The Blame Game: Pick the Single Biggest Issue With the Offense

What is the single biggest issue with the offense?

  • Mac Jones

    Votes: 21 7.2%
  • Offensive Line

    Votes: 114 39.2%
  • Matt Patricia

    Votes: 105 36.1%
  • Skill Position Players

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • Bill the GM's Decision Making

    Votes: 43 14.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 1.7%

  • Total voters
    291

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think the OL personnel is pretty different, too. They changed both guards, and while Onwenu has been great, Strange has had rookie struggles. The two larger issues are a) the regression of Wynn (and Justin Herron) and b) the complete lack of depth on OL.

The offense has had its struggles all year but I think the shape of those struggles has changed.
1) Weeks 1 - 3: O moving the ball OK but too many turnovers. Mac only took 4 sacks in those three games.
2) Weeks 4 - 8: QB weirdness hurts the team vs GB and CHI, sandwiched around arguably the two best offensive performances all year, both with Zappe against crappy defenses.
3) Weeks 9 - present: Mac cuts down on the turnovers ... but now the OL is banged up. The first 5-6 weeks saw basically the same OL configuration every game. Then Wynn missed the Chicago game, Andrews missed most of the four games after that, Cannon went on IR, Wynn came back and got hurt again, and Cajuste missed the last game. A team should be able to weather an OL injury or two, but the depth is extremely bad. The guys who've gotten forced into action - Ferentz, Cannon, McDermott - were all street FAs at some point in the last year. Last year they had Karras and Herron as the 6th and 7th OL, guys with decent starting experience. This year it's castoffs and late round rookies that they don't trust to play. I mean, we laugh about Bill Murray's moustache and the fact that he's named Bill Murray, but the fact that they've seen fit to dress him as their 8th OL three times, in his first year converting over from DL, is pretty damning.

I think the OL was disappointing the first 6-7 weeks (especially for a team that wanted to run the ball a lot), but it's only really been this bad the last few, when injuries exposed the complete lack of depth. To me that's a significant change from last year, when you had Karras as your top IOL backup (and then Onwenu later in the season), Herron as T depth, and better health from Wynn and Andrews. Brown has been healthier this year, though there have been a couple games he probably shouldn't have played and wouldn't have played if they had an at-all acceptable alternative. Last night they started their 5th different OT - and their third OT was a street FA. Ferentz spent much of last year on the practice squad and he's now their top IOL backup and has nearly played double the snaps he did in 2021.

I'm not excusing the coaching, I think it's very hard to judge from outside. Patricia and Judge are easy punching bags because they were bad head coaches and don't have traditional qualifications for their current roles. I don't know if the issues we're seeing stem from items in their domains or not. Probably some. But I did want to push back against the idea this is the same group. It's a worse OL with much worse depth and it's predictably suffered tremendously as the injuries have piled up.
That is all very well argued. The OL is clearly a lot different and substantially worse, both in terms of talent and health/continuity.

I guess at the end of the day we can just say that last year a top 10 OL plus one of the best OCs in the game helped cover for a mediocre set of weapons led by a somewhat limited QB. When you take substantial downgrades to both OL and offensive coaching, you end up with a bottom five offense.
 

BaseballJones

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Thankfully, they're not a bottom five offense.

They're #20 in points scored. (bottom 12)
They're #25 in yards gained. (bottom 7)
They're #18 in OSRS. (bottom 14)

They're bad. Well below average. But not bottom five.
 

jsinger121

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Thankfully, they're not a bottom five offense.

They're #20 in points scored. (bottom 12)
They're #25 in yards gained. (bottom 7)
They're #18 in OSRS. (bottom 14)

They're bad. Well below average. But not bottom five.
Still 5 games to get even worse!
 

E5 Yaz

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Thankfully, they're not a bottom five offense.

They're #20 in points scored. (bottom 12)
They're #25 in yards gained. (bottom 7)
They're #18 in OSRS. (bottom 14)

They're bad. Well below average. But not bottom five.
How do they rank among teams that have seen the biggest drop-off from 2021 to 2022?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Thankfully, they're not a bottom five offense.

They're #20 in points scored. (bottom 12)
They're #25 in yards gained. (bottom 7)
They're #18 in OSRS. (bottom 14)

They're bad. Well below average. But not bottom five.
I guess this is the smallest of consolations. Still. They stink. In any game where they fall behind by 10 points the game is over.
 

