The Game Ball Thread: Wk.13 at Chargers

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
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Not that anyone doubts the genius of head coach Bill Belichick, but it is amazing that the Pats are 1 game behind the Bucs right now.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
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It feels like every year the Chargers are worse than the sum of their parts.
This has been the case at least since Marty Schottenheimer's career-ending pre-game speech before the divisional playoff game against the Pats in 2006. Not sure whether the problem is Spanos or what, but there is at least an argument that Rivers would have at least as many rings as Roethlisberger if he had ever had league-average coaching given the talent he's had around him.

Maybe Archie was right about that franchise.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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I am not sure how many of you follow Star Craft and gaming in Korea but this team reminds me a little of Flash when he was taking down the Titans of SC in the late 2000's and early 2010s before people realized he was... well Flash... God of Star Craft.

Flash was known for a few things. At first people saw him as a villain known for something called cheesing or playing cheese. Cheese was an all-in strategy like a suicide rush or going for a few high tech units that could GG your opponent. Examples: The zergling rush, the dragoon rush, the mutalisk rush, the reaver drop rush, the dark templar drop/rush. He didn't always use these strategies but when he did won 1 of his 3 matches against a world-class opponent that's all the gaming world would talk about. He later stopped using those strategies completely - he didn't even need to and was much better off not doing it. Later on people saw Flash was actually great at developing his economy, winning with thinking/strategy both before the game and during, and managing/microing his units. Flash would easily get in over 200 commands per minute. Flash was a machine. Flash would adjust and destroy your strategy. He was water. He could counter the counter of your counter and he already has his units built before you think of the counter he knew you would try.

Belichick right now is zagging when people are zigging, as usual. But I bet if you gave him truth serum he would tell you he wished he had a dynamic TE and a couple of good receivers so he could have an offense that isn't so one-dimensional. It reminds me a lot of cheesing. You don't have a reliable passing attack. You know you have the personnel to run the ball effectively. I think it's telling Cam didn't pick apart this Cover 3 vanilla defense and they went, again, with a more run-heavy approach. Like we saw with vs Arizona, if you can play goal line and take away the run the Patriots are not going to beat you with the pass. With the OL, Cam, and Damien Harris this is exceptional quality cheese but it is still cheese. For a long time Georgia Tech, Army, and a small number other lesser football programs have over the years run the triple option. Why? It's different and unique so it gives you a chance to win with scheme vs an unfamiliar opponent who has better quality players than your lesser program does. It is the American College football version of Star Craft Cheese strategy.

My game-balls go to the coaching staff, ST, OL, and the best game the front 7 have shown all year. Uche showing us why they traded up for him. The young defensive core taking some serious steps to get better.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I still want to see them line up both Cam and Stiddy in the backfield and run and pass with both of them.
In my wishes, it is 2nd and goal around the 7. Then Cam flexes out wide right to a WR. With Keene then motioning back into the backfield to join White and Stiddy out of the shotgun. Harry slot left, Byrd Flanked left. I've drawn the play up on a napkin, should I send it to Josh?
 

Saints Rest

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In my wishes, it is 2nd and goal around the 7. Then Cam flexes out wide right to a WR. With Keene then motioning back into the backfield to join White and Stiddy out of the shotgun. Harry slot left, Byrd Flanked left. I've drawn the play up on a napkin, should I send it to Josh?
Friendly amendment: substitute Meyers for Keene or Stidham. Teams will now have to give some semblance of respect to Meyers to throw the ball.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I took a look at the TD pass to Harry. On video, it looked like it was a rub route to free up Keene (Meyers ran an egregious pick on the other side to free up Byrd). I have doubts now that the pass was intended for Harry. I think it was going to be an overthrow of Keene.
I'll try to post a pic once I can get it sized correctly.

EDIT- on 3rd look, I actually do think that it went to Harry intentionally. My guess is that 1 & 2 options were Keene and Byrd, but with Harry having such good position, the throw went there.
 

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Saints Rest

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Why not sub Meyers for Harry?
Fair point.
Counterpoint 1: I wanted to sub for a guy he had drawn up as in the backfield.
Counterpoint 2: I think Harry is likely a better choice in the red zone for this type of play because A) his height for a high pass/fade; and B) his blocking ability in space for a run. All that assumes of course that he doesn't get a penalty.
 

NickEsasky

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Jul 24, 2001
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I am not sure how many of you follow Star Craft and gaming in Korea but this team reminds me a little of Flash when he was taking down the Titans of SC in the late 2000's and early 2010s before people realized he was... well Flash... God of Star Craft.

