The Blame Game: Pick the Single Biggest Issue With the Offense

What is the single biggest issue with the offense?

  • Mac Jones

    Votes: 21 7.2%
  • Offensive Line

    Votes: 114 39.2%
  • Matt Patricia

    Votes: 105 36.1%
  • Skill Position Players

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • Bill the GM's Decision Making

    Votes: 43 14.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 1.7%

  • Total voters
    291

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I generally find much of the criticism of Bill the GM to be misplaced talk radio nonsense, but to me it's obviously the issue here:
  • Isaiah Wynn is the highest-paid and highest-drafted member of the OL. He's been bad, benched, and now injured
  • Nelson Agholor has the fifth-highest WR cap hit in football. He vacillates between WR3-5 and is on place to barely clear 500 yards
  • They are paying Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith 8 figures a year. They barely run any 2 TE stuff because the combination is so bad. Jonnu is a $12.5 MM / year backup. He played less than 20 snaps last night for the second game in a row and the fourth time this year
  • Mac is the highest-drafted player on O and has been one of the worst QBs in football this year
The investment has been there on offense. The results have not.
I don't disagree at all but its also worth noting that an offense with pretty much the same ingredients was 9th in offensive DVOA last year and 5th in weighted offensive DVOA, seemingly getting better over the course of the season. 6th in points scored too.

Every year is a new year and all that. But this was an offense last year that, while lacking explosiveness and high end playmakers, was still pretty competent and productive despite having a rookie QB and integrating a lot of new faces into the mix. The mediocrity of the parts has largely been a constant, but the unit has gone from being more than the sum of its parts to substantially less.

What changed in the off-season was Matt Patricia/Joe Judge and all the associated decisions to adjust schemes. BB has to own a big part of that too of course.
 

RedOctober3829

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The most blame goes to Bill for putting Patricia and Judge in the positions they're in. Only a fool would think that two coaches who spent next to no time on the offensive side of the ball would be the right choice to replace Josh McDaniels. Step back and think about this for a minute: the greatest coach of all time sat there and decided that Matt Patricia and Joe Judge would be the right choices to lead the offense. I couldn't believe it then and I can't believe it now. Not only is Patricia the OC, but he's also the OL coach. I can't think of one NFL team that has ever had that combination before. The OL is the biggest position group and most important group to the offense's success. There can not be enough time in the day to a quality job when you're splitting those duties. Bill is doing a disservice to the team by putting Patricia in both of those roles. I am sick and tired of him not going outside the organization to find the best coaches he can when there's an opening on his staff. The notion that you have to be brought up in the Patriots system to coach there is ridiculous. If there isn't an obvious replacement in-house for a hole on the staff, you don't just have to promote whoever is there to take their place. Go get an experienced offensive coach who has a track record of developing young QBs and running a successful offense. If Bill wants to run a certain offensive system, fine. But, go get coaches that have run that system off another team so they can help implement it and they'd also have knowledge of troubleshooting issues from their past experiences. What do Patricia and Judge have to fall back on when there's adversity or something doesn't work? If you wanted to emphasize wide zone runs more, go get an offensive line coach who has been in a wide zone system so he can teach the right way to do things.

The team also for the last 2-3 years has been terrible in doing the little details correct. Mentally tough and fundamentally sound football used to be the standard in Foxboro. You hear it all the time from Bill: the first step in winning a game is learning how to not lose it. Now it's countless mental mistakes, costly turnovers, penalties, and bad clock management . The end of the first half the last 2 weeks has been nothing short of a clown show with the clock management. That comes back to Bill for me. Is he spread too thin trying to fill gaps or help Patricia/Judge along or last year taking over the defense that he doesn't have time to emphasize the attention to detail stuff? They historically have one of the smallest staffs in the league.

It's obvious they need a talent upgrade in almost all areas. They are paying the price for years and years of horrible draft classes. Then they had to spend a ton of money in FA after 2020 just to fill some of those holes and that really never pans out. You can't make those picks up in just a year or two. It's going to be a long haul to develop a young core group. That's the problem because in the AFC East you have all 3 teams that have a young core at premium positions to build around. Buffalo has Allen/Diggs/White/Rousseau/Edmunds/Milano/Oliver. Miami has Tua/HIll/Waddle/Chubb/Howard/Armstead/Wilkins/Holland. The Jets have Garrett Wilson/Breece Hall/Sauce Gardner/Quinnen Williams/Vera-Tucker/Conklin and if they are able to get somebody like Jimmy G to step in for Zach Wilson their offense will be much better.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This team is missing talent among the players and coaching staff. Everything falls apart from there. That falls on Bill the GM.