Arroyoyo

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As I type this, 175 votes have been registered ... and 167 have cited reasons other than the quarterback.
And, yet, the board's most-vehement discussions center on how much of a disaster Mac Jones has been.
The question was to pick the single biggest issue. That’s why I picked Bill the GM. Because there is a lot of average or below average talent on the offensive side of the ball.

Including Mac Jones.
 

E5 Yaz

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The question was to pick the single biggest issue. That’s why I picked Bill the GM. Because there is a lot of average or below average talent on the offensive side of the ball.

Including Mac Jones.
Exactly.
If there was a point to my mentioning the poll results (I'm honestly not sure there was one), it would be that all the noise across this board about Mac's regression (and inability to rebound from it) would seem to have overshadowed what the majority of those voting actually think ... that the problems are everywhere and go well beyond his performance
 

BaseballJones

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Packers, in terms of winning percentage, have seen a bigger drop. Their 2022 is probably the most surprising in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean, I know they lost Adams, but holy smokes they went from 13-3, 13-3, 13-4 (last year) to 4-8 this year. Their offense was #1 in the NFL in points scored in 2020, which dropped to #10 last year, and is now #23. Their defense has dropped from #13 in points allowed down to #22.

AND their QB is old and running out of time, AND is making an absolute fortune. Talk about a team with very little to look forward to in the next few years. And for all that Rodgers brought them, they only made it to five NFCCGs and won just one SB. And they're about to be (already are?) a train wreck.

At least we're not them.

I don't think salary cap rules really make this feasible, but honest to god they need to trade Aaron Rodgers this offseason to a team that is a great QB away from title contention. Tennessee? San Fran? Trade him to San Fran for Jimmy G and a few picks. That SF team with their talent plus Rodgers is a major, major SB contender, and because he won't play for a ton longer, it sets them up nicely to transition to Lance. Meanwhile, the Pack would be able to rebuild with a legitimate QB in JG.

But again, I don't think the salary cap really makes this possible.
 

EricFeczko

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Exactly.
If there was a point to my mentioning the poll results (I'm honestly not sure there was one), it would be that all the noise across this board about Mac's regression (and inability to rebound from it) would seem to have overshadowed what the majority of those voting actually think ... that the problems are everywhere and go well beyond his performance
Yup, and I say that as someone who picked Mac ( I had trouble choosing and he was first on the list -- I think I switched my vote to BB for funsies though).

I think most of the noise stems from a significant number of Mac defenders in the MacCorkle thread, coupled by a number of Zappe (I don't get it either, the Chicago game should've ended that conversation) defenders, which leads to frustration with the message board posting than specifically with Mac.
 

BigJimEd

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But again, I don't think the salary cap really makes this possible.
Difficult but it is possible.

https://overthecap.com/looking-ahead-to-the-packers-options-with-aaron-rodgers
What Happens if the Packers Trade Aaron Rodgers?

Rodgers does not have a no trade clause in his contract so he could be traded to a team as well. The timing of the option should give the Packers all the way until the end of training camp to move him. The cap charge here would depend on when he was traded. If Rodgers were to be traded prior to June 1st the Packers would take on a $40,313,750 cap hit in 2023. If he was traded after June 1st it would be a $15,833,570 cap hit in 2023 with $24,480,000 due in 2024. This assumes that the Packers did not exercise the option before the trade. If the option is exercised then the trade number spikes to nearly $100 million. There should be no need to exercise the option until the last possible day.

For the team acquiring Rodgers they would be on the hook for the salary for the year. The cap charge would be $59,515,000 if they do not exercise his option and $15.79 million if they were to exercise the option.
 

sezwho

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Yup, and I say that as someone who picked Mac ( I had trouble choosing and he was first on the list -- I think I switched my vote to BB for funsies though).

I think most of the noise stems from a significant number of Mac defenders in the MacCorkle thread, coupled by a number of Zappe (I don't get it either, the Chicago game should've ended that conversation) defenders, which leads to frustration with the message board posting than specifically with Mac.
Yes on the Zapped but I went the other way on the Mac discussion. Meaning I think the noise is from the Mac blamers that maybe miss forest for trees. Guessing my bias is showing?
 

SMU_Sox

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I think those numbers overstate things - they weren't playing like a top 10 offense week-to-week, but when they were good they were amazing (CLE, JAX, one of the Jets games, TEN). But point taken, they were definitely better last year.




