The Catcher Conundrum

LoLsapien

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Catch-all thread for catchers in the Red Sox system. Catching depth in the Sox system was arguably limited even prior to trading Kyle Teel. There are currently no Sox catching prospects in the Sox top-ten or league-wide top 100 lists. The system depth chart (according to milb.com on 1/13/25) now looks like:

MLB: Wong*, Narvaez*
AAA: Seby Zavala, Blake Sabol*
AA: Nathan Hickey, Ronald Rosario, Matt Donlan
A+: Enderso Lira, Juan Montero, Hudson White
A: Brooks Brannon, Johanfran Garcia, Andrew Mussett, Diego Vilario.

* = 40-man

How are we feeling about this? Are there some hidden gems here? Should the Sox aggressively try to upgrade this position at any or all levels?
 
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oumbi

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The highest ranked catcher on Sox Pospects is at #15, Johanfran Garcia, who is at Salem and a mere 20 years old. So he probably is at least a couple of years away from the majors.

SP projects him as a "bat-first reserve" meaning his offense is ahead of his defense, but his defense seems to be average, not bad. His 2024 slash line in Salem was 0.385 / 0.467 / 0.596, OPS = 1.063. But this was only for 14 games.

On defense, SP writes:
Field: Soft hands and moves well behind the plate given his build. Framing is average and does a good job getting down and blocking balls in the dirt. Needs to maintain current athleticism in order to stick behind the plate. Potential average defender.

Arm: Above-average arm strength. Potential to be a major asset behind the plate.


Oh, and on the bases he is slower than molasses in January.

https://www.soxprospects.com/players/garcia-johanfran.htm
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I am curious about how the nature of catching prospects and particularly their defensive abilities changes in a hypothetical robot ump world. At a certain point framing may become irrelevant or at least less relevant, which could have some trickle down effects. For example if you know you don't have to frame, maybe you can be a beat quicker to blocking that off-speed pitch in the dirt because you didn't need to hang around for that beat in case the pitch was going to land on or just off the corner of the plate as intended. Or you can set farther outside, etc. I do wonder if and how teams may be thinking ahead with this in mind.

That said, there is already a lot that is very difficult or nebulous to rate in the minors, especially the lower levels, namely how one works with a pitching staff, prepares for opposing hitters with that day's starter, etc. On the latter point for example, you have pitchers instructed to work on specific things by the org, so maybe they aren't even concerned with doing X, Y, and Z during a given start. Just a really tough position to develop, and lots of top prospects never fulfill their promise (or at least not on both sides of the ball). If I were building the position I would do my best to craft the future pitcher-whisperers of the league and if some of them can hit, all the better. But easier said than done.

Point of order @LoLsapien : the A+ guys on your list are infielders.
 
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LogansDad

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I am curious about how the nature of catching prospects and particularly their defensive abilities changes in a hypothetical robot ump world. At a certain point framing may become irrelevant or at least less relevant, which could have some trickle down effects. For example if you know you don't have to frame, maybe you can be a beat quicker to blocking that off-speed pitch in the dirt because you didn't need to hang around for that beat in case the pitch was going to land on or just off the corner of the plate as intended. Or you can set farther outside, etc. I do wonder if and how teams may be thinking ahead with this in mind.
I don't think framing is ever going to become irrelevant. Teams are only going to get so many challenges per game, so it's not like every borderline pitch is going to be looked at, and if you have a catcher that can get more of these calls than lose them, it will still benefit the pitching team.

I wanted the Sox to address the serious deficiencies at catcher this offseason. I think by bringing in Zevala and Narvaez they got part of the way there, but the organization is a lot smarter than me and seem to feel (or at least say they feel) that Wong is still the correct answer going forward, so I defer to them on the matter.

There is no upper level depth, there, though, and I expect we should see at least one more catcher added to the high minors before spring training starts. All of the other catchers on the free agent market are ancient, though, so I would be surprised to have it come in the way of a lower level trade.
 

