. Or Bogaerts in April 2014.

Projections for Downs that I've seen all suggest 2022 is his ETA, so thinking he'll be anything but a mid-season/September call up in 2021 seems optimistic.
To be fair, Xander played in 2013 too.