For me this isn't an issue with the rule, which is fine. This is a replay issue, and it goes across sports, where everything must be millimeter precise in a manner that sometimes defies conventional expectations.
The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 12 @ Minnesota
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
Is it not relevant that the ground isn’t what caused him to lose control? He clearly possessed it for a noticeable amount of time before it juggled a tiny bit as a result of him rolling over. It doesn’t make any sense to me as a rule it would be incomplete if he doesn’t lose control on impact with the ground and it never touches the ground again after that. Clearly the ground did not aid his process of possessing that ball, and (rightly) it always seems like that’s the central tenet in these rules.
I’m not. He had a knee down and was contacted by a defender while his knee was down before his hand hits the ground and the ball starts to move. That loss of control doesn’t matter.
I don't think that is clear enough from the video to overturn gthe call on the field, but I don't think the replay officials take that aspect of the rules seriously anymore.
Yes, it does matter. But that juggle happens right as he's rolling off the ground, they're going to attribute that to the ball touching the ground. There maybe 1/4 second lapse between the ball touching the ground and the ball moving out of his hand.
What is the football move you think he made between his knee touching the ground and the ball touching the ground?
Does the ball crossing the plane of the goal line count? Seems like "scoring a touchdown" might count as a football move.
To me, visually it’s clearly a result of his body hitting the ground and turning, not the ground itself. He “survived” the initial ground contact, it jars because of the jolt to his body as he rolls. Tirico even pointed that out and asked Terry that very thing, and Terry said it didn’t matter.
While the "incontrovertible proof" rule has been relaxed, there still needs to be sufficient evidence to overturn a call on the field, and this replay fails that standard.
I had the same complaint when the Pats benefited from the Jesse James catch: it's one thing to use frame-by-frame replay to show whether a player was inbounds or over the goal line. But using it to determine whether something is a "football move" or "survive the ground" is going to be highly subjective. I'd prefer full speed replay in that case, and if it's not clear from the full speed version, then the call on the field should stand.
It doesn't, but even if it did, that happened before the knee touched the ground. Any "football move" aspect only counts if it happens after the knee hits.
I think he attempted to reach the ball across the goal line even though it was already in. The sideline camera view shows him catching the ball with his hands coming into his body, then extending with the ball a few inches before trying to tuck it as he goes down.
This is confusing and counterintuitive because breaking the plane normally ends the play.
Sure, if the ball is in player possession. If the ball is loose the play continues. The ball is by definition "loose" here until it is caught, the criteria for which need to be satisfied.
I agree, but all of this happens before his knee is on the ground. So it doesn't count. If he had touched the ground with two feet instead of one before going down it's a clear touchdown.
The play call and execution on the 3rd and 7 where Mac took the sack was really bad. They seemed confused and set up in this weird formation, not like a team that had an ace play ready to run during a critical moment in the fourth quarter. Then Brown whiffed on his block and doomed the drive.
From this link:
https://operations.nfl.com/media/5kvgzyss/2022-nfl-rulebook-final.pdf
First from Rule 3:
EDIT: It seems as if there is enough ambiguity on the control of the ball aspect that the play could be interpreted in multiple ways upon replay. Which tells me that the call on the field should have stood. If the ruling on the field was incomplete, or down at the one foot line, not sure the replay would be enough to overturn either.
https://operations.nfl.com/media/5kvgzyss/2022-nfl-rulebook-final.pdf
First from Rule 3:
Then from Rule 8:
It's not clear on the replay that Henry lost control of the ball during and after the ball has touched the ground. Also, from the replay, Henry has clear control of the ball when his knee touches the ground, which means from (a) and (b) and Note 2 above have been fulfilled.
EDIT: It seems as if there is enough ambiguity on the control of the ball aspect that the play could be interpreted in multiple ways upon replay. Which tells me that the call on the field should have stood. If the ruling on the field was incomplete, or down at the one foot line, not sure the replay would be enough to overturn either.
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Jakobi caught a 20yd pass to end the game, he got hit hard a couple times but no brain damage.
I thought the refs were overall “odd” in that they let a lot go on special teams and the ref an umpire essentially swallowed their whistles on pass protection, which probably slightly favored the Vikings given the advantages of the Pats DL. Lots of uncalled holding on both sides with an egregious missed face mask and a couple of egregious missed illegal procedures on the Pats, but overall probably evened out. Thought the Vikings got a clear advantage in officiating in the secondary.
