The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

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Koko the Monkey
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Cora continuing the sign stealing process in ‘18 but stopping after the memo in ‘19 then calls into question everything the 2018 team accomplished, which would suck. We already have to deal with the rest of the country putting asterisks on half our Super Bowl titles.
After all of the BS from the sports media and and other fans over the past couple decades how can you possibly care what they think about anything related to Boston teams? They’re just bad faith actors across the board. Let them rant, it’s just born of pure jealousy.
 

Green Monster

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It sounds like the catcher was the guy wearing the earpiece, not the bullpen coach. Not that it excuses anyone in this matter.
True... Nothing preventing anyone from wearing the earpiece. In fact, I would think that a bullpen catcher would have difficulty signaling the batter when he was actually warming up a pitcher. Therefore, the bullpen coach might actually be a better option.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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It's not just you. Sign stealing and pitch tipping was just gamesmanship back when you had to actually notice something on your own. Now, you can use machine learning to highlight what to look for as easy as pie.

All you need is a little machine learning magic, which is way, way easier in the last few years. Super accessible. All you'd need is to separate clips of as many pitches from the same angle as possible and someone to tell the machine it was x, y, or z pitch. Eventually, it will pick out any glaring differences for you.

You could also use it to predict pitch selection patterns. Kind of like this rock paper scissors app, which is like a "my first ml algorithm" project. All you'd need there is a fairly basic app and a guy with a tablet entering the last pitch thrown throughout the game. The algorithm wouldn't guarantee prediction, but it'd give you an advantage.

This is a whole new era.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlRbfSavbI
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Whats the chances Manfred suspends Hinch Cora and Beltran for the entire season?
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, I agree there will almost certainly be substantial punishments, but I don’t think any suspensions will be season long and I think penalties will be aimed more at the team/s than at individuals. HOU is going to lose draft picks for starters.
 

Big John

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I think sign stealing, electronic or otherwise, ought to be completely legal. The practice goes back to the 1880's. If you don't want them stolen,. find a better way to hide your signs.
And if all teams are free to do it, it's a level playing field. May the smartest team win.
 

lexrageorge

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I mean this is pretty deep. I definitely think Hinch gets a long vacation if nothing else. The hammer is coming down on Houston hard
A lot will depend upon what Hinch and the others may have said when MLB started investigating the complaints. Attempts at cover up will result in lengthy suspensions. And I do believe any actions found to have taken place in 2019 will be handled more harshly than anything that took place beforehand.
 

Plympton91

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I think sign stealing, electronic or otherwise, ought to be completely legal. The practice goes back to the 1880's. If you don't want them stolen,. find a better way to hide your signs.
And if all teams are free to do it, it's a level playing field. May the smartest team win.
So if there needs to be 4 sets of signs given on every pitch, slowing the game to a crawl between pitches, you’re good with that?

If the league doesn’t stop the use of electronics for stealing signs in Real time, then I’m all in favor of ending sanctions for hitting batters anywhere except the head. If I’m on the mound and hear a drum go off, then on the next pitch. I’m calling a curveball and throwing a fastball right at the batters’ hands or kneecap.
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

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Yes, somewhere around mid-season, after the Red Sox were firmly ensconced outside the playoffs looking in, and Johnson, Thornburg, Velazquez were replaced by Taylor, Hernandez, Walden, the bullpen became a relative strength.
Actually, that’s conceding too much. The Red So has one reliever with an ERA under 3. And only 2 with ERAs below 3.75. They had, as I said all last winter, excellent depth for the 10th, 11th, and 12th spots on the roster—evidenced by the 4 or 5 guys who had ERAs in the high 3.00s and low 4.00s, but a complete lack of relief ace talent. Workman stepped up. Barnes and Brasier crashed and burned. The bullpen was a problem, not a strength.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2019.shtml
Please explain how Barnes "crashed and burned". He put up a 128 ERA+ and 15.4 k/9, and was effective apart from two brutal weeks in June. He did that despite spending the majority of the year facing exclusively the opposition's best hitters, no matter the inning (6th-9th) or situation (clean or dirty inning). You can't make a comparison between him and other relievers because no pitcher on any other team had that specific role. We have no idea how, say, Chapman, Yates, or any other reliever would have performed. Barnes' 2019 numbers have to be looked at in that context.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Thinking back to the 2018 postseason, I remember seeing somewhere that Cora was asked about what changed for Red Sox pitching in 2018 versus 2017.

I can't remember his exact quote, but he said something to the effect of the Astros knew what to expect from certain pitchers (definitely Sale, maybe Pomeranz?) in certain situations - and in 2018, adjustments were made.

At the time, it seemed simple as "the Astros had good scouting on the Red Sox" - but in this new context, it's a bit more intriguing.

I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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Claiming your opponent stole signs in their ballpark goes back a long way. I'm pretty certain it predates the gyroball.

The Cardinals threw some shade the Red Sox’s way back in ’04:

Aside from yielding eight hits, St. Louis pitchers issued another six walks. That's 14 in two games, along with three plunked batters.

