I didn't consider worrying about Pomeranz...I was quite content being worried about Wright and EdRo, both of whom I consider risks for further injury right now.
The Bullpen Thread
- Thread starter ifmanis5
- Start date
Minor league season goes until 9/5, and Salem will be playing post-season games. So there should be opportunity for Koji to get some rehab appearances.
Rob Bradford @bradfo 3m3 minutes ago
Farrell talking which starter might go to the bullpen on @WEEI: 'On paper it looks like Clay by default'
So it seems Clay to the BP, hopefully used in high leverage innings.
Farrell talking which starter might go to the bullpen on @WEEI: 'On paper it looks like Clay by default'
So it seems Clay to the BP, hopefully used in high leverage innings.
I dunno, whenever someone says "On paper X by default," it always sounds to me like there's a "but" coming. They could send Rodriguez down for one rehab start then call him up and be in a part of the schedule where a six man rotation doesn't look incredibly stupid.
Or they could just stick Buch in the bullpen because the bullpen needs a ton of help as soon as possible.
Kimbrel is. Ziegler usually is. Clay actually might be. And that's about it.
If Kimbrel, Zeigler, Clay and Kelly can all be consistent and solid then we will be in decent shape. The first two seem like decent bets, the other two are wild cards, although Clay has pitched very well recently.
They may just be looking for more consistency from him before the recall. With the crap we are throwing out now, it may be time.
agreed...as an original member re-joining i figure i had to say something
They have no one with options on the major league roster now. I'm cool with thanking Tazawa for his service and cutting him loose but they must not be.
Pure speculation.... but Kelly should have been up weeks ago considering how terrible the bullpen has been and how seemingly well he's done in AAA. I'm wondering if he pissed someone off when he got demoted. It's the only explanation I can think of
IMO it's past time if they look at the level of consistency that they are currently getting out of the pen. How many games are they going to roll the dice with what they have out there? Remind me again of the definition of insanity? I'm not one to blame Farrell for everything that goes wrong on this team. I understand that there is little reason to have faith in some of these guys out of the pen and as someone said in the game thread that the bullpen is bad therefore his decisions will always be bad. But there are times when his decisions can be less bad aren't there? I get that there are certain guys that he wants to start with clean innings, but in his desire to do so there are times when he's left the starter in 1,2 or 3 batters to many. It seems to me that Farrell has fallen into a trap where the bullpen seems to manage him rather than him managing the bullpen if that makes any sense at all.
Pete Abe was just on T&R (which is an aborion show in Johnston and Flynn but I digress) when talking about the bullpen he said he doesn't think Buchholz will be given high-lev situations because he can go multiple innings. Said Ziegler stays in the 8th and Ross Jr in the 7th.
Regarding Kelly he said he thinks the organization just looks at his AAA success as a lack of talented hitters, and he's taking advantage of that....Not necessarily he's pitching well. Said Kelly showed in the past here and in StL that he's good in AAA but it didn't translate
Regarding Kelly he said he thinks the organization just looks at his AAA success as a lack of talented hitters, and he's taking advantage of that....Not necessarily he's pitching well. Said Kelly showed in the past here and in StL that he's good in AAA but it didn't translate
Huge if, but IF this is the case then considering where the Sox sit in the standings and considering their #1 need,, someone else needs to be demoted or fired if they are willing to potentially lose games out of principle.
For the love of God, Kelly can only face the guys he's pitching against. I get maybe they might not be seeing something in his mechanics that they might like to see, but right now the pen is staffed with a number of guys whose stuff isn't translating at this level.
There is another explanation. His AAA success could be based on the fact that AAA hitters are swinging at pitches out of the strike zone. At least that has *some* possible basis in reality, since Kelly has never really been able to consistently throw strikes. That's an issue that only someone who has seen him pitch can answer.
The chances of this are probably as close to zero as possible. (Or there is as close to zero as possible evidence that its true. In other words, it's made up. "If the Sox are stupid stupid-heads, then they are stupid stupid-heads." Yes, this is true.)
Given the current state of the pen, if the front office thought Kelly had the slightest chance of being effective, he'd have been here weeks ago, no?
