The Cowens Tangent

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If we are going to shoot the moon for high-end comps for Grant, how about going back to the roaring 70’s and Big Red himself, Dave Cowens. Similarly undersized C at 6’-8”, more than held his own against Kareem, Walton, etc. Fun but of NBA trivia found in looking up Cowens stats: he’s one of only six players in NBA history to lead his team over a single season in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.
 

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If we are going to shoot the moon for high-end comps for Grant, how about going back to the roaring 70’s and Big Red himself, Dave Cowens. Similarly undersized C at 6’-8”, more than held his own against Kareem, Walton, etc. Fun but of NBA trivia found in looking up Cowens stats: he’s one of only six players in NBA history to lead his team over a single season in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.
Who’s the last one?
 

chilidawg

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If we are going to shoot the moon for high-end comps for Grant, how about going back to the roaring 70’s and Big Red himself, Dave Cowens. Similarly undersized C at 6’-8”, more than held his own against Kareem, Walton, etc. Fun but of NBA trivia found in looking up Cowens stats: he’s one of only six players in NBA history to lead his team over a single season in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.
Wow, guy plays 3 games and you're comparing him to Dave Cowens. Sacrilege.
 

reggiecleveland

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Wow, guy plays 3 games and you're comparing him to Dave Cowens. Sacrilege.
If time machine basketballl ever happens Cowens would be one of the first guys I would dial up and throw into an NBA camp because of the divided opinions. Lots of guys say he was only good in his era, but other compare him to Bird saying as a non leaping white guy he is underrated and point to how he did against Kareem and other elite centers.

My thoughts is Cowens would be quite good in today's positionless game since he was an all round guy, a player more than a center or a forward.
 

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If time machine basketballl ever happens Cowens would be one of the first guys I would dial up and throw into an NBA camp because of the divided opinions. Lots of guys say he was only good in his era, but other compare him to Bird saying as a non leaping white guy he is underrated and point to how he did against Kareem and other elite centers.

My thoughts is Cowens would be quite good in today's positionless game since he was an all round guy, a player more than a center or a forward.
Non-leaping white guy? Cowens was athletic by any standards. That's what allowed him to keep up bigger centers. He wasn't some block of granite like Wes Unseld.
 

reggiecleveland

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Non-leaping white guy? Cowens was athletic by any standards. That's what allowed him to keep up bigger centers. He wasn't some block of granite like Wes Unseld.
I agree. Just the stereotype of the white player. By NBA standards he was very strong and quick and an average jumper. I had three pages of young guys raking me over the coals for saying bird was not a bad athlete. Cowens wasn't a big dunker, compared to today's guys, so younger people write him off.
 

jmcc5400

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I agree. Just the stereotype of the white player. By NBA standards he was very strong and quick and an average jumper. I had three pages of young guys raking me over the coals for saying bird was not a bad athlete. Cowens wasn't a big dunker, compared to today's guys, so younger people write him off.
Not to extend the Cowens tangent, but I dont have much doubt he would have developed three point range in today's game. He had a soft touch.
 

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Not to extend the Cowens tangent, but I dont have much doubt he would have developed three point range in today's game. He had a soft touch.
I am happy to extend any Cowens tangent and agree. As an undersized center (6'9"), he got his points from mid-range, and then when some lumbering Artis Gilmore type left the paint to challenge the jumper, Cowens would drive and finish. In 2019, instead of taking 15 footers, Cowens would be draining threes. Of all the great 70's non-Kareem big men (Elvin Hayes, Paul Silas, Walton, Dan Issel) I think Cowens would have transitioned best to the current style of play.

As for Grant Williams, I hope he gets a shot. I love his energy, but he needs to give opponents a reason to guard him outside. Maybe Cowens can come in and show him some moves?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I am happy to extend any Cowens tangent and agree. As an undersized center (6'9"), he got his points from mid-range, and then when some lumbering Artis Gilmore type left the paint to challenge the jumper, Cowens would drive and finish. In 2019, instead of taking 15 footers, Cowens would be draining threes. Of all the great 70's non-Kareem big men (Elvin Hayes, Paul Silas, Walton, Dan Issel) I think Cowens would have transitioned best to the current style of play.
Agree that Cowens would be highly sought after in today's game - he would be a bigger Draymond with a consistent jump shot and able to guard multiple positions - but I believe Hayes and Walton would still be superstars (and Walton would benefit not to have go through some of the pounding) and Issel would have thrived.

