Thank you, Danny Ainge
- Thread starter JimM
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One thing Steve Bulpett said on a recent Cs Beat podcast - and I know peeps have said the same thing in this forum before but Bulpett just reminded me of this - is that DA's best attribute as a GM was that he never did anything just to keep his job. He may not have been correct all the time but no one ever doubted that he was doing things in what he thought was the Cs best interest.
The real estate market may never be higher. Perfect time to sell if you are planning to live somewhere else most of the time.
Ainge gave Al a max in the first place, which many people criticized for years, I think he has to get some credit for Al too.
In all seriousness, I give DA credit for the grand slams in consecutive drafts at pick number three, the Smart pick in a bad draft (Celtics benchwarmer Nik Stauskas was picked two slots after MS at 8), finding a new age starting center at the bottom of the first round, and filling in his rotation with Grant and PP there too.
In a “what have you done for me lately” league, Ainge was smart enough to know when to depart, after not hitting on consecutive 14s, and failing to put enough of the right pieces around the Jays.
The entire rotation of this team was either drafted or signed by DA, sans Derrick White. No Celtics fan is going to forget it if Banner 18 is won this season.
In a “what have you done for me lately” league, Ainge was smart enough to know when to depart, after not hitting on consecutive 14s, and failing to put enough of the right pieces around the Jays.
The entire rotation of this team was either drafted or signed by DA, sans Derrick White. No Celtics fan is going to forget it if Banner 18 is won this season.
They have the best young core in the league, by a margin, done without blowing up the team and pivoting into several different versions of a semi-contender/actual contender. Which is a testament to a lot of things, but certainly to Ainge not blowing all of this up for one of the 8 different players everyone was screaming him to trade the farm for over the past half decade.
Book isn't totally done on Ainge though Nesmith isn't promising. There's also Yam who probably isn't anything.
It will be forever until we can evaluate Brad the drafter. Though if Juhann is a hit, that's a great start. 2nd rounders are free rolls though.
It will be forever until we can evaluate Brad the drafter. Though if Juhann is a hit, that's a great start. 2nd rounders are free rolls though.
Yam was the 47th pick in the draft. It's not remotely a black mark on Ainge's record if he misses on that one.
Can't evaluate the drafter if he never makes a 1st round pick, guytappinghistemple.jpg
Yeah, that's what I meant but I wasn't clear. I don't see the C's using a 1st round pick for awhile.
Can you blame Ainge for G Hayward physically collapsing within minutes of starting his Celtics career? Probably not.
For Kyrie having 6 months of wow and 12+ of FU? Nah, he didn't pay much to get him.
For Kemba being a wreck within 3 months. Maybe, but he had been solid the prior year.
IOW: By 2017 "Danny Ainge's luck" may have lost its power!
(paraphrasing from Red Auerbach -- https://www.theringer.com/2016/10/17/16077282/the-luck-and-genius-of-danny-ainge-bd5555ebaddc )
If there one move to blame Danny for, it is for choosing door #1 (Kyrie walks, Horford walks, Terry walks, Kemba signed) instead of door #2 (Kyrie walks, Horford is re-signed, Terry is re-signed, no Kemba). I was down on Terry after 2019 and that set of moves would not have gone over well, but, in hindsight, Horford out/Kemba in did not work out well for us.
At a bigger picture level, Danny was committed to the small, score-first PG, cycling through 3 of them during Stevens' coaching tenure and trying to develop a 4th (Rozier).
Is it an accident that the Celtics best playoff run with Stevens as coach came with the most defensively capable of Danny's little PGs (Rozier) starting? And that as soon as Stevens took over for Danny he moved the team in a different direction - and it worked?
At a bigger picture level, Danny was committed to the small, score-first PG, cycling through 3 of them during Stevens' coaching tenure and trying to develop a 4th (Rozier).
Is it an accident that the Celtics best playoff run with Stevens as coach came with the most defensively capable of Danny's little PGs (Rozier) starting? And that as soon as Stevens took over for Danny he moved the team in a different direction - and it worked?
Having a switchable defense is more important to a team featuring two star wings than having a scoring PG that can get to the rim. Not only did Brad buy into a roster with a good sized defensive oriented PG, he doubled down with the Derrick White acquisition.
Do we even know that Al returning was on the table? I’m sure that money matters, but the reporting at the time suggested that he was turned off by the clubhouse as I recall.
The contract he was offered by Philly was supposedly much larger than what Ainge was willing to offer at the time. But, IIRC, Horford also took the Philly offer once he received it and really didn't give Boston much, if any, opportunity to better Philly's offer. I don't know if Horford and his agent felt there was no need to give Boston the opportunity (after all, his agent should have had an idea of what Boston was willing to offer), or if Horford really wanted out; or if it was a little bit of both (my guess).
