From what I've seen of Luka, Joe Johnson with better vision (and hopefully better D) is the best comp I've heard. I think he's pretty close to Iso Joe in terms of style, size, strength and athleticism, but better in some important ways- primarily in terms of play-making and team defense.
How would anyone know who Ainge would be targeting? I don't doubt at all that we are probing for a steal of a deal......with our assets Ainge would only be doing his job in doing so. I may cry if we ever gave up similar to the rumored Winslow deal for Doncic.
Harden has elite elite quickness and explosiveness while being a lights out shooter.....Doncic is the polar opposite of this type of player. The only similarities I see between Harden and Doncic is that they are lefthanded, have tremendous vision, and play similar styles of defense.
This is what I never understood about the hype machine over the past year or two......Doncic has always projected poorly on explosiveness, quickness, and length which are really important when you don't shoot like Steph Curry. These deficiencies, along with his continued struggles shooting the ball don't even take into account his defensive issues. Shooting 3's against non-NBA length, quickness, and speed of the game at 31% is a major red flag for an already physically developed player who now needs to get his shot off over superior athletes playing at a much faster/quicker pace than he's accustomed.
I agree with this, with Colangelo out, a three team deal where Rozier went to Philly, #10, Sacramento 2019, Memphis #1 to Memphis, and #4 to Boston is the sort of deal I could see. The Grizz could still add someone like a Mikal or Miles Bridges to help them win now, while giving them a future lottery pick and their own future pick back to make trades easier.
Makes sense. I've actually heard a fair number of Harden/Manu comparisons, so I guess cross-racial comps are permitted between southpaws.
Yeah, vertical leap in particular has always struck me as possibly the single most overvalued trait in hoops. How does the truism go? "99% of what makes an effective player happens on the floor"? Can't remember if it's 99% or 90% or whatever, but I've always agreed in spirit. I feel like Jordan and LeBron throw off the curve by being elite players who could also jump out of the gym, but I suspect they'd still have been elite without the crazy verticals. Meanwhile: Bird, McHale, Magic, Stockton, Duncan, Durant, Nash, Manu, Harden, Curry ... at a certain point you wonder how anyone can look at NBA history and think that not being an Olympic high-jumper is a limiting factor to NBA greatness.
Beyond this there's just the "How do they play the game?" thing. There are two 6'3" guys that I always like to use as examples, Jodie Meeks and Monta Ellis. When tested out athletically Meeks had a max vertical of something like 38", elite time in the lane agility test and similarly in 3/4 sprint. By contrast Ellis' max vertical was something like 31" and he had lane agility times that were slow ... for a center.
I realize that I'm in the minority, but I still like next year's pool. But really only at the top, and it's decidedly a good pool if you're looking for a perimeter player, where Boston might just be full up at the moment.
kind of Meh, is way to kind for the view of next years draft at this point, Maybe some guys will break out big, but unless they change the draft rules, it looks like the worst draft in quite a while.
There is so much more to athletic testing than vertical, which may be the most meaningless of all of the tests. Brent Barry and Pat Connaughton had some of the best verticals we've ever seen.....but as you say, they rarely utilize that skill in their games. I like to see the agility numbers on guys who are "perceived" to be slow-footed like a Ron Baker a couple years ago who showed in the drills that what we saw at Wichita St could have been an illusion. But yeah, vertical is meaningless imo.
Did I miss the multitude of posts of people who want to do this? Many are discussing but most do not actually want to do it.
Most of these proposals are both undervaluing Jaylen (have Celtics fans ever done this to one of theirs before?) and failing to recognize the value that Jaylen's contract, and length of contract, has on Ainge delaying the clock on our repeater tax.
Which parts do you disagree with? His explosiveness, quickness, defense, or 31% 3-point shooting against Eurodefenders? Kukoc is a pretty fair bar for him to max out at imo.
Last year this time, Jaylen's ceiling was a lesser version of Jae Crowder. And, the year before that, he was the 3rd pick in a two-man draft. So at least fans are undervaluing him less now.
