The Celtics Offseason

Jed Zeppelin

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Need more team speed. With TL not 100% it really reduced this aspect of their team where they were both bigger/longer than most opponents but also generally as athletic, which is what made them such a terror to score against. JT, JB, Smart, White, Al, TL, Brogdon, Grant, Hauser is a slowwwwww top 9 and gets even slower if Gallo ever steps on the court for the Cs. This is why they look like such shit against aggressive defense, they just don't have the fast twitch to beat it.

The guards are all big but really slow, relatively speaking. Marcus can get by with bullyball and Brogdon with angles and White with cheeky floaters but not a one of them can consistently break down a D off the dribble. If Jaylen could dribble or pass this would be mitigated but against a playoff defense he cannot be relied on for this at all.

I don't have fully formed thoughts as to what to do but I am a Tatum truther in that you need to be really open to big moves with the understanding that Tatum is good enough to carry any combination of decent to good players to 50+ wins. The options for more additive moves are limited, but if there are some rebalance moves out there you have to explore everything. More speed, and maybe not necessarily more shooting but rather shooting that is a little more versatile. Miami were running out 4 role players (or 3 role players and Superstar Caleb Martin) that could drain catch and shoot threes but also hit them curling around screens both on or off the ball while Butler/Bam drew most of the defensive attention. JB and JT draw too much attention to get these kinds of easy single screen open looks, you don't want Marcus taking them, Grant can't dribble and chew gum at the same time, and White/Brogdon aren't really those kinds of shooters. Hauser is kind of the only guy. Need more quick twitch to create uncomfortable situations for the defense in the half court. If the whole team isn't pushing the pace, they play too slow, too easy to defend.
 

Cellar-Door

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I love that shifting leadership means trading Marcus..lol.
I’m actually not opposed to trading Marcus (because of White’s emergence and pressing needs elsewhere) but if leadership is the problem wouldn’t they also want to can Mazzulla?
No, because on-court/lockerroom team leadership in the NBA is not coach based. The NBA is a players' league, it's basically the opposite of the NFL, the coach has a role, but his power and influence (even one's like Pop) is much lower, there are a bunch of pressures and relationships that influence everything from performance to even rotations that the coach often doesn't have final say on.
 

PedroKsBambino

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There's a couple overlapping scenarios and objectives I see...

1) You are able to trade Smart for value and replace him with a better distributor, ideally one who isn't too small/limited defensively

2) You decide you need to move on from Jaylen (which might be part of solving 1, or may be separate....and may be a result of negotiating with him to get below the max and failing, or something else). Or, of course, you just max him or reach a sub-max extension

3) You decide you can't afford Grant (either to start with, or because he gets a big RFA offer)

4) Less likely, but not inconceivable, you decide you need to cut some salary - and are playing the market to see how you do that across TL, Smart, White, Grant, etc.

To me, you have to come to a point of view on Jaylen first - the others are all derivative of your answer to that. My guess is they will offer him the full max and make other choices from there but I acknowledge there's some different views on that. And if you do that and it's at or near full max, it creates a bunch of financial pressure on the other options. I do believe they will 'write the check' but also that there's some operational realities around the second apron that may militate towards cutting a salary out of the current depth chart
 

OurF'ingCity

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I don’t think they have to move on from Jaylen, but if a trade presents itself where Brad thinks they can stay roughly consistent in terms of talent level (or even take a minor step back on paper) I think he has to pull the trigger.

I know he made all-NBA this year but he’s shown pretty consistently that he wilts in the biggest moments. To me, he’s a front-runner - he seems to do great when the team as a whole is doing well or when Tatum is also going off, but he’s just not the type of guy who will put a stop to a big run the other team is making with a few clutch threes or defensive stops or great passes or whatever. To me, as good as he is, that’s not the kind of guy I’d want to give a supermax contract to.

Now maybe at the end of the day there are no better options and they just have to ride or die with this core, or maybe a better coach could unlock this apparent mental block in Brown’s game (although he’s now had three separate, very different coaches), but it would be malpractice for the Celtics not to at least explore options.

The other issue is that Tatum and Brown are somewhat redundant - which isn’t the worst thing, but given the choice I’d rather pair Tatum with a second-banana that’s a big man or a high-volume scoring, quick point guard/ball handler. For example I think if there was a package centered around KAT (not really sure why the Wolves would do that, but for example purposes) I think the Cs would need to think long and hard about that even given KAT’s legitimate flaws. Other than GSW which is a bit of a unicorn the best teams in the last 5ish years have almost always had their two best players fill different roles - this goes against the “positionless basketball” idea that is trendy in theory, but in practice I’m not totally sure it works.
 