From everything I've read, it was mostly Al's choice, and one he came to quickly regret. Whenever he's talked about it since, you can almost smell the relief that he didn't end up destroying the end of his career with that decision.
He also wanted to play the 4, which is why Philly. But part of his dissatisfaction was also that the Celtics weren't pro-active about contract talks, I think they more or less made him a take it or leave it discount offer - or at least an initial offer low enough to sour him on a return.
I think this board covered this topic well, and fairly, when Ainge first stepped down. Ainge had a very good to great run in Boston. He made some mistakes along the way, as every exec does, but won a championship and with better luck probably wins one to two others. We were very lucky to have him, and he left the Celtics well positioned for the next championship run, with Tatum, Brown, TL, Smart…and Brad. His legacy is much more than secure. And it was also probably the right time for him to move on. I think all of this pretty well captures the sentiment of posters here at the time the move was made. The only thing that’s really changed since then is that we now have confirmation that, with Brad and Ime running the show, the Celtics appear to be in quite capable hands.
What the fuck, people? Philly overpaid to get their Embiid killer off their conference rival. There was literally zero chance the Celtics would—or should—have offered Al $95M.
This board way overstates Danny’s mistakes largely because the team had a broken Kemba the last season he was here and thin depth that year. If Hayward doesn’t shatter his ankle and Kemba’s knee doesn’t get destroyed in the ASG (by Nick Nurse?) we likely have another banner or two. As importantly, we don’t go through all the roster turnover and cap machinations that came with losing Al and Hayward. He was absolutely one of the league’s best executives and kept them competitive despite a number of devastating and unpredictable injuries over which he had zero control. Even last year’s flawed team probably wins a few against the Nets if Jaylen a wrist doesn’t go to shit.
Likewise, we underestimate Brad’s coaching prowess because of how the team played and was perceived to have responded to him over two seasons – one in which he had a star completely go off the rails while another played his way back from a devastating injury and another two years later in which the roster was thinner than it had been in any season since probably 2015. Meanwhile we hand wave how Brad brought a team of rookies and also-rans to within a game of the Finals and had them in multiple Conference Finals in the midst of most of this – instead we invent some narrative about how he couldn’t manage “established stars.”
Maybe it’s hard to acknowledge because the team consistently and immediately bounced back multiple times, but this Celtics team has been incredibly unlucky and these two worked incredibly well together for almost a decade. As elated as I am about this team at present, I feel reasonably confident they would have again if Danny hadn’t run out of gas with his health and the pandemic.
This board way overstates Danny’s mistakes largely because the team had a broken Kemba the last season he was here and thin depth that year. If Hayward doesn’t shatter his ankle and Kemba’s knee doesn’t get destroyed in the ASG (by Nick Nurse?) we likely have another banner or two. As importantly, we don’t go through all the roster turnover and cap machinations that came with losing Al and Hayward. He was absolutely one of the league’s best executives and kept them competitive despite a number of devastating and unpredictable injuries over which he had zero control. Even last year’s flawed team probably wins a few against the Nets if Jaylen a wrist doesn’t go to shit.
Likewise, we underestimate Brad’s coaching prowess because of how the team played and was perceived to have responded to him over two seasons – one in which he had a star completely go off the rails while another played his way back from a devastating injury and another two years later in which the roster was thinner than it had been in any season since probably 2015. Meanwhile we hand wave how Brad brought a team of rookies and also-rans to within a game of the Finals and had them in multiple Conference Finals in the midst of most of this – instead we invent some narrative about how he couldn’t manage “established stars.”
Maybe it’s hard to acknowledge because the team consistently and immediately bounced back multiple times, but this Celtics team has been incredibly unlucky and these two worked incredibly well together for almost a decade. As elated as I am about this team at present, I feel reasonably confident they would have again if Danny hadn’t run out of gas with his health and the pandemic.
Whoever suggested Ainge should have his number retired was right. I don't think he did enough for long enough as a player, but add in his record as an executive (build the 2008 team, dissassemble that team to get the draft picks needed to rebuild, rebuild effectively with those picks, leave in place a legit title contender whose stars were drafted by Ainge, whose 8 man playoff rotation has 6 players drafted by Ainge and one Ainge free agent signing even though he left and was reacquired after Aingle left). He also hired a good coach to oversee the rebuilding, and that coach went on to succeed him and make the right moves.
I wish there was an award Danny and Brad can share. I put them above Ime for one simple reason - Brad hired Ime.
They had a broken Kemba after the bubble. The best chance the Brad-coached Celtics had to reach the finals after 2018 was the bubble playoffs. But Kemba was damaged goods then, as was Hayward.
