The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 4 @ Green Bay

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
21,900
A Scud Away from Hell
Last season through 4 games (3 home, 1 road): 1-3, scoring 17.8 points, allowing 17.5 points
This season through 4 games (1 home, 3 road): 1-3, scoring 18.5 points, allowing 24.5 points

Record of opponents played in first four games through four games in 2021:
Mia: 1-3
NYJ: 1-3
NO: 2-2
TB: 3-1
TOT: 7-9

Record of opponents played in first four games through four games in 2022:
Mia: 3-1
Pit: 1-3
Bal: 2-2
GB: 3-1
TOT: 9-7
Thanks for that. Maybe that's why I feel better about this 1-3 team than last year's. I'm not sure if they'll make the playoffs as they have a tougher schedule overall but I am beginning to like this team, especially the defense.

P. S. What happened to Bailey???
 

8slim

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
20,743
Unreal America
Wynn.

Outside of his hideous play, I can’t point the blame most anywhere.

I didn’t love the deep hand off on 2nd down in OT, but what can you do? The OL got beat after dominating the GB DL for a long stretch. It wasn’t the worst play call in the world.

Team scrapped for 70 minutes. Sometimes you just lose.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
21,900
A Scud Away from Hell
Not really anything to do with the goat but I laughed at the sequence of Bill losing his mind about the play lock being reset after the dropped TD by GB only to have them take an intentional delay of game.
Every time he throws headsets at a referee he adds one more year to his lifespan.
 

streeter88

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 2, 2006
1,576
Melbourne, Australia
@Eddie Jurak and @BaseballJones (oops @SeoulSoxFan beat me to it) - great posts! I only was able to watch the last part of the game and OT as supposed to be working now. Looks like the officating really was poor today.

Should we be encouraged by the defensive performance today or not? Thought they played pretty gutsy toward the end of the game, but hoped for one more great play from them (fumble, interception, miracle) which never happened.
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
19,263
Wynn should be cut - he’s awful

where’s barmore? Expected big things but his name hasn’t come up much at all
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
10,151
Wynn - I wonder if the multitude of injuries have sapped any talent he might have had or they simply masked the fact he wasn't very talented.

The two off-coverage calls in OT when GB needed about 5 yards to get into FG range were also incredibly maddening given a FG was all GB needed.
Overall though an incredibly gutsy performance by the team. Fire Wynn into the Sun from a "Cannon" and move onto Det which should be a fun game as all DET games have been thus far.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
21,900
A Scud Away from Hell
Should we be encouraged by the defensive performance today or not?
That's a 100% YES. How can you NOT be encouraged by the defense today? Sure Bryant was doing his share but overall it was a fantastic performance.

I hope Cannon replaces Wynn in a couple of weeks or sooner.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
14,539
UWS, NYC
The ”they traded Isaiah Wynn for a 2027 seventh-round pick swap” thread deserves far fewer posts that the Justin Herron thread.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
1,531
South Dartmouth, MA
I posted this in the game thread but going to post here as well:

Can anyone explain to me how zone blocking is supposed to work? I’m not trying to defend wynns overall level but it struck me on both sacks he let up it was to a guy waaay wide of LOS. And in both cases another player has a chance to chip the guy which would’ve given Wynn more time to move out to that area (I think romo even called out the RB on the first play). It feels like placing all blame on Wynn on those sacks is misguided somewhat. But hence why I posed the question in the first place. I’m willing to be told I’m a moron…and I’ll add he didn’t look good even outside these two plays, I’m just genuinely curious at what I’m looking at.
 

The Mort Report

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 5, 2007
4,226
Winter Hill
The ”they traded Isaiah Wynn for a 2027 seventh-round pick swap” thread deserves far fewer posts that the Justin Herron thread.
Can we throw Bryant in there to sweeten the deal?

