The Game Goat Thread: Wk.4 @ KC

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Edelman was bad but he’s on pace for like 75 receptions for 1200 yards playing with a brand new qb for the first time. I think saying he’s washed is pretty premature
Another thought when it comes to Jules today. I'm sure he had close contact with Cam. Would a positive test surprise anyone in a couple days? Not trying to make excuses, but the way he seemed to just lose all energy after his tipped interception seemed out of character
 

Kliq

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To me, the whole team, even Hoyer, gets a pass. What a crazy situation to try and play a football game and they held their own against the reigning champs. Defense and O-Line were outstanding for most of the game.

One thing that continues to be a problem for this team is that since Gronk left, they have gotten NOTHING from the Tight End position. Where are the rookies? Hurt and inactive. That really comes to bite them in the ass in the red zone. I have no idea how they score a TD without the fade to Harry or just ramming the ball in on the ground. Cam mitigates a lot of those problems, but they need to get something out of their TEs.
 

E5 Yaz

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I think this is fine. These game/goat threads are essentially postgame discussions.
In that case ... could only follow online sporadically. Didn't see a play. Wanted to know whether Harris looked as good as his stats.
 

Zedia

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Harris “ran hard.” He often ran hard run right into people. A great 41 yard run (people were mad he ran OB but I think he was gassed), and a 3.75 average otherwise with a patchwork OL and Venus de Milo for a QB. A pretty nice performance.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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To me, the whole team, even Hoyer, gets a pass. What a crazy situation to try and play a football game and they held their own against the reigning champs. Defense and O-Line were outstanding for most of the game.

One thing that continues to be a problem for this team is that since Gronk left, they have gotten NOTHING from the Tight End position. Where are the rookies? Hurt and inactive. That really comes to bite them in the ass in the red zone. I have no idea how they score a TD without the fade to Harry or just ramming the ball in on the ground. Cam mitigates a lot of those problems, but they need to get something out of their TEs.
About the TE play, it seems McD is willing to sacrifice getting pass plays out of the position in return for better blocking.

Izzo is arguably their best run & pass blocker right now and that's been a better value on the field than Asiasi* and certainly Keene.

* Although scouting reports had a solid grade on his blocking, if I recall correctly
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Harris “ran hard.” He often ran hard run right into people. A great 41 yard run (people were mad he ran OB but I think he was gassed), and a 3.75 average otherwise with a patchwork OL and Venus de Milo for a QB. A pretty nice performance.
Evan Lazar mentioned this in his post game show. He thought Harris just followed JJ as he was getting into the flow of the game but gradually got more confident and started to have better vision.

What I love most about Harris is that he's capable of breaking tackles once out in the secondary. His legs are built like tree trunks and he has great balance to keep them churning. A sample scouting report:

Contact Balance - Cannot, and will not, be taken down by half-hearted tackle attempts. Is rocked up throughout and can absorb glancing blows even when he doesn't see them coming. Arm tackles from first-level defenders do nothing to slow him down. Regularly requires rally tackles when in the second level. Quick footwork lends itself to bracing for contact immediately.
We saw that aplenty during his Alabama days:

View: https://youtu.be/Ydf0Gd2B2d4


I forget that he was a good receiver out of the backfield too, as we saw a glimpse of it during a pre-season game last year:

View: https://youtu.be/UfN6NiK9E5U


Overall, really exciting debut performance from Harris.
 

wilked

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Didn’t see it mentioned but Gilmores punchout of the ball was a thing of beauty
 

streeter88

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I would be a fan of the 3 up 3 down style if there were a vote.

Harry starting to look as originally advertised -making the contested catch and then fighting up field more.

Onwenu on one play blocked one Chief right through another one - awesome!
 

Bowhemian

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Hoyer. He was Hoyer-ible. They way he ended those 2 red zone possessions was inexcusable.
Tony Corrente. That forward momentum call was just plain atrocious.

They can both suck a duck.
 

j44thor

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"In the grasp" needs to be removed from the rule book. Too many mobile QB's are given the benefit of the doubt these days when we see them spun around only to put a hand on the ground get up and run for 20-30 yards or complete a bomb downfield. Either put flags on them or let them play football like every other player on the field. Can't have a grey area penalty when it comes to the most important position in the game. Had Mahommes completed a pass in that situation all we would have heard about was how incredible it is that he can complete a pass while being tackled. The ref called the play dead after the ball was in the hands of the NE DL.
 