Murderer's Crow

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When is the last time a team who made it to game 7 of the conference finals blew it up not due to age or money issues? I can't remember anything recent and I doubt the Celtics are going to be any different. Anyone who is voting for major roster changes had a better chance with a sweep but winning 3 games this series had to have shut down any possibility that the people who feel there is something wrong with the foundation of the roster will get their wish for big changes. Boston is still the top dog in the East and there will be some on paper moves that keeps them there to have another legitimate shot at at title and as a non-Celtics fan, that's still scary.

If the Heat beat Denver, do you feel better about taking them to 7 games and less likely to want to move Brown?
 

billy ashley

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They're in a really difficult spot.

The roster is really mostly set. Grant is a really good role player, but he's the only key piece of personnel that requires a decision this off-season. Given that there are multiple teams flush with money, I could see him going. This team is really good, and experienced excellent luck in terms of health (minus Brogdon and Tatum this week) but it feels like they may have plateaued.

Of the core players (Tatum, Brown, Smart, White, Horford, RWIII*, Brogdon) it doesn't seem likely that any are going to see large improvements. Tatum is probably near his (considerable) peak. Brown, too. Smart, White and Brogdon are fantastic but are probably nearing their declines. Horford could collapse any time.

*I suppose Rob could make a leap, but with his health history, do we want to bank on that?

I really worry that these Jays teams are going to be remembered as a team that should have won a championship but didn't.

I really don't see a way to not run it back unless they trade Brown, and I wouldn't trade Brown unless they could replace a decent chunk of his offense, and position themselves to extend their window (the Portland deal that gets tossed around a lot would be a template: 3rd pick, Simons, salaries).

As I have no idea what they can do if they are running it back with small tweaks, I guess it's better to just ask questions:
  • If running it back, do you go crazy on Grant Williams? How much are you willing to match?
  • Payton Prichard doesn't have a spot on this team, is there anyone who thinks he could be a rotation player elsewhere? If so what value does he bring back? (a 2nd round pick?, a similarly blocked F)
  • Does JD Davison look like a potential rotation piece? If they trade Prichard, is he an internal depth option to backfill? Do we feel that he took positive steps this season? Could he be a cheap rotation player eventually (we're going to need those, soon)?
  • What's the Al Horford transition plan? He looked exposed at times against Miami. We all love the guy, but he's almost as old as I am staring down the barrel of 40.
  • Is Rob going to be able to add to his offensive game?
  • Does Gallo make a difference for this team or is he redundant with Hauser (great spacer who is hunted in the playoffs).
  • Is Brogdon the answer for 6th man? He's an awesome piece, but his skill set feels very similar to Brown and Tatum on offense. Would it make sense to have someone who brings something different off the bench

It just feels like they're stuck.
 

bosockboy

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Hauser was definitely misused. He’s a Strus and could contribute open 3’s and we failed at extracting postseason value out of him.
 

Curtis Pride

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I'd bring everyone back, get Mazzulla some veteran coaching help, and hope Horford can go the distance again. It's still a very strong team. A few tweaks might make them better.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Ironically, yesterday was pretty much the situation Gallo was acquired for - offense floundering, some injuries, need some juice. And he maybe-sort of got close to being back for it, but not quite.
 

jablo1312

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They're in a really difficult spot.

It just feels like they're stuck.
I mean they’re stuck as a team that was a co-favorite to win the east, and would be again if they ran it back next year. Could be much worse, although they definitely experienced relative health-luck this year.
 

Leon Trotsky

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I went to 12 games at the Garden, took my daughter to her first two games, watched just about every minute of every other game, and got an enormous amount of entertainment out of this team. Congrats to them on a great season and I look forward to next year!

They should run it mostly back, get CJM some real assistants and a full offseason to prepare, and look to find one big to essentially be the third big rotation piece (like with the three big guards), and a reliable 3 and D guy (Grant was not either of those guys). Who those guys are, and how they get them is the real question. Is it possible with Pritchard and Grant W. going out with the current cap situation?
 

CaptainLaddie

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Make PBS CBS again.