Agree with all the Bryant and Wynn stuff, and they seem to be in these loss threads all the time. While I was pinning for Stidham to get starts when Cam was obviously not the answer, that was as a fan wanting to see the possible potential, but I can totally see the team's thought that Cam gave them the best chance to win. I hated it but I understood it. These two, especially Bryant, just seem to have so many negative plays that I don't see how they are earning their snaps
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
20,056
@Eddie Jurak and @BaseballJones (oops @SeoulSoxFan beat me to it) - great posts! I only was able to watch the last part of the game and OT as supposed to be working now. Looks like the officating really was poor today.

Should we be encouraged by the defensive performance today or not? Thought they played pretty gutsy toward the end of the game, but hoped for one more great play from them (fumble, interception, miracle) which never happened.
Green Bay is a good team. They're coming off back to back 13-3 seasons, and Rodgers has won the MVP two straight seasons. Obviously they don't have Adams anymore, which is huge, but Rodgers is still awesome, and they have a phenomenal running game.

The Pats held them to 24 points in regulation and scored 7 of their own on the pick six. GB ran the ball very well today, of course, and Rodgers really got it going in the second half. That said, on two huge drives late in the game the Pats' D really held up.

Near the end of regulation the Packers (tie game) had the ball at the Packer 43 and the Pats' D stoned them. Then on their first drive in OT, the Pats' D stoned them again and gave them a chance to win it.

So there were some bummers on defense, but there were also some encouraging things too.
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
7,265
I don't mind running on second down in OT, but running with Rhamondre out of the shotgun seems to make more sense.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
49,935
I don’t know, the offense looked better for much of today than it did in several of Mac’s starts.

*ducks*
Eh. It's a new offense for everyone and the entire offense is just getting better. If that keeps happening, we'll be okay. Next 4 games seem winnable.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
20,056
Next six games for NE:

vs Det (1-3)
at Cle (2-2)
vs Chi (2-2)
at NYJ (2-2)
vs Ind (1-2-1)
vs NYJ (2-2)

I really would like to see them go 5-1 over this stretch to get to 6-4. Seems unlikely that they'll run the table, though last year they really walloped the soft underbelly of their schedule as they went from 1-3 to 9-4. In the old days, this would represent six automatic wins. No longer. I think 4-2 is realistic, which would put them at 5-5 and in the playoff mix. Of course after that, the schedule gets much more difficult (at Min, vs Buf, at Ari, at LV, vs Cin, vs Mia, at Buf).
 

j-man

Member
Dec 19, 2012
2,950
Arkansas
I posted this in the game thread but going to post here as well:

Can anyone explain to me how zone blocking is supposed to work? I’m not trying to defend wynns overall level but it struck me on both sacks he let up it was to a guy waaay wide of LOS. And in both cases another player has a chance to chip the guy which would’ve given Wynn more time to move out to that area (I think romo even called out the RB on the first play). It feels like placing all blame on Wynn on those sacks is misguided somewhat. But hence why I posed the question in the first place. I’m willing to be told I’m a moron…and I’ll add he didn’t look good even outside these two plays, I’m just genuinely curious at what I’m looking at.
zone blocking is supposed to have small quick lineman that can move at the point of attick to create 1-cut holes for the rb and it's suppored to have a QB that can move outside the pocket to throw in the middle of the field for how its suppoured to look go to you tube and search denver broncos 1995-2008 or san fran 2017 on
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
16,002
The problem with that 2nd and 5 play in the OT was not that it was a run. It's just that in a situation where the defense was playing for a run, they called a play that took forever for Harris to get the ball and subsequently get to the LOS.

Overall, the team showed something given that most of us expected a GB blowout. Jones and Jones are looking like good draft picks. So hard to give out goat horns this time around.
 

