The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I just re-watched the Altuve walk-off from this year and didn't hear any trash can pounding or tune whistling before the sliders from Chapman. But it's worth noting that a TON of fans were whistling in that AB. Strange. Like, much more than I expected.
 

joe dokes

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Cora continuing the sign stealing process in ‘18 but stopping after the memo in ‘19 then calls into question everything the 2018 team accomplished, which would suck. We already have to deal with the rest of the country putting asterisks on half our Super Bowl titles.
That's my favorite part.
 

jon abbey

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Now there is a lot of talk that the Astros also used buzzing bandages, fake bandages worn by the hitter which would buzz once or twice depending on the upcoming pitch.

" In recent days I have had scouts and executives talk to me about a variety of methods they think have been or could be employed, such as a realistic-looking electronic bandage placed on a player’s body that buzzes in real time to signal what is coming — one buzz for a fastball, for example — if the surveillance determines what type of pitching is coming. One person I spoke to has ties to the Astros and said he already had spoken to MLB’s investigators."

https://nypost.com/2019/11/18/why-rob-manfred-must-make-a-harsh-example-of-illegal-sign-stealers/
 

jon abbey

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Well, keep in mind that he very publicly accused the Astros of cheating (in terms of some pine tar like substance giving them extra grip for better rotation on their pitches) a couple of years ago, so he is definitely eating this up.
 

sean1562

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and considering they trounced him and his team in the subsequent ALDS, i would be pretty upset too. Also has that long standing feud with Cole
 

Wingack

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I just re-watched the Altuve walk-off from this year and didn't hear any trash can pounding or tune whistling before the sliders from Chapman. But it's worth noting that a TON of fans were whistling in that AB. Strange. Like, much more than I expected.
Yeah, at certain times in the game, like that one, stadiums get very loud. I can't imagine they would be able to hear a garbage can being banged on. But a buzzer would definitely help out the batter.
 

Plympton91

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This is another one of those times where I want the punishment to be extra tough because it sucks in people who don’t want to cheat through peer pressure and survival. You can’t be a new Astros’ call up and say, “Thats unethical, I don’t want you to tell me the pitch,” without risking your future in the organization. It like steroids, where if a critical mass is being unethical, you’re crowding out people who don’t cheat, but without the brain cancer side effects. Still, this is way deeper than a pitcher deciding on his own to put a nail file in his pocket, or a batter corking a bat, and should be dealt with by an order of magnitude greater consequence than those would be.
 

BaseballJones

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If this story is true, it involved a whole lot of people, from management to coaches to players. Way worse than any other cheating scandal we've ever encountered (yes way worse than Spygate, even worse than the Black Sox because that was just players, if I have the story right, not management or ownership).
 

jon abbey

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This is another one of those times where I want the punishment to be extra tough because it sucks in people who don’t want to cheat through peer pressure and survival. You can’t be a new Astros’ call up and say, “Thats unethical, I don’t want you to tell me the pitch,” without risking your future in the organization. It like steroids, where if a critical mass is being unethical, you’re crowding out people who don’t cheat, but without the brain cancer side effects. Still, this is way deeper than a pitcher deciding on his own to put a nail file in his pocket, or a batter corking a bat, and should be dealt with by an order of magnitude greater consequence than those would be.
Also steroids was more about individual results, this seems to have impacted the postseason results for the last three seasons to some extent at least. Agreed that it seems like the biggest scandal in baseball history, in part because of how successful it seems to have been.
 

sean1562

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Yea I feel like Luhnow has to be suspended at least? I would be surprised if they brought the hammer down on any players though
 

Soxy

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Yea I feel like Luhnow has to be suspended at least? I would be surprised if they brought the hammer down on any players though
No, I can't see them doing anything to the players. This absolutely has to be an organizational punishment. It's not like this was a couple of rogue actors. This was, as far as we know, at least somewhat codified as an organizational practice (the leaked email).

The absolute nuclear option would be a one year post-season ban, yes? Do we think MLB would do such a thing? We've seen it before, almost on a regular basis, with college sports and European soccer. So, it wouldn't be wholly unprecedented.

I'm just trying to think of the harshest organizational punishment possible. Which, whatever that is, should probably be on the table.
 

EvilEmpire

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If there was sophisticated cheating at the organizational level, and assuming this is all limited to the Astros, I think they will lose multiple draft picks, some international money and Luhnow gets banned from baseball. Also a big fine and maybe a suspension for ownership too, like Steinbrenner, back when.
 

InsideTheParker

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But how would a post-season ban work? How would it affect their games against others late in the season. That seems like a non-starter. They have to take away draft picks, assess fines, insist on firings.( Was slowly typing on phone while EE said it better.)
 

ehaz

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Could MLB implement some sort of a free agency ban? Akin to "transfer bans" in European football? Taking a first round pick or two away and canning the manager is not as big a deal in baseball as it is in other sports.
 

Harry Hooper

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Waiting for Scott Boras to say, "Free agency should be granted immediately to 20 players on the roster."
 