I don''t understand why he ever left. Mazoulla might be good or might become good, but there's no reason for the Celtics to be placing bets on coaching development when they are trying to win a championship right now. Go with the proven commodity that inspires confidence.
Because the team had tuned him out after seven seasons as CBS.
 

nighthob

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What about the way the Celtics are constructed makes Smart more valuable to them than he would be to another team?
It’s because he’s a role player and teams don’t break the bank to acquire them. It’s not just Smart, there are a lot of guys like him around the league and they generally don’t bring you much in trade. Just look at how little White cost to acquire, now Boston was lucky in that deal, but in any Smart trade we’re the Spurs.
 

4 6 3 DP

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Understanding that I am just an internet message boarder, I can't really follow the logic of just bringing back the same team thinking things will get better.
  • This is supposed to be a championship team, why in the world would you gamble on a coach who showed real weaknesses? One would assume that Brad Stevens is uniquely equipped to evaluate basketball head coaches, and the only reason that Joe Mazzula should be coaching this team next year is if in the opinion of POBOBS, he is the best available coach on earth. Not because they can hire some grownups around him, but because he is the best. If he is brought back and the coaching is mediocre next season, POBOBS should be fired. I cannot imagine that Wyc is going to pay millions and millions in luxury tax but let a few million in contract value to Mazzula hamper him. This is arguing that Grady Little should have been retained in 2004 because you could give him a coaching staff with a brain and after all they made it to game 7. Unless as said above POBOBS truly believes he is the best available option.
  • I think Jaylen Brown has to be extended, but not for the reasons that this core should be preserved. The simple issue with Jaylen is that if they want to trade him this offseason, I am assuming he can control his destination by simply refusing an extension and going to free agency. It makes little sense to trade him for below value. The best way to maximize the value of the asset is to sign him to the max deal, play out next year, and if you don't win, trade him then, where you can get a bidding war for him. Only way you can deal him is in the perfect situation where the team that will pay fair value is a destination he'd re-sign with. Feels a little bit like pulling an inside straight. This isn't Kawhi Leonard getting dealt to Toronto with a year left on his deal and Toronto gambling he'd extend - Jaylen Brown isn't a franchise player. He's a very good one.
  • Everything I needed to know about this team and it's coach was learned with 3 seconds left of Game 6. You have Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown on your team. And yet somehow, with three seconds left, enough time to do several things with the ball, all that could be drawn up by the head coach and executed by its players was Marcus Smart heaving a fall away three pointer to try and save your season. There is not a single doubt in my mind that Spoelstra would have gotten that ball to Butler with roles reversed, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that Butler would have likely murdered a teammate in the locker room after the game were they not to have gotten the ball to him for that final shot. And yet, off a time out, we don't get the ball to Tatum, we don't get it to Brown going to the basket (where he would be most effective), we get it to the guy on the team with the single most inflated sense of his abilities to take a terrible shot. I'm not even sure he should have been on the floor in that situation let along taking that shot. I don't know how you fix that DNA without bringing in a very strong voice on the floor. Given that such players do not grow on trees, it's getting the 2023 version of Dennis Johnson. I think there's more in Jayson Tatum and I think you can maximize Jaylen Brown if you get a ball dominant guard to run the team and get the ball to the right place on the floor.
  • I can't blame Jaylen for the game 7 stuff because they employ professionals who should know that Brown is likely to dribble a basketball off of any part of his body at any time against playoff-level defense. He doesn't realize it because he's a confident pro athlete and I wouldn't want him to realize it. Just like Marcus Smart thinks he's an equal to Tatum and Brown, which is insane, but ultimately what you want your players to believe. You have to have coaching and players who maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. For Jaylen Brown, he's worth it. For Smart, he isn't. I'd deal him for best return, because I think in the playoffs his weaknesses outweigh his strengths, he doesn't see himself as a fifth option, he thinks he's a team leader, and he's just not a good enough player to work around.
Everything else is just rearranging deck chairs.
 

Ed Hillel

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It’s because he’s a role player and teams don’t break the bank to acquire them. It’s not just Smart, there are a lot of guys like him around the league and they generally don’t bring you much in trade. Just look at how little White cost to acquire, now Boston was lucky in that deal, but in any Smart trade we’re the Spurs.
I’d like Smart gone from the locker room tbh, and I think you can probably find something close enough to the on court value he adds in exchanging for handing the reigns over this team to Jayson Tatum. I’d just like him in a position where there’s no real ambiguity as to whose locker room it is and whose identity the team takes on.
 

bsan34

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When the idea of trading Smart last came up, the proposed value out there in the ether was Duncan Robinson, fresh off a $90m contract and having lost his spot in the rotation. And that's when Smart had 2 fewer years of mileage on him.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I went to 12 games at the Garden, took my daughter to her first two games, watched just about every minute of every other game, and got an enormous amount of entertainment out of this team. Congrats to them on a great season and I look forward to next year!