"It's not a healthy position. It's not our style of pitching," said Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan, who seemed to get more frustrated the more he talked about it. "We'll see how patient they are when we get to St. Louis. I'll be impressed if they're that patient when we get to St. Louis."
 

Awesome Fossum

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I think sign stealing, electronic or otherwise, ought to be completely legal. The practice goes back to the 1880's. If you don't want them stolen,. find a better way to hide your signs.
And if all teams are free to do it, it's a level playing field. May the smartest team win.
I see two big issues: 1) pace of play and 2) if the home teams are able to implement technology/systems in their ballpark, then it's not a level playing field, at least within a single game.

I'm all for trying ear pieces in the Atlantic League.
 

Harry Hooper

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I see two big issues: 1) pace of play and 2) if the home teams are able to implement technology/systems in their ballpark, then it's not a level playing field, at least within a single game.

I'm all for trying ear pieces in the Atlantic League.
Have the ear pieces send a tone signal = you have 8 (?) seconds to deliver a pitch
 

chawson

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It would be pretty funny if the Brewers were roped into this cheating scandal — and Yelich’s over-the-top tweet last night doesn’t help their case — and it ultimately explained Travis Shaw’s breakout.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Thinking back to the 2018 postseason, I remember seeing somewhere that Cora was asked about what changed for Red Sox pitching in 2018 versus 2017.

I can't remember his exact quote, but he said something to the effect of the Astros knew what to expect from certain pitchers (definitely Sale, maybe Pomeranz?) in certain situations - and in 2018, adjustments were made.

At the time, it seemed simple as "the Astros had good scouting on the Red Sox" - but in this new context, it's a bit more intriguing.

I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
IIRC he said that while on the Astros, they completely laid off anything outside and only swung at pitches on the inner half to beat him.
 

sean1562

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It would be pretty funny if the Brewers were roped into this cheating scandal — and Yelich’s over-the-top tweet last night doesn’t help their case — and it ultimately explained Travis Shaw’s breakout.
yea he comes across as a jerk, but I love Josh Donaldson's reply:

View: https://twitter.com/BringerOfRain20/status/1195473303118503938


Also, Darvish dominated the Brewers in the two starts he had against them last year, 0.90 ERA, 15 ks in 10 innings. But the 1 ER he gave up was off a Yelich HR. So maybe he should share some of his wisdom with his teammates?

edit: IDK how much you follow twitter but Darvish comes across as a really likable guy. His account is pretty funny

View: https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1195470509607149569


View: https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1195709224648663044
 
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EvilEmpire

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Why do we need earpieces?
The catcher talking to the pitcher with earpiece comms would kill the need for physical signs. It might also speed shit up. Honestly, I'd love to see it tested.

They still might need to have some verbal codes or shorthand to make it harder for the batter to listen in, but that wouldn't be hard.
 

jon abbey

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More still coming out from The Athletic:

"An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team’s desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team’s scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.

“One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”

The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed."

https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/
 

bosockboy

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More still coming out from The Athletic:

"An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team’s desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team’s scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.

“One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”

The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed."

https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/
Smoking gun.
 

jon abbey

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‘15 Astros: 11.5% SwStr (29th in MLB)
‘16 Astros: 11.5% SwStr (29th in MLB)
‘17 Astros: 8.5% SwStr (1st in MLB)
‘18 Astros: 8.9% SwStr (2nd in MLB)
‘19 Astros: 8.6% SwStr (1st in MLB)
 

Awesome Fossum

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The catcher talking to the pitcher with earpiece comms would kill the need for physical signs. It might also speed shit up. Honestly, I'd love to see it tested.

They still might need to have some verbal codes or shorthand to make it harder for the batter to listen in, but that wouldn't be hard.
Or the pitching coach can be calling the pitch. Or maybe even the pitcher is talking to the catcher. But regardless, it's worth seeing what it looks like.
 

jon abbey

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Jeff Passan has the name of the person who sent the e-mail in the latest Athletic report, Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to GM Luhnow.

"A high-ranking Houston Astros official asked scouts to spy on opponents' dugouts leading up to the 2017 postseason, hoping to steal signs and suggesting the potential use of cameras to do so, sources familiar with the request told ESPN.

The reaction among those who received an email from Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, was mixed, sources told ESPN. Some were intrigued by the idea, sources who received the email said, while others were bothered with the thoughts of pointing cameras toward opposing teams' dugouts, a plan that could have earned them scorn without the scouting community if caught.

The email, which was first reported by The Athletic and confirmed by recipients to ESPN, is the first indication of Astros front-office involvement in potential cheating and further reveals the scope of Houston's attempts to gain advantages through intercepted signs. Major League Baseball is investigating the organization's methods of sign-stealing after pitcher Mike Fiers told The Athletic that during its World Series-winning 2017 season the team used a live video feed to steal catchers' signs and transmit them to hitters by banging on a trash can."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28098216/astros-exec-suggested-using-cameras-spy-17-sources-say
 

DieHardSoxFan1

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Jeff Passan has the name of the person who sent the e-mail in the latest Athletic report, Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to GM Luhnow.