I have a very hard time believing this because:
This post made me go back and quickly read a few pages and
Two posters, Bakahump and BigSoxFan mentioned trading Jaylen for a draft pick. BigSoxFan said he wasn't sure if he would do it, while Bakahump's post seemed very much in favor of trading Jaylen AND more stuff
Jaylen's ceiling has always been far better than Crowder's reality. Whether or not he'd reach that was more in doubt last year, and has certainly been erased now.
This is what BigSoxFan said:
That's not the post I was referring to. I was referring to this one
I mean, that’s a far cry from saying that I want to trade Jaylen. The simple reality is that if Ainge wants to get into the top 3-5 in the 2018 draft, Jaylen is the guy who’s going. I was purely responding to this hypothetical. Discussing something doesn’t equal supporting it.
Criticism, when warranted, is healthy for the board.
I didn't say you wanted to, I said you mentioned it as a possibility. If it were discussed, I thought I could respond.
I'm not sure what two articles are supposed to tell us. For example, the first one is definitely someone's opinion - I'll give you that. But the idea that last year was one of the strongest draft classes this millennium was certainly not consensus.
I'm not sure how that makes me feel, with respect to our potential draft pick next year. I think Bagely's ceiling is probably lower than most prospects at the top of the draft, but he may be positioned to provide immediate help to a team. Probably doesn't matter. They're getting someone pretty good no matter what - at least it wouldn't be Ayton or Doncic (unless they say "screw what the players want").
Well the idea being pushed back against was a poster saying people WANTED to trade Jaylen, not people MENTIONED trading Jaylen.
I think we can comfortably say that Sacramento will again be a garbage team next year no matter who they get so not really worried. I’ll be more worried about the pick landing #1 than them being a late lotto team.
Robb lost me when he said Bagley could go anywhere from 2 to 10. I swear that most of the crap we have been reading is nothing more than clickbait with zero evidence of it being any more than fake news.
For sure. None of these guys is going to move the needle significantly for Sacramento this season. They're going to suck.
Alternatively, a simultaneous set of trades where Brown gets traded straight up for Doncic on draft night and Irving plus picks get traded for Kawhi also makes a lot of sense from a roster construction standpoint.
I agree, with the caveat that there needs to be a baseline level of functional athleticism and skill, but even those can come in different forms. I think Luka has enough of both that he'll figure out how to have an impact in the NBA, just as he's figured out how to be historically productive in the ACB, but I do think HRB's warnings are worth considering.
Sure, man. I look at this way, if you are discussing trading Jaylen for a pick and you are thinking of doing it - you would be ok with it. Hypothetically, if Ainge was to make a call for a top pick and asked if Jaylen (which it would I'm sure) would be someone they'd be interested in return, then the intent is there to complete a deal.
Before this season, Doncic shot 91/253 attempts in the Euros for a 35.9 3P% over his career. Sure, that's not elite by any means, but Jayson Tatum was ~34% at Duke? The lower shooting numbers this year could just reflect growing pains with Luka becoming a primary scoring option as a 19 year old. Part of the knock on Doncic that I've heard from some scouts is that his shot selection is a little iffy - he'll often settle for contested step back 3s, etc. Given that there aren't any concerns over his shooting mechanics and that he's been a 80% FT shooter since he was literally a 16 year old, this seems like an overreaction for a kid with the 3rd highest usage rate in Europe.
I've watched tons of Doncic the past two years. You are correct that his shooting mechanics are very good......the issue he had this year was not really shot selection but an inability to create separation to get off a high quality shot which naturally affected his percentage. Of course, the fact that he struggled in this area against non-NBA defenders was one I stressed earlier and one that will be magnified going up against longer and more athletic defenders.
Edit (accidentally clicked “post” before replying)
Whoa!! I have no idea why I included lefty I think I had Kukoc on my mind. Are you aware of Jaylen's background or the circumstances he faced at Cal with 3 defenders shadowing him at all times? TJ McConnell is a basketball savant too.....his ceiling isn't high due to deficiencies in areas for him to grow into. It is the same with Doncic…...he doesn't have explosiveness to grow his game into and struggles with separation. I thought he was a pretty similar player two years ago as he was last year for many of these reasons...….and it wasn't against NBA athletes.
