The Giannis Sweepstakes

benhogan

Granite is his new binky
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
9,148
Santa Monica
Bledsoe and Lopez didn’t need to preclude Brogdon, since they owned his Bird rights. And there would have been no obvious issues of fit or minutes-crunch had they re-signed Brogdon, since big, versatile defenders who can play on and off ball fit in any rotation and system. Bledsoe and Brogdon would have been a fine hoops fit.

As with OKC and Harden, the Bucks just cheaped out.
will the same thing be said about the Celtics if they don't get longer-dated assets for Gordon or resign him after '21???

after they've won their 2nd consecutive Championship:banana:
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,784
Kiev, Ukraine
Brogdon would have been nice, but logistically I'm not sure it was ever a possibility. Kemba was a sign and trade (because we were over the cap) with Charlotte that only worked because Charlotte wanted to sign Rozier for big money. I don't see that happening with Milwaukee.
Na, they did the S&T as a convenience to Charlotte to pick up a minor asset. The Cs had room to sigh Kemba outright, and Brogdon would have been less.

Malcolm would have been a great plan B, but also would have made championship contention this year a much longer shot imo.
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
6,540
Maine
how do you build around Giannis and Embiid? Or even Simmons and Giannis.

Honest Question.

Defense suffers with Giannis and Embiid (as strange as that sounds....who plays Jalen or Gordon or Jayson?) While offense suffers with Simmons and Giannis. In both cases 50% of the game suffers.

I guess Giannis Embiid and some great shooters (which we make sound like they are easy to find but they often cant do anything else....and are often not good enough shooters to not to do anything else well) might be an offense that works. But on defense Isnt Giannis defensive value predicated on being in the middle? One of them would need to chase around someone (like Tatum...) on defense.

Thats the catch 22 with Simmons Embiid Giannis....
As the 6ers.....While you would like to ideally keep Simmons and add shooting....or Keep Embiid and add Shooting......Giannis does not add shooting in either case.
As the Bucks you have tried to build around a guy who doesnt shoot (but can drive...) and is a defensive touchstone. Annnnd your plan(if your trade with the 6ers) is to replace him with a guy who cant shoot (but can drive) and is a almost as valuable defensively. Or with a guy who cant drive plays the same amount of mins (and position basically), is not nearly as productive and doesnt have as much defensive capability.

For both teams I dont see a clear path other then some really expensive deck chair moving.

GW makes some sense.

Celts make a WHOLE LOT of BB sense. Tatum and Giannis would be a incredible complimentary duo both Offense and defensively. It would be Pierce and Garnett but younger. Find your Ray Allen and off to the races.
But I am not sure I would want Brown to go.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
35,807
how do you build around Giannis and Embiid? Or even Simmons and Giannis.

Honest Question.

Defense suffers with Giannis and Embiid (as strange as that sounds....who plays Jalen or Gordon or Jayson?) While offense suffers with Simmons and Giannis. In both cases 50% of the game suffers.

I guess Giannis Embiid and some great shooters (which we make sound like they are easy to find but they often cant do anything else....and are often not good enough shooters to not to do anything else well) might be an offense that works. But on defense Isnt Giannis defensive value predicated on being in the middle? One of them would need to chase around someone (like Tatum...) on defense.

Thats the catch 22 with Simmons Embiid Giannis....
As the 6ers.....While you would like to ideally keep Simmons and add shooting....or Keep Embiid and add Shooting......Giannis does not add shooting in either case.
As the Bucks you have tried to build around a guy who doesnt shoot (but can drive...) and is a defensive touchstone. Annnnd your plan(if your trade with the 6ers) is to replace him with a guy who cant shoot (but can drive) and is a almost as valuable defensively. Or with a guy who cant drive plays the same amount of mins (and position basically), is not nearly as productive and doesnt have as much defensive capability.

For both teams I dont see a clear path other then some really expensive deck chair moving.

GW makes some sense.

Celts make a WHOLE LOT of BB sense. Tatum and Giannis would be a incredible complimentary duo both Offense and defensively. It would be Pierce and Garnett but younger. Find your Ray Allen and off to the races.
But I am not sure I would want Brown to go.
You make a Brown + boatload of picks for Giannis offer 100 times out of 100 if he is serious about signing long-term. We’re talking about a soon-to-be 26 year-old about to enter his prime. Jaylen is very good but he’s a secondary option on a title team. You don’t give up his career unless you get a star, which the freak would obviously qualify as.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,721
You make a Brown + boatload of picks for Giannis offer 100 times out of 100 if he is serious about signing long-term. We’re talking about a soon-to-be 26 year-old about to enter his prime. Jaylen is very good but he’s a secondary option on a title team. You don’t give up his career unless you get a star, which the freak would obviously qualify as.
100%. Not even a question. Jaylen's ceiling is annual all-star player. Giannis' ceiling is the best player in the universe. I do wonder what it would do for Tatum to have to go back to being the 1B player instead of the 1A player, because Giannis would be the 1A. But yeah, together, the two of them would be utterly dynamic on both ends of the floor.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
2,171
Cultural hub of the universe
I know that it's the Giannis trade thread, but the wet blanket POV is that what Milwaukee is missing is shooting and slashing around Giannis and Middleton. Same can be said for Philly IMO.