Van Everyman

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I actually felt bad for Hoyer. After a rough start floating a bunch of passes (likely due to nerves – yes, he’s a vet but this was the first game he ever started for Bill), he settled down and started making some really nice throws. But when he got into the RZ, he just lost all his composure.

Stidham I’m kind of encouraged by. Yes, that second pick was woefully under thrown but that is more a mechanics thing than anything else. That was the right read there and if he steps into the throw they have a chance to make it a one score game.
 

BaseballJones

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Just watched the Mahomes play. What's super frustrating for me about it is that it wasn't even ruled an incomplete pass. After all, a Patriot player (Calhoun) actually caught the ball in the air. So either fumble or interception. Mahomes had been grabbed for a half second...less time than the Patriots had Eli Manning in SB 42 on the Tyree play. So yeah, as @j44thor pointed out, if Mahomes had flipped the ball to Kelce for a 15 yard gain, everyone says wow that was an incredible play by Mahomes, blah blah blah.
 

Silverdude2167

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"In the grasp" needs to be removed from the rule book. Too many mobile QB's are given the benefit of the doubt these days when we see them spun around only to put a hand on the ground get up and run for 20-30 yards or complete a bomb downfield. Either put flags on them or let them play football like every other player on the field. Can't have a grey area penalty when it comes to the most important position in the game. Had Mahommes completed a pass in that situation all we would have heard about was how incredible it is that he can complete a pass while being tackled. The ref called the play dead after the ball was in the hands of the NE DL.
I don't want to say why I thought this, but I thought "In the grasp" was no longer a rule as shown by a famous example that I don't want to name...
 

BaseballJones

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This is the goat thread. But I think Pats' fans have to walk away encouraged by last night's performance. Very difficult trip to make under the circumstances. Playing with a JV level QB (at best). Running game still mashed, despite KC knowing it's coming. The D held KC to 19 points and 323 yards, even though KC got four turnovers. And they got TOTALLY robbed on a huge call on the Mahomes play. Even a decent, turnover-free performance by the offense, and NE probably blows KC out last night.

To me, this is the kind of game that can launch a team in a very positive direction the rest of the way. The QB situation is a problem with Cam out, but here's hoping Stidham can be solid next week (assuming he gets the nod).
 

BigSoxFan

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Hoyer is the only one.
This is my answer unless you want to include refs as well. Every single player on this team gave the Pats a chance to win...except Brian Hoyer.

But I’ll add the refs for the huge missed calls, which is now becoming a “thing” when you play the Chiefs. Mahomes is the darling and will run around and make you look stupid. And when you finally make a play, refs take it back. And they continue to fall for his LeBron James flopping on the sidelines. I really hope someone lights him up. He has turned into a cocky whiner and I don’t like it.

Go anyone but the Chiefs this year.
 

pvg44

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From a Chiefs fan perspective, that game was rough. First, KC was incredibly lucky: 1) Mahomes threw two gift picks that were simply dropped. I'm not sure if the routes were wrong or they were bad throws or both. 2) The fumbleception was a miss. Personally I thought he was in the grasp but without a whistle that was a live play and a turnover. KC was outcoached (O vs D) and outplayed for almost the entire game. The key to me was NE being able to get pressure with just 3 linemen, which allowed 8 to drop in pass protection and confuse Mahomes. Reid and Bienemy channeled their inner Marty Schottenheimer by running CEH to the middle or to the right (Schwarz just isn't a great run blocker) way too often and at bad times, like 2nd & long. How he wasn't used more as a screen/dump of target like he was in the 1st quarter was inexplicable to me. And finally, Hoyer's turnovers in the red zone were killers. And KC's D fattened up on 2nd/3rd string QB blunders yet still got gashed for 200+ rushing yards.

Bottom line is that they need to watch tons of tape again about O-line blocking technique, better play calling, and why their LBs consistently get trucked on running plays. Masterful defensive performance by NE & Belichick. As good as the O was against Baltimore, it was exposed again (as it was in SD) by simply not being able to pass protect.
 

pvg44

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But I’ll add the refs for the huge missed calls, which is now becoming a “thing” when you play the Chiefs. Mahomes is the darling and will run around and make you look stupid. And when you finally make a play, refs take it back. And they continue to fall for his LeBron James flopping on the sidelines. I really hope someone lights him up. He has turned into a cocky whiner and I don’t like it.
My only reply to this is that though I agree that Mahomes can preen at times, please go back and watch almost 20 years of Brady getting calls after whining to the refs.
 

CapeCodYaz

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To me, the whole team, even Hoyer, gets a pass. What a crazy situation to try and play a football game and they held their own against the reigning champs. Defense and O-Line were outstanding for most of the game.