Bill, the HC is the only reason this team is 6-6. He can still coach and game plan as well as anyone. He just doesn't have the horses to do more than that, and that falls on him as the GM.

The problem is that I'm not sure there is any way to fix it, unless he is willing to give up the GM duties (at least on the offensive side of the ball) to someone else, and bring in a coordinator to run the show. And I don't care if they go 6-11, 5-12, I'm not giving up on Bill, the HC until he passes Shula. Others definitely won't feel the same way, but "what have you done for me lately" has a couple of exceptions in sports for me. This is one of them.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Henry is on pace for <500 yards this year and 3 TD. I guess he hasn’t been a massive problem but he hardly seems like an asset; although perhaps they just aren’t utilizing him correctly. Of course, they completely whiffed on the two TE’s they drafted post Gronk so I guess they kind of had to do something.
 

Norm Siebern

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It begins and ends with the offensive line. You can't throw the ball down the field if you don't have time for pass routes to develop. You can't run the ball consistently if there are no holes being opened. The reason Stevenson excels in yards after contact is because he is always being contacted, usually two yards behind the line of scrimmage. The reason Patricia calls short passes and outside swing passes and Meyers runs six yard routes instead of ten yard routes is all the same. It's the offensive line. It is terrible, the worst I can remember in fifty years of watching football. Fix the offensive line, and everything else gets fixed.
 

BaseballJones

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Do you think the contracts given to Agholor, Smith, and Henry were good? I get that not all of them can put up big numbers but none of them are; and Smith barely even plays. They spent a ton of money on offensive weapons and the offense is still mediocre, especially against decent teams.
Henry, yes.
Agholor, meh. Overpay, but not for many years, and at the time it was ok. He's a decent receiver, nothing more.
Smith, I thought so at the time. I thought he was going to be pretty electric for the Pats. Hasn't turned out that way, but you see flashes. Again, there's only one ball to go around. But this is probably the worst of the three.
 

BigSoxFan

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The most blame goes to Bill for putting Patricia and Judge in the positions they're in. Only a fool would think that two coaches who spent next to no time on the offensive side of the ball would be the right choice to replace Josh McDaniels. Step back and think about this for a minute: the greatest coach of all time sat there and decided that Matt Patricia and Joe Judge would be the right choices to lead the offense. I couldn't believe it then and I can't believe it now. Not only is Patricia the OC, but he's also the OL coach. I can't think of one NFL team that has ever had that combination before. The OL is the biggest position group and most important group to the offense's success. There can not be enough time in the day to a quality job when you're splitting those duties. Bill is doing a disservice to the team by putting Patricia in both of those roles. I am sick and tired of him not going outside the organization to find the best coaches he can when there's an opening on his staff. The notion that you have to be brought up in the Patriots system to coach there is ridiculous. If there isn't an obvious replacement in-house for a hole on the staff, you don't just have to promote whoever is there to take their place. Go get an experienced offensive coach who has a track record of developing young QBs and running a successful offense. If Bill wants to run a certain offensive system, fine. But, go get coaches that have run that system off another team so they can help implement it and they'd also have knowledge of troubleshooting issues from their past experiences. What do Patricia and Judge have to fall back on when there's adversity or something doesn't work? If you wanted to emphasize wide zone runs more, go get an offensive line coach who has been in a wide zone system so he can teach the right way to do things.

The team also for the last 2-3 years has been terrible in doing the little details correct. Mentally tough and fundamentally sound football used to be the standard in Foxboro. You hear it all the time from Bill: the first step in winning a game is learning how to not lose it. Now it's countless mental mistakes, costly turnovers, penalties, and bad clock management . The end of the first half the last 2 weeks has been nothing short of a clown show with the clock management. That comes back to Bill for me. Is he spread too thin trying to fill gaps or help Patricia/Judge along or last year taking over the defense that he doesn't have time to emphasize the attention to detail stuff? They historically have one of the smallest staffs in the league.