They should run it mostly back, get CJM some real assistants and a full offseason to prepare, and look to find one big to essentially be the third big rotation piece (like with the three big guards), and a reliable 3 and D guy (Grant was not either of those guys). Who those guys are, and how they get them is the real question. Is it possible with Pritchard and Grant W. going out with the current cap situation?
No, they're well over the cap even if those guys go (they'd have to cut Pritchard since he's under contract, and he only makes $4m anyway, so he's really only valuable as a piece of a larger trade). And if they extend Jaylen they won't even get their mid-level exception (I think - not 100% sure when that part of the CBA takes effect), meaning the only way they'd be able to add pieces is via minimum contracts, draft picks, and trades.
 

nighthob

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]Everything I needed to know about this team and it's coach was learned with 3 seconds left of Game 6. You have Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown on your team. And yet somehow, with three seconds left, enough time to do several things with the ball, all that could be drawn up by the head coach and executed by its players was Marcus Smart heaving a fall away three pointer to try and save your season. There is not a single doubt in my mind that Spoelstra would have gotten that ball to Butler with roles reversed, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that Butler would have likely murdered a teammate in the locker room after the game were they not to have gotten the ball to him for that final shot. And yet, off a time out, we don't get the ball to Tatum, we don't get it to Brown going to the basket (where he would be most effective), we get it to the guy on the team with the single most inflated sense of his abilities to take a terrible shot. I'm not even sure he should have been on the floor in that situation let along taking that shot. I don't know how you fix that DNA without bringing in a very strong voice on the floor. Given that such players do not grow on trees, it's getting the 2023 version of Dennis Johnson. I think there's more in Jayson Tatum and I think you can maximize Jaylen Brown if you get a ball dominant guard to run the team and get the ball to the right place on the floor.
Look at Miami’s disastrously bad defense on that final play. Does everything you need to know about Spoelstra come from just how bad that defensive alignment was?
 

nighthob

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I’d like Smart gone from the locker room tbh, and I think you can probably find something close enough to the on court value he adds in exchanging for handing the reigns over this team to Jayson Tatum. I’d just like him in a position where there’s no real ambiguity as to whose locker room it is and whose identity the team takes on.
Take a look around the first round busts in the league at the moment. That and filler are what you’re getting.
 

nighthob

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No, they're well over the cap even if those guys go (they'd have to cut Pritchard since he's under contract, and he only makes $4m anyway, so he's really only valuable as a piece of a larger trade). And if they extend Jaylen they won't even get their mid-level exception (I think - not 100% sure when that part of the CBA takes effect), meaning the only way they'd be able to add pieces is via minimum contracts, draft picks, and trades.
That’s the real problem. The purpose of the new CBA is to break up really good teams and disperse talent around the league. Teams like Boston don’t have the luxury of draft busts on their current path. They need to convert draft picks into functioning roleplayers.
 

jezza1918

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Look at Miami’s disastrously bad defense on that final play. Does everything you need to know about Spoelstra come from just how bad that defensive alignment was?
On top of this...I thought it was pretty well covered that the play was likely drawn up for Brown, but Smart's screen on Bam wasn't good enough? And either way the play looked very well designed to my novice eye - Tatum draws 2 defenders away, Smart (or Brown if he had gotten it) have the choice of taking an immediate shot leaving time for the put back OR White was wide open in the corner if they want to take one better shot. Neither are exactly high percentage plays, but in the context of down a point with 3 seconds left I feel like that's pretty damned good?
 