I think the OL personnel is pretty different, too. They changed both guards, and while Onwenu has been great, Strange has had rookie struggles. The two larger issues are a) the regression of Wynn (and Justin Herron) and b) the complete lack of depth on OL.

The offense has had its struggles all year but I think the shape of those struggles has changed.
1) Weeks 1 - 3: O moving the ball OK but too many turnovers. Mac only took 4 sacks in those three games.
2) Weeks 4 - 8: QB weirdness hurts the team vs GB and CHI, sandwiched around arguably the two best offensive performances all year, both with Zappe against crappy defenses.
3) Weeks 9 - present: Mac cuts down on the turnovers ... but now the OL is banged up. The first 5-6 weeks saw basically the same OL configuration every game. Then Wynn missed the Chicago game, Andrews missed most of the four games after that, Cannon went on IR, Wynn came back and got hurt again, and Cajuste missed the last game. A team should be able to weather an OL injury or two, but the depth is extremely bad. The guys who've gotten forced into action - Ferentz, Cannon, McDermott - were all street FAs at some point in the last year. Last year they had Karras and Herron as the 6th and 7th OL, guys with decent starting experience. This year it's castoffs and late round rookies that they don't trust to play. I mean, we laugh about Bill Murray's moustache and the fact that he's named Bill Murray, but the fact that they've seen fit to dress him as their 8th OL three times, in his first year converting over from DL, is pretty damning.

I think the OL was disappointing the first 6-7 weeks (especially for a team that wanted to run the ball a lot), but it's only really been this bad the last few, when injuries exposed the complete lack of depth. To me that's a significant change from last year, when you had Karras as your top IOL backup (and then Onwenu later in the season), Herron as T depth, and better health from Wynn and Andrews. Brown has been healthier this year, though there have been a couple games he probably shouldn't have played and wouldn't have played if they had an at-all acceptable alternative. Last night they started their 5th different OT - and their third OT was a street FA. Ferentz spent much of last year on the practice squad and he's now their top IOL backup and has nearly played double the snaps he did in 2021.

I'm not excusing the coaching, I think it's very hard to judge from outside. Patricia and Judge are easy punching bags because they were bad head coaches and don't have traditional qualifications for their current roles. I don't know if the issues we're seeing stem from items in their domains or not. Probably some. But I did want to push back against the idea this is the same group. It's a worse OL with much worse depth and it's predictably suffered tremendously as the injuries have piled up.

Just want to give this a shout out as an excellent post. Run blocking weeks 1-4 was so much better than 5-now. It's really frustrating. And I know the run game is less important but... it would certainly help in the red zone or on 3rd and short.
 

ragnarok725

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Thought experiment...

Which team wins more games?
  • Patriots but Josh Allen instead of Mac Jones
  • Patriots but add Davante Adams to the WR group
  • Patriots but Eagles OL instead of Pats OL
  • Patriots but Josh McDaniels as OC instead of Patricia
  • Patriots but with another hot HC instead of BB - take your pick, Sirianni, McDaniel, etc.
I think the answer to this poll is Mac because Mac is the QB and that's just how the NFL works.
 

BaseballJones

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Thought experiment...

Which team wins more games?
  • Patriots but Josh Allen instead of Mac Jones
  • Patriots but add Davante Adams to the WR group
  • Patriots but Eagles OL instead of Pats OL
  • Patriots but Josh McDaniels as OC instead of Patricia
  • Patriots but with another hot HC instead of BB - take your pick, Sirianni, McDaniel, etc.
I think the answer to this poll is Mac because Mac is the QB and that's just how the NFL works.
Josh Allen and I don't think it's particularly close. The Bills' OL isn't that great, but it didn't hinder Allen last night at all. I'm not convinced that their play calling is anything special, but Allen sure is.

Josh Allen with this Patriots team would make them a wagon, for sure. He's that good.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Josh Allen and I don't think it's particularly close. The Bills' OL isn't that great, but it didn't hinder Allen last night at all. I'm not convinced that their play calling is anything special, but Allen sure is.

Josh Allen with this Patriots team would make them a wagon, for sure. He's that good.
Having a good QB also makes everything else better, but I don't think we have enough to go off of to say that the OC wouldn't screw up even Josh Allen.
 