It's obvious they need a talent upgrade in almost all areas. They are paying the price for years and years of horrible draft classes. Then they had to spend a ton of money in FA after 2020 just to fill some of those holes and that really never pans out. You can't make those picks up in just a year or two. It's going to be a long haul to develop a young core group. That's the problem because in the AFC East you have all 3 teams that have a young core at premium positions to build around. Buffalo has Allen/Diggs/White/Rousseau/Edmunds/Milano/Oliver. Miami has Tua/HIll/Waddle/Chubb/Howard/Armstead/Wilkins/Holland. The Jets have Garrett Wilson/Breece Hall/Sauce Gardner/Quinnen Williams/Vera-Tucker/Conklin and if they are able to get somebody like Jimmy G to step in for Zach Wilson their offense will be much better.
Bill's mantra has always been to play the players who give the team the best chance to win. He, quite simply, doesn't follow that approach with his coaching staff. He picks guys he's comfortable with even though they're clearly not what's best for the team. There isn't a single argument that can be made to justify the Patricia/Judge decisions. He was doing a solid for his guys. That, in itself, is somewhat admirable but it's a move that has materially impacted this team. We're all human. We all have blind spots. Bringing in "his" guys is clearly one of Belichick's.
 

Bongorific

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Henry is on pace for <500 yards this year and 3 TD. I guess he hasn’t been a massive problem but he hardly seems like an asset; although perhaps they just aren’t utilizing him correctly. Of course, they completely whiffed on the two TE’s they drafted post Gronk so I guess they kind of had to do something.
He had a good season last year. If you look at him and Knox they have very similar stats last year and this year and are paid similarly. Yes, he’s not an elite talent, but he’s an average to above-average receiving TE and being paid market rate.

Jonu is a different story. I liked targeting him as a signing because he’s athletic and dynamic, and the fans have been complaining for years about the lack of dynamic talent. He was seriously overpaid though and didn’t seem like a complimentary fit with another receiving TE signed at the same time.
 

EddieYost

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I voted Patricia. I understand the sentiment for Bill the GM, but that would be true for any poll like this.
 

dcdrew10

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This is 100% a result of BB's decision making. Everything flows from the top down. He drafts and signs players, hires and assigns coaches. There are exactly three people who thought Patricia and Judge could coach offense and a subunit each, BB, Patricia, and Judge. I could squint and see Matty P maybe coaching OL or an assistant OL. Acord needs help/to be replaced. The ST has gone from the most reliable unit to another piece of garbage in the trash barrel that is the season. The coaching brain drain the last 4+ years has been staggering and it doesn't seem like BB has made much effort bring in and train up replacements. Mediocre drafting and personnel decisions have really bit the team in the ass. It's not like McDaniels was hired by the Raiders late in the game. He was hired BEFORE the Super Bowl. BB had every opportunity to hire a competent offensive coordinator. He didn't/couldn't/wouldn't. Now the offense is a shit show on every level except Rham.

To me the two biggest signs that there are leadership issues at the top are the penalties and mental lapses. Either the coaches are not coaching the mental game well or the players are tuning them out. The defense seems like it is good, though the secondary is really up and down, which to me seems like a coaching issue.

Not saying Belichick needs to go, but he certainly needs to up his game or be gone. Try to pry BOB away from Alabama, hire someone with some coaching ability. If Belichick can't get some effective offensive coaching in place next year, then it should be his last dance with the Patriots.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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I voted in terms of the first domino to fall, which is Bill the GM. He was happy with a patchwork O Line and last year blew a bunch of money on skill positions because the Pats have blown their drafts at these positions for the last X number of years. Hunter and Jonnu cost a combined $25 million and have caught 47 passes combined, 3 less than Meyers and 9 less than Stevenson. While it may be simply poor performance by them, if I were to look at the all 22 my guess is their lack of catches is due in part from staying in and helping the shitty O Line.

Dante Scarnecchia (combined with quick decisions by Brady) covered up a lot of sins in the composition of the line in the past. Then you have Mac who had great WRs at Alabama and tended to throw outside the numbers to his playmakers. So WHY did BB make the decision to invest in these TEs as if TB-12 was still QB, at the ultimate expense of going cheap with the O Line which does not have one of the best ever coaching them up?

His latest sin which I personally consider a GM as opposed to a coaching decision (ymmv), was the Patricia selection AS AN OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR. The Lions had offensive ranks of 18th and 20th Patricia's last 2 years there with Matt Stafford. In his second year with Jared Goff, Dan Campbell now has the Lions ranked 8th in offense. No shade on voting Patricia in the poll, but he did not put himself in his current position.
 

Deathofthebambino

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He had a good season last year. If you look at him and Knox they have very similar stats last year and this year and are paid similarly. Yes, he’s not an elite talent, but he’s an average to above-average receiving TE and being paid market rate.