Wingack

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Luhnow may be the mastermind, but is Hinch really going to escape without penalty? At very least he's been a co-conspirator. I think he's in trouble too.
I think Hinch should be suspended for the year. And I like the idea of banning them from the playoffs for 2020.

How about applying an asterik to their 2017 WS win. I mean it ultimately doesn't mean anything, but it will sting.
 

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I think Hinch should be suspended for the year. And I like the idea of banning them from the playoffs for 2020.

How about applying an asterik to their 2017 WS win. I mean it ultimately doesn't mean anything, but it will sting.
Take away all their draft picks and international money this year. Suspend Hinch for the year and kick Luhnow out of baseball.
 

Wingack

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Take away all their draft picks and international money this year. Suspend Hinch for the year and kick Luhnow out of baseball.
Yes. I think it needs to be at least this. Hurt them now. Hurt them for the future.

And like I said, if it can be proven that they were doing the illegal behavior during the 2017 playoffs, throw an asterisk on their world championship. You can't take it away, but the asterisk will put it in question for ever.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Yes. I think it needs to be at least this. Hurt them now. Hurt them for the future.

And like I said, if it can be proven that they were doing the illegal behavior during the 2017 playoffs, throw an asterisk on their world championship. You can't take it away, but the asterisk will put it in question for ever.
And if it can be proven that they were doing it during the 2018 playoffs, an asterisk of awesome should be put on the Sox sweeping them in Houston in the ALCS!
 
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amRadio

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Didn't Yankees fans also want the Sox to forfeit the division to MFY over the Apple watch thing? This all just seems so extreme. Sure, they cheated and deserve penalty, but is sign stealing really worth an asterisk? A year long suspension for Hinch? Other teams have used technology to steal signs and been punished for it. That seems way above and beyond the punishment handed down to other teams over the years. Maybe I'm under estimating this whole scheme but I don't see how this is materially different from the same infraction the Sox were found guilty of earlier the same year.
 
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jon abbey

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sean1562

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if the astros get a postseason ban for next year, why wouldn't they immediately trade everyone? if your fanbase knows you are not eligible to compete for a year, imagine the kind of prospect talent you could get back for the players on that team.
 

jon abbey

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Anything else?

Let’s not forget that time when a telescope helped the Giants win the pennant*, the Giants win the pennant*, the Giants win the pennant*!
Good point, but even that was one way of illegally stealing and conveying signs for part of a season, this is looking increasingly like it was multiple ways for multiple seasons.
 

brs3

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I'm not sure if speculating on punishment is ideal for the thread, but as this thing grows legs, it is really interesting to see what kind of punishment will occur to deter other teams from doing it. I think any punishment needs to be sustained for a couple of years. Maybe no draft picks in the first 10 rounds for 2-5 years, no international signings for the same period, and whomever is the leader of this is banned from baseball. Is that just Luhnow? Either way, the penalty needs to be sufficient enough to deter others. They created a cheat code for real life baseball.
 

Hoya81

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Assigning any sort of asterisk for the ‘17 WS seems farfetched. After that, the door is open for applying the same logic for teams that had admitted spitballers/scuffers (Whitey Ford and Drysdale come to mind) or PED violaters.
 

E5 Yaz

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As JA notes above ... this isn't just the Astros. They just got caught first because a) they were particularly dumb about it, and 2) teams were out to get them.

If I were a fan of any team, particularly successful ones, I wouldn't be gloating over this or proposing punishments you wouldn't want to see your team hit with
 

jon abbey

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I don't know any more than you guys but from their reputations as leaders and their roles on that team and what we know so far, Cora and Beltran were very likely the two main people doing this on the 2017 HOU team. Cora we know has been the BOS manager the two years since, Beltran I think took off 2018 and then was a 'special adviser' to Cashman from Dec 2018 until just being hired by the Mets (heh Mets).

In light of what we have recently learned, this Cora interview in London this summer after one of the losses to NY is worth listening to again.

View: https://twitter.com/BAT1STA/status/1196228571485933570


I don't know if you could go back to those two games and get any correlation, but he really seems to either be talking about Beltran teaching NY to pull shit for the 2019 edition or Beltran showing NY how to stop Cora's shit. I kind of think it's the latter, but I am also biased. :)

Edit: Actually I listened again and now I think it's the first, that odd 'devices' mention.
 

jon abbey

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Nothing could be more Mets-like than to go through the managerial process as professionally as they seemed to, casting the net far and wide and taking their time narrowing down the choices, maybe they shouldn't have passed on Girardi but he is not for everyone, and after at least three rounds of interviews for the finalists, going with the universally respected Carlos Beltran on Nov. 1. Then Nov. 11, this story breaks.

Also making it extra Mets-ian is that if they had chosen anyone else, Beltran would still be a special adviser to Cashman and still the Yankees' problem. Thanks Mets!!
 

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I don't know any more than you guys but from their reputations and their roles on that team and what we know so far, Cora and Beltran were very likely the two main people doing this on the 2017 HOU team. Cora we know has been the BOS manager the two years since, Beltran I think took off 2018 and then was a 'special adviser' to Cashman from Dec 2018 until just being hired by the Mets (heh Mets).