Anyway, I'd ratire Danny's number (or name). He's more than earned that. If Maxwell can be retired, Danny should be.
Where Danny failed (and the Hayward injury was a big part of it), was in getting the team over the top.
My only real quibble with this post is that, to me, it reflects how most people around here feel about the situation. Perhaps I’m wrong about that, but I think most posters agree with this take.
I hadn’t thought about this. I think it’s a terrific idea and I hope the team does this. He has 100 percent earned it.
Al has agency too, and he very quickly came to see leaving Boston as a mistake.
Wrt the money: he's made a ton of it, and is clearly someone who cares about winning and playing in a good environment. He thought Philly would be that, and it wasn't.
I don't blame him particularly, but the idea that he made a mistake in balancing the money-winning-satisfaction equation is something I think Al himself would readily agree with.
I can’t blame Al for choosing money and potentially greener pastures after what happened that season. But I also don’t blame Danny or Brad for any of it.
I do think the question as to whether Danny should have brought Kemba in at max dollars or resigned Terry Rozier is a legitimate one. But Terry was coming off an ugly 2018 campaign and it wasn’t entirely clear that Tatum and Brown were going to take the next step after they both arguably took a bit of a step backwards that season as well.(Tatum’s admitted it as much on the JJ Redick podcast) Maybe Danny didn’t bet on their talent the way Brad did this off-season, but I’m also not sure that Brad had a choice given the cap situation. The point being, it was completely defensible move for Danny to sign Kemba given that Brad knew how to cover for the Smurf point guard in his system.
I would be interested to know, however, whether there was any discussion about Marcus at the point following Kyrie's departure and how Danny felt about it.
Sure but I don’t think part of that contract from Danny would have included Al sitting out almost an entire season for roster management reasons. Al has looked fresher this season than probably any year since 2017 maybe. It’s hard to see that happening if he plays out the string of his contract to this point.
Bringing this back to Danny, one last point: I think the Hayward signing should have gone down as Danny's coup de gras. The dude was perfect for not only the version of this team with Kyrie and Al, but also the one with an emerging Tatum and Brown. He could play the point a little, he could defend. He could rebound and score. And he didn’t need to be "the guy." He was an athletic 6'7" version of Brad. We saw flashes of it two seasons after his injury in the bubble year, but most of that got swallowed up in fallout from the Kyrie drama and more ongoing injuries. But even if things had more or less played out the way they did with Kyrie, I actually don’t think Danny would have signed Kemba to replace him had Hayward stayed healthy. I get that this is a results-based job and don't blame people if they see this chapter as something of a bust, but you don’t have to squint too hard to see how franchise-altering this move could--and maybe should--have been given the talent the guy would have had around him in Tatum, Brown, Smart, etc.
Agree with your post and just to add, reports from that time was that Al wanted additional years and the Cs were willing to give him a 4-year deal but for less guaranteed money. Other subsequent reports were that Al thought he had a better chance winning a title with PHI. I guess even talented, cerebral basketball players don't always make very good GMs.
I'll note that we're likely only happy about Al's contract because he was able to take a year off.
This is a super interesting question.
If I had to guess, the only thing I might ding DA on - and I'm a big DA supporter - is that he underestimated JT and JB. He brought Kyrie and Kemba in ostensibly (and IIRC) because he wanted someone who could take be the lead guy down the stretch and take pressure off JT and JB. As it turns out, KI and KW may have held the two of them back.
As for TRoz, I know everyone thinks we should have re-signed him but (again IIRC) there was no way he was resigning here. DA wasn't giving him the money MJ did and TRoz lobbed a few bombs to get out BOS.
I’d like to see Ainge’s number in the rafters. The next retired number will require a new banner. Although the Celtics retire a lot of numbers, a brand new banner would likely be someone significant in Celtic history. If the next retired number were a player on the current roster, it might be 15 years until that opportunity comes. I don’t think there are any former Celtics who will get the nod.
He won two championships in his 7+ seasons with Boston. Nearly two decades running basketball operations netted one title and he left the team in a strong state.
He won two championships in his 7+ seasons with Boston. Nearly two decades running basketball operations netted one title and he left the team in a strong state.
Sorry for not adding more, but @Van Everyman is dead on with everything he's said in this thread, including the suggestion that Ainge should have his number retired.
When people tell the story of the post Pierce and KG Celtics, if the Hayward injury isn't one of the first 2-3 things mentioned, they're missing just how uniquely impactful that was, and what we left on the table when we lost him. It was masterful GM'ing by Ainge that we had a number of free agents walk out the door and the team is STILL in as good a position as they are. I think he had a rockier run post-Kyrie trade (that was a pivot point) in draft, trades, and cap maneuvering, but he still didn't screw up the big stuff, and that run from June 2013 to August 2017 was just about perfect, to say nothing of assembling the '08 team the era before.