Jonu is a different story. I liked targeting him as a signing because he’s athletic and dynamic, and the fans have been complaining for years about the lack of dynamic talent. He was seriously overpaid though and didn’t seem like a complimentary fit with another receiving TE signed at the same time.
I think Knox's stats last year are more relevant to the discussion of "one ball to go around" than Henry's. Diggs and Beasley combined for 185 catches last year on 276 targets. The Pats top 2, Meyers and Bourne, combined for 138 on 196 targets. So there just aren't the opportunities in Buffalo for Knox. Diggs, this season, has almost the same number of targets (128) as the Pats top 3 receivers, Meyers, Rham and Agholor have receptions (131).

That said, I don't think there is much of a difference between Knox and Henry, except maybe that Knox is a bit more athletic because he's a couple years younger.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I guess I'd ultimately go with Bill the GM, although Patricia seems to me to be the easiest and most logical place to make the first change. Would this OL be any better with Dante coaching them up in light of all the injuries? Who knows--maybe not, but the sloppiness, mental errors, etc are highly uncharacteristic of previous years, regardless of the talent level.. At least with experienced guys running the offense and coaching the OL you can take lousy coaching as a potential variable in the equation.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The OL was not supposed to be a problem going into the year, was it? It was deemed a top ten unit, even after they moved Mason. So what the heck happened? Wynn was awful, Brown underperforming, and Strange meh. Is that coaching or the personnel?
 

E5 Yaz

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I went with Bill the GM, because all of the other options flow from decisions he made. He chose Mac, he brought back Matt, he gave contracts to those receivers and TEs, and he put together that OL. If you're blaming any of those ingredients for the failure of the dish, you're ultimately blaming the chef who chose them.
Saved me a lot of keystrokes, right there
 

NDame616

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So when answering this I look at what would happen if you "fixed" that issue.

If we had Josh Allen/Mahoomes/Tua/whomever you think is the best QB in the league, how much better would we be?
If we had the best OL in the NFL, how much better would we be?
If you took the best OC and put him in charge of the offense, how much better would we be?

We may have squeezed out an extra win. But there would still be major talent issues.

Bill the GM picked the groceries on the field. Bill the GM chose Patricia to lead a 2nd year QB. The problem with this team is talent and staff related, which is 100% on Bill.

IMO there is no bigger issue than our GM
 

lexrageorge

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The OL was not supposed to be a problem going into the year, was it? It was deemed a top ten unit, even after they moved Mason. So what the heck happened? Wynn was awful, Brown underperforming, and Strange meh. Is that coaching or the personnel?
The OL was bad in training camp.

Strange is clearly hitting a rookie wall. But Wynn was never good; numerous injuries early in his career and was always mediocre at best, even under the prior OL coaches. Brown is one of those guys that struggles with conditioning, and is not as young as he used to be.

It is the personnel; sometimes players fall off cliffs early in the NFL.
 

Van Everyman

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Tom Brady for leaving NE.

If people would just accept that rebuilding an offense doesn't happen overnight--especially when the greatest QB of all time leaves and his coordinator two years later--and that results will be uneven in the interim I think they will be less angry and emotional about this. We're not there yet. And as I've said 100 times on this board already, I would rather be watching Bill do this rebuild than any other coach because even if it doesn't produce more Super Bowl wins the guy is infinitely more innovative and compelling to observe than 1000 Sean McVays or McDermotts.
 

Nator

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I also voted for Matt because for some reason I feel like he's got a beef with Kendrick Bourne which keeps him off the field. He's a guy that makes good things happen when he gets the ball. He should be ahead of Nelson on the depth chart.
 

thestardawg

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I also voted for Matt because for some reason I feel like he's got a beef with Kendrick Bourne which keeps him off the field. He's a guy that makes good things happen when he gets the ball. He should be ahead of Nelson on the depth chart.
Bourne also has committed a ton of boneheaded penalties, frequent drops and is outspoken. I cant blame Matty P for this one.
 

HurstSoGood

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I caught the second half of the game. Perhaps that begs "small sample size," but my eyes saw the OL quit on Mac last night in the 4Q. Straight up quit.

There is a lot of blame to go around, for sure, but that kind of stuff is a a team killer.
 

pjheff

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I voted Patricia, as he is the only one who has no track record of success in his current roles. I feel for the guy because he was put in an awful position, and I don't have a problem with him keeping a role in the organization, but it should not be as offensive playcaller.
 

