The Game Ball Thread: Week 14 at the Chargers

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Brady had been crushed in successive snaps before the Gronkowski under throw. I wonder if that had something to do.

 
He had a guy in his face on that throw and thus didn't have enough muscle behind the throw. That made it doubly exasperating since Brady of course KNEW that he couldn't step into it and that any underthrow would result in a pick because of the way Gronk was open.
 
Bad decision by the QB. They had a TO left, even if he had to eat the ball they'd be able to kick a FG.

 

[Phragle]

Sorry again, not being clear today.

No, the INT was clearly just an underthrown ball.

I was curious about the rest of the game, i.e. when Brady tried to force the ball in the end zone to Vereen (?) who was blanketed.

 

Everyone was blanketed on the Vereen pass at 7:47

 
Gronk was open on the pick. Brady hesitated, patted the ball, and by then was out of time and couldn't set his feet before the throw. 

 

[DJnVa]

 
That's what I was saying.  
 
I wonder if the D is intentionally baiting Brady, with "sure Gronk might beat the coverage, but we're bringing an extra man up the middle...can you get the pass out fast enough?"  
 
 

 

I don't think the idea of baiting the QB works when if Brady makes the right pass, it's a relatively easy TD. Baiting works when someone you think is open isn't. Gronk was open.

 

[Stitch01]

Eric Wilbur called out McDaniels today.  Hopefully SJH hasn't committed seppuku

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The first rule about Eric Wilbur is we don't talk about Eric Wilbur.

 

[Curt S Loew]

The first rule about Eric Wilbur is we don't talk about Eric Wilbur.

6 minutes.  You're slipping.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I have to work every once in a while, people!

 

[Marciano490]

In the absence of a "Ask Dumb Questions About Football" thread, why don't QB's ever start plays when the defense is still setting up?  Is there some sort of gentlement's agreement?  At least watching on TV, it seems that defensive linemen are very slow to get into their set positions and the offense is frequently ready to go before their counterparts on the other side of the ball.  I know part of it is the QB reading the defense and making adjustments, and I'm sure the defense is masking coverages and blitzes, too, but so often it looks like they are loafing into position because they know they're not going to be taken unawares by a fast snap.  Obviously, it'd only work once a game, but why doesn't it happen more?

 

[Jnai]

In the absence of a "Ask Dumb Questions About Football" thread, why don't QB's ever start plays when the defense is still setting up?  Is there some sort of gentlement's agreement?  At least watching on TV, it seems that defensive linemen are very slow to get into their set positions and the offense is frequently ready to go before their counterparts on the other side of the ball.  I know part of it is the QB reading the defense and making adjustments, and I'm sure the defense is masking coverages and blitzes, too, but so often it looks like they are loafing into position because they know they're not going to be taken unawares by a fast snap.  Obviously, it'd only work once a game, but why doesn't it happen more?

 
The Patriots did this quite frequently in the hurry up, especially on the goal line after a big play, where the defense wants to sub players. See the Houston games a few years ago.

 

[lexrageorge]

In the absence of a "Ask Dumb Questions About Football" thread, why don't QB's ever start plays when the defense is still setting up?  Is there some sort of gentlement's agreement?  At least watching on TV, it seems that defensive linemen are very slow to get into their set positions and the offense is frequently ready to go before their counterparts on the other side of the ball.  I know part of it is the QB reading the defense and making adjustments, and I'm sure the defense is masking coverages and blitzes, too, but so often it looks like they are loafing into position because they know they're not going to be taken unawares by a fast snap.  Obviously, it'd only work once a game, but why doesn't it happen more?

I have seen a quick snap from time to time, so there's no "gentleman's agreement".  There is a rule regarding substitutions in that the offense has to give the defense a chance to do their own substitutions.  But that's a bit different than the scenario you're describing.  I think the issue with the quick snap is that the QB wants to do his audibles, as he is the only one with a true birds-eye view of the defensive formation pre-snap.  Those audibles sometimes result in line calls for the blocking assignments.  Basically, there's a lot that goes into running a play.  

 

[phenweigh]

Although, wasn't there a different shot they had, of a different cheerleader, who shared certain key features with her.  Think it was earlier in the game.  We ought to get a shot of that one too, just for comparison's sake.

 
My opinion is that the certain key features are made memorable by a kind of push-up bra incorporated into the cheerleader uniform.  So I suspect that all the cheerleaders  feature the same look.
 