ZMart100

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There is no upper level depth, there, though, and I expect we should see at least one more catcher added to the high minors before spring training starts. All of the other catchers on the free agent market are ancient, though, so I would be surprised to have it come in the way of a lower level trade.
I'm not sure any FA lists I've seen cover the #3-#4 on the depth chart type catchers. Zavala for instance doesn't show up on lists I've looked at. I think there are probably milb free agents I am not aware of in the 60th-120th best C in baseball range.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I'd like us to claim Blake Sabol to add some AAA depth to the catcher position.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/01/giants-designate-blake-sabol-for-assignment.html
He would have to go on the 40-man, but he has an option remaining. I'd be fine with him taking Shugart's spot on the 40-man.
Looks like he hasn't been waived yet, as the Giants are probably trying to get something for him in a trade.
Going forward, the Giants will have one week to either work out a trade involving Sabol or expose him to waivers. As an optionable catching depth option, it would hardly be a surprise to see a catching-needy club take the opportunity to pluck Sabol off waivers in hopes of helping him rediscover something closer to the offensive form he showed in 2023, which would make him a roughly average offensive catcher in the majors. If Sabol were to pass through waivers unclaimed, the Giants would have the option of keeping him in the fold as a non-roster depth option for the 2025 season.
He apparently is poor defensively, but he had an interesting 2023 as a hitter with 13 HRs in the majors in 344 PA, and as noted above, he would be cheap optionable catching depth who could also cover LF and 1B in an emergency.

Sabol, who just celebrated his 27th birthday earlier this week, was a seventh-round pick by the Pirates back in 2019 who was plucked from the organization by San Francisco during the 2022 Rule 5 Draft. That locked Sabol into an Opening Day roster spot with the Giants for 2023, and he performed admirably for a player with just 25 games of Triple-A experience under his belt. While splitting time between catcher and left field in 2023, Sabol hit a respectable .235/.301/.394 (91 wRC+) in 344 trips to the plate.
Once the Giants were able to option him to the minors in 2024, however, Sabol was quickly shuttled back to Triple-A and only made a brief cameo in the majors last year. He hit well in those 11 games, however, with a .313/.421/.375 slash line in 38 trips to the plate while helping cover for a Patrick Bailey during a trip to the concussion-related injured list. When in the minors, Sabol struggled offensively with just a .246/.340/.388 slash line at Triple-A that was good for a wRC+ of just 85.
It'd be nice to add some cheap depth to the catching position with a guy who can hit a little bit.
 

RoDaddy

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Our best option might be to draft a college catcher in the first round of this year's draft. There are several names I've seen mocked in the middle of the first round: Ike Irish, Luke Stevenson and Caden Bodine
 

ZMart100

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Our best option might be to draft a college catcher in the first round of this year's draft. There are several names I've seen mocked in the middle of the first round: Ike Irish, Luke Stevenson and Caden Bodine
Most college players aren't ready for AAA or MLB, but just as importantly the Red Sox need the depth before then. Even with health, they need a body at AAA so Zavala doesn't have to catch everyday. They could try Hickey/Rosario, but I think they are better served at AA. Without health Hickey/Rosario would be on the MLB team and 40 man. I think they need someone that can catch AAA and they can bring up for a while in an emergency and DFA if they need to.
 

JM3

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It's a bleak world out there beyond Yasmani. Who will be the perfect guy to catch for Yordanny.

Screenshot_20250113_201052_Chrome.jpg
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Well, what about Reese McGuire? He’s only 30, grades out well defensively, and most people here seemed to like him, at least for a while. Is there a reason why he seemed to fall out favor with the org, and hasn’t found a job anywhere? Imagine the Sox would be his last choice, but it’s kind of weird that he’s still out there. Do the metrics the teams look at just not align at all with those that are syndicated?
 

Fishy1

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Well, what about Reese McGuire? He’s only 30, grades out well defensively, and most people here seemed to like him, at least for a while. Is there a reason why he seemed to fall out favor with the org, and hasn’t found a job anywhere? Imagine the Sox would be his last choice, but it’s kind of weird that he’s still out there. Do the metrics the teams look at just not align at all with those that are syndicated?
Have wondered the same thing. His bat was horrible last year, I guess.
 

simplicio

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The way McGuire just never played again after that dust up with Quantrill in Colorado made me kinda wonder if some clubhouse stuff happened with him there.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I'd like us to claim Blake Sabol to add some AAA depth to the catcher position.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/01/giants-designate-blake-sabol-for-assignment.html
He would have to go on the 40-man, but he has an option remaining. I'd be fine with him taking Shugart's spot on the 40-man.
Looks like he hasn't been waived yet, as the Giants are probably trying to get something for him in a trade.
He apparently is poor defensively, but he had an interesting 2023 as a hitter with 13 HRs in the majors in 344 PA, and as noted above, he would be cheap optionable catching depth who could also cover LF and 1B in an emergency.
It'd be nice to add some cheap depth to the catching position with a guy who can hit a little bit.
I made a plug for Sabol on the main board a while ago, since he has some intriguing traits. The thing that stuck out is how he has caught very, very few games through college and in the minor leagues. That glaring inexperience provides some hope that he could improve defensively. Grant Bisbee has written about Sabol a few times:
"Catching is hard, and I’ve been pretty dismissive of Sabol’s defensive acumen. His blocking skills were the worst in the league by a wide margin. Baseball Savant has a stat called Blocks Above Average per Game, and Sabol wasn’t just the worst in baseball — he was almost twice as bad as the second worst. But his framing was strong. His pop time was fine. His arm was fine. He did plenty right behind the plate, as it turns out. He was just horrible at keeping the ball in front of him, relative to other catchers."