Just a bit outside

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2011
6,327
Monument, CO
I posted this in the game thread but going to post here as well:

Can anyone explain to me how zone blocking is supposed to work? I’m not trying to defend wynns overall level but it struck me on both sacks he let up it was to a guy waaay wide of LOS. And in both cases another player has a chance to chip the guy which would’ve given Wynn more time to move out to that area (I think romo even called out the RB on the first play). It feels like placing all blame on Wynn on those sacks is misguided somewhat. But hence why I posed the question in the first place. I’m willing to be told I’m a moron…and I’ll add he didn’t look good even outside these two plays, I’m just genuinely curious at what I’m looking at.
Zone blocking scheme has nothing to do with those plays. Rusher is out wide and you either chip to help the tackle or trust him to have the quickness to cut off the outside rush. They trusted Wynn and it didn’t work.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
1,531
South Dartmouth, MA
Zone blocking scheme has nothing to do with those plays. Rusher is out wide and you either chip to help the tackle or trust him to have the quickness to cut off the outside rush. They trusted Wynn and it didn’t work.
Gotcha, thanks for the explanation! Like I said happy to be told I’m a moron (and I appreciate you not actually calling me one)
And you too @j-man
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
5,098
from the wilds of western ma
I hated the conservative play calling in OT. I think that’s where you get aggressive, and try to win the game. That’s on the coaches. Otherwise, I loved the toughness, effort, and compete level today. Hard for me to call out too many game goats.
 

Jungleland

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2009
2,090
Such a tough team to get a read on 4 games in. I really don't think they suck and yet I have basically no faith in them to beat anyone. I think they might actually be in that couple players away zone, I do think there is a strong core here and thankfully it's not really the old guys at the center of it.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
4,124
Amstredam
I expected nothing out of this team this year, but you can see the outlines of a good team.

They have a long way to go and Mac being out probably means they don't get there. But they are better than I expected.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,387
Dallas
Defensive tackle play was garbage. DL overall has had a rough couple of games. Bryant had mistakes. Jack Jones is going to be a good coverage corner but his play strength is sorely lacking. Props for the pick-six but can’t wait until he adds 10-15 pounds. Wynn needs to get his shit together. Zappe unfortunately had a bad game too. It’s not his fault that he isn’t ready but he’s clearly not ready.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,078
NOVA
Defensive tackle play was garbage. DL overall has had a rough couple of games. Bryant had mistakes. Jack Jones is going to be a good coverage corner but his play strength is sorely lacking. Props for the pick-six but can’t wait until he adds 10-15 pounds. Wynn needs to get his shit together. Zappe unfortunately had a bad game too. It’s not his fault that he isn’t ready but he’s clearly not ready.
I get what you're saying but saying Zappe had a "bad game" considering where he went to college, where he was drafted, and how few repetitions he's received in his very young career I think it's damn harsh to say he had a "bad game." On the contrary, I think he surprised many of us here being able to drive the team to two touchdown scores at GB when he was ushered in suddenly because Hoyer had to leave the game. The bar in this situation would be very low for anyone in his position and lack of experience and who cannot say that he cleared it given all the circumstances? The third string, fourth round drafted, hasn't been activated until this past Mon., QB almost won at GB.
 
Last edited:

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
10,640
I get what you're saying but saying Zappe had a "bad game" considering where he went to college, where he was drafted, and how few repetitions he's received in his very young career I think it's damn harsh to say he had a "bad game." On the contrary, I think he surprised many of us here being able to drive the team to two touchdown scores at GB when he was ushered in suddenly because Hoyer had to leave the game. The bar in this situation would be very low for anyone in his position and lack of experience and who cannot say that he cleared it given all the circumstances? The third string, fourth round drafted, hasn't been activated until this past Mon., QB almost won at GB.
I think it can be true that he both had a bad game and that he was better than most if not all of us would have expected if you told us this morning he was going to play most of the game. They likely win today with Hoyer, they almost certainly win with Mac, and if Zappe throws the ball to a wide open Henry over the middle on that 3rd and 5 instead of panicking and spinning around before throwing a pass that had no chance incomplete they probably win with Zappe.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
39,683
Melrose, MA
Here are some questions for the board:
  • When Mills returns, should the Pats kick Jon Jones back inside to slot corner and have Mills and Jack Jones at the outside corners? Seems like Bryant at slot corner is begging for trouble.
  • How much of Jack Jones tackling issues are size vs technique? On a couple of his misses, he seemed to be making contact high (around the shoulders, not headhunting), well above the receiver's center of mass. That seems like a recipe for missed tackles for an undersized player.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,369
Needham, MA
Why do people keep saying they likely win with Hoyer? Hoyer is awful, he’s a very bad NFL QB who looked awful in the brief time he was in the game before he got concussed. Zappe was about exactly how I thought he would be, and it’s a testament to the team that they got into OT, but I see no reason to believe the outcome would have been different if Hoyer played the whole game.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
17,291
Why do people keep saying they likely win with Hoyer? Hoyer is awful, he’s a very bad NFL QB who looked awful in the brief time he was in the game before he got concussed. Zappe was about exactly how I thought he would be, and it’s a testament to the team that they got into OT, but I see no reason to believe the outcome would have been different if Hoyer played the whole game.
It’s flat out lazy and ignorant to say that they probably win with Hoyer. Really? What’s the evidence to suggest that? That he’s been in the league a long time?
 