Flash was known for a few things. At first people saw him as a villain known for something called cheesing or playing cheese. Cheese was an all-in strategy like a suicide rush or going for a few high tech units that could GG your opponent. Examples: The zergling rush, the dragoon rush, the mutalisk rush, the reaver drop rush, the dark templar drop/rush. He didn't always use these strategies but when he did won 1 of his 3 matches against a world-class opponent that's all the gaming world would talk about. He later stopped using those strategies completely - he didn't even need to and was much better off not doing it. Later on people saw Flash was actually great at developing his economy, winning with thinking/strategy both before the game and during, and managing/microing his units. Flash would easily get in over 200 commands per minute. Flash was a machine. Flash would adjust and destroy your strategy. He was water. He could counter the counter of your counter and he already has his units built before you think of the counter he knew you would try.

Belichick right now is zagging when people are zigging, as usual. But I bet if you gave him truth serum he would tell you he wished he had a dynamic TE and a couple of good receivers so he could have an offense that isn't so one-dimensional. It reminds me a lot of cheesing. You don't have a reliable passing attack. You know you have the personnel to run the ball effectively. I think it's telling Cam didn't pick apart this Cover 3 vanilla defense and they went, again, with a more run-heavy approach. Like we saw with vs Arizona, if you can play goal line and take away the run the Patriots are not going to beat you with the pass. With the OL, Cam, and Damien Harris this is exceptional quality cheese but it is still cheese. For a long time Georgia Tech, Army, and a small number other lesser football programs have over the years run the triple option. Why? It's different and unique so it gives you a chance to win with scheme vs an unfamiliar opponent who has better quality players than your lesser program does. It is the American College football version of Star Craft Cheese strategy.

My game-balls go to the coaching staff, ST, OL, and the best game the front 7 have shown all year. Uche showing us why they traded up for him. The young defensive core taking some serious steps to get better.
This is a solid post, but my only nitpick is that it seems Belichick started zagging before this year with where he was spending draft capital. Seemingly he had a plan to go smashmouth the last few years and built the roster to accommodate that. Sony, Harry, Harris, etc. Even if Stidham worked out, he is mobile. Not RPO Cam mobile, but he can scramble for sure.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Jul 20, 2009
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This is a solid post, but my only nitpick is that it seems Belichick started zagging before this year with where he was spending draft capital. Seemingly he had a plan to go smashmouth the last few years and built the roster to accommodate that. Sony, Harry, Harris, etc. Even if Stidham worked out, he is mobile. Not RPO Cam mobile, but he can scramble for sure.
Oh for sure. 2018 draft they were linked to another OL mauler aside from Wynn who many saw as a near-flawless guard prospect, Frank Ragnow. They also were looking at bigger bodied WRs. 2019 Harry was the best blocking WR in the draft. Harris was a scheme diverse jack of all trades power back. Keene looked like he could do hy-back stuff. Cajuste was a nasty run blocker. Onwenu, sweet sweet Onwenu, was a dog as a run blocker. Izzo was one of the best TE blockers in the 2018 class. He just didn't offer much as a receiver... Bully ball has been the plan since they knew Brady's days were nearing the end. Going more run-heavy was in the works around 2018. That's when they started using more 21 personnel. Develin had a place on the team on earlier runs but they didn't turn to 21 with the gusto that they did before 2018. They were in 21 28% of the time in 2018, 14% in 2019 mostly because their two FBs were hurt so they used more 12 which was disastrous given their TE situation, and now 38% in 2020.

I saw Stidham, Jimmy G, and JB as athletic QBs which continues the trend of athletic QBs with this team. It's hard in today's NFL to win with a statue of a pocket passer and bully-ball benefits from a true dual-threat guy like a Cam. I think Josh or Bill mentioned that with a dual-threat QB you are playing 11 vs 11 whereas with a guy who can't move it is 10 vs 11.

Side note but a few of us were discussing mobility and Qbs and if the Pats want to go that direction or not. I know it is not in this thread. I am of the opinion that they want their next QB to at least be mobile like a Jimmy G who can scramble and do roll-outs (they had him doing that anyway which might have helped simplify his reads by making them half field). Unless you have immaculate pocket presence like Brady does in todays NFL the rush and speed of the front 7 is a huge obstacle to success. There is a difference though between a mobile QB and a dual-threat. A dual-threat is someone like Cam, Watson, Lamar, Josh Allen, etc. A mobile guy is someone like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Jimmy G, etc. I believe in a perfect world they want a dual-threat but would take a mobile+ guy who isn't afraid to rip off 10-15 yard gains and can do so with ease for first downs (like when the D is playing man and their backs are to the QB and... in the time I typed this Wilson ran for a first down).

The counter-argument is they can and will take anyone they can win with and if a guy is a slower type and is, they believe, getting undervalued because of it they might go with him. I can't disprove that. It's solid logic and their MO is to take cast-off parts and make the most of them. Hi Kyle Van Noy. If we relate it to this draft I think they would much rather have Trey Lance or Zack Wilson at 15/16/17 over Mac Jones or Kyle Trask.