Not at all, the ball clearly moves significantly the moment it hits the ground with James.
Also, that James play would be a TD now. It’s more akin to that Kelce play than the Henry play.
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Something else that really irked me was NE not using TOs when MN was goal to go with 2:43 to play in the first half. They could have used all 3 and still had the 2min warning when they got the ball instead of getting the ball with 1:35 and 2 TO.
That is the type of coaching mistake other teams used to make that Bill would take advantage of, not the type he would make.
That is the type of coaching mistake other teams used to make that Bill would take advantage of, not the type he would make.
He hurt his shoulder yesterday, assuming the account of his injury is accurate. His head was never the problem, from what I saw.
Minnesota had 3 timeouts left, as well. Letting the clock run to 90 seconds with 2 timeouts is probably the appropriate combination of risk/reward. Football of 20 years ago you take the timeout earlier. Nowadays, I think he played it right.
Yeah, obviously he was never concussed, but the independent brain doctor did check on him in the tent apparently. His shoulder definitely seemed to get the worst of it.
The Patriots always let other teams beat themselves. It was their signature, which is why they won so much. Teams are so close, so it's always a a few things and crucial plays that determine the outcome.
Yesterday, the Pats beat themselves. That running into the kicker is an absolutely brain dead move at the worst time and it is the type of things other teams always did and the Pats never did. And letting the return for a TD happen after doing it to the Jets is just brutal. Yes, the refs missed a call. But not a single Pat was even close to making a tackle on that play. Because of the uncalled penalty, that wasn't as bad as the running into the kicker.
Yesterday, it really seemed like Meyers and Amon Ra on the Lions were both just absolutely banged up in the body. They both came back into the game but the Thursday game makes it tougher on players who are feeling some pain. What Meyers was going through really reminded me of Amon Ra.
At least the Pats now have a full week to heal up. Buffalo can be beaten. But it is a brutal matchup.
The lack of a verbal explanation for the overturn- which they typically provide- made the Henry overturn even more annoying.
These two posts nail it. You can blame GM BB for bringing in players without football savvy or coach BB and his staff for insufficient focus on the little things or just blame the players themselves, but it feels like the Pats commit at least one critical bone-headed mistake every week and that used to be exceedingly rare.
If the Pats had a real offensive coordinator, they could quite possibly be 8-3 or 9-2.
I have no idea why Belichick would bring that boob back.
It feels like BB is content to ride out his late career with inferior coaching options who have a superior knowledge of the Patriot Way. He's not firing Matt P. In fact, Matt P might be the leader in the clubhouse to succeed BB (if they're not going to blow it up and start with a totally new regime).
The same way we're giving Mac credit for a good game, we should be giving Patricia credit for improvement of the offense (specifically putting Mac in a better position to succeed).
They both have been terrible this season, both had a good game with some mistakes, both have a lot to improve on.
They both have been terrible this season, both had a good game with some mistakes, both have a lot to improve on.
So after running in to the kicker vs. Jets last week (Raekwon McMillan) and this week (Strong), any bets on next week's poorly-coached, exuberant lad?
Or will we do it like we did when our returners fumbled all the time, and just tell them to fair catch everything -- don't try anything.
Amazing how a coach can go from "smartest team in the world" to "dumbest team in the world" when the GOAT QB leaves them. They showed a graphic last night about coaches without their star QB (Shula/Knoll/Landry) and it was all under 500 (except Dungy, who they included in there because he was in the booth). Seems the correlation between great coaches and great qb runs one way.
Or will we do it like we did when our returners fumbled all the time, and just tell them to fair catch everything -- don't try anything.
Amazing how a coach can go from "smartest team in the world" to "dumbest team in the world" when the GOAT QB leaves them. They showed a graphic last night about coaches without their star QB (Shula/Knoll/Landry) and it was all under 500 (except Dungy, who they included in there because he was in the booth). Seems the correlation between great coaches and great qb runs one way.