In light of what we have recently learned, this Cora interview in London this summer after one of the losses to NY is worth listening to again.

View: https://twitter.com/BAT1STA/status/1196228571485933570


I don't know if you could go back to those two games and get any correlation, but he really seems to either be talking about Beltran teaching NY to pull shit for the 2019 edition or Beltran showing NY how to stop Cora's shit. I kind of think it's the latter, but I am also biased. :)

Edit: Actually I listened again and now I think it's the first, that odd 'devices' mention.
Yea. Cora looks bad there. Damn.
 

jon abbey

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It's also worth noting that Beltran was one of the finalists for the NY manager job after 2017, but Cashman went with Boone.
 

teddywingman

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I don't know any more than you guys but from their reputations as leaders and their roles on that team and what we know so far, Cora and Beltran were very likely the two main people doing this on the 2017 HOU team. Cora we know has been the BOS manager the two years since, Beltran I think took off 2018 and then was a 'special adviser' to Cashman from Dec 2018 until just being hired by the Mets (heh Mets).

In light of what we have recently learned, this Cora interview in London this summer after one of the losses to NY is worth listening to again.

View: https://twitter.com/BAT1STA/status/1196228571485933570


I don't know if you could go back to those two games and get any correlation, but he really seems to either be talking about Beltran teaching NY to pull shit for the 2019 edition or Beltran showing NY how to stop Cora's shit. I kind of think it's the latter, but I am also biased. :)

Edit: Actually I listened again and now I think it's the first, that odd 'devices' mention.
That is fascinating. He is clearly talking about nefarious efforts.
 

loshjott

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Yea. Cora looks bad there. Damn.
Yes, but this was the London series. Did the Yankees arrive a few days early and rig up an Astros-like apparatus in London with a hidden CF camera? Buzzers and banging garbage can lids don't work unless someone can see the signs and communicate immediately to the dugout. If teams can do this on the road then what?
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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The two modern comparisons that we can make as far as assessing punishment are Spygate and Bountygate in the NFL.

For spygate we saw the loss of the first round pick and the fine, but no coaching or player suspensions. With Bountygate we saw the loss of two second round picks (the Saints had already traded their first rounder), fine, suspensions of Payton for a year, Williams for a year, GM Mickey Loomis for 8 games and Assistant Head Coach Joe Vitt for 6 games. I don't think they will in any way consider a postseason ban because of the impact that would make on the leagues bottom line as much or more than punishing the teams.

It's hard to find an equivalent of losing an NFL first round pick to baseball. It certainly would have to be multiple picks, international signing money or slot money or a combination of all of them to be equivalent. The precedent of coaches and GMs seems pretty easy to carry out. Assistants is a lot more tricky in this situation given they're no longer on the same team.

There's a number of mentions of Asterisks, but that just seems stupid. These are never really imposed by the league anyway. It's not like MLB puts Asterisks on McGwire or Boggs HRs. It's more of a fan and media creation.
 

Van Everyman

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The two modern comparisons that we can make as far as assessing punishment are Spygate and Bountygate in the NFL.
Putting aside the fact that this is about stealing other teams’ communications to get a competitive advantage, there are actually a lot of parallels with Spygate here:
  • Team at center of scandal one of the top teams for many years running
  • Evidence that there is a culture of misbehavior in the sport that goes beyond one team and one year
  • Questions as to whether the violation won the team a title
  • Coaches/players on team in question tattling when they leave
  • Lifer commissioners who have spent multiple years in the league (ie, are not outsiders)
I think the key for Manfred is not only deterring other teams but also doing it in a way where he doesn’t set a bad precedent going forward. His people need to study what Goodell has done and where it’s led them and ask what they really want the outcome to be here.

Is it to clean up the sport (ie, do they think this stuff is serious)?

Is it for the problem to go away (do they think it’s more bad PR than anything)?

Is it to establish the league office/commissioner as a modern day Kennesaw Mountain Landis/“guardians of the game”?

These are all really important questions – particularly as they head into what sound like potentially contentious CBA negotiations.

I’m not sure what the answers are but the main thing they should probably realize is that whatever they do, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people regardless.
 

amRadio

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Not intending to derail but I don't see the similarities with Spygate that you do. The Astros have won much more recently compared to the Pats in '07 and the infraction in question took place during the season in which they won. I don't think many level headed fans across the country actually bought Spygate as the reason the Patriots were winning Superbowls some 3-4 years prior. It seemed to be a lot of Rams and Raiders fans kicking dirt in a sore loser kinda way (analog to the Yankee fan role from this scandal, I guess?). Spygate happened in 2007 and most people weren't desperate to make that connection. I also don't remember players tattletaling on their way out like Mike Fiers did here.

This seems to be like if the worst fears of the Matt Walsh believers were correct. This is using technology during games to get inside your opponents game plan and have a huge advantage to win a crucial situation. I'm coming around to the idea that if this is spreading across the game, maybe Manfred needs to ride into town with someones head on a spike.