He is a tall lefty with a .753 OPS against RHP over 329 PAs in the majors. I'd have to imagine the Giants had the same thought and have been working on his defensive skills, so, there might not be more there there. But the highlights of his at bats with the Giants in 2023 are pretty impressive, which makes me hope that the Sox are investigating a potential fit.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Catcher Blake fight! Would you rather have Sabol or Blake Hunt, who was just DFAed by the Orioles?
I doubt we actually end up with either one, but I would prefer Sabol.
But I think if they had to choose one, the Red Sox would choose Hunt, the better defensive catcher who can't hit, over Sabol, the better hitting catcher who can't catch.
We definitely need another catcher for AAA so it will be interesting to see who we end up adding.

I agree that McGuire seems like a solid option on a minor league deal but also that the team seems to have lost interest in him.
 

sittingstill

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Catch-all thread for catchers in the Red Sox system. Catching depth in the Sox system was arguably limited even prior to trading Kyle Teel. There are currently no Sox catching prospects in the Sox top-ten or league-wide top 100 lists. The system depth chart (according to milb.com on 1/13/25) now looks like:

MLB: Wong, Narvaez
AAA: Seby Zavala
AA: Nathan Hickey, Ronald Rosario, Matt Donlan
A+: Justin Riemer, Luis Ravelo, Fraymi de Leon
A: Brooks Brannon, Johanfran Garcia, Andrew Mussett, Diego Vilario.
Expanding/fixing this a bit with the SP projections at each level, bolding names not listed from milb.com:

MLB: Wong, Narvaez
AAA: Seby Zavala [and an acquisition; Hickey should be here but likely at 1B]
AA: Ronald Rosario, Matt Donlan, Drew Ehrhard
A+: Johanfran Garcia, Brooks Brannon, Hudson White
Mid-level group projected as "inactive": Juan Montero, Diego Viloria, Enderso Lira
A: Andruw Musett, Gerardo Rodriguez, Daniel McElveny
 

20Ks

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I am curious about how the nature of catching prospects and particularly their defensive abilities changes in a hypothetical robot ump world. At a certain point framing may become irrelevant or at least less relevant, which could have some trickle down effects. For example if you know you don't have to frame, maybe you can be a beat quicker to blocking that off-speed pitch in the dirt because you didn't need to hang around for that beat in case the pitch was going to land on or just off the corner of the plate as intended. Or you can set farther outside, etc. I do wonder if and how teams may be thinking ahead with this in mind.

That said, there is already a lot that is very difficult or nebulous to rate in the minors, especially the lower levels, namely how one works with a pitching staff, prepares for opposing hitters with that day's starter, etc. On the latter point for example, you have pitchers instructed to work on specific things by the org, so maybe they aren't even concerned with doing X, Y, and Z during a given start. Just a really tough position to develop, and lots of top prospects never fulfill their promise (or at least not on both sides of the ball). If I were building the position I would do my best to craft the future pitcher-whisperers of the league and if some of them can hit, all the better. But easier said than done.

Point of order @LoLsapien : the A+ guys on your list are infielders.
Great post. The ABS in regards to framing is an interesting point, and even with just a challenge system, would make it less relevant. My brother tracks the ABS for the Woosox, and he thinks its ready for full time (and hes an ump). I think framing is a nebulous stat as it is.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Our best option might be to draft a college catcher in the first round of this year's draft. There are several names I've seen mocked in the middle of the first round: Ike Irish, Luke Stevenson and Caden Bodine
If the Red Sox really have the opportunity to draft a catcher named Ike Irish, I don't see how anybody could possibly object. Please allow me to take you on an Ike Irish side trip...
Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 50 | Run: 40 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 50

Irish was part of a St. Mary's Prep (Orchard Lake, Mich.) club that won three straight championships in his three full seasons in 2019, '21 and '22. Those teams featured two players who received seven-figure bonuses (Brock Porter out of high school, Alex Mooney after two years at Duke) and two potential 2025 first-rounders in Irish and Oklahoma State slugger Nolan Schubart. He still needs to improve his consistency on both sides of the ball, but among this year's catchers, Irish may be the best bet to produce at the plate.