4 6 3 DP

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If Marcus Smart taking a fall away 3 pointer to save a season is a well regarded coaching outcome, we agree to disagree.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I don’t really get the Smart hate; he seems to me like a guy who tries to do way too much when no one else will. The idea that he’s a negative influence, selfish, and needs to go don’t really jive, for me at least. Certainly has his flaws but think we’d miss him more than we think.
 

jezza1918

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If Marcus Smart taking a fall away 3 pointer to save a season is a well regarded coaching outcome, we agree to disagree.
Again within the context of 3 seconds left and needing a bucket, the play itself looked well designed. Outcome aside - would you have been happier if the final play went like this: Smart sets a better screen, Brown gets the ball, but instead of shooting dishes it to a wide open White for a corner 3, but he misses it...again nothing drawn up there is likely going to be a high percentage positive outcome IMO
 

JM3

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It’s because he’s a role player and teams don’t break the bank to acquire them. It’s not just Smart, there are a lot of guys like him around the league and they generally don’t bring you much in trade. Just look at how little White cost to acquire, now Boston was lucky in that deal, but in any Smart trade we’re the Spurs.
That's a slightly separate issue of him being more valuable than what you could potentially get back in a trade, but is a different issue from his value to the Celtics compared to other teams based on rosters, which is what I thought the comment was about.

& I don't think the Celtics would be looking to get back a late 1st & flotsam. They would probably be looking for a comparable role player who just plays a different role.
 

nighthob

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If Marcus Smart taking a fall away 3 pointer to save a season is a well regarded coaching outcome, we agree to disagree.
Smart or Brown taking a jumper with two players there to gather the rebound as Miami dithers defensively has a lot more potential to end well for Boston than Miami. Now if Strus had been watching the inbounder rather than Tatum it might have been a different outcome.
 

Strike4

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I'd bring everyone back, get Mazzulla some veteran coaching help, and hope Horford can go the distance again. It's still a very strong team. A few tweaks might make them better.
Everybody is going to overlook this take but it's probably the most sensible and likely. You don't risk wrecking a ECF team - whatever the expectations prior to the season - by making a whole bunch of moves with any downside at all (letting JB go, firing Mazzulla, jettisoning Smart to like send a message or something). Just from the standpoint of any company/org/team/body, this doesn't really happen in situations where the management is even remotely competent.
 

nighthob

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That's a slightly separate issue of him being more valuable than what you could potentially get back in a trade, but is a different issue from his value to the Celtics compared to other teams based on rosters, which is what I thought the comment was about.

& I don't think the Celtics would be looking to get back a late 1st & flotsam. They would probably be looking for a comparable role player who just plays a different role.
Unfortunately they really aren’t likely to find that guy because teams don’t break the bank to get roleplayers.
 

nighthob

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Everybody is going to overlook this take but it's probably the most sensible and likely. You don't risk wrecking a ECF team - whatever the expectations prior to the season - by making a whole bunch of moves with any downside at all (letting JB go, firing Mazzulla, jettisoning Smart to like send a message or something). Just from the standpoint of any company/org/team/body, this doesn't really happen in situations where the management is even remotely competent.
Running it back is the most likely result because there just aren’t a lot of options for them. Grant might be moved in RFA, but thanks to the new CBA it’s likely to be for a draft pick. But then how do you replace him? If Boston’s in supertax territory they wouldn’t even get a TPE to use.
 

Cellar-Door

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It’s because he’s a role player and teams don’t break the bank to acquire them. It’s not just Smart, there are a lot of guys like him around the league and they generally don’t bring you much in trade. Just look at how little White cost to acquire, now Boston was lucky in that deal, but in any Smart trade we’re the Spurs.
Sure, but as you say... the cost for role players is fairly low, which means whatever you get for him can go a good way in getting a different role player.

Smart is a defense first big combo-guard. Brogdon is an offense-first big combo guard. I'd expect they each have value around a future protected 1st, maybe a cheap (Nesmith) guy for deep bench thrown in. You can probably trade Smart for that return and immediately flip it in a deal for a different 4th/5th man with a different skillset.
 

nighthob

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We’re entering Rube Goldberg territory there. Like I keep saying, I think running it back is really their only choice at this point. But long term that Supertax is a killer, if you’re building a team around two 35% max guys Boston’s middle class players (Brogdon, Smart, White, Williams) are going to have to be replaced with lower cost talent. But there’s nothing to be done immediately aside from signing Brown to an extension that will give them the option of moving him in the summer of ‘24 if the right deal presents itself (and then building around Tatum and more cost controlled players).
 

JM3

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Unfortunately they really aren’t likely to find that guy because teams don’t break the bank to get roleplayers.
So... you're saying teams only value their own role players?

Just as a quickie example - even though I know we're both not really DFS guys, he's a role-playing 3D wing. He makes a bit less than Smart, but the Nets have lots of wings so maybe they need a smaller defensive guy to complement Cam & Seth or whatever.