Edit: assume for the sake of the argument that Lance, Wilson, Jones, and Trask are all around the same grade.
Edit 2: Lance and Wilson are getting top 10 buzz so they might not be around at 15/16/17 but for the sake of the argument let's just assume they all are.
 
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Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
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Nov 29, 2005
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Oh for sure. 2018 draft they were linked to another OL mauler aside from Wynn who many saw as a near-flawless guard prospect, Frank Ragnow. They also were looking at bigger bodied WRs. 2019 Harry was the best blocking WR in the draft. Harris was a scheme diverse jack of all trades power back. Keene looked like he could do hy-back stuff. Cajuste was a nasty run blocker. Onwenu, sweet sweet Onwenu, was a dog as a run blocker. Izzo was one of the best TE blockers in the 2018 class. He just didn't offer much as a receiver... Bully ball has been the plan since they knew Brady's days were nearing the end. Going more run-heavy was in the works around 2018. That's when they started using more 21 personnel. Develin had a place on the team on earlier runs but they didn't turn to 21 with the gusto that they did before 2018. They were in 21 28% of the time in 2018, 14% in 2019 mostly because their two FBs were hurt so they used more 12 which was disastrous given their TE situation, and now 38% in 2020.

I saw Stidham, Jimmy G, and JB as athletic QBs which continues the trend of athletic QBs with this team. It's hard in today's NFL to win with a statue of a pocket passer and bully-ball benefits from a true dual-threat guy like a Cam. I think Josh or Bill mentioned that with a dual-threat QB you are playing 11 vs 11 whereas with a guy who can't move it is 10 vs 11.

Side note but a few of us were discussing mobility and Qbs and if the Pats want to go that direction or not. I know it is not in this thread. I am of the opinion that they want their next QB to at least be mobile like a Jimmy G who can scramble and do roll-outs (they had him doing that anyway which might have helped simplify his reads by making them half field). Unless you have immaculate pocket presence like Brady does in todays NFL the rush and speed of the front 7 is a huge obstacle to success. There is a difference though between a mobile QB and a dual-threat. A dual-threat is someone like Cam, Watson, Lamar, Josh Allen, etc. A mobile guy is someone like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Jimmy G, etc. I believe in a perfect world they want a dual-threat but would take a mobile+ guy who isn't afraid to rip off 10-15 yard gains and can do so with ease for first downs (like when the D is playing man and their backs are to the QB and... in the time I typed this Wilson ran for a first down).

The counter-argument is they can and will take anyone they can win with and if a guy is a slower type and is, they believe, getting undervalued because of it they might go with him. I can't disprove that. It's solid logic and their MO is to take cast-off parts and make the most of them. Hi Kyle Van Noy. If we relate it to this draft I think they would much rather have Trey Lance or Zack Wilson at 15/16/17 over Mac Jones or Kyle Trask.

Edit: assume for the sake of the argument that Lance, Wilson, Jones, and Trask are all around the same grade.
Edit 2: Lance and Wilson are getting top 10 buzz so they might not be around at 15/16/17 but for the sake of the argument let's just assume they all are.
This is probably better suited for the draft thread, but it is a reason why I am high on Mac Jones. They have shown that they can play bully ball. Add in a QB who can drop dimes, and this offense becomes dangerous.

Are there run blocking stats for WRs? I see the Pats as using Harry like a move TE. It seems to me that he is the one sealing the edge on a lot of plays. But my lying eyes could be deceivin me.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,878
Dallas
This is probably better suited for the draft thread, but it is a reason why I am high on Mac Jones. They have shown that they can play bully ball. Add in a QB who can drop dimes, and this offense becomes dangerous.

Are there run blocking stats for WRs? I see the Pats as using Harry like a move TE. It seems to me that he is the one sealing the edge on a lot of plays. But my lying eyes could be deceivin me.
They use Harry a ton to seal off the edge on crack-tosses, yes. As for stats I would look at PFF for those grades minus just watching the games and keeping notes. Hard to find good stats on run-blocking sadly. Unfortunately even with a grain of salt Harry is the 7th worst run-blocker for WRs. I would probably put him closer to the middle of the pack. When he hits his block he usually succeeds and it looks good however they ask him to make blocks in space and he has a bad habit of not taking good angles or hesitating. Sometimes they ask him to make virtually impossible blocks too where he has to cover too much ground. I keep on thinking to myself that they drafted him in large part because of how good a run blocker he was and for his size but he has actually been super inconsistent there... kind of sucks. He has also gotten some penalties for bad blocks/holds.
 

mulluysavage

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In my wishes, it is 2nd and goal around the 7. Then Cam flexes out wide right to a WR. With Keene then motioning back into the backfield to join White and Stiddy out of the shotgun. Harry slot left, Byrd Flanked left. I've drawn the play up on a napkin, should I send it to Josh?
An inspired vision. Josh has a file of my napkin notes, including the Edelman double pass from the Ravens 2015. I'll fax him to expect yours and to file under 2nd and 7.