Cinncy is at 90 games. Without a playoff win.
There are mistakes all over that chart it appears.
There are mistakes all over that chart it appears.
Line from a great Rolling Stones song "You make a grown man cry", and then laughter from watching that.
For all of the credit Sony Michel gets for that playoff run, Burkhead was the guy on the field whenever they had an actual do or die drive.
That's a bit misleading I feel.
Michel got the carries at the end of the Superbowl when trying to pound it out from the shadow of there endzone.
I think it was more situational packages than that it was always Burkhead.
22 years ago today Tom Brady got his knee rolled up in Pittsburgh, Drew came off the bench and threw a TD in relief, Troy Brown returned a punt for a TD and they also blocked a FG and returned that for a TD. All things considered maybe the most improbable win of the Dynasty.
Maybe my favorite drive of all time. Well, top 5. Other thoughts:
-35’s frustration is palpable.
-I never forgave Patterson for not hauling in those two passes.
- I wish they had connected on that flea flicker- that would have been such a stylish way to walk it off. Same way I feel about that PI in OT in suber bowl 51- wish Bennett had hauled it in.
- Romo basically nailed that whole drive.
Those Steelers team were so damn hateable. Didn’t Bill Cowher tell the team to take care of their Super Bowl plans and tickets during the week? They thought they caught a huge break with the Pats beating the Raiders and were arrogant as usual. What a satisfying win.
Wasn't Patterson fouled on both passes?
The second one definitely should have been a personal foul for leading with/hitting the head.
I love when #35 sat on his butt after another Edelman catch, hitting the ground in frustration. It was beautiful.
Patterson could have caught them but they were all over him.
The flea flicker was there if only Hogan had initially turned his body to the corner instead of the post. It was WIDE open. Brady wisely threw it away though. That would have been an epic ending.
Romo was on point, calling the Edelman in motion and Brady hitting him over the middle, and then saying the pass was going to Gronk on that other third down.
Related/unrelated but a low-key disappointment from losing the 2nd Eagles Superbowl was not being able to thank the Steelers for the big plays James Harrison made in the AFCCG.
The Chiefs the past few years have seemed completely unstoppable. If Mahomes plays until the end of his age 40 season, that’s twelve more years. If he averages 5000 yards, 35 touchdowns, and a 14-3 record every year, he would cement himself as second place in yards, touchdowns, and wins.
I’m not that old, in my 40s but when I read stuff like this I’m amazed to be alive to look back on it all 22 years later
Well nfl twitter tonight already anointed him and Reid and Kelce as the goats so no need to wait
They scored 17 against the Ravens.. why are they going to steamroll the 9ers who have an as good or better offense and defense than the Ravens?
While all the talk has been about the slow dissolution of KC's receiving threats, their defense has been far, far better this year than previous, their running game is legit (so ball control is as much a part of their game as anything), their young receivers have improved over last year, and Kelce went from limping around in prior games to beast mode yesterday. I don't think it'll be a steamrolling, but I do think KC will win, sigh.
In particular, SF has a couple of linebackers in Fred Warner and Dre Greenlaw that should do a better job covering Kelce than has been done so far.
WEEI today was dealing with the question of whose start to their career was better: Mahomes' or Brady's, and it was based on a KC win in two weeks. If KC wins, then that tips the scales to Mahomes. If SF wins, then it's still Brady.
First six years (not counting their first years, respectively, where neither played hardly at all).