Who cares if he's still in the organization? (other than people clamoring for him). Is he blocking someone? Either they think they can straighten him out, or they'll deal with it later.
I'm sure there are different opinions. Kelly seems to go every 3rd day, no matter the game situation. He sometimes goes more than one inning, but he's always in the 9th inning. The regular workload seems to be something deliberate - either injury-avoidence or deliberate transitioning.
If he's throwing strikes he should be up. 32 games left. 6 against TOR, 7 against BAL.
http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?sid=t533&player_id=523260#/career/R/pitching/2016/ALL
I get that Kelly is doing well in AAA and all (which he absolutely should be with his stuff at his age), and I think he's the next man up, but I think he's been buried for a reason we're not privy to (scouting, attitude perhaps as suggested above)
Heath Hembree, the only obvious choice before he actually was to be sent down (though Barnes is borderline now), hasn't really earned a demotion below Kelly on the depth chart. Hembree, not being able to get lefties out is better than not being able to get anyone out which is pretty much the only thing Kelly has demonstrated.
Heath Hembree, the only obvious choice before he actually was to be sent down (though Barnes is borderline now), hasn't really earned a demotion below Kelly on the depth chart. Hembree, not being able to get lefties out is better than not being able to get anyone out which is pretty much the only thing Kelly has demonstrated.
Another factor to consider in the off-season when the front office evaluates the job performance of Farrell and Willis.
That a career starter can't handle bouncing back from a multiple inning outing even after being given 3 days off following that outing?
Jesus, in the 7 appearances following that outing Barnes gave up 3 hits and 1 ER in 6.2 IP with a 7/1 K-ratio.
It's very possible that there's a non-performance reason Kelly is still in AAA - one of which being that the club just wants to wait till the rosters expand.
That said, we're two behind TOR. We have no lights-out SP to lock the club into post season play through the single elimination WC game. And either way, gasping up to the finish line is going to handicap them in the post-season.
The club really needs to look at this as a 30 day season going forward, and Farrell has pretty much used Tazawa and Abad only in mop-up roles for the past 10 days.
As I look back at the game logs, I think I just got my mind stuck on his very next game -- where he got hit pretty hard -- and the narrative I created for myself just stuck. I remember him saying after the game that he was pretty gassed.
The game logs tell the story. You are correct. This is likely just a slump by a guy who is finally having MLB success and now has to adjust to the adjustments made against him.
I dunno. Kelly has an ERA close to 8 and in his final appearance in a tight game couldn't find the strike zone and when he did on that night in Anaheim his location was still off while his fastball was straight. I don't see any reason to believe he's not in Boston based solely on performance.
It certainly could be both/either. If we had good data about what his AAA games looked like, as opposed to just the good results, we could make a better guess. We've all seen Kelly oscillate between amazing and awful, both for extended periods. Some of those runs may have to do with nagging injuries or getting his mechanics off or just enjoying a string of good luck. However, for armchair planning purposes, I'm comfortable considering Kelly as one of those pitchers who can run off a good/bad string with little warning. If Good Kelly is percolating in AAA, I'd have little or no regret DFAing Abad or DLing Taz to try him out at this point. ('Course, Kelly may just implode, even if he is legitimately enjoying an excellent AAA run.)
Before last night, Kelly hadn't walked a batter since July 20, a stretch of 8 appearances and 10 IP. During the same time, he's given up 8 hits. It's time to bring him up, unless there is something substantial going on behind the scenes.
IMHO, it appears that Robby Scott is also getting prepared for a transition to the ML bullpen. After a season of mostly 2-3 IP-appearances, his last 3 have all been under 2 IP. More importantly, he's got a WHIP of 0.88 over 77 IP on the season and 72 SO compared to 13 BB.
IMHO, it appears that Robby Scott is also getting prepared for a transition to the ML bullpen. After a season of mostly 2-3 IP-appearances, his last 3 have all been under 2 IP. More importantly, he's got a WHIP of 0.88 over 77 IP on the season and 72 SO compared to 13 BB.