Regarding the game itself, it seems Patricia (with input from BB) made sure we didn't see Nink trying valiently but unsuccessfully attempt to cover a speedster out of the backfield.  Either that, or the Chargers don't have the knack for forcing those type of mismatches that the Packers did.

 

[am_dial]

In the absence of a "Ask Dumb Questions About Football" thread, why don't QB's ever start plays when the defense is still setting up?  Is there some sort of gentlement's agreement?  At least watching on TV, it seems that defensive linemen are very slow to get into their set positions and the offense is frequently ready to go before their counterparts on the other side of the ball.  I know part of it is the QB reading the defense and making adjustments, and I'm sure the defense is masking coverages and blitzes, too, but so often it looks like they are loafing into position because they know they're not going to be taken unawares by a fast snap.  Obviously, it'd only work once a game, but why doesn't it happen more?

 
To follow up on a few others' posts, it used to be easier to do quick-snap as part of a hurry-up offense, but the NFL recently changed the rules and now require the refs to set the ball pre-snap. You'll often see one of them stand over the ball briefly before allowing the center to grab it.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

No one works harder or cares more than Brady.

 
To wit... because that Vine shouldn't be left out of our gamethread arsenal.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

To follow up on a few others' posts, it used to be easier to do quick-snap as part of a hurry-up offense, but the NFL recently changed the rules and now require the refs to set the ball pre-snap. You'll often see one of them stand over the ball briefly before allowing the center to grab it.

That explains a few weeks ago when the Pats were trying to go hurry up an official kept getting between Brady and the center. Thank you.

 

[simplyeric]

 
I don't think the idea of baiting the QB works when if Brady makes the right pass, it's a relatively easy TD. Baiting works when someone you think is open isn't. Gronk was open.

 
Isn't that often what a big blitz is: a gamble that you can get to the QB (even TB) before he can find his receiver or deliver the ball?

 

[DJnVa]

 
Isn't that often what a big blitz is: a gamble that you can get to the QB (even TB) before he can find his receiver or deliver the ball?

 
Yes--but I think we're just talking semantics. What you're talking about, to me, is simply what a blitz is--getting to QB before he can find the opening caused by the blitz. Baiting, again, to me, is trying to fool the QB that a receiver is open when the DB is actually waiting specifically for the throw.

 

[Bongorific]

Wrong thread.

 

[simplyeric]

 
Yes--but I think we're just talking semantics. What you're talking about, to me, is simply what a blitz is--getting to QB before he can find the opening caused by the blitz. Baiting, again, to me, is trying to fool the QB that a receiver is open when the DB is actually waiting specifically for the throw.

Oh yeah I didn't mean that it was a trick. Just a pure 'do you feel lucky' play. I think Brady knows exactly what's happening, and I think the D knows he knows.

 

[bakahump]

In the absence of a "Ask Dumb Questions About Football" thread, why don't QB's ever start plays when the defense is still setting up?  Is there some sort of gentlement's agreement?  At least watching on TV, it seems that defensive linemen are very slow to get into their set positions and the offense is frequently ready to go before their counterparts on the other side of the ball.  I know part of it is the QB reading the defense and making adjustments, and I'm sure the defense is masking coverages and blitzes, too, but so often it looks like they are loafing into position because they know they're not going to be taken unawares by a fast snap.  Obviously, it'd only work once a game, but why doesn't it happen more?

I see Marciano490s questions and raise a....
 
Why dont Qbs Snap the Ball while the MLB is wandering around positioning people and making gestures.  I have often see a LB (or DL) with there back turned relaying a signal. Also you see one of the Safetys coming in to communicate with the LB.   
 
Sure you might only buy .5 or a full second while they realize the balls is snapped and rush to their assigned spot.  but we all know that can be a HUGE advantage.
 
Also what about DL standing upright (before they assume thier 3pt) or while kneeling (in there 3pt and stealing a little breather before the snap).
 
Like M490 said it might only work 1 or twice a game....but its something the offense could plan for (as I assume the Snap count would have to be VERY short or maybe a trigger word to preempt the "normal" snap count.)
 
Maybe its because  the pats have so much motion?  They obviously cant snap it while Edelmen/Gronk/Vereen is moving around.

 

[Stitch01]

Don't the Pats do this, particularly near the goal line, on a regular basis?

 

[simplyeric]

I see Marciano490s questions and raise a....
 
Why dont Qbs Snap the Ball while the MLB is wandering around positioning people and making gestures.  I have often see a LB (or DL) with there back turned relaying a signal. Also you see one of the Safetys coming in to communicate with the LB.   
 
