The 2017/2018 Boston Celtics Regular season thread
- Thread starter Cesar Crespo
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The only way I can get there on Jah, if I *really* squint, is that the Celtics seem to have liked him for the past few years, and their track record of evaluating other teams' NBA talent is extremely good.
On the other hand, with someone like Kyrie, at least you had some evidence that he could turn it up on defense, and was being misused on offense. I haven't ever seen that with Jahlil.
On the other hand, with someone like Kyrie, at least you had some evidence that he could turn it up on defense, and was being misused on offense. I haven't ever seen that with Jahlil.
He was on radio postgame and sounds exactly like you or I would trying to imitate what we think a German sounds like. It makes me like him even more.
He has a similar motor to Jerebko and isn't as good a shooter but does laps around him in his defense and rebounding abilities. Loving him so far.
He was DPOY for his league last year, his defense didn't come out of nowhere. I did I think it would take him longer to adjust to the NBA game but 8 games in I've gone from "hope he can hold his own and give them some bench minutes" to "he can split starting duties with Morris next year if they can't re-sign Baynes and can't afford to replace him."
My favorite part of this season is the defense. After the Kyrie trade (and the subsequent Avery Bradley deal) the concern trolls were saying, "The Celtics are going to struggle on defense! How are they going to replace Bradley and Crowder?!"
We knew what we had with Marcus Smart. But Horford is playing at such a high level right now. Factor in Kyrie who is playing much better defense than anyone would have expected and the X-factor in Semi.
I'm so giddy right now.
We knew what we had with Marcus Smart. But Horford is playing at such a high level right now. Factor in Kyrie who is playing much better defense than anyone would have expected and the X-factor in Semi.
I'm so giddy right now.
Defense is mostly about work. One advantage to replacing 75% of the roster is that new guys don't usually get complacent.
That and I don't think people ever fully grasped just how terrible IT4 is on defense and how it affected the rest of the team. The Celtics also added some much needed length too.
It's also mostly about experience, and it's really remarkable what the Celtics are doing with (I think?) the youngest team in the league.
Brian Windhorst was on Zach Lowe's podcast yesterday and said that when weighted by minutes played, the Celtics are the youngest team in the league, with Cleveland as the oldest.
I think we knew how terrible IT was on defense. The defense in the playoffs looked like 5 on 4 basketball. The extra height that Kyrie brings to that position is extremely important. IT would be a good defender if he were 5 inches taller and had 7 inches more wingspan, but alas it was not meant to be.
Size, length, versatility and athleticism are also important for team D. IT was a terrible defender, but also his size combined with Bradley's size were killers. The current team can switch much better because of the number of long athletic guys so while Jaylen isn't the man up defender Avery is his size makes it easier for the whole defense, same with Rozier and Kyrie at the point. Switching is easier and nobody has to cheat off to help out a physically overmatched player.
At the NBA level I don't believe this is completely true although effort and commitment to defense is obviously important. Isaiah could work as hard as he wanted defensively and in the playoffs he is going to be gameplanned to be taken advantage of while the other 4 defenders are negatively affected as NBA defense now more than ever is Team Defense. Kyrie is a defensive upgrade as he is capable of physically competing which allows the team defense to no longer have to cover up for Isaiah on that end of the floor.
Kyrie unintentionally tossing some shade at a certain Suns rookie. It sounds more pointed in the video than in the snippet below.
http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/11/kyrie_irving_boston_celtics_ja.html
http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/11/kyrie_irving_boston_celtics_ja.html
Yup. In the same way, Avery Bradley could be one of the hardest working defenders on the floor, and Demar Derozan is still going to be able to elevate over him.
Which is why the length of this team has been such an advantage so far. You can't teach octopus arms.
Yup, and you also need to compare apples to apples--Avery was only a star man-up defender against 1s. Jaylen can credibly guard 2s, 3s, and sometimes 4s 1-on-1.
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Going by the Kyrie Irving trade thread, you wouldn't have thought it, since apparently Kyrie just doesn't play defense.
Watching the Cavaliers' system and what they've done with/to Crowder, I'd still maintain the bigger problem with Kyrie's D was basically Cleveland.
I shudder to picture what will happen to IT4's D in Cleveland.
All really good points on the hard work angle that I should have thought through more before posting. I guess it remains as true as ever that you can't teach height/size. It also goes to show (again) how good Stevens is. He had an undersized team last year play credible defense most of the time. Now that the bigs are actually big, the wings more wingy, and the guards not as tiny, this year's bunch should end up ranked pretty high.