Irish's biggest proponents see him as a solid hitter with 20-homer power, while other evaluators worry that his left-handed swing is a bit stiff and his pop won't play as well with wood bats. He controls the strike zone well but chases pitches more than he should, resulting in too much ground-ball contact. He handles southpaws well and easily puts the bat on the ball, so he just needs to be more selective to reach his offensive ceiling.

Though he has below-average speed, Irish runs better than most catchers and will steal an occasional base. He's improving as a defender and has the hands to become an average receiver and framer, though Auburn only caught him in about half its games in 2024. A long release undermines his plus arm strength a bit, and he moves and throws well enough to handle right field.
"Irish is a bat-first catcher who could also potentially fit at first base or a corner outfield spot, though he has improved as a receiver and has a strong arm behind the plate. One of the better prep prospects to make it to campus in 2023, he has turned in two impressive seasons at Auburn, posting a 1.030 OPS with 14 home runs this past spring."
"Irish is a plus hitter with a short, direct swing with plus bat speed. He sprays the baseball all over the yard with a gap-to-gap approach and has present power to the pull side.".
On 2024 success in Cape Cod League

Bottom line -- sounds like a lot of catcher prospects. Good power potential and leadership characteristics. Hit tool needs to be refined. Defensively should be able to stick at catcher with a lot of work.
 

JM3

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View: https://twitter.com/PeterGFlaherty/status/1860192614856736934

C Ike Irish (@AuburnBaseball) is one of the premier college bats in this year's Draft class. Exploded onto the scene as a true Freshman in '23, hitting .361/.429/.546 with 31 XBH and 50 RBIs. Followed suit with a more productive Sophomore year in which he tapped into more power and hit .319/.403/.627 with 27 XBH (14 HR) and 59 RBIs in 47 games. Had an excellent summer on the Cape and was both an All-Star and All-League selection after hitting .325/.438/.433 with 5 2B, 2 HR, and 12 RBIs across 34 games.

Irish is on the leaner side at 6'2" and 210-pounds, but he has particular strength and physicality in his lower-half. He stands fairly tall in the box with a medium-high handset and an open front side. Noticeable leg lift with a normal stride. With two strikes, Irish will widen his base and sit deeper in his stance. He'll also eliminate his leg lift and deploy a small stride. Will drop and drift his hands at times, so the key is not getting bar-armed. Above-average bat speed.

Irish has an all-fields approach and an advanced feel to hit. Bat-to-ball skills are above-average and it's been encouraging to see the strides his approach has taken year-over-year. Chased at a 30% clip in '23, he cut it down to 26% last season. Has a knack for being on the barrel and will spray line drives all over the yard.

Irish's power also took a step forward in 2024, and one of the main reasons why was that he got the ball up in the air more. His fly ball rate in 2023 was just 19%, and it improved to 24% in 2024. Irish has shown the ability to drive the baseball with authority into either gap, but his highest quality of contact has come from CF over to the pull side. Posted a Max EV in the spring of 112. Very enticing hit-power combination, there's a chance both end up grading out as 55s by the time the Draft rolls around.

The biggest question mark in Irish's profile is where he'll end up defensively. He's gotten better behind the dish, but there's still work to be done. Has done a better job of staying connected to the ground and cleaning up his footwork, though the efficiency of his transfers will need to take a step forward. Will also need to continue to improve his blocking and receiving. Irish's raw arm strength is above-average, so there's a chance he ends up in a corner OF spot down the road. While there are some unknowns defensively, you're buying Irish's bat. He has top-20 overall upside this July.
 

JM3

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I doubt we actually end up with either one, but I would prefer Sabol.
But I think if they had to choose one, the Red Sox would choose Hunt, the better defensive catcher who can't hit, over Sabol, the better hitting catcher who can't catch.
We definitely need another catcher for AAA so it will be interesting to see who we end up adding.

I agree that McGuire seems like a solid option on a minor league deal but also that the team seems to have lost interest in him.
View: https://twitter.com/Hunter_Noll/status/1879607833282634124
 

simplicio

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Interesting, Breslow dipping into the IFA pool again. I wonder how much, and if it's signaling that we aren't going after a QO guy.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I am glad they are listening to me, but that probably isn't a good thing if they keep doing it. :D
If they had listened to me last offseason, we would be on the hook for Jordan Montgomery right now, yikes!
 