Cellar-Door

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I would say currently it's
OL (followed by Mac and coaching)
Earlier in the year before injuries and collapse I had it as Mac followed by coaching
 

Jinhocho

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Patricia and Judge. Wynn is terrible and probably cooked from injuries, but the rest of that unit should be workable. That coaching staff does not put them in a position to win.
Trent Brown has been a disaster. Andrews hurt multiple times this year. Cannon on IR. Cajuste hurt multiple times. They literally had a guy signed off the Jets practice squad playing last night. The line has been a disaster - underperformed when healthy and been awful when not healthy.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Offensive line for me.

That includes terrible coaching (Matty P.) and terrible drafting (Did we REALLY need to spend a first rounder on Cole Strange? Though he's Anthony Munoz compared with Isaiah Wynn).

But just focusing on the returning players -- Andrews, Brown, Onwenu, Wynn -- all seem demonstrably worse than they were last year to my untrained eye.

I'll now sit back and let someone correct me with PFF stat proof.
 

Super Nomario

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I don't disagree at all but its also worth noting that an offense with pretty much the same ingredients was 9th in offensive DVOA last year and 5th in weighted offensive DVOA, seemingly getting better over the course of the season. 6th in points scored too.
I think those numbers overstate things - they weren't playing like a top 10 offense week-to-week, but when they were good they were amazing (CLE, JAX, one of the Jets games, TEN). But point taken, they were definitely better last year.



Every year is a new year and all that. But this was an offense last year that, while lacking explosiveness and high end playmakers, was still pretty competent and productive despite having a rookie QB and integrating a lot of new faces into the mix. The mediocrity of the parts has largely been a constant, but the unit has gone from being more than the sum of its parts to substantially less.

What changed in the off-season was Matt Patricia/Joe Judge and all the associated decisions to adjust schemes. BB has to own a big part of that too of course.
I think the OL personnel is pretty different, too. They changed both guards, and while Onwenu has been great, Strange has had rookie struggles. The two larger issues are a) the regression of Wynn (and Justin Herron) and b) the complete lack of depth on OL.

The offense has had its struggles all year but I think the shape of those struggles has changed.
1) Weeks 1 - 3: O moving the ball OK but too many turnovers. Mac only took 4 sacks in those three games.
2) Weeks 4 - 8: QB weirdness hurts the team vs GB and CHI, sandwiched around arguably the two best offensive performances all year, both with Zappe against crappy defenses.
3) Weeks 9 - present: Mac cuts down on the turnovers ... but now the OL is banged up. The first 5-6 weeks saw basically the same OL configuration every game. Then Wynn missed the Chicago game, Andrews missed most of the four games after that, Cannon went on IR, Wynn came back and got hurt again, and Cajuste missed the last game. A team should be able to weather an OL injury or two, but the depth is extremely bad. The guys who've gotten forced into action - Ferentz, Cannon, McDermott - were all street FAs at some point in the last year. Last year they had Karras and Herron as the 6th and 7th OL, guys with decent starting experience. This year it's castoffs and late round rookies that they don't trust to play. I mean, we laugh about Bill Murray's moustache and the fact that he's named Bill Murray, but the fact that they've seen fit to dress him as their 8th OL three times, in his first year converting over from DL, is pretty damning.

I think the OL was disappointing the first 6-7 weeks (especially for a team that wanted to run the ball a lot), but it's only really been this bad the last few, when injuries exposed the complete lack of depth. To me that's a significant change from last year, when you had Karras as your top IOL backup (and then Onwenu later in the season), Herron as T depth, and better health from Wynn and Andrews. Brown has been healthier this year, though there have been a couple games he probably shouldn't have played and wouldn't have played if they had an at-all acceptable alternative. Last night they started their 5th different OT - and their third OT was a street FA. Ferentz spent much of last year on the practice squad and he's now their top IOL backup and has nearly played double the snaps he did in 2021.

I'm not excusing the coaching, I think it's very hard to judge from outside. Patricia and Judge are easy punching bags because they were bad head coaches and don't have traditional qualifications for their current roles. I don't know if the issues we're seeing stem from items in their domains or not. Probably some. But I did want to push back against the idea this is the same group. It's a worse OL with much worse depth and it's predictably suffered tremendously as the injuries have piled up.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Yes I agree: the Henry, Smith and Agholor signings have been a disaster.
Have they? Or do you have a QB that can't get them the ball?