ManicCompression

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I think the answer to this poll is Mac because Mac is the QB and that's just how the NFL works.
What if Mac was on Miami or San Francisco? I think he'd have a ton of success in those offenses, hitting receivers in space and not having to make multiple reads. When you look back at his time in Alabama, they'd scheme Devonta Smith open and Mac would deliver the ball on target and on time. With the Patriots, he's forced to throw to receivers who get the least amount of separation in the league (this was a Warren Sharp stat that I can't find now). How often do we see receivers schemed open? And when we try to do unconventional plays, like reverses or wide receivers in the flat, it's to... Jacoby Meyers, one of the slowest and least shifty receivers in the NFL.

Last night, the only impressive play came from Marcus Jones, a cornerback. Why? Because if you were to give any of our receivers that screen, it would've been stopped for a loss.

The offense is limited because the only player with a decent mix of skill and athleticism on the team is Rhamondre. I think Mac could have the best OL in the league and it wouldn't matter because these receivers typically can't get open anyway. That's mostly the fault of the GM, who's busted on receiver in the draft and free agency for years now. Sure, Patricia makes incredibly head scratching decisions and the offense seems unprepared every week, but it would take Andy Reid to make a gourmet meal out of the Spam that the offensive coaching staff has to work with.
 

BaseballJones

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Average separation (per: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#average-separation ):


Henry: 3.7 yds (#10 on the entire list)

Tyreek Hill: 3.5 yds
Nelson Agholor: 3.4 yds
Christian Kirk: 3.3 yds - Kirk has 56 rec, 725 yds, and 7 td this year

Cooper Kupp: 3.2 yds
Justin Jefferson: 3.2 yds
Amon St. Brown: 3.2 yds
Jakobi Meyers: 3.1 yds
DeVonta Smith: 2.9 yds

Parker: 1.5 yds

Here's one that's interesting. Compare Meyers to St. Brown.

Avg. Cushion:
- St. Brown: 6.6 yds
- Meyers: 5.3 yds

Avg. Air Yards per Attempt:
- St. Brown: 6.2 yds
- Meyers: 9.7 yds

Avg. Separation:
- St. Brown: 3.2 yds
- Meyers: 3.1 yds

So CBs are backing a yard and a half further off St. Brown than they are Meyers. Meyers is running, on average, deeper patterns than St. Brown, yet getting essentially the same amount of separation (3.6 inches less) as St. Brown.

How does that translate to actual on-field production?

- St. Brown: 65 rec, 73.9% catch rate, 716 yds, 11.0 ypc
- Meyers: 50 rec, 74.6% catch rate, 593 yds, 11.9 ypc

What's the real difference between St. Brown and Meyers? St. Brown seems much more electric, doesn't he? Seems a class above Meyers.

YAC/reception:
- St. Brown: 5.4 yds
- Meyers: 3.3 yds

So St. Brown does more with it once he gets it, but he's getting it shallower and ending up with fewer overall yards per catch than Meyers.
 

8slim

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Thought experiment...

Which team wins more games?
  • Patriots but Josh Allen instead of Mac Jones
  • Patriots but add Davante Adams to the WR group
  • Patriots but Eagles OL instead of Pats OL
  • Patriots but Josh McDaniels as OC instead of Patricia
  • Patriots but with another hot HC instead of BB - take your pick, Sirianni, McDaniel, etc.
I think the answer to this poll is Mac because Mac is the QB and that's just how the NFL works.
Is it that revealing that the Pats would be better if they had the best QB in the league? I mean, the Eagles would be better with Josh Allen too.
 

BaseballJones

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I'm proven wrong lol - great stat pulls. Definitely a reframing of the issue for me.
I don't know how accurate that data is, but it's all I could find. I was surprised to see Hill basically at the same amount of separation as Agholor. Seems like that guy is always wide open. BUT....what might be true is that guys like Hill often get double teamed, so while he may not get more separation than Agholor, it often takes TWO defenders to shut him off, which obviously frees others up and makes that offense more dangerous.
 

ragnarok725

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Is it that revealing that the Pats would be better if they had the best QB in the league? I mean, the Eagles would be better with Josh Allen too.
The question is who represents the single biggest issue with the offense. I think the fact that replacing the QB would improve the team the most out of all the options is revealing, yes.
 

heavyde050

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The question is who represents the single biggest issue with the offense. I think the fact that replacing the QB would improve the team the most out of all the options is revealing, yes.
I thought in the example provided it was replacing Mac with Allen - yeah that would be the biggest difference. That isn't realistic. If the choice was say Zappe for Mac or getting rid of Patricia for a more experienced OC - I am not sure the QB replacement would be the best.
Also, if another choice was to get rid of Mac for a new QB next year or sign a LT or RT, again I am not sure which would move the needle the most.
 

ragnarok725

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I thought in the example provided it was replacing Mac with Allen - yeah that would be the biggest difference. That isn't realistic. If the choice was say Zappe for Mac or getting rid of Patricia for a more experienced OC - I am not sure the QB replacement would be the best.
Also, if another choice was to get rid of Mac for a new QB next year or sign a LT or RT, again I am not sure which would move the needle the most.
The question isn’t how would you fix the offense, the question is who is the biggest issue in the offense.