When people tell the story of the post Pierce and KG Celtics, if the Hayward injury isn't one of the first 2-3 things mentioned, they're missing just how uniquely impactful that was, and what we left on the table when we lost him. It was masterful GM'ing by Ainge that we had a number of free agents walk out the door and the team is STILL in as good a position as they are. I think he had a rockier run post-Kyrie trade (that was a pivot point) in draft, trades, and cap maneuvering, but he still didn't screw up the big stuff, and that run from June 2013 to August 2017 was just about perfect, to say nothing of assembling the '08 team the era before.
One other factor that colors Ainge's perceived track record here is that Ainge's good luck with the Brown/Tatum draft lotteries back-to-back regressed to the mean after the Tatum draft.
It wasn't too surprising that the Lakers would finish outside the bottom 5 after 2 consecutive #2 picks netted them Russell and Ingram. But the Kings unexpectedly having their best winning percentage in 13 years cost Ainge a chance to pick up a nice complementary player in the top half of that draft and netted them an injured project instead. And, of course, Memphis gets the #2 pick and probably the best player in that same draft. Which, in turn, resulted in the Nesmith pick and the perceived need for Ainge to trade out of the Bane slot.
None of the above is really Ainge's fault, and Nesmith's canvas is still being painted. Just that Ainge's perceived drafting acumen probably gets a huge boost if he was able to draft Herro or Haliburton. Fortunately, as noted, some of his other picks look to be solid doubles (Grant, Pritchard) with a potential home run in the case of TimeLord.
It wasn't too surprising that the Lakers would finish outside the bottom 5 after 2 consecutive #2 picks netted them Russell and Ingram. But the Kings unexpectedly having their best winning percentage in 13 years cost Ainge a chance to pick up a nice complementary player in the top half of that draft and netted them an injured project instead. And, of course, Memphis gets the #2 pick and probably the best player in that same draft. Which, in turn, resulted in the Nesmith pick and the perceived need for Ainge to trade out of the Bane slot.
None of the above is really Ainge's fault, and Nesmith's canvas is still being painted. Just that Ainge's perceived drafting acumen probably gets a huge boost if he was able to draft Herro or Haliburton. Fortunately, as noted, some of his other picks look to be solid doubles (Grant, Pritchard) with a potential home run in the case of TimeLord.
In 15 years we'll have a few more championship banners up there and 44 will get retired along with 0, 7, and 36.
I am going to have to Google to try and find this but I thought that Horford accepted a deal from the Sixers because he thought the Celtics wouldn’t have the cap room to sign him and didn’t want to play with Kyrie?
I believe the Celtics then cleared room and made him a similar offer (though less $ than Philly) but by that time Al had already made the commitment and didn’t want to break it
I believe the Celtics then cleared room and made him a similar offer (though less $ than Philly) but by that time Al had already made the commitment and didn’t want to break it
The Celtics didn't need cap room; they could have used the Bird exception for Horford to resign him.
IIRC, there was some cap maneuvering required, and they got there at the last minute, but it was too late. I may be butchering this, but I think they had to renounce Horford's cap hold to sign Kemba - then, instead, they turned it into an S&T involving Rozier, which could've left us with Al's Bird rights, but he stuck with his commitment to Philly.
After Brown and Tatum, Ainge drafted Rob, Langford, Grant, Nesmith, Pritchard.
At worst, that’s a starter and 2 rotation players on a championship contending team. That’s a decent haul, and perhaps pretty good value for the (not too 5) picks.
At worst, that’s a starter and 2 rotation players on a championship contending team. That’s a decent haul, and perhaps pretty good value for the (not too 5) picks.
And before that he nailed the Rozier and Smart picks. We’ve all litigated the Olynyk decision but dude’s still in the league and has been productive so that was another hit. Guys like Young, Langford, and probably Nesmith were misses but they weren’t high picks.
Ainge has basically nailed every high-ish pick he had and deserves a lot of praise for it.
This success rate probably contributed to him holding onto the MEM and SAC picks.
Langford was also the key piece in getting White. I guess some would argue the pick swap, but I don't know.
The biggest is still him taking Tatum when probably every other GM in the league takes Fultz.
Spurs didn't even play Langford. He was matching salary.
I'd say the key piece is the 2022 1st round pick.
Yes, it wasn't the cap space. My take at the time was they were simply not going to pay what they thought the market would offer him and didn't make much of an effort to extend him either...
Back to Ainge: yes hang the the name but not number (playing career wasn't enough alone). Pure conjecture : he also left right on time. Maybe he shifts his mindset into win now but I don't think he would have gotten this roster settled with the Al move or the White one (I think he would have clung to his picks and waited).