Brady
2001 - 11-3, 2,843 yds, 18 td, 12 int, 86.5 rating, 111 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2002 - 9-7, 3,764 yds, 28 td, 14 int, 85.7 rating, 110 rate+, missed playoffs
2003 - 14-2, 3,620 yds, 23 td, 12 int, 85.9 rating, 107 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2004 - 14-2, 3,692 yds, 28 td, 14 int, 92.6 rating, 115 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2005 - 10-6, 4,110 yds, 26 td, 14 int, 92.3 rating, 114 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2006 - 12-4, 3,529 yds, 24 td, 12 int, 87.9 rating, 109 rate+, 2-1 in playoffs
TOTAL - 70-24 (.745), 21,558 yds, 147 td, 78 int, 12-2 in playoffs, 4 AFCCGs, 3 SB appearances, 3 SB titles, 3 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro, 0 MVP
Mahomes
2018 - 12-4, 5,097 yds, 50 td, 12 int, 113.8 rating, 131 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2019 - 11-3, 4,031 yds, 26 td, 5 int, 105.3 rating, 117 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2020 - 14-1, 4,740 yds, 38 td, 6 int, 108.2 rating, 122 rate+, 2-1 in playoffs
2021 - 12-5, 4,839 yds, 37 td, 13 int, 98.5 rating, 109 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2022 - 14-3, 5,250 yds, 41 td, 12 int, 105.2 rating, 124 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2023 - 10-6, 4,183 yds, 27 td, 14 int, 92.6 rating, 106 rate+, 2-0 in playoffs, in SB in two weeks
TOTAL - 73-22 (.768), 28,140 yds, 219 td, 62 int, 12-3 in playoffs, 6 AFCCGs, 2 SB titles, 6 Pro Bowl, 2 All-Pro, 2 MVP
So if KC wins, then it's clearly Mahomes over their respective first six years, even accounting for the difference in eras in which they played. But if KC loses, then yeah, I still give it to Brady only because (a) he'd have 3 SB titles to Mahomes' 2, and (b) he would have knocked Mahomes out twice, once in the AFCCG, and again in the Super Bowl. Those are definite tiebreakers.
But if KC wins, it's kind of Mahomes in a blowout really.
Doesn't mean he will match Brady's career - there's wayyyyyy too long to go for that - but for the *start* of their careers...yeah, Mahomes, if KC wins.
First six years (not counting their first years, respectively, where neither played hardly at all).
Brady
2001 - 11-3, 2,843 yds, 18 td, 12 int, 86.5 rating, 111 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2002 - 9-7, 3,764 yds, 28 td, 14 int, 85.7 rating, 110 rate+, missed playoffs
2003 - 14-2, 3,620 yds, 23 td, 12 int, 85.9 rating, 107 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2004 - 14-2, 3,692 yds, 28 td, 14 int, 92.6 rating, 115 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2005 - 10-6, 4,110 yds, 26 td, 14 int, 92.3 rating, 114 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2006 - 12-4, 3,529 yds, 24 td, 12 int, 87.9 rating, 109 rate+, 2-1 in playoffs
TOTAL - 70-24 (.745), 21,558 yds, 147 td, 78 int, 12-2 in playoffs, 4 AFCCGs, 3 SB appearances, 3 SB titles, 3 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro, 0 MVP
Mahomes
2018 - 12-4, 5,097 yds, 50 td, 12 int, 113.8 rating, 131 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2019 - 11-3, 4,031 yds, 26 td, 5 int, 105.3 rating, 117 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2020 - 14-1, 4,740 yds, 38 td, 6 int, 108.2 rating, 122 rate+, 2-1 in playoffs
2021 - 12-5, 4,839 yds, 37 td, 13 int, 98.5 rating, 109 rate+, 1-1 in playoffs
2022 - 14-3, 5,250 yds, 41 td, 12 int, 105.2 rating, 124 rate+, 3-0 in playoffs, SB title
2023 - 10-6, 4,183 yds, 27 td, 14 int, 92.6 rating, 106 rate+, 2-0 in playoffs, in SB in two weeks
TOTAL - 73-22 (.768), 28,140 yds, 219 td, 62 int, 12-3 in playoffs, 6 AFCCGs, 2 SB titles, 6 Pro Bowl, 2 All-Pro, 2 MVP
So if KC wins, then it's clearly Mahomes over their respective first six years, even accounting for the difference in eras in which they played. But if KC loses, then yeah, I still give it to Brady only because (a) he'd have 3 SB titles to Mahomes' 2, and (b) he would have knocked Mahomes out twice, once in the AFCCG, and again in the Super Bowl. Those are definite tiebreakers.
But if KC wins, it's kind of Mahomes in a blowout really.