I think there's a lot of blame to go around, but I can't get over the fact that they've had to dumb down the offense so much for Mac that defenses were literally calling out their plays a couple weeks ago. I have no idea if the OC sucks because his QB vomits all over himself every time the game gets tough and needs to be spoon fed an vanilla and bland offense. I'm not discounting that some of the dumbing down might also be because the OL is terrible, but a decent QB would at least be able to move the ball in the situation. Mac looked absolutely lost last night, at usual.
 

lexrageorge

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Have they? Or do you have a QB that can't get them the ball?

I think there's a lot of blame to go around, but I can't get over the fact that they've had to dumb down the offense so much for Mac that defenses were literally calling out their plays a couple weeks ago. I have no idea if the OC sucks because his QB vomits all over himself every time the game gets tough and needs to be spoon fed an vanilla and bland offense. I'm not discounting that some of the dumbing down might also be because the OL is terrible, but a decent QB would at least be able to move the ball in the situation. Mac looked absolutely lost last night, at usual.
Smith has been invisible since he arrived. Agholor ran a bad route and so was not in position to catch a well thrown ball at the end of the Vikings game.

None of the above excludes the possibility of Mac playing poorly.
 

BaseballJones

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Smith has been invisible since he arrived. Agholor ran a bad route was held for three yards at the break of his route and so was not in position to catch a well thrown ball at the end of the Vikings game.

None of the above excludes the possibility of Mac playing poorly.
Fixed that for you.

(he may not have run the crispest route, but he would have been there if not for being held)
 

Commander Shears

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I think this general conversation is kind of interesting in that almost all of the subjects would be fine as long as they're allowed to be the weak link. Strange would be fine if he's between two quality linemen, Jones is fine if he has great protection and good weapons, the receivers are fine as long as they aren't asked to be 'number one', and I even think Patricia would probably be fine if he were calling plays for Brady/Edelman/Gronkowski. The offense isn't coordinated because Belichick didn't hire a coordinator. All roads lead to him. He's been amassing guys who are good enough to make the team but not good enough to make the team better.
 

Ed Hillel

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Trent Brown has been a disaster. Andrews hurt multiple times this year. Cannon on IR. Cajuste hurt multiple times. They literally had a guy signed off the Jets practice squad playing last night. The line has been a disaster - underperformed when healthy and been awful when not healthy.
I don’t know, I think Brown has gotten a lot of gruff for issues that are Mac’s fault. Not that he’s been great, but when your QB holds the ball for 5 seconds on quick reads, it makes everyone look bad.
 

Ale Xander

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Pretty much everyone besides Rham, Jacobi, Bourne, and Henry but have to vote for the rocket scientist
 

NortheasternPJ

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The OL was bad in training camp.

Strange is clearly hitting a rookie wall. But Wynn was never good; numerous injuries early in his career and was always mediocre at best, even under the prior OL coaches. Brown is one of those guys that struggles with conditioning, and is not as young as he used to be.

It is the personnel; sometimes players fall off cliffs early in the NFL.
Well maybe they would have been better if a guy who’s never coached offense before didn’t come in, spend all of training camp trying to change the entire scheme with no previous experience in it. I forget who said it but instead of hiring a coach that actually knew how to do it it’s the equivalent of Patricia watching a YouTube DIY video and pretending to be and expert.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Well maybe they would have been better if a guy who’s never coached offense before didn’t come in, spend all of training camp trying to change the entire scheme with no previous experience in it. I forget who said it but instead of hiring a coach that actually knew how to do it it’s the equivalent of Patricia watching a YouTube DIY video and pretending to be and expert.
It's not like the guy was plucked out of the stands. He's been a coach for a long time and spent last year in a consulting role (maybe refining his thinking). Now that doesn't discount that he's probably gone about it incorrectly and is probably a failure at it, but he had the experience and trust off Bill.
 