Sure you might only buy .5 or a full second while they realize the balls is snapped and rush to their assigned spot.  but we all know that can be a HUGE advantage.
 
Also what about DL standing upright (before they assume thier 3pt) or while kneeling (in there 3pt and stealing a little breather before the snap).
 
Like M490 said it might only work 1 or twice a game....but its something the offense could plan for (as I assume the Snap count would have to be VERY short or maybe a trigger word to preempt the "normal" snap count.)
 
Maybe its because  the pats have so much motion?  They obviously cant snap it while Edelmen/Gronk/Vereen is moving around.

 
 
Maybe the upside of this (hoping to catch the D out of position) is outdone by the downside (not giving TB a chance to read the D).
 
A well-considered play against a set defense probably (?) has a better chance of succeeding than a rushed offensive play against a not-quite-set D.
 
Also: wasn't there a team who was using a "wander around looking unprepared D", against Manning?  They would  intentional not display what kind of D they were setting up, so Manning's careful rearranging at the line would be rendered useless, because he didn't know what he was responding to.
 
I think the only time to really do the quick snap is when your offense is definitely much more prepared to go than their D, otherwise you might not be quite ready enough.

 

[bakahump]

All good points.
 
The "Goal line quick snap" is so common now thats its pretty much SOP.  I almost wonder if rushing to the line with your offense and "acting like your about to quick snap" then hard counting or keeping the defense in their 3pt for 10 + secs might be even more out of place/ confusing for the defense.
 
Your point about basically trying to be too cute is also a good point.
 
All this does amaze you (or me at least) at the "game within a game" that BB and the coaches are playing every single week.

 

[allstonite]

All good points.
 
The "Goal line quick snap" is so common now thats its pretty much SOP.  I almost wonder if rushing to the line with your offense and "acting like your about to quick snap" then hard counting or keeping the defense in their 3pt for 10 + secs might be even more out of place/ confusing for the defense.
 
Your point about basically trying to be too cute is also a good point.
 
All this does amaze you (or me at least) at the "game within a game" that BB and the coaches are playing every single week.

 
Don't the Patriots also use this but for different reasons? They rush to the line so the defense has to scramble and they can't make substitutions but then Brady will run down the play clock and make his normal presnap reads. 

 

[Stitch01]

Yes, they do, or Brady will act like he's going to snap it and then get a presnap read and make a call based on the read.

 

[crystalline]

 
 

 
Also: wasn't there a team who was using a "wander around looking unprepared D", against Manning?  They would  intentional not display what kind of D they were setting up, so Manning's careful rearranging at the line would be rendered useless, because he didn't know what he was responding to.
 

Wasn't that the Pats against the Bills running a 11 man random walk defense?

 

[Super Nomario]

I got a little deeper into Jamie Collins' game for FC: http://soshcentral.com/nfl/2014/12/10/jamie-collins-in-the-a-gap/
 
Here he just abused Chris Watt (SD's 4th-string C), who had a rough day:

 

[mascho]

Great work SN.
 
I could watch that gif of Watt stumbling backwards all day. I just might.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

Looks like Rivers could've at least thrown it away (he was outside the tackle box), until he saw Branch coming straight at him from the other side and decided, "fuck it".

 

[Mystic Merlin]

He wasn't outside the tackle box. The ball was snapped from the right hash.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

I spoke imprecisely.  Absent Alan Branch's excellent rush job, Rivers could have gotten away from Collins long enough to get outside the tackle box and throw it away without a grounding penalty.  i.e., Collins is awesome, but it took two players being awesome there to get the sack.  Collins alone wouldn't have sufficed.  Whereas, the first sack in the article is a Collins solo job - credit goes to him and the play call alone.
 
Also, on the Nink play, it looks like Watt gives a clear hands-to-the-face to Wilfork, and probably should have been flagged.  Though maybe that's just the framerate of the GIF messing with me.

 

[Super Nomario]

I spoke imprecisely.  Absent Alan Branch's excellent rush job, Rivers could have gotten away from Collins long enough to get outside the tackle box and throw it away without a grounding penalty.  i.e., Collins is awesome, but it took two players being awesome there to get the sack.  Collins alone wouldn't have sufficed.  Whereas, the first sack in the article is a Collins solo job - credit goes to him and the play call alone.

I would wager this is true of most sacks against good quarterbacks - even fairly immobile guys like Brady and Rivers can elude one guy long enough to make the pass, but when the rush penetrates in multiple areas there's nowhere to go.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

Well, except in the first example in your article.
 
Good downfield coverage helps, obviously.  All hail Revis.