Doesn't mean he will match Brady's career - there's wayyyyyy too long to go for that - but for the *start* of their careers...yeah, Mahomes, if KC wins.
This is all very silly. Brady had 28 touchdown passes in 2002 - he led the league that year. That number is worse than all but 2 of Mahomes seasons.
The game is entirely different. Look at the TD passes for each guy. It's WAY more of a passing league now than it was in the early 2000s. In fact, you can probably credit Brady and BB for changing the league in 2007 with how the Pats decided to throw for a million TDs.
Mahomes is awesome, but these numbers don't speak to anything regarding how the NFL is played today vs 20 years ago.
I totally get that but pro-football-reference has this rate+ metric that’s like ERA+ or OPS+, which measures their passer rating against the league, so it takes into account the era in which they played. And Mahomes so far has been far better against his peers than Brady was against his for Tom’s first six seasons. Plus Mahomes was all pro twice and has two MVPs already and Brady didn’t get that til year seven in 2007.
So Brady’s advantage is in SB titles, three to two. Which is why if Mahomes loses in two weeks, Brady still gets the edge. But if Mahomes wins, they’re tied in SB titles, Mahomes is ahead in conference championship appearances, and blows Brady away in individual awards and stats, even factoring in the era in which they played.
Brady’s individual awards and accolades and stats didn’t really hit the stratosphere until 2007. And of course he was GREAT all the way through til he was 45 years of age. This discussion isn’t about who’s the GOAT. It’s Brady by miles. It’s just over whose first six season is better.
Up until 2007, Brady’s best ANY/A+ was 118. Mahomes has topped that in 4 out of 6 seasons. Brady’s best Rating+ was 115, again, Mahomes has topped that 4 out 6 (Brady only 4 times in his entire career surpassed Mahomes’s 2022 rating+ of 124)
adjusted for era paints the same picture. Mahomes’s first 6 seasons are basically on par statistically with 2010-2016 Brady. He doesn’t have that 2007 all time type year but Brady’s first 6 seasons - again statistically as a passer - weren’t as good as Mahomes’s
There’s a lot of reasons why that could be the case - better receiving talent in KC, different team offensive gameplans, better offensive mind (Reid) and so forth. But what Mahomes has done in 6 years is incredible. The chances he can, like Brady did, keep going for 15 more years is extremely unlikely but with “only” 10 more seasons like his current body of work, he’s going to win a few more super bowls (unless KC has a drought and flukey helmet catches, injuries etc) and have a very legitimate argument for GOAT. But so many things need to happen, and he will at some point need to survive the loss of Reid (presumably) that it’s improbable. But winning another Super Bowl this year, and perhaps being Super Bowl MVP, is going to at least crack the door open to having the conversation of where he already stands all time. How many more rings/great seasons does he need to surpass P.Manning, Montana, Marino (etc)?
All-time Patriots' Super Bowl Team (based *only* on performances in the Super Bowl). All Super Bowls are included, but obviously players who played in more Super Bowls have a chance to make a bigger difference. Plus, in their first two attempts, they got hammered, so not many players played well vs. Chi and GB.
QB - Tom Brady
RB - James White
WR - Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Troy Brown
TE - Rob Gronkowski
OL - (not qualified to say)
DE - Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest
DT - Vince Wilfork
LB - Dont'a Hightower, Mike Vrabel, Kyle Van Noy
CB - Ty Law, Stephon Gilmore
S - Rodney Harrison, Devin McCourty
K - Adam Vinatieri
QB - Tom Brady
RB - James White
WR - Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Troy Brown
TE - Rob Gronkowski
OL - (not qualified to say)
DE - Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest
DT - Vince Wilfork
LB - Dont'a Hightower, Mike Vrabel, Kyle Van Noy
CB - Ty Law, Stephon Gilmore
S - Rodney Harrison, Devin McCourty
K - Adam Vinatieri
I’m going to nominate Russ Hochstein for his fill-in performance against a dominant Panthers DL in SB39 and JR Redmond on the basis of that final drive against the Rams (just managing to stretch the ball out of bounds to stop the clock with 35 seconds to go)
Shane Vereen and Danny Amendola definitely belong on the roster as well.