His left knee, left elbow, and left forearm hit the ground before the left hand that his clutching the bottom of the ball. That is #2 on the catch algorithm. His left elbow is pointed slightly upward as is his wrist, other parts are going to hit first. It is a badly blown call period.
knee down, elbow to follow before left hand
knee down, elbow to follow before left hand
The lack of pass rush on a night they played a lot of zone. Special teams. The refs. Red zone offense. Jon Jones had some good plays but his lack of size and ball skills hurt against JJ. He’s a very good corner but couldn’t close some of those plays he was in position to.
Overall they went 0/3 in the red zone (should have been 1/3 but even 1/3 isn’t good), 3/10 on third down including the play where Trent Brown… man what you doing? The Vikings meanwhile went 8/15 on third down and scored TDs 3/5 times in the red zone. You’re not going to win often when the defense allows more than 50% 3rd down conversions and they get 3TDs and 2 FGs in the red zone.
Here are the defensive drives not including the kneel-down at the end of the first half or the final drive of 3 runs to kill clock:
1) 8 Plays 80 Yards TD
2) 3-And-Out Punt
3) Interception 4 Plays 11 Yards
4) 14 Plays 72 Yards FG
5) 9 Plays 75 Yards TD
6) 14 Plays 65 Yards FG
7) 6 Plays 71 Yards TD
8) 6 Plays 10 Yards Punt
5/8 drives you allow a score including 3 TDs. Only one 3-and-out, and yes the interception is nice. 2 Punts. That’s really bad. 3.25 points a drive is awful. Now granted I’m not including the clock killing drive so if we did 2.89. Football outsiders calculates points per drive and eliminates drives that are kneel-downs at the end of games or at the end of a half. League leaders are the Chiefs at 2.88 points per game and the Vikings went into it with 2.0. So 3.25 or 2.89 by the Pats defense is a bad performance relative to league standards and Viking standards. It’s obviously one game and a small sample size but they shit the bed last night defending the pass and stopping the Vikings offense.
Overall they went 0/3 in the red zone (should have been 1/3 but even 1/3 isn’t good), 3/10 on third down including the play where Trent Brown… man what you doing? The Vikings meanwhile went 8/15 on third down and scored TDs 3/5 times in the red zone. You’re not going to win often when the defense allows more than 50% 3rd down conversions and they get 3TDs and 2 FGs in the red zone.
Here are the defensive drives not including the kneel-down at the end of the first half or the final drive of 3 runs to kill clock:
1) 8 Plays 80 Yards TD
2) 3-And-Out Punt
3) Interception 4 Plays 11 Yards
4) 14 Plays 72 Yards FG
5) 9 Plays 75 Yards TD
6) 14 Plays 65 Yards FG
7) 6 Plays 71 Yards TD
8) 6 Plays 10 Yards Punt
5/8 drives you allow a score including 3 TDs. Only one 3-and-out, and yes the interception is nice. 2 Punts. That’s really bad. 3.25 points a drive is awful. Now granted I’m not including the clock killing drive so if we did 2.89. Football outsiders calculates points per drive and eliminates drives that are kneel-downs at the end of games or at the end of a half. League leaders are the Chiefs at 2.88 points per game and the Vikings went into it with 2.0. So 3.25 or 2.89 by the Pats defense is a bad performance relative to league standards and Viking standards. It’s obviously one game and a small sample size but they shit the bed last night defending the pass and stopping the Vikings offense.
Special teams deserves the GOAT across the board -- from bad punts to poor coverage to sloppy mistakes.
HM: the refs. I was watching the game with a bunch of diehard MN Vikings fans, and even they were noting how biased the refs were.
HM: the refs. I was watching the game with a bunch of diehard MN Vikings fans, and even they were noting how biased the refs were.
WOW. That's a take. You must not watch the rest of the NFL. Also, you must not be aware of BB's career in Cleveland v. his time in NE (without TB at the helm).
I'm not sure if the elbow is down in this pic (too pixelated to say conclusively). Knee does look down, but then again, it may not be. That's the point to me. Nothing here can definitively overturn the call on the field.
The defensive front was incredibly underwhelming. The inability to get pressure up the middle was huge. One of the few times they did, Ekuale broke through, fell at Cousins feet and caused the overthrow that was picked because he couldn't step into the throw. Uche got his sack twisting inside and getting in the face of Cousins (still not sure how he didn't lose that ball BTW). The pressure from the edges was always late getting into the backfield and also allowed Cousins to extend plays by moving up the field in the pocket. It's a mortal sin to not knock Cousins around and speed him up.