"A high-ranking Houston Astros official asked scouts to spy on opponents' dugouts leading up to the 2017 postseason, hoping to steal signs and suggesting the potential use of cameras to do so, sources familiar with the request told ESPN.

The reaction among those who received an email from Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, was mixed, sources told ESPN. Some were intrigued by the idea, sources who received the email said, while others were bothered with the thoughts of pointing cameras toward opposing teams' dugouts, a plan that could have earned them scorn without the scouting community if caught.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28098216/astros-exec-suggested-using-cameras-spy-17-sources-say


On-field personnel that has drawn the interest of the league includes Red Sox manager and former Astros bench coach Alex Cora, New York Mets manager and former Astros designated hitter Carlos Beltran, Astros manager AJ Hinch and Red Sox bullpen coach Craig Bjornson, who had the same job with Houston in 2017.
One of these names is not like the others.
 

kenneycb

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‘15 Astros: 11.5% SwStr (29th in MLB)
‘16 Astros: 11.5% SwStr (29th in MLB)
‘17 Astros: 8.5% SwStr (1st in MLB)
‘18 Astros: 8.9% SwStr (2nd in MLB)
‘19 Astros: 8.6% SwStr (1st in MLB)
What are the home/road splits? Those numbers aren’t too meaningful in the aggregate since the Astros presumably didn’t have these systems in place on the road.
 

Awesome Fossum

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Well, we don't really know the scope of their systems. There's chatter that they were doing at least something on the road as well:

This wasn't a case of a personal trainer slipping steroids to a player with a hotel-room injection. This was a matter of 15 to 50 members of the Houston traveling party expected to maintain a secrecy that could never possibly hold, as players and staffers moved on to other teams. Throughout 2018, there were stories of the strange noises emanating the Houston side of the field, about chipped paint left on walls after the Astros played on the road -- from some blunt-force trauma, rival staffers speculated last year.
http://insider.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/28095708/commissioner-rob-manfred-faces-test-cracking-cheating-mlb-teams
 

JimD

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Jeff Passan has the name of the person who sent the e-mail in the latest Athletic report, Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to GM Luhnow.
There's no way Luhnow was unaware of this system. Now we see if Manfred has the backbone to suspend him as well as punish the Astros severely.
 

Comeback Kid

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Sucks to hear Kevin Goldstein is involved. Was a big fan of his podcast with Jason Parks when they were both with Baseball Prospectus back in the day.

It will be interesting to see how this story continues to unfold.
 

DJnVa

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What are the home/road splits? Those numbers aren’t too meaningful in the aggregate since the Astros presumably didn’t have these systems in place on the road.
Well, they show *something* changed, even if possibly just in just 81 of the 162 games.
 

kenneycb

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And there could be multiple reasons for that. New hitting coach. Philosophy changes. Cheating. It would be more compelling if the home/road splits were meaningfully different as it’s much easier to cheat while using technology at home than on the road. But if the rate stars dropped across the board, it’s a much less compelling data point IMO.
 

OCD SS

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Sucks to hear Kevin Goldstein is involved. Was a big fan of his podcast with Jason Parks when they were both with Baseball Prospectus back in the day.
I was wondering where he came down on this (and hoping he wasn’t on the side of cheating) for the same reason; since he always seemed to be on the side of the scouts, I thought it was curious he was with the Astros based on them gutting their scouting department.

I don't think their home/ road splits are going to tell the whole story; the Fangraphs podcasts have pointed out that the sign-stealing apparently didn't work based on those splits, but that assumes that this was the only scheme they had (lest we forget the machine learning AI on the assitant to the GM's phone in the scouting section).
 

Yelling At Clouds

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It would be sort of crazy if after all this talk about launch angle and the juiced ball, it was just rampant sign-stealing that led to all these crazy breakouts from the last couple of years.
 

dcmissle

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So if there needs to be 4 sets of signs given on every pitch, slowing the game to a crawl between pitches, you’re good with that?

If the league doesn’t stop the use of electronics for stealing signs in Real time, then I’m all in favor of ending sanctions for hitting batters anywhere except the head. If I’m on the mound and hear a drum go off, then on the next pitch. I’m calling a curveball and throwing a fastball right at the batters’ hands or kneecap.
The Nats doing what they believed had to be done to cope with the Astros’ bs was over-the-top depressing.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Hell, you can beat it just doing like Doyle Alexander used to do. Apparently a lot of the time he had the catcher put down a sign and he'd make a slight motion with a glove or a nod up or down from that to call the pitch. For example, the catcher puts down two fingers. Alexander moves his glove down. That means lower than 2 or 1 so he wants to throw a fastball.

To beat this, you'd have to coordinate cameras on both the catcher and on him before he starts to throw. Not likely to happen.