Hopefully roster expansion and return from injury sees the club adding Koji, Kelly, Owens, and one if not both of Robby Scott and Kyle Martin added to the roster. The club has enough 60 day DL exemptions to pretty well tailor the bullpen around whoever is throwing best down the stretch (4 60 day DL stints that won't come due and then Brandon Workman, who is a slightly hang up in his rehab away from having his DL stint extend beyond the end of the regular season). Get as much pitching talent in the pool as possible and see what happens.
I'd argue that the Red Sox, thanks to a now pretty solid top 4 starters, are probably better equipped for a play-in WC game than most, as the drop in quality from starter #1 to starters #2-#4 isn't going to win or lose the proceeding playoff series. At the same time as it stands right now the WC play-in game is going to be held in Fenway, where the Sox' lineup really shines.
You could almost make an argument for having Pomeranz pitch the play-in game as he's the most likely of the top four starters to transition to the bullpen successfully entering a playoff series, and as a lefty directly addresses the biggest weakness in the 'pen (setup quality LHP). How much better would the 'pen look if it was:
CL - Kimbrel
RH SU - Ziegler
LH SU - Pomeranz
RH 6th/7th inning - Koji
LH 6th/7th inning - Ross
Buchholz
one of EdRo/Barnes/Kelly/Hembree/Owens, etc.
Buchholz gives good multi-innings coverage, Barnes could slip into a mid-innings/second multi-inning man role, Ross could be used as a true LOOGY if desired, and if a rested Koji is an approximation of what he's done when not overworked or hurt previously you have a fire extinguisher for close and late without dipping into a pretty damn good 7th/8th/9th hierarchy.
The real problem with the 'pen here is a lack of depth, something moving into the playoffs should actually help alleviate as the bullpen gets an extra quality pitcher pushed into it, the potential return of Koji, and the artificially stretched playoff schedule letting the same handful of guys carry most of the workload without over-taxation.
There aren't many truly lights-out SPs in the AL East playoff picture period. Both Porcello and Wright (at least pre-injury) were reasonable Cy Young contenders this year and over the last few weeks Price has been pitching substantially better.
I'd argue that the Red Sox, thanks to a now pretty solid top 4 starters, are probably better equipped for a play-in WC game than most, as the drop in quality from starter #1 to starters #2-#4 isn't going to win or lose the proceeding playoff series. At the same time as it stands right now the WC play-in game is going to be held in Fenway, where the Sox' lineup really shines.
You could almost make an argument for having Pomeranz pitch the play-in game as he's the most likely of the top four starters to transition to the bullpen successfully entering a playoff series, and as a lefty directly addresses the biggest weakness in the 'pen (setup quality LHP). How much better would the 'pen look if it was:
CL - Kimbrel
RH SU - Ziegler
LH SU - Pomeranz
RH 6th/7th inning - Koji
LH 6th/7th inning - Ross
Buchholz
one of EdRo/Barnes/Kelly/Hembree/Owens, etc.
Buchholz gives good multi-innings coverage, Barnes could slip into a mid-innings/second multi-inning man role, Ross could be used as a true LOOGY if desired, and if a rested Koji is an approximation of what he's done when not overworked or hurt previously you have a fire extinguisher for close and late without dipping into a pretty damn good 7th/8th/9th hierarchy.
The real problem with the 'pen here is a lack of depth, something moving into the playoffs should actually help alleviate as the bullpen gets an extra quality pitcher pushed into it, the potential return of Koji, and the artificially stretched playoff schedule letting the same handful of guys carry most of the workload without over-taxation.
Both of those are so Pete-stupid they make my blood boil. If Buchholz isn't being groomed for the 8th inning but rather staying in long relief, WTF did he pitch the 8th inning in a blowout for instead of starting the 6th with a 2 run lead last night and hopefully pitching the 6th and 7th to get to Ziegker/Kimbrell
Kelly has never been this dominant in AAA. Ever.
excellent point--isn't it worth at least trying Clay in high leverage situations now? that seems like a higher priority than having someone available for multiple innings (though somethings of course the 2 can overlap--as they could have last night if Clay had started the 6th inning)
as for Kelly, his numbers do look great in AAA...I realize that could be meaningless, but it is intriguing. I defer to people who are actually seeing him pitch, but the numbers are impressive.