JM3

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Interesting, Breslow dipping into the IFA pool again. I wonder how much, and if it's signaling that we aren't going after a QO guy.
I assume it's for this year, where they're currently $1m under their cap, & the QO would impact next year's $$$.
 

simplicio

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Would a QO player signed before today have impacted this year's pool? I'm not clear on where the cutoff is.
 

JM3

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Would a QO player signed before today have impacted this year's pool? I'm not clear on where the cutoff is.
My understanding is that everyone who signs a QO guy in this off season loses the money for the 2026 IFA class. I saw Hatfield post something about how this was technically the '24-'25 class, even though the window doesn't open until January now.
 

JM3

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15. Blake Sabol, C

Once a pretty famous high school prospect, Sabol went to USC, where he moved out from behind the plate and to the outfield (including spending a little bit of time in center) after his freshman year. He slashed .268/.333/.375 in college, not great for what had become a corner outfield prospect. Over time, the Pirates moved him back behind the plate, increasing his reps until he was mostly catching (while playing some left field) in 2022. Sabol has raked through the minors, but as an old-for-the-level regular, culminating in a huge 2022: .284/.363/.497 with 51 extra-base hits as a 24-year old at Double- and Triple-A. After a fair Fall League stint, the Pirates decided not to roster Sabol and exposed him to the Rule 5 Draft, which is how (after a trade with the Reds) he ended up with San Francisco, a club often intrigued by guys who can catch and do other stuff.

Sabol’s arm strength is okay, but it takes him so long to get out of his crouch that his pop times often play in the 2.05-2.15 range, which is not good. Among the many changes the Giants made to his approach back there is that he’s more likely to cut it loose from his knees, Erik Kratz style, as a way of avoiding how long it takes to get his huge frame up out of his crouch. Sabol used to be a stiff, one-knee’d receiver, but the Giants have him moving around much more, sometimes starting in a traditional crouch before going to a knee as the ball is in flight (or about to be). It’s a better look than what he was doing with Pittsburgh, but we just won’t know exactly how well Sabol can throw until he gets more reps with his new style. In his big league innings so far, his back-picks to first and his throws on attempted steals of third have been from his knees, whereas he’s gone back to popping out of his crouch on throws to second. The results haven’t been favorable, with the long pop-times to second resulting in a lot of successfully stolen bases. It’s important for Sabol to catch part-time because he likely doesn’t have the hit tool to profile as a corner outfielder. He has thus far performed around league average, albeit with a high strikeout rate, while splitting his time between catching and playing left field. He’s a super cool role player, a backup catcher plus a little more.
San Francisco Giants Top 49 Prospects | FanGraphs Baseball
 

SouthernBoSox

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Definitely a good guy to have on the 40 given the current catching pool in the high minors and majors. I also just appreciate how Breslow works the 40 man. The team is in such a better spot than it has been in a long time when it comes to competent depth up and down the 40
 

LogansDad

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I am glad they are listening to me, but that probably isn't a good thing if they keep doing it. :D
If they had listened to me last offseason, we would be on the hook for Jordan Montgomery right now, yikes!
Ha. FWIW I was out on Montgomery last year, and think this is a solid move, so we should be okay.
 

LoLsapien

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I am curious about how the nature of catching prospects and particularly their defensive abilities changes in a hypothetical robot ump world. At a certain point framing may become irrelevant or at least less relevant, which could have some trickle down effects. For example if you know you don't have to frame, maybe you can be a beat quicker to blocking that off-speed pitch in the dirt because you didn't need to hang around for that beat in case the pitch was going to land on or just off the corner of the plate as intended. Or you can set farther outside, etc. I do wonder if and how teams may be thinking ahead with this in mind.

That said, there is already a lot that is very difficult or nebulous to rate in the minors, especially the lower levels, namely how one works with a pitching staff, prepares for opposing hitters with that day's starter, etc. On the latter point for example, you have pitchers instructed to work on specific things by the org, so maybe they aren't even concerned with doing X, Y, and Z during a given start. Just a really tough position to develop, and lots of top prospects never fulfill their promise (or at least not on both sides of the ball). If I were building the position I would do my best to craft the future pitcher-whisperers of the league and if some of them can hit, all the better. But easier said than done.

Point of order @LoLsapien : the A+ guys on your list are infielders.
Guh, you are so right. I was on my way to add Blake to the roster in the opening post so I'll make that change as well. Thanks!