E5 Yaz

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As I type this, 175 votes have been registered ... and 167 have cited reasons other than the quarterback.
And, yet, the board's most-vehement discussions center on how much of a disaster Mac Jones has been.
 

luckiestman

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Jul 15, 2005
27,204
I don't disagree at all but its also worth noting that an offense with pretty much the same ingredients was 9th in offensive DVOA last year and 5th in weighted offensive DVOA, seemingly getting better over the course of the season. 6th in points scored too.
They scores almost 80 against the Jets last year and 25 this year. How much is that driving some of this statistical difference.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Nov 16, 2004
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It's not like the guy was plucked out of the stands. He's been a coach for a long time and spent last year in a consulting role (maybe refining his thinking). Now that doesn't discount that he's probably gone about it incorrectly and is probably a failure at it, but he had the experience and trust off Bill.
I don’t care if he has 20 years of non offense experience and he could have been a rocket scientist or that him and Bill like to have a beer in the club on the field after a win. He’s an arrogant prick who thinks he’s better and smarter than everyone else that decided to make massive changes to an offense with zero experience in the role. He’s also doing multiple jobs and there was at least one significant discussion here in the off season on how unusual it is to not have a full time senior level offensive line coach and to have someone be OC and Oline coach. Now both the Oline and play calling sucks.

Patricia is awful but Bill for my vote because he is setting up and overseeing this mess from the structure of Patriticas roles to choosing him in the first place.
 

E5 Yaz

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They scores almost 80 against the Jets last year and 25 this year. How much is that driving some of this statistical difference.
They also hung up a 50 burger on Jacksonville last season. So, it points to being top-heavy.
They've already had five sub-20 point games the season, which is as many as they had all last year.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
20,055
I think this general conversation is kind of interesting in that almost all of the subjects would be fine as long as they're allowed to be the weak link. Strange would be fine if he's between two quality linemen, Jones is fine if he has great protection and good weapons, the receivers are fine as long as they aren't asked to be 'number one', and I even think Patricia would probably be fine if he were calling plays for Brady/Edelman/Gronkowski. The offense isn't coordinated because Belichick didn't hire a coordinator. All roads lead to him. He's been amassing guys who are good enough to make the team but not good enough to make the team better.
Rebuilding is a process that takes time. He's putting pieces in place. Let's compare from 2020 to today...

2020
- Off rank: #27 points, #27 yards
- Def rank: #7 points, #15 yards

2022
- Off rank: #20 points, #25 yards
- Def rank: #8 points, #8 yards

QB: Went from Cam Newton, who was never going to lead the Patriots anywhere, to Mac Jones, who looks like he might not be the answer either, but at least he's young and has the potential of getting better. I think the Pats are still better off now at the QB position than they were in 2020.

RB: Went from a rookie Damien Harris and Rex Burkhead (Cam was their leading scorer on the ground with 12 TD) to a proven Harris and Stevenson. To me this is a significant upgrade at the RB position, with a bright future ahead of them. Stevenson is going to be a beast for years to come.

WR: Went from Meyers, Byrd, Harry, and a broken down and soon-to-retire Edelman to Meyers, Agholor, Bourne, Parker, Thornton. Not that we have the second coming of Swann and Stallworth or Rice and Taylor, but that's a significant upgrade at the WR position.

TE: Went from Izzo, Keene, and Asiasi to Henry and Smith. Again, Henry and Smith aren't exactly Gronk but that's still a major upgrade at the TE position.

OL: Went from Wynn, Thuney, Andrews, Mason, and Onwenu (who was great as a rookie) to Brown, Strange, Andrews, Onwenu, and Wynn. Given the injuries and poor play, the current line is significantly worse than it was in 2020. Major downgrade here.

So on the offensive side of the ball, their roster has improved considerably at all the skill positions; the OL is the major downer.

DL: Went from Wise, Guy (heh), Cowart, and Simon to Wise (much improved), Guy, Barmore, and Godchaux. Depth this year is much better. Overall quality is much better now than it was. Significant upgrade at DL from 2020.

LB: Went from Bentley, Hall, Copeland, and rookies Uche and Jennings to much improved Uche, Judon, Wilson, McMillan, and improved Bentley and Jennings. Serious upgrade at LB in 2022 from 2020.

CB: Went from Gilmore and Jason McCourty, with JC Jackson playing a ton, and Jonathan Jones and Williams in the mix too, to Jack Jones, Jonathan Jones, Mills, Bryant. I think the 2020 group was better with Gilmore and Jackson both doing well. But I'm ok with this group as well. Jack Jones is an up and coming stud. Jonathan Jones has been good for the most part. Mills is fine. Bryant sucks, but Bryant sucked in 2020 as well. Overall this is a downgrade to this position, but it's not like they have bad corners this year. The young guys (especially if Marcus Jones comes along) are exciting.