I don't think that Giannis needs a Batman or even another Robin (nor does Embiid/Simmons). They just need a few Alfreds. They're just poorly constructed teams
Don't the Bucks have Mathews (36%), Hill (46%!) and Korver (42%), plus Middleton? Lopez was a good 3 point shooter last year but that seems like maybe a 1 year blip. Connaughton also underperformed from 3. Certainly Brogdon would be a great fit because he's a good all around player, but I think their roster construction is pretty defensible, certainly nothing like Philly's. They've just come up flat after the shutdown, for who knows what reason.

And I agree with others that Giannis next to either Embiid or Simmons makes little sense.

Edit to add: Milwaukee as a team shot 35.5%, Philly actually shot 36.8%, league average was 35.8% from 3.
 

Euclis20

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,453
Imaginationland
Na, they did the S&T as a convenience to Charlotte to pick up a minor asset. The Cs had room to sigh Kemba outright, and Brogdon would have been less.

Malcolm would have been a great plan B, but also would have made championship contention this year a much longer shot imo.
Ah you're correct. Brogdon would have been a really interesting fit as another strong defensive wing who can create his own shot and has 3 point range. Oh well.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,977
Bledsoe and Lopez didn’t need to preclude Brogdon, since they owned his Bird rights. And there would have been no obvious issues of fit or minutes-crunch had they re-signed Brogdon, since big, versatile defenders who can play on and off ball fit in any rotation and system. Bledsoe and Brogdon would have been a fine hoops fit.
The screw-up was even worse than that. They drafted him, they could have signed him to a four year deal outright, something that's been par for the course for high second rounders for a while now. But for some reason, known only to their mismanagement, Milwaukee didn't give themselves a fourth option year. Everyone gives out those 3+1 or 2+2 deals to second rounders they believe in. But not the Bucks, they saved themselves about $1.7 million in the 2020 season.
 

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,106
Berkeley, CA
Ambiguity of like meaning both "such as" or "similar to." But who is there who is similar to those guys who would actually be available? Apart from the Embiid/Simmons bad fit, teams with guys like that are generally looking for the second guy. Trading the guy they have for Giannis feels like a lateral move for that team, and one where GA doesn't seriously consider re-signing.
I agree with you and lovegtm that the ambiguity masquerading as specificity isn’t helpful. Mitchell, Brown are good, although lesser, fits too and only highlighting the top tier muddled things, so thanks for bringing Mitchell up. While I think Tatum specifically would not be on the block due to his age/contract/ and ceiling as a shooter, Simmons absolutely would. Given the Bucks location, a quasi-lateral move, while also subtracting a couple of years in age along with a settled contact status and more time to shed bad contracts, is arguably a good thing. For Philly, if you can then get GA under contract (and you only do the deal with assurances), you can always trade Embiid later for a better fit with GA. Moving deck chairs, yes, but these ships overpaid for some of those chairs and neither ship has much money for fuel right now.
 

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,106
Berkeley, CA
The screw-up was even worse than that. They drafted him, they could have signed him to a four year deal outright, something that's been par for the course for high second rounders for a while now. But for some reason, known only to their mismanagement, Milwaukee didn't give themselves a fourth option year. Everyone gives out those 3+1 or 2+2 deals to second rounders they believe in. But not the Bucks, they saved themselves about $1.7 million in the 2020 season.
Ouch. If the C’s had done something like this, the traces and retraces of it would be spotted in MBPS’s threads for years.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,977
I agree with you and lovegtm that the ambiguity masquerading as specificity isn’t helpful. Mitchell, Brown are good, although lesser, fits too and only highlighting the top tier muddled things, so thanks for bringing Mitchell up. While I think Tatum specifically would not be on the block due to his age/contract/ and ceiling as a shooter, Simmons absolutely would. Given the Bucks location, a quasi-lateral move, while also subtracting a couple of years in age along with a settled contact status and more time to shed bad contracts, is arguably a good thing. For Philly, if you can then get GA under contract (and you only do the deal with assurances), you can always trade Embiid later for a better fit with GA. Moving deck chairs, yes, but these ships overpaid for some of those chairs and neither ship has much money for fuel right now.
I mean if Giannis will sign there you absolutely make the move of Simmons for GA. Milwaukee would undoubtedly like to unload Bledsoe if they're retooling, but something like Antetokounmpo/Bledsoe for Simmons/Richardson works in the next fiscal year. That leaves Philly with the option of moving Embiid to improve the surrounding cast around Giannis.
 