I think we all knew he was terrible, just not to this extend. Prior to this season, a lot of people were saying Kyrie is just as bad. Maybe it was effort. Al Horford looks much better this year too. It's hard to say how much of it is IT4 when the whole team was gutted though. It's an entirely new team.
The people who claimed Kyrie was just as bad defensively were based purely on spreadsheets and not on a balanced evaluation utilizing all the information available. The playoff defense of each player was night and day yet ignored because regular season advanced stats said xyz.
Ainge was on Toucher and Rich this AM and he talked about how they scouted Theis. It was definitely not random, but may be turning out better than they hoped..
At various points during games to date, the Celtics have placed 4 of the 5 guys on the floor who are under 23:
Jaylen Brown: 21
Jason Tatum: 19
Terry Rozier: 23
Marcus Smart: 23
Granted, this is an unusual mix and we won't see it often, but 4 of 5 under 23, yikes. The future looks bright.
Except only 2 of the 5 are under 23. I get your point, but Terry and Marcus turn 24 in March. They aren't as young as you are making them. Most players are what they are at age 25 or so. Some players add a 3 point shot or w/e, but yeah.
Rozier probably has more room to grow than Smart because of playing time, and they both still have another year or two of growth, so they are young. But Under 23 is a much different thing than 23 1/2.
edit: Tatum doesn't turn 20 until March either. A lot of March birthdays on the Celtics this year. Hayward, Irving too.
I think Horford is really benefiting from having legitimate big men (as opposed to Amir just being the biggest man available) alongside him up front. Baynes reminds me a bit of peak Perkins, with a couple of offensive skills.
Horford is like KG in a lot of ways and benefits by not being the lone big in the frontcourt. KG was able to do a lot of his showing and switching knowing that Perk, Sheed and Shaq (in that brief awesome stretch) had the paint covered. It's why those poor Wolves had to play guys like Ervin Johnson, Blount, Olowokandi, and others with the starting unit when he was younger. Horford was badly hurt by playing next to Amir and Olynyk last season......I think it was wearing him down as he is playing with renewed energy this year.
This fits with the general size discussion. With Al playing 5 at times, or with less than physical partners the C were undersized, or playing that way at two spots. Seems like a given in the NBA, but it isn't the two headed monster Thies, Baynes can catch and dunk. Amir last was that type of guy in Toronto, and Kelly wan't even that type of a guy at Gonzaga. While the talk in the NBA is to go 4 small with a big 4, the Cs have success with two more traditional 5 men.
Baynes is definitely a traditional 5 (although mobile and quick enough to not get played off the floor on defense). Theis, however, is way closer to a big 4, and is exactly the type of player who does well in the modern NBA: very switchable, OKish rim protector, puts pressure on the D when rolling, sets good screens, and can even shoot a bit.
But he does the 5 stuff better than Amir or KO. He can finish around the rim, and block shots. He does not have the beef of Baynes, but with right match ups does the same job. Some credit has to go to Brad for getting him out there against the right guys.
In todays game with so much screening activity on the ball and away from the ball a players defense is only going to be as good as his teammates since it is typically a 2 or 3-man defensive unit engaged initially. If the first action doesn't present a FGA then the secondary offensive players become involved with their movements requiring the 4th and 5th defender to become involved in the switching. This is why one mans individual defensive stats can easily fool you into believing he is a good (or bad) defender.....it is so much more about team defense today and how the individual parts work an a unit.
The Celtics defense has looked great but they've played offenses that seem to struggle (and not just when the play the Cs). Opponent ranking by ppg (maybe not the best metric but it serves)
Cle - 17
Mil -18
Phi - 14
NYK - 23
Mia - 19
SAS - 27
Sac - 29
Over the next month they'll face the Warriors (1), Magic (2!), Nets (3!!) and Raptors (6) so by Dec we'll know more about the D
Cle - 17
Mil -18
Phi - 14
NYK - 23
Mia - 19
SAS - 27
Sac - 29
Over the next month they'll face the Warriors (1), Magic (2!), Nets (3!!) and Raptors (6) so by Dec we'll know more about the D
This early that's kind of circular though. You get shut down and those numbers are gonna be low. Each day it's a bit more meaningful though.
Yeah, the Clippers were #1 in the league......until they played the Warriors. Then they suddenly were #7. We are clearly in tiny small sample size but it DOES pass the eye test especially the way we close out on perimeter shooters.
edit: meant to quote jimv, posting on mobile sucks
did you take out the results of the c's game when ranking these? with only 8 games under their belt, a shut down night by the celtics could be the very reason they look pedestrian.