I mean Jokic is amazing and everything but Walton was just as good a passer plus he was a great defender.

I didn't get to see a lot of Hayes but anyone who averages basically 20+ /10+ for 12 straight seasons plus gets voted onto 2 all-defensive teams plus led the league in DRbg% plus once averaged almost 3 blocks a game is still going to be pretty good in today's game - even if he probably never developed a 3P jump shot.

And finally, Issel could - he was all-ABA and that's the kind of game that the modern game is. He could handle the ball and I'm sure he would have extended his jump shot to 3P range in today's game. He's like the perfect modern center on the offensive end.
 

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I remember seeing a TV feature with Rick Barry. He was with Artis Gilmore, at the Hall of Fame. Gilmore was at the end of his long career, and Barry had been out of the game for a bit. They were shooting at a rim, while talking. Barry, one of the best shooters of all time, barely made any shots, but active NBA player Gilmore made like all of his.

Gilmore played at a time where players would try to get as close to the rim before shooting. If he was coming up today, I wouldn't be surprised if he could step out and shoot the long ball. I saw Kevin McHale as a summer camp right before he started taking any threes, probably around 1989-1990. He was shooting threes from the top off the key, and made 20 in a row.

Back in the day, NBA greats became good mid-range shooters through repetition. No reason to think they wouldn't have been able to shoot the three if they trained for it. Also, with the no hand checking rules we have today, and with the threat of the threeball, imagine how unstoppable some of them would be, like Tiny, or Maravich.

One last story about how old time basketball worked. Sidney Wicks went to John Wooden and asked if he could take more outside shots, probably figuring it would help his NBA stock. Wooden told him to take ten shots from the deep corner, and if he could make all ten, he could shoot from there in games. Wicks made nine. Wooden told him that he could make 10 for 10 right near the basket, and that's what he was going to be shooting in gmes.
 

joe dokes

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Not to extend the Cowens tangent, but I dont have much doubt he would have developed three point range in today's game. He had a soft touch.
Although it might have been partly a concession to injury as he neared the tail end of things, Kevin McHale began to use the 3 pointer as a weapon.
 

TripleOT

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Although it might have been partly a concession to injury as he neared the tail end of things, Kevin McHale began to use the 3 pointer as a weapon.
I remembered him using the three more at the end of his career, but when I looked it up, he took 137 threes over four seasons and 277 games. His first nine seasons he took only 20 threes.

As an aside, James Harden has made more threes in his first 14 games this season than the entire Celtics team made for the season in Mchale's rookie year, 68 to 65.
 

NomarsFool

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McHale started putting up threes towards the end of his career, but I guess it was still pretty low volume when I look at the numbers. About 1/4 of Horford, even in his highest season.
 

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Many NBA coaches regarded the trey as an ABA gimmick, like the red, white and blue ball. And even in the ABA, big men hardly shot them at all.
 

jimv

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Many NBA coaches regarded the trey as an ABA gimmick, like the red, white and blue ball. And even in the ABA, big men hardly shot them at all.
Cs fans of a certain age will recall 7 foot Brad Lohaus launching the occasional 3 pointer usually followed by KC Jones wincing in pain and Brad returning to the bench.
 

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Cs fans of a certain age will recall 7 foot Brad Lohaus launching the occasional 3 pointer usually followed by KC Jones wincing in pain and Brad returning to the bench.
And then Brad being shipped off to Sacramento (part of the Ainge trade) in exchange for Joe Kleine -- the prototypical lumbering big man.

As to Cowens, he somehow pulled down a ton of rebounds while barely leaving the floor. In this clip he just crashes the boards like a madman and anticipates the carom. Rodmanesque.

 
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lexrageorge

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Cowens was definitely a player that was greater than the sum of his parts. He definitely possessed above average athleticism at the peak of his playing days. And there was a lot of Marcus Smart in him defensively.