It’s boring, but QB is just the most important thing by so much. It’s nearly impossible to have any sort of sustained success in the NFL without a truly elite QB. Mac is not and will never be that guy. Trying to win with an average QB gives you no margin for error anywhere else on your team. And Mac is fairly far below average at the moment.

Folks seem to desperate to grade Mac on some kind of curve, probably because the alternative is a few years in the wilderness. But I think that’s the reality.
 

heavyde050

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The question isn’t how would you fix the offense, the question is who is the biggest issue in the offense.

It’s boring, but QB is just the most important thing by so much. It’s nearly impossible to have any sort of sustained success in the NFL without a truly elite QB. Mac is not and will never be that guy. Trying to win with an average QB gives you no margin for error anywhere else on your team. And Mac is fairly far below average at the moment.

Folks seem to desperate to grade Mac on some kind of curve, probably because the alternative is a few years in the wilderness. But I think that’s the reality.
That makes a lot more sense. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, QB is the most impactful position.
 

stp

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I voted Patricia, but I think it's equally Belichick's fault for putting him and Judge in charge of the Offense. I may be "desperate to grade Mac on some kind of curve", but I think most of us thought Mac showed promise last year. This year Mac and the entire offense have been awful, and the biggest change is the coaching (McD leaving and being replaced by Patricia & Judge).

Edited to add: I miss Scar.
 

jk333

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It’s always the QB.

I wasn’t giving Darnold extra credit for having Gase as OC and let’s see what people think of Daboll and Daniel Jones at the end of this season.
 

Cellar-Door

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As I type this, 175 votes have been registered ... and 167 have cited reasons other than the quarterback.
And, yet, the board's most-vehement discussions center on how much of a disaster Mac Jones has been.
I would guess if we did this poll a few weeks ago a lot more O-line votes would go to Jones, they've really fallen apart.

A big thing though is... the discussions about Mac are because QB is the most important long term issue, good QBs are hard to find, in a way O-line isn't.You can overhaul this line in the offseason, QB... not so much.

Also.. a good amount of wishful thinking too all over the board. If Patricia is the worst OCoordinator of all time it means that next year could be better just by replacing him... if Mac is a bad QB, we're in the position a lot of teams are and just adrift until we find a QB, also... Coaching is way harder to quantify for people than anything else, we heard for years how McDaniels wasn't that good or he was screwing up (while everyone in the league consistently said he was one of the best in the league, and we put up great numbers and won titles).
 

BaseballJones

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Good points, C-D. I think it's one reason they really need to work hard to build the team around Mac - because finding the "right" QB is a really, really hard task. The league's history is littered with teams who wandered in the wilderness for years or decades because they couldn't get the "right" QB.

Fix the things that are relatively easy to fix:

- OL. Draft and acquire solid veterans. That HAS to be shored up.
- Special teams. They matter. Like, for real. Punter has to be fixed, and maybe they need to find their next kicker too.
- S. They need the DMac replacement on the roster next year, even if DMac sticks around for one more season after this. Get a young stud free safety to pair with Dugger.
- Coaches. It really shouldn't be that difficult for BB to find the right guys to coach this team. Unless this is some sort of blind spot for him, which I doubt.

Then move on to more challenging improvements:

- WR. Not easy to come by a true #1 receiver, but there must be an effort made. It's not the top priority, but it should definitely be pursued.
- QB. Either improvement by Mac or finding a new guy.

The last one is most important, but it's also the hardest. You gotta do the easy fixes first, since they're easy, and if you do those, your team will automatically be better, while you try to address the harder fixes.
 

Cellar-Door

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Good points, C-D. I think it's one reason they really need to work hard to build the team around Mac - because finding the "right" QB is a really, really hard task. The league's history is littered with teams who wandered in the wilderness for years or decades because they couldn't get the "right" QB.