So to make $ match let's do...

Smart + Champignon

for

DFS + Patty

Patty was awful this year & is toast, but he makes the $ work & can either be a depth option for certain matchups or go to a 3rd team, idc.

But this allows us to clear up some of the redundancy with White/Brogdon & gets us a bigger guy who needs the ball less & can shoot better. & who makes more sense in a Tatumcentric offense.
 

slamminsammya

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When is the last time a team who made it to game 7 of the conference finals blew it up not due to age or money issues? I can't remember anything recent and I doubt the Celtics are going to be any different. Anyone who is voting for major roster changes had a better chance with a sweep but winning 3 games this series had to have shut down any possibility that the people who feel there is something wrong with the foundation of the roster will get their wish for big changes. Boston is still the top dog in the East and there will be some on paper moves that keeps them there to have another legitimate shot at at title and as a non-Celtics fan, that's still scary.

If the Heat beat Denver, do you feel better about taking them to 7 games and less likely to want to move Brown?
The Pacers? Although they kept the core together another season i suppose and blew it up when Hibbert became an obsolete artifact of a bygone era.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Everybody is going to overlook this take but it's probably the most sensible and likely. You don't risk wrecking a ECF team - whatever the expectations prior to the season - by making a whole bunch of moves with any downside at all (letting JB go, firing Mazzulla, jettisoning Smart to like send a message or something). Just from the standpoint of any company/org/team/body, this doesn't really happen in situations where the management is even remotely competent.
I mostly agree with this, with the exception of "letting JB go." The question isn't whether to "let him go," it's whether to give him a huge raise on what he is currently making, to the tune of a ~$15m increase next year and then going up further after that, keeping in mind that they will also need to give Tatum an even huger raise next offseason (if/when he signs it it will likely be the largest contract in NBA history). So by keeping Brown they are significantly mortgaging their future, particularly with the new, more onerous penalties for significant luxury tax payers (to the extent ownership is willing to pay huge luxury tax penalties at all, which is something that hasn't really been discussed here yet).

Now there very well may be no better option and you can still theoretically trade Brown later down the road even after he signs, but I think it's a stretch to say that management would be incompetent if it didn't at least consider the option and call around to gauge potential trade possibilities this offseason.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Running it back is the most likely result because there just aren’t a lot of options for them. Grant might be moved in RFA, but thanks to the new CBA it’s likely to be for a draft pick. But then how do you replace him? If Boston’s in supertax territory they wouldn’t even get a TPE to use.
You want to have a deep and balanced team to get you through the season and not have your starters play big minutes, but if the C's aren't going to play Grant in the playoffs, how much do you really want to spend on the guy? Honest question. I don't know the answer. Maybe the C's played the only 3 teams he didn't match up well against, but if they aren't going to play him when it matters most, are the C's better off trying to find a S&T for him?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I mean you could've just read what I wrote after the bolded. I wasn't referring to what he has sacrificed this year.

You're complaining that they've been at this for 6 years. Well, 5 years ago, in what could have been a huge break out year 3, Jaylen took a cut in minutes AND shots for Gordon Hayward. Seven years ago, he was treated like a project subordinate to a feel good run with a 5'9" point guard.

He has sacrificed a tremendous amount of on court development as a primary option for the sake of this team's contention. The numbers you point out are purely a testament to Jaylen's ability to develop and grow as a player. Just imagine where he might be individually if he had taken say the SGA route, 35 minutes and 15 shots a game starting Year 2.
In addition, in Year 4, he was still taking fewer shots than another diminutive PG.

JB is 26 - but in my estimation, he's a "young" 26 in basketball terms. I believe JT played PG when he was younger so he developed basketball game skills but my guess is that JB was so much athletically better than everyone else, he was late to that part of the game. And then he came to BOS where he wasn't getting the touches a lot of other #3 picks would get so he's behind developmentally.

But I'm pretty certain that he's going to get better. After all, it's not like anyone questions how hard he works.
 

bakahump

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Bam and Butler drew all the attention.
To Allow role players to thrive.