S: Went from Phillips, DMcCourty, Dugger (rookie) to Phillips, DMcCourty (aging and slower), Dugger (much improved), and Peppers. The decline of DMac is offset by the improvement of Dugger. Phillips is a good player. Peppers is versatile at least. I give this current safety group a little edge, thanks to how good Dugger is now. Pro Bowl level player. Call this even or a slight edge to the 2022 group.

K/P: Went from Folk and Bailey to Folk and some guy whose name I can't even remember off the top of my head. Wash.

KR/PR: Went from Gunner to Marcus Jones. Kind of a wash because that year Gunner was all-pro. But Marcus...man this kid is electric. Call it even.

So on the defensive side of the ball, I'd say CB is downgraded from 2020, but DL and LB are MUCH better, and they do have terrific young CBs. Safety has an emerging star in Dugger, but probably need more moving forward. Special teams are a bit of a wash.

On the whole, I think the roster in 2022 is much better than it was in 2020, when the rebuild began. There's many places they need to improve, but they've already done a lot of improving with respect to the roster itself. We wanted the to get faster and more athletic, and they definitely are that, at LB, CB, and WR especially.

The coaching staff is another story altogether. Swapping out McDaniels for Patricia has.....been bad. Very bad. And for everyone who ripped on McDaniels while he was here had better rethink that because a good OC really can help the offense in every way. He's SO much better at that job than Patricia is, it's not even funny. So I'd give the coaching staff a major downgrade.

So where to improve? Most realistically?

QB - Either Mac needs to get better or they need to find another guy.
S - Need another young stud there to pair with Dugger.
OL - Good lord, they need an overhaul on the line. Keep Strange and Andrews, and have Onwenu be a guy you can play at G or T, but they need a TON of help on the OL - roster position #1 for retooling. It's not sexy, but man, it's important.
WR - If somehow, some way, they could get a true #1 receiver, that would be amazing. But just keep in mind that having a #1 receiver at a high cost that limits you elsewhere may - or may not - really help all that much. Adams in Vegas is a great example. Elite, world-class WR, but the Raiders aren't very good.
P - Need a new punter. Not the top priority, but they do need to improve there.
COACHING STAFF - Either the current guys need to improve dramatically or they need to find some new guys. One good thing is that for the first time in forever, I doubt anyone will poach any of NE's coaches!
 
Feb 8, 2017
118
“"I think they’re both good coaches [Judge and Patricia]…. "Ultimately, it’s my responsibility, like it always is. So if it doesn’t go well, blame me." - Bill Belichick, ~September of this year.

Accordingly, as it isnt going well, I blame Belichick.

Honestly it’s hard to evaluate individual components of the offense, since everything kind of sucks. The Oline sucks, Mac is regressing, the receivers are a pu-pu platter of general suck, the play calling sucks. The coaching (reflected in bad situational football, bad penalties, clock management, etc) suck. They can only beat teams who manage to suck even harder than they do. Pet peeve- the uniforms suck (not the throwbacks, they’re cool

Thank goodness for winter sports at the Gahden!
 

astrozombie

lurker
Sep 12, 2022
92
I went with Patricia. I am on record here as hating Bill the GM (a lot) but there are enough pieces here to have at least a workable offense. If the offensive unit resembled anything other than a bottom-5 three-and-out machine, the defense could hold and this would be a team firmly in the hunt for the playoffs. Not elite, but also not hoping things break their way and they can scrape together enough points to eek out wins. But every time I watch the offence, Mac looks scared AF he is going to get murdered, at least one person has no idea what the play is going to be, there seems to consistently be a handful of negative plays per drive, 3-and-outs galore, penalties, defenses knowing the exact play and stopping it easily... a lot of that falls on coaching. And Patricia's CV to this point is hot garbage with the sole exception of "friend of Belichick", which supersedes everything else. If this kind of thing happened on the Jets (and they hired another failed head coach to do... something outside their specialty, as well as their children) we would all be laughing at the incompetence.
Bill the GM is the thinnest of hairs below Patricia. He assembled this staff, but also did fun stuff like reach for Wynn, Michel (RBs are the most replaceable, shortest tenured positions, drafting them in the first is a joke) and Strange, pay a ton for Smith/Henry/Agholor/Bourne and then staple them to the bench and look around and see successful teams go help their QBs with elite WRs (Brown on the Eagles, Jefferson on the Vikes, Hill on the Fins, Diggs on the Bills, etc.) and say "you know what, let's not do that because I know better" or something. But once again, I think that if this unit was coached by someone even remotely competent or young/hungry, they would be at least average.