Fix the things that are relatively easy to fix:

- OL. Draft and acquire solid veterans. That HAS to be shored up.
- Special teams. They matter. Like, for real. Punter has to be fixed, and maybe they need to find their next kicker too.
- S. They need the DMac replacement on the roster next year, even if DMac sticks around for one more season after this. Get a young stud free safety to pair with Dugger.
- Coaches. It really shouldn't be that difficult for BB to find the right guys to coach this team. Unless this is some sort of blind spot for him, which I doubt.

Then move on to more challenging improvements:

- WR. Not easy to come by a true #1 receiver, but there must be an effort made. It's not the top priority, but it should definitely be pursued.
- QB. Either improvement by Mac or finding a new guy.

The last one is most important, but it's also the hardest. You gotta do the easy fixes first, since they're easy, and if you do those, your team will automatically be better, while you try to address the harder fixes.
I think you have to do the top half no matter what, but I would also say, because of how the QB situations work in the NFL, you also should always be looking for your QB until you have him. So if they think they can get a better QB than Mac (long term) in the draft, they should. If they think they can get an elite QB in trade or FA for a price they are willing to pay they should. The Eagles went to the playoffs 3 straight years with Wentz... still drafted Hurts, The Cardinals moved on from a QB drafted top 10 after 1 year, etc.

I'd say the takeaway from this year more than anything should be that nobody is safe, especially on offense, and if the opportunity to improve arises you take it.
 

BaseballJones

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I think you have to do the top half no matter what, but I would also say, because of how the QB situations work in the NFL, you also should always be looking for your QB until you have him. So if they think they can get a better QB than Mac (long term) in the draft, they should. If they think they can get an elite QB in trade or FA for a price they are willing to pay they should. The Eagles went to the playoffs 3 straight years with Wentz... still drafted Hurts, The Cardinals moved on from a QB drafted top 10 after 1 year, etc.

I'd say the takeaway from this year more than anything should be that nobody is safe, especially on offense, and if the opportunity to improve arises you take it.
Yes, I'd agree with that.

Would be fascinating to end up in the 8 win range and draft like #15-18 again. If Hendon Hooker is available, would the Pats take him? Another high quality SEC prospect, he's put up terrific numbers this year:

229-329 (69.6%), 3,135 yds, 9.5 y/a, 27 td, 2 int, 430 rush yds

This comes on the heels of a stellar 2021 season:

206-303 (68.0%), 2,945 yds, 9.7 y/a, 31 td, 3 int, 616 rush yds

Terrific athlete, accurate arm, not a totally finished product obviously, but has all the tools. Plus excellent size at 6'4", 218, much better arm than Mac. He's like the #5 QB prospect in this draft, so I'm thinking he might end up basically where the Pats would be picking.


In some ways taking a guy like this would make all the sense in the world. Trade Mac and give this kid the keys, or let them compete for the job. BUT....it means using your first round pick (and maybe more if you need to trade up for him) on a QB when you're already going to be just in year 3 of the last first round QB you took in Mac Jones, and that first rounder could be used to get a stud OT or a stud WR or a punter from Allegheny College of Arts if BB wants.
 
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Dotrat

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It seems to me that the jury is still out on Mac--and I confess I'm rooting for him to succeed. That said, even with multiple departures on the offensive coaching staff and the (IMHO) half-assed attempt at installing a new offensive scheme, he simply doesn't look like a confident, competent player. He likely still can be--given the right changes to the current staff, scheme, and personnel.

But do BB & Co. want a potentially better version of Kurt Cousins or Jimmy G (I'm adding a presumable edge over them for Mac because I'm hopeful Belichick makes smart decisions in overhauling the coaching staff--though there are no guarantees there)?
If so, how high are they willing to go on the second contract, knowing that they're going to have to pay other offensive skill players top dollar (or close to it) in order to maximize Mac's skill set?

I remember back in the late '90s hearing Will McDonough say that the NFL always has several poor to mediocre teams because in any given season there are no more than 8-12 QBs playing at a high or elite level. This seems sound to me. If, like me, you buy into this argument, the question is, if Mac is roughly 70-80% of that level (or possibly better), is he worth investing in for the long haul? I don't pretend to have an answer but wanted to point out that scrapping Mac and drafting/trading/signing someone new carries far more risk than many of us in this thread seem to want to acknowledge.