None of this stuff matters though. Maybe that’s the frustrating gap the NFL needs to bridge, people just don’t understand why the rulings are made the way they are.
Gotta put some blame on Stevie or whomever is running the defense: The Vikings seemed to repeatedly bait Patriots rushers, particularly Judon, into rushing deep toward a rolling Cousins, who just threw around them or over their heads to a waiting Jefferson or TE who had dragged across the formation.
Judon a few times didn't even put his arms up, just continued to head-down rush Cousins as the ball whipped past his ear hole. Gotta do something to either get hands up and contain Cousins or spy that drag route with a linebacker. Something. It worked five or six times, easily.
Judon a few times didn't even put his arms up, just continued to head-down rush Cousins as the ball whipped past his ear hole. Gotta do something to either get hands up and contain Cousins or spy that drag route with a linebacker. Something. It worked five or six times, easily.
i get what youre saying and your knowledge and insight is invaluable
To me, using ur process approach as i read it:
1 - has ball in possession
2 - foot and knee down, elbow hits before hand holding ball as well
3 - extending over goal line football move
At minimum that isnt definitive evidence to overturn.
But the Pats lost, onto the Bills
3 happens before 2. He needs to make a definitive football move after 2 happens but before he is on the ground. He’s on the ground more or less simultaneously with his knee hitting the ground.
Von Miller is out next week and maybe for the season:
View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1596186452735434764?s=42&t=dTrthj__2PKgnzaCe0x01A
View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1596186452735434764?s=42&t=dTrthj__2PKgnzaCe0x01A
I appreciate you taking the time to go over all of this. I still think the ground wasn’t the cause of the bobble and the original call was correct, and even if not, there wasn’t enough to overturn. But your explanation of the “checkbox” order helped clarify what exactly the refs are looking for.
But I’m not sure it’s so much poor communication as to what the rules are that leads to upset fans, but the lack of logical consistency between the rules. In other aspects, a play is immediately over as soon as an elbow, knee, hip touches the ground. That determines where the ball is spotted or whether a ball was fumbled. But to determine whether a catch was completed, the play instead continues for some indefinite period of time even if a knee, elbow, or hip touched the ground. Same with the goal line. The logic of the goal line is as soon as the tip of the ball touches the imaginary plane, the play is immediately over. Except with a catch. There, a player could firmly grasp the ball, cross the plane but not be awarded a touchdown if the ball touches the ground and rotates as he lands.
It makes sense that the ground can’t assist in securing a catch. But it makes less logical sense that a play continues when a player has clear control of a ball, a knee or elbow touches the ground or he crosses the goal line.
Agreed. Both plays resulted in giving the Vikings a first down but, in the case of the punt, you can at least argue that Strong was trying to make a play ... as misguided as that effort was. On the hit though, Teilen is already on the ground and the ball was thrown behind him (he got one hand on it) before the hit. If the defender come in and just give him a shove with two hands, there's no penalty. The aggressiveness of the hit under the circumstances was ridiculous
This is where I'm at. It seemed like the NFL took a step in the right direction over the last few years on what a catch is, but this seems like 2 steps backwards. They also have made strides in what is PI and not and let a lot of the routine stuff go and even PI seems back to pre-2004 Dungy Bitching Era. I really dont care that much about this specific call because the Patriots are an OK team and they're not going deep in the playoffs so I don't have really any emotional attachment to this, but if it needs this much explanation there are fundamental issues in how things are being called. The fact there are over 100 posts on this thread alone on this, which I think is one of the best forums with knowledgable posters, indicates there's a major problem even here, never mind on the casual fan.
Then you have the NFL cycling the wagons with Surviving the Ground....
Ok; stupid question, but here goes.............why doesn't the play end when he broke the plane?
If a QB sneaks the ball over by extending it over the pile or a RB does the same thing and the ball gets knocked out, is that not a fumble but a touchdown?
If Henry broke the plane and did not extend the ball out, he would not have lost control of it.
Understood that he has no idea if he broke the plane, hence the need for him to extend the ball, but doing so cost them the touchdown.