JT and JB was doing the same until JT dinged the ankle and was 80% and JB became the focus of a maniacal Jimmy Butler and Spolestra.
We tried to counter with Role Player Derrick White which was OK...until he too go hurt...but he was still no match for Caleb Martin.
Al didnt step up.
Brogdan was hurt.
GWilliams was terrible .....or at least about 60% of himself (which was only an average NBA player anyway) after the New year and into the playoffs.
Hauser is too slow and huntable.
Pritchard is too slow and too small
RWilliams was hurt (again....though this time something other then a leg?? Arm?)
Smart was "Eh"....which is french for Smart.

Basically Martin was the 4th best player in the series. That should not have happened with these rosters.

We paid alot of money for the best 3-9 in the league. And when we needed it they were either hurt or ineffective.
Brown was bad last night no doubt and I am still trying to decide what to do there.
But we lost this SERIES because 3-9 came up small.

Trade Smart and TL. For a more reliable athletic big. Trade PP for an athletic wing, give his small amount of minutes to JD. Say thanks and Ditch Gallo, Muscala and Blake and look for the next set of ring chasers.
THEY may be the most valuable commodity with the new CBA coming.
 

soxin6

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Take a look around the first round busts in the league at the moment. That and filler are what you’re getting.
Sometimes you just need to move on from the player, no matter how little you get in return. Smart is the alpha on this team and that cannot continue if they are ever going to win. Smart is not likely to take a step back, so the only way that Tatum or Brown can take that role is for Smart to play somewhere else.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Trade Smart and TL. For a more reliable athletic big. Trade PP for an athletic wing, give his small amount of minutes to JD. Say thanks and Ditch Gallo, Muscala and Blake and look for the next set of ring chasers.
THEY may be the most valuable commodity with the new CBA coming.
I'm not sure how much I want to start re-tooling the roster behind Tatum & Brown, but if they do shake it up I like this outline.

Rob Williams is great but the reliability is an issue and the special 2021-22 version of him looks like it was a flash. Meanwhile Marcus is getting high mileage, and it looks like Al is getting close to his expiration date. So if they are able to find a Big that fits that helps solve a lot of potential age-related issues going forward the next few years.
 

nighthob

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So... you're saying teams only value their own role players?
No, I’m saying that roleplayers are really only valuable to contenders and their own teams. People fantasizing about young teams paying a premium to get Marcus to “change their culture” (while saying out the other side of their mouth that Boston needs to get rid of him because he’s “destroying the culture”) need to look at the contenders around the league that might need him and look at the cruft on their roster. That’s what you’re getting for Marcus.
 

nighthob

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You want to have a deep and balanced team to get you through the season and not have your starters play big minutes, but if the C's aren't going to play Grant in the playoffs, how much do you really want to spend on the guy? Honest question. I don't know the answer. Maybe the C's played the only 3 teams he didn't match up well against, but if they aren't going to play him when it matters most, are the C's better off trying to find a S&T for him?
In theory I agree with this, but if Boston’s past the second tax apron they can’t get anything but picks for him. And then you have to trade a different player with more picks to replace him. It’s a dilemma. It’s why I think the most likely result is that they extend JB for something less than 35% but more than 30% so that they have the option of moving him for a haul next summer (because Brown with 4 years of control is an insanely valuable trade chip).
 

teddykgb

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No, I’m saying that roleplayers are really only valuable to contenders and their own teams. People fantasizing about young teams paying a premium to get Marcus to “change their culture” (while saying out the other side of their mouth that Boston needs to get rid of him because he’s “destroying the culture”) need to look at the contenders around the league that might need him and look at the cruft on their roster. That’s what you’re getting for Marcus.
I think you call up Houston and see if Ime wants a veteran voice who knows his methods to kickstart his time there. Ainge was always big into Smart as well. It’s narrow but there are teams who probably will value Smart. Whether there’s value for both sides I don’t know but his culture infusion can make sense on a team which isn’t at our level
 

nighthob

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Sometimes you just need to move on from the player, no matter how little you get in return. Smart is the alpha on this team and that cannot continue if they are ever going to win. Smart is not likely to take a step back, so the only way that Tatum or Brown can take that role is for Smart to play somewhere else.
I mean Smart and White were in a virtual tie at 4/5 in terms of FGA/g and Usage%. Clearly the problem is AlphaMarcus. LOL

Smart’s value to Boston is that he’s happy to not shoot the ball at all unless it’s necessary and doesn’t hesitate when he has to shoot.There’s value in that for Boston. Just not the sort of value that’s convertible into the “big athletic wing” or “mobile big” of people’s dreams.