In any case, however, Matt Patricia delenda est. (Or whatever the Latin verb of 'must be fired' is. ;) )
 

8slim

has trust issues
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The question is who represents the single biggest issue with the offense. I think the fact that replacing the QB would improve the team the most out of all the options is revealing, yes.
Of course replacing the Mac with the best QB in the league would help. Replacing Algholor with Diggs would also help, that doesn’t mean he’s the biggest problem.

Personally I said the OL because even mediocre QBs can look competent behind a first rate line. Put any league average QB behind our current dumpster fire and they’ll struggle.
 

rymflaherty

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Can take this for whatever it’s worth, but as a fan of a rival team, and the person that was on here pretty much guaranteeing the Dolphins would win by double digits week 1, the reasons (basically 1a and 1b) I was so confident were the Pats offensive coordinator situation, and the fact that coming into the season, I would have taken any teams skill group over what the Patriots have.
As the season winds down, I don’t feel much differently,
 

Salem's Lot

Andy Moog! Andy God Damn Moog!
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Jul 15, 2005
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Belichick calls all of the shots for the football operations.

The quarterback sucks, who drafted him?
The assistant coaches suck, who put them in that position?
The drafting sucks, who hired the scouting staff and ultimately makes the pick?
The player development program sucks, who oversees player development?

The Buck stops with Bill. If this team sucks, it’s 100% Bill Belichick’s fault.
 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
400
You're making a technical point, and I don't think it's a fair one. Everything you mention is Belichick's responsibility, but saying it's his fault is a bridge too far. Besides, it's not a very useful way of looking at the problem. I propose answering the question by imagining we could replace any of the five items in the poll with a top 5 version of that item.

For example, we might replace (these are proxies; I don't know shit):
  1. Mac with Jalen Hurts
  2. Our O line with Cleveland's
  3. Patricia with Eric Bieniemy
  4. Our skill position players with the Bengals'
  5. Bill the GM with Mickey Loomis
Which swap does the most for our offense? Well, I'd say our O line, when healthy, is pretty close to average. I don't see how Bienemy succeeds with this group. Chase, Higgins, and Mixon would make us better I guess, but we'd still have problem with Mac at the trigger. And as to evaluating Bill versus Loomis, that's above my pay grade.

For me it comes down to the QB position. Hurts makes the O line and skilled players better, and he offers Matty P more versatility. I say this as a guy who loved the Mac pick, was super high on him coming into this season, and badly wants him and the Pats to succeed. At this point, I just don't think he has the physical skills combat what NFL defenses are doing to him.

Edit: missing words.
 
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Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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You're making a technical point, and I don't think it's a fair one. Everything you mention is Belichick's responsibility, but saying it's his fault is a bridge too far. Besides, it's not a very useful way of looking at the problem. I propose answering the question by imagining we could replace any of the five items in the poll with a top 5 version of that item.

For example, we might replace (these are proxies; I don't know shit):
  1. Mac with Jalen Hurts
  2. Our O line with Cleveland's
  3. Patricia with Eric Bieniemy
  4. Our skill position players with the Bengals'
  5. Bill the GM with Mickey Loomis
Which swap does the most for our offense? Well, I'd say our O line, when healthy, is pretty close to average. I don't see how Bienemy succeeds with this group. Chase, Higgins, and Mixon would make us better I guess, but we'd still have problem with Mac at the trigger. And as to evaluating Bill versus Loomis, that's above my pay grade.

For me it comes down to the QB position. Hurts makes the O line and skilled players better, and he offers Matty P more versatility. I say this a guy who loved the Mac pick, was super high on him coming into this season, and badly wants him and the Pats to succeed. At this point, I just don't think he has the physical skills combat what NFL defenses are doing to him.
Of those, #2. On the other hand if for #1 you said Josh Allen I might take #1 (but I'm not as big a Hurts fan as others.

The more interesting one to me is... if you replaced Mac with Josh Fields how much better are we? Because CHI has a bad line, Chicago has worse passcatchers than us, and Fields starting in the game against our defense has changed the entire feel around their season just because he can run. They were calling to fire the terrible O-coordinator there too. QBs who are run/pass versatile are a huge advantage for teams without elite talent elsewhere.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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You're making a technical point, and I don't think it's a fair one.
This is of course true. The buck ultimately stops with him (actually, with Robert Kraft, since he hired Belichick and gave him total control over the team, if we want to be real about it). But if he does everything right, a player who is otherwise very good may still make a terrible mistake. Is such a thing Belichick's FAULT? Of course not. Otherwise, we should give 100% of the credit for the Pats' incredible 20 year run to Belichick and none to Brady. If we give any credit to Brady, that means that the players bear some responsibility if things go south.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Section15Box113

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I went with Patricia, since he calls the plays *and* coaches the OL.