It does seem odd that Kelly is trapped in AAA while the major league BP flails and fails... But the question of what Kelly's gaudy numbers as an RP in AAA really mean is legit. Heath Hembree, who is a decent reliever but more a part of the problem than a solution, has similar & perhaps even more dominant AAA numbers than Kelly this year.
If Buch's role in the BP is not hi-lev, (& preferably multi-inning) set-up guy... He should probably be a starter ahead of the currently injured/enigmatic E-Rod, and/or Wright... But probably necessity will call him back to that role anyhow.
[just noticed that others are dismayed at the seeming mop-up role for Clay, too... they are quicker posters!]
If Buch's role in the BP is not hi-lev, (& preferably multi-inning) set-up guy... He should probably be a starter ahead of the currently injured/enigmatic E-Rod, and/or Wright... But probably necessity will call him back to that role anyhow.
[just noticed that others are dismayed at the seeming mop-up role for Clay, too... they are quicker posters!]
Well, we have what we have - the point is to use it maximally, even if it's not traditional (so long as such use isn't counterproductive and has hidden costs.)
So, I'm not saying we need a lights out SP for the WC scenario. If we did we'd use them, dropping that hypothetical starter to one game in the first series.
Since we don't, one of our defacto better SP will start. Since the bullpen is weak, we'll either use the best pitchers in it, or perhaps use another SP in case the first SP falters early on, or tires in the 5th. (I mean, there's no point in preserving the rest of your starting rotation if the season is over.)
In terms of other players coming back, is Koji retiring this year? If so, he'd likely make a final run at a ring, no matter the long term damage to his arm.
It's worth noting that E-Rod/Wright went a combined 11.1 innings, giving up 10 runs with an ugly 2/7 K/BB in their first two starts back.
While I generally agree that PA talks without critically thinking most times, it would not be shocking if the Sox are holding Buchholz back from back-to-back or high-lev innings because there is some concern they need him back in the rotation. As I mentioned in another thread (or possibly this one), if the Sox go full-on "Buchholz in the bullpen," it'll be tough to stretch him back out again (and possibly unwise from a production standpoint) if a SP goes down/sucks.
I agree with this, and looking ahead, I think the interesting question is how much rope do you give Rodriguez and Wright. If EdRo and/or Wright don't have good starts their next couple of times thru, do you try to reinsert Clay then? Barring changes, Wright is due to pitch on 8/31 against the Rays (day game) and 9/6 against the Mariners, while EdRo is lined up for 9/3 against the A's and 9/9 against the Jays. Probably looking at 4 more turns thru the rotation after that point.
So you're saying Farrell may be holding back resources for the future. To me, that's bad because it keeps him from playing the hot hand. Clay seems to be in the middle of a lot of this. He's damn good right now, so use him. In the meanwhile, games are being kicked away that might have been won because of this kind of management style. Many more kicked away games could cost the playoffs. Some cliches:
Strike while the iron is hot.
A bird in the hand...
Maybe there are things we don't know, like Farrell has reason to think that Clay's next injury could be right around the corner. Well, feeling around here was to get anything
they could at the deadline for him, so, his being good again is like playing with house money. Use him in games right now where he could nail it down instead of obviously inconsistent pitchers like Barnes. Sure, you can't use him in every game, but the Yankee game when he threw only 6 or 7 pitches and last night were winnable games if Clay got a chance to do more.
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Scott Lauber ESPN Staff Writer
Depending on what happens in bullpen sessions Wednesday and Saturday, Koji Uehara could be reinstated from the disabled list by early next week, according to Red Sox manager John Farrell. Uehara hasn't pitched since July 19 because of a strained right pectoral muscle.
Depending on what happens in bullpen sessions Wednesday and Saturday, Koji Uehara could be reinstated from the disabled list by early next week, according to Red Sox manager John Farrell. Uehara hasn't pitched since July 19 because of a strained right pectoral muscle.