One thing that continues to be a problem for this team is that since Gronk left, they have gotten NOTHING from the Tight End position. Where are the rookies? Hurt and inactive. That really comes to bite them in the ass in the red zone. I have no idea how they score a TD without the fade to Harry or just ramming the ball in on the ground. Cam mitigates a lot of those problems, but they need to get something out of their TEs.
Well accurate throws to Izzo would help. Not saying he is great but those were barely catchable and he could easily have gotten crushed if caught them. Also just once try throwing to them more than twice a game.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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My only reply to this is that though I agree that Mahomes can preen at times, please go back and watch almost 20 years of Brady getting calls after whining to the refs.
Never happened. I don't know why this myth continues to be propagated, but Brady over the course of his career has consistently received the fewest roughing the passer calls in the entire league.

It's amazing what fans will believe.

Mahomes has developed a habit of flopping near the sidelines or touching a toe on the line OOB in order to draw flags. It bears watching.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Well accurate throws to Izzo would help. Not saying he is great but those were barely catchable and he could easily have gotten crushed if caught them. Also just once try throwing to them more than twice a game.
Hoyer was trash last night and if he remains on the team when Cam is healthy I would have to seriously question BB's football judgement. Hoyer's lost his last 11 starts for a reason: he sucks.
 

CapeCodYaz

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Mahommes actually did that last night and he was lucky I thin it was McCourty didn't nail him---that's playing cutesy with the other team and that's going to get him hurt eventually
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Mahommes actually did that last night and he was lucky I thin it was McCourty didn't nail him---that's playing cutesy with the other team and that's going to get him hurt eventually
He's done it a lot and I hate it because he's going to get clocked one day and miss time again which will suck for the league as a whole. He doesn't need to be doing that.
 

BigJimEd

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I don't want to say why I thought this, but I thought "In the grasp" was no longer a rule as shown by a famous example that I don't want to name...
Still there but I think they generally prefer to just state forward progress these days. Plus with more mobile QBs, they let things play out more than they did back then.

They actually did call last year though when an OL had his arms around Dak. Needless to say but the Cowboys and their fans were not pleased.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I really liked Stidham. His stat line won't look good because of the Jules pick, but the second INT was a "down 2 TDs with 3:30 left... I need to take a shot" pick that you can live with. In the first quarter, it would have been inexcusable (IMO) . I can't remember the last time the Pats successfully threw a fade near the goal line, so that was good to see. I liked that they were able to run, when everyone knew that they were going to run.... that should serve them well come trying to protect a 6 point lead with 5:00 left in a game this season My feed was about 45 seconds behind "live", so I received a few "What was he [usually Hoyer] thinking??" texts, that allowed me to brace myself for an upcoming disaster.

Finally... I generally scoff and laugh at the "the refs are in the bag for....." comments. But after last night... not only the fumble/pick whatever play. (ended up being 60? yards of field position lost), there was a Pats player tackled out of bounds, flag thrown.... then picked up. Because...reasons. Mahomes scrambles OB, and then slips on the sideline, and that 15 yarder is called.

I don't know the last time that I felt this encouraged about a loss. Even after week 2 there were some concerns about the D, though Wilson is playing otherworldly right now. I would imagine Stidham gets 1st team reps this week, unless Cam is cleared.
 

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Tony Corrente. Usually fans blame the guy wearing the White Hat when bad calls are made, and it is unfair because they are very rarely involved in making the calls. But last night Corrente himself made the two worst botches of the evening: The in-the-grasp call, and calling a late hit on Mahomes (A foul he threw right over the head of the line judge who was right there). Rough game for a seasoned vet.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Mahomes has developed a habit of flopping near the sidelines or touching a toe on the line OOB in order to draw flags. It bears watching.
It's a bullshit, cheap ass play on Mahomes' part and honestly he's going to get fucking lit up one of these days on it. He's purposely tip toeing down the sideline, giving the defender the choice of letting him get a couple more cheap yards or pushing him out. And then, like last night, when the defender (McCourty) goes to push him out he jumps out first leading to McCourty's "c'mon man" because he almost got the cheap 15 yard flag there. Honestly if I am coaching against him I give the green light for one big hit in that circumstance early in the game to get him to stop doing it. It's bullshit.

And I actually generally like Mahomes.
 

joe dokes

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Edelman was bad but he’s on pace for like 75 receptions for 1200 yards playing with a brand new qb for the first time. I think saying he’s washed is pretty premature
He's not washed *now*, but even if he puts up those numbers, he's in exactly the place where BB doesn't bring him back.
 