Putting him in both roles always felt like an odd decision (yes, feel free to point to BB there), but also something of a placeholder. Wondered at the time if there was another candidate that fell through at the last minute, too late to backfill from elsewhere. There was a ton of BOB smoke before it came out that he felt he needed to honor his commitment to Saban.

But Patricia’s decisionmaking and inability/unwillingness to adjust has been bad. Plenty of issues to point to. Calling jet sweeps (or something else fancy) for a loss of 8 in the red zone. Brutal decision that puts the offense (and Mac) in a hole. Dialing up a lot of slow-developing routes when the OL is a sieve. Ugh. Watching (or relying on?) Brown to execute cut blocks at critical moments in back to back games. The coach needs to address that and ensure Brown is not an error repeater. And that’s just three examples off the top of my head.

So fingers crossed on BOB, or someone like him, this off-season. And an experienced OL coach.
 
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Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
400
QBs who are run/pass versatile are a huge advantage for teams without elite talent elsewhere.
A very good point, though I have no confidence Patricia wouldn't completely botch an offense run by Fields.

This exercise has made clear the perfect storm of ineptitude the Pats' offense has become. I'm not sure a Hurts, Burrow or Herbert at QB -- i.e., a very good but not All Pro player -- does much with this supporting cast. Neither does Bieniemy or even a Matt Lafleur. Maybe C-D is right about an improved O line. We've got $50M+ to spend in 2023. Where does it go? OT, WR, CB, S?
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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He's been talked about, and may not necessarily be the "biggest" issue, but let's not forget Joe Judge. I never wanted him within 10,000 miles of this team.

I think he's an awkward/bad communicator, and has limited knowledge of offense. Every single press conference he had last year with the Giants was cringe-worthy, including but not limited to that embarrassing one at the end of the year that went viral. Patricia's taking all the heat, but this dude needs some of it. What's he coaching? Offensive line? Quarterbacks? Because those two units are struggling. Coincidence that the Giants are better w/o him?

FWIW, Curran had a segment on the Rich Eisen show, and said it's notable that Mac is much more effusive in his praise of Patricia vs Judge.
 

sezwho

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He's been talked about, and may not necessarily be the "biggest" issue, but let's not forget Joe Judge. I never wanted him within 10,000 miles of this team.

I think he's an awkward/bad communicator, and has limited knowledge of offense. Every single press conference he had last year with the Giants was cringe-worthy, including but not limited to that embarrassing one at the end of the year that went viral. Patricia's taking all the heat, but this dude needs some of it. What's he coaching? Offensive line? Quarterbacks? Because those two units are struggling. Coincidence that the Giants are better w/o him?

FWIW, Curran had a segment on the Rich Eisen show, and said it's notable that Mac is much more effusive in his praise of Patricia vs Judge.
Good point, Judge is the invisible man here. He’s also the one Bill on some level most needs to rehab.

The Mora family, for whom Bill has great affection, asked and he recommended that train wreck based on special teams performance. As I’ve occasionally mentioned I married a hardcore giants fan (like grew up going to camp) so watch more than my share and yes they are better off rid of him.
 

Granite Sox

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That would be great. I wonder why BOB would jump at this point and not just do another year or two at Bama though.

Having someone that has experience calling games in the NFL is an obvious step in the right direction.
One reason to jump at this point is that Bryce Young will be coming out, so better to leave with a Heisman Trophy winner on your resume than to try and break in a successor with unknown potential.

BOB is also supposedly a favorite of Kraft Pere and Fils; even if they also like Patricia, the rationale for BOB as OC (as opposed to Patricia) is fairly obvious. Plus you introduce another familiar face to the Belichick succession discussion (personally, I think BOB would clean out the coaching staff, especially Patricia and the Belichick boys if he was anointed as an eventual successor. )

Lastly, according to Finebaum BOB isn’t exactly popular with the fan base/alums/boosters at the moment as Bama neither qualified for the CFP nor won the SEC. On an interview on T&R last week, Finebaum said, “Alabama fans say the Patriots can have him!”