He definitely would have developed a 3 point shot in the modern era. His FT% did climb from the low 70's at the early part of his career to the low 80's, and he had a nice mid-range game, so I have no doubt he would have been able to hit 3's.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Many NBA coaches regarded the trey as an ABA gimmick, like the red, white and blue ball. And even in the ABA, big men hardly shot them at all.
True. To bring two themes together, even Dan Issel, who had a great jumper, went 0-15 / 3-11 / 3-15 / 3/17 / 0-5 in his first five years with KY in the ABA.

BTW, here's a great article on Issel from SI Vault. Talk about how the NBA has changed: 6'9" /240 was considered undersized to play center.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Cs fans of a certain age will recall 7 foot Brad Lohaus launching the occasional 3 pointer usually followed by KC Jones wincing in pain and Brad returning to the bench.
Funny Lohaus shot 3Ps at a .361 clip for his career but never averaged more than 3 attempts per game. Lohaus earned $5.5M in his career. He would get at least 10 times that in today's NBA.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And then Brad being shipped off to Sacramento (part of the Ainge trade) in exchange for Joe Kleine -- the prototypical lumbering big man.

As to Cowens, he somehow pulled down a ton or rebounds while barely leaving the floor. In this clip he just crashes the boards like a madman and anticipates the carom. Rodmanesque.

He was really strong for his era. Apparently, he started weight training at college (FSU) well before it was the vogue. https://www.investors.com/news/management/leaders-and-success/dave-cowens-went-to-the-mat-for-the-boston-celtics-and-won-it-all/
 

reggiecleveland

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I am happy to extend any Cowens tangent and agree. As an undersized center (6'9"), he got his points from mid-range, and then when some lumbering Artis Gilmore type left the paint to challenge the jumper, Cowens would drive and finish. In 2019, instead of taking 15 footers, Cowens would be draining threes. Of all the great 70's non-Kareem big men (Elvin Hayes, Paul Silas, Walton, Dan Issel) I think Cowens would have transitioned best to the current style of play.

As for Grant Williams, I hope he gets a shot. I love his energy, but he needs to give opponents a reason to guard him outside. Maybe Cowens can come in and show him some moves?
Bob Macadoo needs to be on that list.
 

bankshot1

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I just saw this thread, so a little late to the party,

No offense to the OP (as amended) or Grant Williams, but Cowens was one of the greatest Celtics of all-time. He was an amazing player who never gave up on a board against bigger centers or a getting a loose ball through pure hustle and wanting it more. You want a Celts comp from the 70S, maybe Paul Silas. a great defensive physical forward who could pound the boards and score a dozen points..
 

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You want a Celts comp from the 70S, maybe Paul Silas. a great defensive physical forward who could pound the boards and score a dozen points..
Paul Silas was only 6'7" (almost as short as Grant Williams), and he couldn't jump even as high as Cowens, but he was unparalleled at establishing position on the offensive boards, and using his low center of gravity to root post players off their spot and out of their comfort zone (like Marcus Smart). In the 1974 Finals game 7, Cowens fronted Kareem, Silas played behind Kareem, and Cornell Warner muffed his opportunity to become a household name.
 

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Paul Silas was only 6'7" (almost as short as Grant Williams), and he couldn't jump even as high as Cowens, but he was unparalleled at establishing position on the offensive boards, and using his low center of gravity to root post players off their spot and out of their comfort zone (like Marcus Smart). In the 1974 Finals game 7, Cowens fronted Kareem, Silas played behind Kareem, and Cornell Warner muffed his opportunity to become a household name.
I think he was comparing Tennessee Williams to Silas.
 

bankshot1

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Paul Silas was only 6'7" (almost as short as Grant Williams), and he couldn't jump even as high as Cowens, but he was unparalleled at establishing position on the offensive boards, and using his low center of gravity to root post players off their spot and out of their comfort zone (like Marcus Smart). In the 1974 Finals game 7, Cowens fronted Kareem, Silas played behind Kareem, and Cornell Warner muffed his opportunity to become a household name.
My suggested comp was Williams to Silas, as opposed to the OP's Willams to Cowens, which I think unrealistic, as Cowens was an all-time great NBA player, and I don't see the same skill set in Williams. If Williams turns into a player as accomplished as Silas, he will be a steal.