cournoyer

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2012
490
Enfield, Connecticut
They tried the play action on 2nd and 6 from the NE 29 on their penultimate drive in regulation, but that led to a sack of Zappe. I'm guessing BB figured they could get 3 yards and then maybe have two shots to pick up the last 2 yards.
It’s flat out lazy and ignorant to say that they probably win with Hoyer. Really? What’s the evidence to suggest that? That he’s been in the league a long time?
I think one reason people feel this way is that Hoyer showed a little more composure in the pocket. It's not everything but it was clear early on throwing with Zappe that he wasn't comfortable, panicking his reads and looking to move around before rushing his throw and skipping it in the dirt. Not saying they definitely win with Hoyer but I do think you can be confident running your actual offense a bit more.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
17,291
I think one reason people feel this way is that Hoyer showed a little more composure in the pocket. It's not everything but it was clear early on throwing with Zappe that he wasn't comfortable, panicking his reads and looking to move around before rushing his throw and skipping it in the dirt. Not saying they definitely win with Hoyer but I do think you can be confident running your actual offense a bit more.
I think that they *could* have won had Hoyer played the whole game, but he also could have turned the ball over three times and lost by two TDs. There's no basis to say that they "probably" would have won. "Could" and "probably" are not synonymous.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,369
Needham, MA
I think that they *could* have won had Hoyer played the whole game, but he also could have turned the ball over three times and lost by two TDs. There's no basis to say that they "probably" would have won. "Could" and "probably" are not synonymous.
Yes, thank you. Maybe Hoyer plays a little better than Zappe, but maybe he throws a pick 6 and they lose by two scores. Plus there's the fact that you can't change one variable in the game and assume everything else plays out exactly the same way. The Pats lose this game probably 75% of the time with either Hoyer or Zappe starting, getting into OT was a miracle in and of itself. If Mac played they have a better chance, but then again if the game plan is very different and they are letting Mac throw the ball all over the field and he throws 2-3 picks like he has been doing maybe they don't even get into OT. Who the fuck knows.
 
I hated the conservative play calling in OT. I think that’s where you get aggressive, and try to win the game. That’s on the coaches. Otherwise, I loved the toughness, effort, and compete level today. Hard for me to call out too many game goats.
I feel like I post this every week. Conservative play-calling, particularly against teams who are better than you, is a great way to lose a bunch of one-score games.

Hated the OT punt, once again after a meh set of calls on the first three downs.

Hated the 2Q 4th and 1 punt.

Aside from that, the team did ok, though unlike the Miami game in which a couple of big breaks pushed the score against them (PI in the endzone first drive, strip sack returned for a TD), in this game those moments went our way (pick six, no delay of game penalty on the TD). Those things gave the Pats a chance to steal one, and they failed to grasp that opportunity.

Zappe looks pretty overmatched, but that's hardly a surpise coming into a game the way he did. If Hoyer can't go, who is QB next week? (And who is the backup, given that we are showing a tendency toward needing them...?)

Cam?

