It got us Kedrick BrownWhy would a team make a promise to someone to draft them? What does it benefit the team?
It got us Kedrick BrownWhy would a team make a promise to someone to draft them? What does it benefit the team?
And Orien GreeneIt got us Kedrick Brown
And got us JR Giddens instead of DeAndre Jordan.It got us Kedrick Brown
Where did you hear that the Celtics made a promise to Giddens? First I've heard of it. Geez, I would have settled for Goran Dragic or even Luc Mbah a Moute.And got us JR Giddens instead of DeAndre Jordan.
First I've heard that too. I thought Giddens was a "take the highest ranked guy still available" pick.Where did you hear that the Celtics made a promise to Giddens? First I've heard of it. Geez, I would have settled for Goran Dragic or even Luc Mbah a Moute.
Wallace deserves a punch in his mouth for that whole draft. I hate that guy.It got us Kedrick Brown
The worst part of it was that the next year, when Boston dealt for Tony Delk and Rodney Rodgers, the Suns were willing to take Brown and Forte in the deal. But Wallace insisted on dealing Joe Johnson instead.Wallace deserves a punch in his mouth for that whole draft. I hate that guy.
Giddens wasn't the highest ranked guy still available so much as he was the type of guard that Ainge likes to draft, long, strong, and athletic.First I've heard that too. I thought Giddens was a "take the highest ranked guy still available" pick.
Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.Wallace deserves a punch in his mouth for that whole draft. I hate that guy.
I have heard the Red story with Forte. Wallace had the steering wheel. His list of shit is a mile long, even if you think that they didn't have the juice to take their guy.Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.
Auerbach didn't have the power to overrule anyone in 2001. His position with the franchise was ceremonial in 2001 and had been for years. Boston had made promises to both Parker and Gilbert Arenas, thinking that only one of them would be available. But ended up taking Forte anyway since Wallace clearly had him higher on his personal list.Forte was Auerbach's mistake. Wallace and everyone else in the organization wanted Tony Parker after he had an outstanding workout. But Forte had played at DeMatha for Auerbach's friend Morgan Wootten, and Auerbach overruled Wallace.
Pitino publicly defrocked Red for this exact reason--so he wouldn't interfere. It was a huge deal at the time.I don't think Wallace had the steering wheel at that point. Auerbach was the president of the Celtics and a legend. Wallace was the former editor of a scouting yearbook who had been brought in along with Jim O'Brien by Pitino, who had just been fired. Wallace did not have either the stature or the job security to overrule Auerbach.
The Pheonix trade is entirely on Wallace-- and on O'Brien who wanted to replace his rookies with veterans. But drafting Forte was not his mistake.
This exactlyIt was widely known that Auerbach wanted the Celtics to draft Forte. Red's position was entirely that of a figurehead at the time, and so Chris Wallace should rightfully get the blame, as he could have (and should have) ignored Red. But the fact remains that Auerbach still wanted Forte; that's not a BS story.
Right, that's what the rest of us have been saying. Red had been in a ceremonial position since the hiring of Pitino, and it was Wallace's job as the general manager to pick the guys he wanted.It was widely known that Auerbach wanted the Celtics to draft Forte. Red's position was entirely that of a figurehead at the time, and so Chris Wallace should rightfully get the blame, as he could have (and should have) ignored Red. But the fact remains that Auerbach still wanted Forte; that's not a BS story.
Wallace shouldn't have an NBA job today. There are a few people in this forum more deserving (not I), not just based on that shitty draft. But when I look at the great GM squanders of all time, that draft is right there with the best of them (and the subsequent trading of Johnson over Forte/Brown).
A bit different to compare posters here to Danny Ainge than to Wallace.People always say that but I doubt it very much. Everyone on this board would probably make a shit GM, especially when it comes to drafting players. Just look at the draft threads for proof of that. I mean, everyone says they would have drafted Giannis and all that, and maybe they would have, but they probably ignore when they wanted Dante Exum or Markelle Fultz.