BigSoxFan

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My only reply to this is that though I agree that Mahomes can preen at times, please go back and watch almost 20 years of Brady getting calls after whining to the refs.
I literally have watched every Brady game over the last 20 years. If you can point to a play where he flopped LeBron style to draw a call, by all means, share it.
 

pvg44

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Never happened. I don't know why this myth continues to be propagated, but Brady over the course of his career has consistently received the fewest roughing the passer calls in the entire league.

It's amazing what fans will believe.

Mahomes has developed a habit of flopping near the sidelines or touching a toe on the line OOB in order to draw flags. It bears watching.
There is a site called nflpenalties.com that tracks all this stuff. Brady is in the middle based on calls per pass attempt. He’s neither the highest nor the lowest. He is also one of the toughest players i’ve ever seen play at his position or any other. He and Mahomes can take a hit, but Brady (and now perhaps Mahomes) do like to the lobby the refs for the calls. Mahomes just has more instances of it out of the pocket.
 

BigSoxFan

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There is a site called nflpenalties.com that tracks all this stuff. Brady is in the middle based on calls per pass attempt. He’s neither the highest nor the lowest. He is also one of the toughest players i’ve ever seen play at his position or any other. He and Mahomes can take a hit, but Brady (and now perhaps Mahomes) do like to the lobby the refs for the calls. Mahomes just has more instances of it out of the pocket.
There is a difference between lobbying for calls, which everyone does, and actively flopping. You don’t seem to be getting that distinction.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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He's not washed *now*, but even if he puts up those numbers, he's in exactly the place where BB doesn't bring him back.
He's done. I mean it. This isn't the usual "he gets 20 targets a game and so he's gonna drop a few tough ones." He's dropping balls that are easy catches because his body is wrecked and he can't get his hands up quikly enough or with enough strength to catch. Last night was egregious but he had a bunch last year too that were total unforced errors. It's a bad sign, it's exactly what happened to Welker and I think it's an indication he's pretty much done. He'll have a few good games still, but by and large I think he's done as an effective player.
 

Captaincoop

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Hoyer. Those three quarters were a sobering reminder of the pre-Bledsoe/Brady days.
You don't have to go back that far. It felt just like the late Pete Carroll years, when the offense couldn't do anything and the defense could keep them in any game. You'd just wait and wait and wait and eventually the D would make ONE mistake and we'd lose.

Hoyer is the goat for me, no one else. Great effort by every position but the QBs.
 

pvg44

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There is a difference between lobbying for calls, which everyone does, and actively flopping. You don’t seem to be getting that distinction.
OK, whatever. The Mahomes penalty on the out of bounds play will get called 10 times out of ten on any QB. The flop was more on the McCourty play for which I’m glad there was no penalty. I agree that when he plays with the sidelines like that he is inviting a big hit, but so far in his short career he hasn’t gotten too many, nor does he have an exhaustive library of flops. The egregious call in this game was the in the grasp thing, not the roughing penalty.
 

RedOctober3829

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After last night I think Pats go 10-6 at worst. 11-5 more likely. Defense looked worlds better than the last 2 weeks against the best offense they’ll face all year. Running game got 185 with a patchwork OL when they knew all they’d do is fun. Once Cam is back along with Andrews and Mason the offense will be fine. Defensively, Guy and Wise are controlling things up front. Winovich is a problem for opposing offenses. The secondary is only getting better.

That being said, there’s no more room for “moral victories”. Got to take care of business against Denver then take the bye week to reset and come out swinging against SF and Buffalo. 2 wins plus KC beating Buffalo and the 11/1 game at Buffalo is for a share of first.
 

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OK, whatever. The Mahomes penalty on the out of bounds play will get called 10 times out of ten on any QB. The flop was more on the McCourty play for which I’m glad there was no penalty. I agree that when he plays with the sidelines like that he is inviting a big hit, but so far in his short career he hasn’t gotten too many, nor does he have an exhaustive library of flops. The egregious call in this game was the in the grasp thing, not the roughing penalty.
He most certainly flopped.

View: https://twitter.com/British_Raven19/status/1313412378558705669?s=20
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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After last night I think Pats go 10-6 at worst. 11-5 more likely. Defense looked worlds better than the last 2 weeks against the best offense they’ll face all year. Running game got 185 with a patchwork OL when they knew all they’d do is fun. Once Cam is back along with Andrews and Mason the offense will be fine. Defensively, Guy and Wise are controlling things up front. Winovich is a problem for opposing offenses. The secondary is only getting better.