[ducks]
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
20,056
Such a tough team to get a read on 4 games in. I really don't think they suck and yet I have basically no faith in them to beat anyone. I think they might actually be in that couple players away zone, I do think there is a strong core here and thankfully it's not really the old guys at the center of it.
They definitely don’t suck. But they’re also not good. If Mac returns and limits turnovers they should be pretty good but not exceptional, able to lose to bad teams but also able to surprise some of the better teams in the league.

There is a strong core here, I agree. Lots to build upon.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
33,725
Deep inside Muppet Labs
So Zappe looks overmatched, so you wanted them to go for it on 4th and 5 from midfield in OT, giving Rodgers 15 yards for the GW FG? That makes no sense.

No real goats yesterday, they were in extremely adverse circumstances and nearly pulled off a huge upset. Only goat candidates are Wynn and Bryant. Wynn is likely out of here soon.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
33,725
Deep inside Muppet Labs
They definitely don’t suck. But they’re also not good. If Mac returns and limits turnovers they should be pretty good but not exceptional, able to lose to bad teams but also able to surprise some of the better teams in the league.

There is a strong core here, I agree. Lots to build upon.
Right now the frustrating thing is that every week they make just enough mistakes to lose. It's easy to see if they clean that up they'll win a bunch of games, but they don't seem able to do that.

It bears noting that the guys who have won here are mostly gone, there are very few key players left who have won SBs. Hightower retiring is an absolute killer IMO; even though he was toasty over the last few years he was a guy who knew what it took. DMac is looking awfully cooked lately. Slater is a special teamer. The key guys now have not won, do not know the feeling of confidence that comes with winning, and don't know they can win. That can be an extremely difficult thing to overcome in practice and games.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Was Mac at the game yesterday? I assume not as he was declared OUT early which makes me think he didn't fly with the team.

But if true, that means that poor Bailey Zappe had no actual vet QB to talk to on the sidelines when he came off. One would have to expect with the game at home next week, that even if neither guy can dress, that one or both of Hoyer and/or Jones will be able to be on the sidelines to give some player-insight to Zappe. To say nothing of whomever they sign to be an actual active backup (knowing Bill, that backup may end up being another rookie off some other team's PS).
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
13,839
Mansfield MA
That's a 100% YES. How can you NOT be encouraged by the defense today? Sure Bryant was doing his share but overall it was a fantastic performance.
This is not the Green Bay Packers O of yore. They've struggled badly this year; yesterday was the most points they've scored all season.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
20,056
I know the Pats caught a bit of a break with the non-delay on the TD pass to Parker. But otherwise....man, it was call after call going GB's way, or so it seemed. I fully recognize that as a Pats' fan, I concentrate much more on the plays that negatively impact my team and so there may have been egregious misses going the other way. I'm still upset, though, at the long punt return by the Ravens last week where there was a block in the back AND a hold on the same punt and the refs let both go.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Also, the officials were BRUTAL yesterday. The game might have swung differently here:

View: https://twitter.com/BWMcGair03/status/1576728420855136256?s=20&t=BzGTJQauDNQEqoPN0O7Zwg
Your first sentence is EXTREMELY accurate; the second, while likely accurate, is made moot by the first.

How many terrible calls were there in this game, in each direction:
  • The horse collar call;
  • The uncalled delay of game TD;
  • The ref indicating the penalty was on the wrong team, not once, but twice!
So many more.
 

Bowhemian

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2015
4,735
Bow, NH
Horse collar penalty was such a terrible call. It was clear the hand was by the numbers, which is perfectly legal.
The alleged delay of game: watching real time I got the sense that the play clock had not been reset, or started to soon, or something. It just seemed to go awfully fast.
 

Dr. Gonzo

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2010
4,105
Only goats for me, non Wynn division, is the entire referee crew and CBS productions. It would be an insult to B teams to call this crew the B team. Head ref could not properly communicate and a few ticky tack calls that altered field position. Related, if this was the CBS game of of the week, I don't understand why we consistently could not get replays of penalties.
 

sal16cal

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 26, 2005
110
I am 100% on board with the game being a Moral Victory, but you cant say theres no goats. You can easily argue they cost them the Wynn/Bailey lost them the game.