Don't forget that Celtics owner Steve Pagliuca is active with the Duke program and his son was Okafor's teammate the one year Jahlil was at Duke. If anyone has the inside scoop on Okafor it is Ainge similar to Belichick's Rutgers connection when his son was there with Harmon, McCourty, and several other guys that BB brought to New England.
Also note that Pags kid was also teammates with Ojeleye and Justice Winslow in addition to Tatum. That's a TON of information you have on prospects that no other team has available to them.
Thought on Jaylen Brown after he lit up the Kings...
Perspective matters a lot. Next to Tatum, Brown looks pedestrian. Next to Avery Bradley, another 20-year old who became a key contributor in year 2 (though was later slowed by injuries), he looks to be well ahead in terms of production and shooting. And as good as Bradley was he was limited by height, which won't apply to Brown whose physical characteristics make him far more versatile.
I have my doubts, still, about Brown's ceiling (and the likelihood of him achieving it), but at this point his floor (a significant concern among some when he was drafted) looks to be quite high.
Perspective matters a lot. Next to Tatum, Brown looks pedestrian. Next to Avery Bradley, another 20-year old who became a key contributor in year 2 (though was later slowed by injuries), he looks to be well ahead in terms of production and shooting. And as good as Bradley was he was limited by height, which won't apply to Brown whose physical characteristics make him far more versatile.
I have my doubts, still, about Brown's ceiling (and the likelihood of him achieving it), but at this point his floor (a significant concern among some when he was drafted) looks to be quite high.
I didn't - this wasn't intended to be any sort of in depth analysis, rather to point out the Cs have played against mediocre to poor offenses so far. In the next few weeks they'll get a few mediocre to good offenses and we'll have a better basis for evaluation.
One thing about AB - from what I recall, people knew that he was going to be a good NBA player because he was incredibly athletic (for his size) plus had an incredible work ethic.
Which brings me to JB. I know that guys who are super athletic wash out of the NBA all of the time but typically the scuttlebutt is that they don't have the work ethic. I have no idea how to find out this information but I'd be interested in knowing other examples of guys with plus athleticism and plus work ethic not making it in the NBA - other than injuries, of course.
It's hard to imagine a guy with JB's attributes not becoming a high level NBA player. Maybe not a superstar but a high level one nonetheless.
My recollection of early AB was that he was seen as a tweener -- too small to play off-guard, not a good enough shooter to be a 2, not a good enough handle/passer to be a 1. But his on-ball defense was awesome from Day one, especially manned up against point guards. He clearly put in the work to make his outside shot be a positive in his offensive game.
If JB's offensive game can develop the way AB's did, along with his height and length, I think we will all be plenty glad he is on this team.
If JB's offensive game can develop the way AB's did, along with his height and length, I think we will all be plenty glad he is on this team.
My earliest recollection of Bradley was at Texas when I literally said to my buddy next to me, "How does an undersized 2-guard who can't dribble, can't pass, and can't shoot get to be ranked #1 in his high school class ahead of John Wall?"
AB is a poster child for how work ethic can turn your physical skills into a productive NBA player.
AB is a poster child for how work ethic can turn your physical skills into a productive NBA player.
To take you down memory lane, this and this and this are some of the contemporaneous reports on AB. But to summarize: AB was widely considered the best defensive guard in the class and while he was undersized and had problems with his dribble, he certainly could shoot. (At Texas, he hit 43.1% of his half-court jumpers, which was best in his draft year.) Not sure about how well he finished in high school but it was certainly a problem playing against bigger defenders at Texas and then in the NBA for his first few years.
The more I think about it the more similarities I see between AB and JB. Hopefully they end up with the same trajectory.
To be fair this was a one-game watch of Bradley early in the season who was shooting his FT's in the 40% at the time and had just missed both of his FT's. I was living in Raleigh where Wall highlights and hype were through the roof as he announced he was going to UK. There wasn't anyone in that area who believed there was a better player in the country than Wall.
Damn, I didn't remember AB being *that* explosive. Some of those highlights are inching into Dennis Smith territory.
Really interesting point, because you hit on a key difference between the 2 players: AB was a tweener, JB is the opposite of a tweener (someone who, as he develops, will be able to credibly play 3 positions and defend 4). The places where AB (as a veteran) had a notable skill advantage - shooting and on-ball defense - are both areas where JB has the raw tools and may improve with experience.
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