Shane Vereen and Danny Amendola definitely belong on the roster as well.
QB - Tom Brady
RB - James White
WR - Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Danny Amendola
TE - Rob Gronkowski
OL - (not qualified to say)
DE - Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest
DT - Vince Wilfork
LB - Dont'a Hightower, Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi
CB - Ty Law, Stephon Gilmore
S - Rodney Harrison, Devin McCourty
K - Adam Vinatieri
Considered Antowain Smith, but White was better.
RB - James White
WR - Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Danny Amendola
TE - Rob Gronkowski
OL - (not qualified to say)
DE - Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest
DT - Vince Wilfork
LB - Dont'a Hightower, Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi
CB - Ty Law, Stephon Gilmore
S - Rodney Harrison, Devin McCourty
K - Adam Vinatieri
Considered Antowain Smith, but White was better.
Obviously Bledsoe should be QB. He threw 2 touchdowns in the first quarter in the Super Bowl while Brady only lead the Patriots to 3 points in the first quarter of his 9 Super Bowls COMBINED*. (I turned every game off after the first quarter though so I don't know what either of them did after that.)
*Yes, this is a real stat.
Mankins and Welker are two guys I have a hard time thinking of as “Patriot greats” despite being consistently the best or top 2 at their position (LG and slot receiver). Mankins actually would be a guy I’d argue should be have a shot at the HOF.
as great as Mankins was, his disappearing act in big playoff games and the tendency to take idiotic penalties at exactly the worst time drove me crazy. And Welker’s drop in SB46 still haunts me (and his drop in the 2012 playoff against Baltimore bothers me too).
I'm sure if I were to go back and watch all the games that Welker would shine brighter than ever. The biggest problem I have with him, or more to the point, the memories of him, is that I liked Edelman so much better. Just like BB-Ernie on the sidelines, Jules "wally pipped" my memories of Welker...or Wekler as he's known in my house.
James White's performance against Atlanta was just incredible.
6 rushes, 29 yards, 4.8 y/att, 2 td, 14 rec, 110 yds, 7.9 y/c, 1 td, 1 two-point conversion, and had the game-winning TD in overtime
Didn't get the MVP because Brady set a Super Bowl record with 466 yards passing (on 62 attempts!) and 2 touchdowns, and was absolutely incredible in the fourth quarter and overtime. But nobody would have complained had White gotten the award that day.
Looking at the stats from that game, holy smokes the Patriots utterly dominated the numbers:
First downs: NE 37 (!), Atl 17
Total yards: NE 546, Atl 344
3rd downs: NE 7-14, Atl 1-8
Time of Poss: NE 40:31, Atl 23:27
Even in the first half when Atlanta took the big lead, the Patriots were moving the ball easily. They just had the Blount fumble and the Brady pick six that killed them.
New England's last 5 possessions in the game (not counting the last play of regulation):
(down 28-3) - 13 plays, 75 yards, TD (missed PAT)
(down 28-9) - 11 plays, 72 yards, FG
(down 28-12) - 5 plays, 25 yards, TD (successful 2-point conversion)
(down 28-20) - 10 plays, 91 yards, TD (successful 2-point conversion)
(tied 28-28) - 9 plays, 75 yards, TD (no conversion; game over)
So in those five possessions: 48 plays, 338 yards, four TDs, one FG, 31 points scored
Just amazing.
Edelman made the insane playoff catches and Welker missed the *one* catch. I understand this.
Speak for yourself. I would have absolutely been complaining if White won it over Brady. That would have been one of the bigger snubs in SB history. Maybe the biggest. 466 yards, by far the biggest comeback in SB history.
The most hilarious memory I have of this game was the missed PAT. For whatever reason, that completely set me off. I was steady and unflappable the whole first half, even with the turnovers and the worrying speed gap when ATL had the ball. I even got some compliments from my wife for my seemingly new-found maturity.
That was only temporary, though.
I'm sure beer was a factor, but that whole drive - which took its own sweet time - I'm just thinking about how many possessions they have left and starting to get anxious. By the end of the drive, I figured they needed at least one turnover to have a chance. Then when SG clanged the PAT, I just lost it. All Kirk, no Spock, man. Lasted a few minutes before I settled back down. I thought that ATL would just run it and bleed the game out. But that's why we watch, baby!