90% of this board wanted Kris Dunn over Jaylen Brown.
Exactly.A bit different to compare posters here to Danny Ainge than to Wallace.
Yeah, the corporate figurehead of a franchise that Paul Gaston was trying to sell. In fact Pond was the finance guy who took the Celtics private so that the franchise could be sold to the Grousbecks. If Auerbach had gone to the Gastons, cigar in hand, and said, "This young pup Wallace doesn't know what he is doing. It;'s him or me," what do you think would have happened?Auerbach, literally, had no power to fire him. Rich Pond was running the franchise then, and he was Wallace’s boss, not the 84 year old guy that had been a corporate figurehead for years by then.
In fairness Wallace has been very good at what he's actually in the NBA to do, namely field relatively inexpensive competitive teams. You don't hire Wallace because you have ambitions of winning a title, you hire him because you want your team to make the playoffs without paying luxury taxes.Wallace shouldn't have an NBA job today. There are a few people in this forum more deserving (not I), not just based on that shitty draft. But when I look at the great GM squanders of all time, that draft is right there with the best of them (and the subsequent trading of Johnson over Forte/Brown).
So I did not know this history when I opened this thread -- but how do you reconcile "Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then" with that whole John Feinstein interview posted upthread where Red is quoted explaining what he, you know, had to do with the franchise then?You're again mistaken, they were trying to line up the new cable deal in 2001. That was the actual prerequisite to putting the team on the market, not placating the 84 year old man that wasn't living in Boston at the time.
Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then. He made a few public appearances per year. And if the 84 year old had gone to Thanks Dad! and demanded that Wallace be fired Thanks Dad! would have laughed and told him to go talk to the guy running the team.
Wallace drafted Forte because he had him higher on his prospect list than either of the two guys that he'd made promises to. And that was Wallace all over. Portland had made a large offer for Boston's second pick back before the '01 draft in order to nab Brown, but he turned that down too because he had Brown very highly rated.
And the killer mistake wasn't even picking Forte per se, it was failing to bundle his two guys for the roleplayers the '02 team needed when Phoenix asked for them.
Ask HRB to tell you his draft night 2001 story some time. I ruined my TV that night throwing a can of Murphy's at it in ragestration (the beer spray wrecked havoc with the electronics).I went to see Forte in his first Summer League game at UMass-Boston. He had a particularly crappy game and cried into the chest of Bill Guthridge in the hallway. I knew then and there that we were screwed.
Because He had been removed from any and all day to day management of the team by Pitino, and Thanks Dad! appointed Rich Pond to run the team when Pitino told them he was leaving. So, yes, I take the word of the org over the memories of a then 86 year old. Those memories are always going to be cloudy (dealing with an 81 year old father I'm well aware of the drill). I've no doubt that he recommended Forte to Wallace, but if Wallace didn't have Forte rated over the two guys he'd made promises to (Parker and Arenas) then he wouldn't have been the pick period.So I did not know this history when I opened this thread -- but how do you reconcile "Red, literally, had nothing to do with the franchise by then" with that whole John Feinstein interview posted upthread where Red is quoted explaining what he, you know, had to do with the franchise then?
HRB,Ask HRB to tell you his draft night 2001 story some time. I ruined my TV that night throwing a can of Murphy's at it in ragestration (the beer spray wrecked havoc with the electronics).
Troy Murphys?Ask HRB to tell you his draft night 2001 story some time. I ruined my TV that night throwing a can of Murphy's at it in ragestration (the beer spray wrecked havoc with the electronics).
I came here to post similar about Wallace. He accomplished in Boston exactly what he was hired to do (the Phoenix deal was brilliant in achieving its objectives even if he gave up the wrong rookie). His work here mastering the financial side of the business is why owners and Presidents tools notice as Jerry West, with Heisley's blessing, hired him in the late 2000's. Wallace assembled that Memphis playoff team on a shoestring budget in acquiring Gasol, Z-Bo, Conley and Tony Allen.In fairness Wallace has been very good at what he's actually in the NBA to do, namely field relatively inexpensive competitive teams. You don't hire Wallace because you have ambitions of winning a title, you hire him because you want your team to make the playoffs without paying luxury taxes.