That being said, there’s no more room for “moral victories”. Got to take care of business against Denver then take the bye week to reset and come out swinging against SF and Buffalo. 2 wins plus KC beating Buffalo and the 11/1 game at Buffalo is for a share of first.
I'm not a pro athlete so I don't know how these guys think but I cannot imagine how betrayed they must feel about Hoyer sabotaging the game for them last night, a game they could have won despite terrible circumstances against them. And I can't imagine how they must feel if Hoyer is named the starter against Denver. I can't see that as being good for morale or team unity. You cannot have one guy so bad as to derail the work of all the others, but that's what Hoyer was last night.

He's winless over his last 11 starts for a reason, and if he starts against Denver I would think that's a sign they're not putting their best effort into winning the game. There's no excuse for it.
 

Super Nomario

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Obviously Hoyer was a mess, and Belichick's decision to play him looks pretty bad (though Stidham didn't exactly impress, either). Edelman had the bad drop (not a great game by the non-Byrd receivers generally). Joejuan Williams had at least a couple rough plays on less than ten snaps for the second time this year, which is not a great sign. But all in all, I'd call it the defense's best game of the year.
 

BuellMiller

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I didn't have the sound on, so when I saw the flag notification I figured it was for Winovich getting tackled in the backfield and not for Wise having his hand on Mahomes. But I guess I should have known that holds don't get called anymore. Still don't know how that was a flag, but they picked the flag up on the one where the Patriots runner got spun down well out of bounds.
Also, felt like Mahomes tried to flop on the play in the 1st half when he tiptoed the line and waited for McCourty to push him. At least the refs didn't bite on that one.
 

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After last night I think Pats go 10-6 at worst. 11-5 more likely. Defense looked worlds better than the last 2 weeks against the best offense they’ll face all year. Running game got 185 with a patchwork OL when they knew all they’d do is fun. Once Cam is back along with Andrews and Mason the offense will be fine. Defensively, Guy and Wise are controlling things up front. Winovich is a problem for opposing offenses. The secondary is only getting better.

That being said, there’s no more room for “moral victories”. Got to take care of business against Denver then take the bye week to reset and come out swinging against SF and Buffalo. 2 wins plus KC beating Buffalo and the 11/1 game at Buffalo is for a share of first.
Are there any sites that track advanced metrics on Line play, beyond simply sacks and pressures? Because Wise has been like a new man this year.
 

CFB_Rules

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OK, whatever. The Mahomes penalty on the out of bounds play will get called 10 times out of ten on any QB. The flop was more on the McCourty play for which I’m glad there was no penalty. I agree that when he plays with the sidelines like that he is inviting a big hit, but so far in his short career he hasn’t gotten too many, nor does he have an exhaustive library of flops. The egregious call in this game was the in the grasp thing, not the roughing penalty.
It wasn't a foul. Steratore admitted it on the broadcast. That play gets called 10 times out of 10 by someone who doesn't want to officiate in the NFL for long.
 

cshea

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Wasn't there a similar play in the first half where either Hoyer or an RB kind of lightly got dragged down OOB and there was no flag, or they ended up picking it up? Am I misremembering that?
 

wilked

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This is probably regurgitating but:
1. Dropped INT, pretty high percentage play by McCourty on first drive
2. Dropped INT, extremely high percentage play by Jackson
3. Refs call in the grasp incorrectly, cost the Pats a turnover and great field position
4. Inability to score a TD on 1st and 10 at the 14, eventually with a sack to lose the FG at the end of the half
5. Inability to score later in the red zone, eventually leading to a sack/fumble/turnover
6. Edelman tip / drop leads to pick 6

That's your game there. The above is 20-24 point swing easily.

Edited to add Edelman
 
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lexrageorge

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I don't blame Belichick for playing Hoyer. Hoyer did outplay Stidham in training camp by all accounts, is more familiar with the offense, and was thought to be a competent game manager. BB had to make a last minute decision, so he started the QB that got the backup and scout team snaps all week.

I did not think Stidham looked bad given the circumstances. The pick-6 was 100% on Edelman. The other INT wasn't good, but he was about to be dropped. He obviously doesn't have the pocket awareness that Brady had, but who does?

It will be interesting to see who gets the starter's snaps this week in practice. I have the feeling it will be Stidham, but Hoyer will also get quite a few.

The Pats dropped a couple of INT's, but I think that just goes to show that you cannot rely on turnovers to win a game. There's always some element of randomness to TO's. But the both lines were outstanding and gave the team a chance to win an unwinnable game.

That unnecessary roughness call was awful.