I'm right there with you. Like everyone else, I was doing the maths. My wife, who's a bit of a (looking over my shoulder to makes sure she isn't in the room...) front runner, stopped watching in the first half after the pick six. She had come back into the room after the Pats score to see how things were going. I said that they'd probably need a turnover at some point...and then the missed PAT. Sigh. I knew the maths got harder after that and might need another possession for a FG. It's really hard to pin your hopes on two successful conversions.
Oh for sure Brady deserved it. But White was mind-bogglingly good, and Brady did have a pick-six which, you know, kinda mattered a lot. So White was also deserving.
Maybe it’s unfair because I carry such a torch for the 2010 team, but I more or less permanently soured on Welker after the press conference where he made all the Rex Ryan foot jokes. It was completely unnecessary and probably contributed to them coming out so flat against the Jets.
And then the following year, he didn't catch the game winning ball. It is hard to forget, I get it.
I always sensed that BB didn't like Welker as much as Edelman and that factors in my mind. There's the whole Rex Ryan thing which clearly BB deemed disrespectful and the block Welker made as a Bronco on Talib which BB took exception to...and that's countered with the clear mutual love shared on the field after the Falcons comeback. I think Jules praised him mic'ed up as well after the Rams win. All that means something.
Welker was great though, no doubt.
Playoff stats with New England:
Welker: 9 g, 90 targets, 69 rec (76.7%), 686 yds, 9.9 y/c, 4 td, 5-5 record (0-2 in SB)
Edelman: 19 g, 180 targets, 118 rec (65.5%), 1,442 yds, 12.2 y/c, 5 td, 13-6 record (3-1 in SB - he missed the Philly SB with injury), 1 SB MVP
Welker: 9 g, 90 targets, 69 rec (76.7%), 686 yds, 9.9 y/c, 4 td, 5-5 record (0-2 in SB)
Edelman: 19 g, 180 targets, 118 rec (65.5%), 1,442 yds, 12.2 y/c, 5 td, 13-6 record (3-1 in SB - he missed the Philly SB with injury), 1 SB MVP
WES WELKER WAS DOMINANT. I can't believe there's any disparagement of him beyond one iffy incompletion and his being kind of an idiot about Rex Ryan. He was an unreal weapon for the Patriots. There is a level of shrugging about his time in New England that is due, I guess, in part to how much we love Edelman and how enormous he came up in big spots - Edelman is top 3 Patriots for me - but I can't believe the short memory so many fans have. He was unbelievable. Insanely productive. An all-time GREAT Patriot.
If you look at Welker's per-game stats compared to Edelman's, Welker's are better (except for Y/C). Of course, Edelman came up biggest in the big spots - game-winning TD vs. Seattle, the incredible catch vs. Atlanta, and then the SB MVP performance vs. the Rams.
As far as this website indicates:
Most receptions in a season by a Patriot: 123, Welker (2009)
Most receiving yards in a season by a Patriot: 1,569 Welker (2011)
Welker's legacy is complicated by the Super Bowl drop (which, to be clear, was also not a great throw) and leaving to play with Peyton and the hated Broncos. Still, behind Moss and Gronk, at his peak he may well have been the 3rd best receiver of the dynasty.
Most receptions in a season by a Patriot: 123, Welker (2009)
Most receiving yards in a season by a Patriot: 1,569 Welker (2011)
Welker's legacy is complicated by the Super Bowl drop (which, to be clear, was also not a great throw) and leaving to play with Peyton and the hated Broncos. Still, behind Moss and Gronk, at his peak he may well have been the 3rd best receiver of the dynasty.
Last edited:
I'm not sure there's a "he may well have been" about it. He was absolutely dominant. Practically unstoppable on 3rd down. It's such a shame how things turned out with him.
Yeah it might not be fair to him but finishing the job matters a lot to people. Edelman gets bonus points for coming up huge in the biggest games. Welker doesn't. It's that simple.