Even the trade widely regarded as his second worst (the Vin Baker deal) made Thanks Dad! some $12-$15 million (figuring in the luxury taxes saved and the money Boston collected from the then valuable luxury tax disbursement).
And left the team in such a mess that it took Ainge years to rebuild.I came here to post similar about Wallace. He accomplished in Boston exactly what he was hired to do (the Phoenix deal was brilliant in achieving its objectives even if he gave up the wrong rookie). His work here mastering the financial side of the business is why owners and Presidents tools notice as Jerry West, with Heisley's blessing, hired him in the late 2000's. Wallace assembled that Memphis playoff team on a shoestring budget in acquiring Gasol, Z-Bo, Conley and Tony Allen.
That had nothing to do with his job description. Gaston was selling the team and it was all about the luxury tax, us being hampered with awful long term contracts, and the timeline with him selling the team. There was zero initiative to leave the roster in any particular shape after the sale of the franchise. Jerry West and others recognized this......it's a bitter pill to swallow for some as a Celtics fan but these were the business realities at the time. Wallace massively succeeded at what he was hired to do here. nighthob discussed this upthread.And left the team in such a mess that it took Ainge years to rebuild.
It's amazing to note that such a storied franchise has had a history of such awful owners. Gaston was the worst owner a fan would want to have running their team; I seem to recall that he mandated that the team play with 2 open roster spots in order to save money. And he was by no means the worst owner in Celtics history.That had nothing to do with his job description. Gaston was selling the team and it was all about the luxury tax, us being hampered with awful long term contracts, and the timeline with him selling the team. There was zero initiative to leave the roster in any particular shape after the sale of the franchise. Jerry West and others recognized this......it's a bitter pill to swallow for some as a Celtics fan but these were the business realities at the time. Wallace massively succeeded at what he was hired to do here. nighthob discussed this upthread.
I've shared this many times here, at the old ChairChuckers (whatever happened to SpacemansGerbil?), and Stuckon16/CelticsNuts but here goes...….HRB,
The floor is yours...
Thanks Dad! Was probably more damaging than John Y Brown by virtue of having built a reputation amongst agents and players as Sterling East in the midst of the free agent era, which made the Celtics anathema for years. It took Kevin Garnett in his prime to erase that stain from the franchise.It's amazing to note that such a storied franchise has had a history of such awful owners. Gaston was the worst owner a fan would want to have running their team; I seem to recall that he mandated that the team play with 2 open roster spots in order to save money. And he was by no means the worst owner in Celtics history.
Sorry, I cannot take credit for the final bit. That goes to nighthob. Then again, I recall Irv Levin nearly moving the team west after they won the title in 1976, and then handing the franchise to John Y Brown. At least Brown didn't last long; ThanksDad! stuck around long enough to leave things a real mess that took years to recover from.Could someone tell me where this thread began. It seems like it was broken off from another thread but is there any reason why we are talking about Chris Wallace all of a sudden? What has he done to deserve his own thread? On a different topic who would be the worst Celtic owner of all time? I was ready to nominate Gov. John Brown but Lexaragorge makes a compelling case for ThanksDad Gaston as the worst owner.
I'll give Levin a pass because the mistake he made in the franchise swap set up the 80s dynasty. Similarly I give John Y a pass because as bad as the McAdoo trade was (it did lead to the Season That Shall Not Be Named™), it set Boston up for the Parish/McHale trade.Sorry, I cannot take credit for the final bit. That goes to nighthob. Then again, I recall Irv Levin nearly moving the team west after they won the title in 1976, and then handing the franchise to John Y Brown. At least Brown didn't last long; ThanksDad! stuck around long enough to leave things a real mess that took years to recover from.