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,106
Berkeley, CA
Tying Bledsoe to GA helps the deal make more sense from the Bucks perspective for sure. I guess Philly could leverage GA’s lack of a contract in a game of chicken. I’d further guess Philly’d blink first.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
Embiid feels like, of all second stars, the number one pick for "Guy who'd work least well next to Giannis."
I think you’d have to have a plan to move Embiid in a separate deal for a couple complementary players. Haven’t thought much about where and for whom, because there’s almost no chance that will happen — the resulting Sixers roster would end up looking a lot like the Bucks with Tobias Harris in the Khris Middleton role, so if Giannis is unhappy with the situation in Milwaukee, I don’t think he’d be happy in Philly.
 

GreenMonster49

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
385
Miami with Bam + Iguodala and Olynyk
Philly with Embiid

Tons of draft picks moving to Milwaukee for either team. Trying to think of worst-case scenarios vis-a-vis the Celtics.
Miami literally has no first round picks to trade unless it acquires one: its 2021 pick is spoken for and its 2023 pick is protected with the protection rolling over to 2024, 2025, and 2026. It does have a 2022 second-round pick incoming (less favorable of Philadelphia's or Denver's) and its own 2024 pick will stay home if it is the 31th to 50th pick.

Philadelphia is in a better position. They have a surfeit of second-round picks (including three 2020 picks they picked up in trades and one extra 2021 pick). Brooklyn has their 2020 first round pick, but Philly has OKC's 2020 pick this year. So, they could trade up to four first round picks without making another move, but they would have to be 2020 (OKC)+2022+2024+2026, thanks to the combination of the Stepien Rule and the seven-year limit on trading future picks.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
14,394
Pittsburgh, PA
Why are we assuming Philly would look to trade Simmons rather than Embiid? I feel like Giannis fits better with Simmons than he does with Embiid, and any team willing to give up one or the other can probably dictate that the other one is off the table.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,977
Why are we assuming Philly would look to trade Simmons rather than Embiid? I feel like Giannis fits better with Simmons than he does with Embiid, and any team willing to give up one or the other can probably dictate that the other one is off the table.
That's a team that's going to have some shooting difficulties. Because neither guy can really play off the ball.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
14,394
Pittsburgh, PA
I like that they speculate about Milwaukee acquiring Chris Paul. The thought of getting some Bucks unprotected first-rounders in the 3-7 year time horizon probably makes Sam Presti hard enough to drill for oil.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
6,979
NYC
Yeah, sounds pretty definitive. I suppose there may be some wiggle room between not demanding a trade and quietly letting the FO he probably won’t be re-signing (so their call if they want to get some assets for him) but we’ll see...
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
34,308
Yeah, sounds pretty definitive. I suppose there may be some wiggle room between not demanding a trade and quietly letting the FO he probably won’t be re-signing (so their call if they want to get some assets for him) but we’ll see...
Simmons won't be a bad consolation prize for the Dubs.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
2,870
Brogdon would’ve made a big difference. If the Bucks were unwilling to dip into the tax for one of their own homegrown players, what makes us think they’ll engineer a trade for someone like 35 year old CP3? Do they even have enough for someone like Bradley Beal?
 

Royal Reader

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2005
1,807
UK
Brogdon would’ve made a big difference. If the Bucks were unwilling to dip into the tax for one of their own homegrown players, what makes us think they’ll engineer a trade for someone like 35 year old CP3? Do they even have enough for someone like Bradley Beal?
Because letting Brogdon go was an error, and now they potentially have an unhappy superstar one year from FA. Wouldn't be the first NBA franchise to back themselves into a corner like that.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,784
Kiev, Ukraine
Simmons won't be a bad consolation prize for the Dubs.
The problem there though is that the GSW package is more of a rebuilding one, no? (Simmons on the Dubs would be instant title favorites).

To make SRN feel better: the Giannis situation is far from over. Everyone says the right things now, but if the Bucks have a rocky start next year, all bets are off. Also, as I mentioned, the Bucks will get a chance to audition GSW's 1st rounder for free if no deal happens, so they could get more of an inside track if the guy looks good (obviously the converse is true also).
 

benhogan

Granite is his new binky
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
9,148
Santa Monica
Didn't realize that Giannis had so much 2019 Playoff Kyrie in him; maybe the magic juice rubbed off during that series:

View: https://twitter.com/ScoutWithBryan/status/1302307225763971072?s=20
Kenny Smith said it best the other night, "it's NOT a miss or make league, its a good shot/bad shot league"

The whole team collectively deflates after an early shot clock, contested jumper...especially the long 2. Must make the others really inspired to hustle back and play good team defense.