Trade Smart and TL. For a more reliable athletic big. Trade PP for an athletic wing, give his small amount of minutes to JD. Say thanks and Ditch Gallo, Muscala and Blake and look for the next set of ring chasers.
THEY may be the most valuable commodity with the new CBA coming.
Clearly if I’m looking to trade an athletic wing the return I’m looking for is a slow footed 6’ tall SG.
 

nighthob

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I think you call up Houston and see if Ime wants a veteran voice who knows his methods to kickstart his time there. Ainge was always big into Smart as well. It’s narrow but there are teams who probably will value Smart. Whether there’s value for both sides I don’t know but his culture infusion can make sense on a team which isn’t at our level
People need to get over the whole “culture change” fantasy. Guys like Kevin Garnett change the culture, not because of their personalities, but because they’re superstars that play the game like that. Marcus is a maniac, but he’s also a role player, and other players just tune them out. So Houston will ask if they’re open to a Brown trade and then hang up when the answer is “Probably not”.
 

Cellar-Door

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When is the last time a team who made it to game 7 of the conference finals blew it up not due to age or money issues? I can't remember anything recent and I doubt the Celtics are going to be any different. Anyone who is voting for major roster changes had a better chance with a sweep but winning 3 games this series had to have shut down any possibility that the people who feel there is something wrong with the foundation of the roster will get their wish for big changes. Boston is still the top dog in the East and there will be some on paper moves that keeps them there to have another legitimate shot at at title and as a non-Celtics fan, that's still scary.

If the Heat beat Denver, do you feel better about taking them to 7 games and less likely to want to move Brown?
I mean, you're tightening the sample to basically nothing by saying went to game 7 of the conference finals... only 2 teams a year lose in the conference finals, few of those go 7. The other issue, is the reasons you make major changes to a playoff team usually come down to a few things.... money and feeling you peaked. Some teams get there and have no longer term financial concerns, most teams aren't contending a bunch of years in a row but not getting over the hump.

Not talking game 7, but the Bucks lost the 2019 ECF, and promptly traded their 3rd and 4th best players (plus picks) to get Jrue.


No, I’m saying that roleplayers are really only valuable to contenders and their own teams. People fantasizing about young teams paying a premium to get Marcus to “change their culture” (while saying out the other side of their mouth that Boston needs to get rid of him because he’s “destroying the culture”) need to look at the contenders around the league that might need him and look at the cruft on their roster. That’s what you’re getting for Marcus.
I mean the much more likely scenario is you're trading Marcus to a contender for a pick and filler, then trading the pick and either the same filler or your own to a team that wants to rebuild for their roleplayer that only contenders want.

Didn't get too far into the contract weeds, but an example might be something like Sending Marcus to the Knicks for a pick and Fournier's expiring then shipping that to a team like UTA for someone like Olynyk and Gay or DET for Burks and Fill (I'm sure there is a better example but no time to scour the matching salaries.)
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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In theory I agree with this, but if Boston’s past the second tax apron they can’t get anything but picks for him. And then you have to trade a different player with more picks to replace him. It’s a dilemma. It’s why I think the most likely result is that they extend JB for something less than 35% but more than 30% so that they have the option of moving him for a haul next summer (because Brown with 4 years of control is an insanely valuable trade chip).
Appreciate the insight. I was not familiar with the tax apron implications and limitations on the C's ability to deal him. Thanks. So we'd be looking at something like Grant for a late 1st, package that pick with Marcus for an athletic wing who can score or a big to replace Grant's minutes? Yeah, definitely complicated.

And I agree with you on Brown. That's an extremely valuable trade chip but I like that idea if they run it back and determine that a JT/JB combo isn't going to bring a championship.
 

jmcc5400

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I think you call up Houston and see if Ime wants a veteran voice who knows his methods to kickstart his time there. Ainge was always big into Smart as well. It’s narrow but there are teams who probably will value Smart. Whether there’s value for both sides I don’t know but his culture infusion can make sense on a team which isn’t at our level
What is Houston giving you (or a third team) that you want? https://www.spotrac.com/nba/houston-rockets/cap/

You can do the same exercise with Utah. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/cap/
 

NomarsFool

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How many max eligible players have NOT been offered one?

How many max eligible players have been offered one, but the player declined?

How many max eligible players have signed for something LESS than the max?

Just gauging Brown’s persona from afar, I think he would never accept less than the max and even offering less than the max could sour the relationship