Bad shot selection is poisonous at any level, Saturday morning Y or NBA playoffs.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,784
Kiev, Ukraine
Kenny Smith said it best the other night, "it's NOT a miss or make league, its a good shot/bad shot league"

The whole team collectively deflates after an early shot clock, contested jumper...especially the long 2. Must make the others really inspired to hustle back and play good team defense.

Bad shot selection is poisonous at any level, Saturday morning Y or NBA playoffs.
Yeah, I was just honestly surprised to see Giannis making such egregiously bad plays while his team still had a chance. I don't see how any of those shots are defensible, given his skillset, proximity of the defender, and the shot clock.
 

benhogan

Granite is his new binky
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
9,148
Santa Monica
Get excited for another regular season during which "analysts" repeatedly cite the Bucks "historical point differential!" as a reason for why, this time, it's different.
Buck coaches/executives should be pointing their fingers at all the terrible things that interrupted their "historical point differential" season. If the media/analysts do their bidding, great for them. If they need to replace Coach Bud with Ty Lue they should do it. Add shooters around him, get it done.

Their #1 goal is to get Giannis to sign on that dotted line and not pull an AD.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
46,284
deep inside Guido territory
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. — Milwaukee Bucks star Giannis Antetokounmpo met with ownership Saturday afternoon to discuss the future of the franchise, league sources told Yahoo Sports.


Last season’s MVP and this year’s Defensive Player of the Year met privately with co-owner Marc Lasry, sources said.

The meeting came on the same day the 6-foot-11 star unfollowed hundreds on Twitter and Instagram, including the Bucks team account and his teammates’ accounts.

 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,048
Supposedly Lasry told Giannis the team will spend into the luxury tax.

Given that they let Brogdon go last year in part to avoid doing so, I have to think Giannis was kind of like "great to hear that now, but I neither believe you nor is it likely to help that much this late in the process"
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
35,807
Supposedly Lasry told Giannis the team will spend into the luxury tax.

Given that they let Brogdon go last year in part to avoid doing so, I have to think Giannis was kind of like "great to hear that now, but I neither believe you nor is it likely to help that much this late in the process"
Lol yup. Yes, we just let a great player go but NOW we’re serious!

Ok, how are we going to add more talent given that we are over the cap and only have MLE?

Umm...
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
14,394
Pittsburgh, PA
That could make a good thread all on its own, though this one is perfectly fine for it:

- You're Jon Horst. Marc Lasry has told you you need to convince Giannis to stay, and has given you total carte blanche to do so
- You can spend whatever you like, trade away whatever you like, just make the 20-21 team as fearsome as possible
- Giannis has said he's going to wait and see until after the draft before making a decision to demand a trade or not

What can you do?

- You can take on additional salary from the 20% buffers around trades in and out.
- You have basically no free agents to renounce, maybe Korver at $2.5, Connaughton at $1.7, but that's it. Your 2021 commitments stand at $132.3, unless you convince Robin Lopez and/or Wesley Matthews to decline their options.
- 2021 limits are projected to be Cap $115M, Luxury Tax at $139M, Tax Apron at $145M, but that was pre-pandemic. Let's just assume that remains the case and the NBA eats some of the difference with an agreement to make it up later in reduced increases, just so there's not a big drop that crunches the market.
- It'd be fun to imagine that they might be able to Amnesty Eric Bledsoe, but that's speculative right now.
- You do own all of your first-rounders after this year, plus #24 this year from Indy, and maybe the Cavs' pick in 2022.

So you have some assets, but also a very tight financial straitjacket requiring either unloading some salary to enable the full MLE, or giving other teams salary relief + picks in order to trade you better players. I think you could find some trade partners out there, it's just going to cost Lasry an arm and a leg. Could you get Ayton from Phoenix? Is there a package that could upgrade Bledsoe / Hill / etc into Damian Lillard, if Portland decides they can't compete under the supermax? I'm no NBA trade-speculation expert, I just want to hear from those who are.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,784
Kiev, Ukraine
That could make a good thread all on its own, though this one is perfectly fine for it:

- You're Jon Horst. Marc Lasry has told you you need to convince Giannis to stay, and has given you total carte blanche to do so
- You can spend whatever you like, trade away whatever you like, just make the 20-21 team as fearsome as possible
- Giannis has said he's going to wait and see until after the draft before making a decision to demand a trade or not

What can you do?

- You can take on additional salary from the 20% buffers around trades in and out.
- You have basically no free agents to renounce, maybe Korver at $2.5, Connaughton at $1.7, but that's it. Your 2021 commitments stand at $132.3, unless you convince Robin Lopez and/or Wesley Matthews to decline their options.
- 2021 limits are projected to be Cap $115M, Luxury Tax at $139M, Tax Apron at $145M, but that was pre-pandemic. Let's just assume that remains the case and the NBA eats some of the difference with an agreement to make it up later in reduced increases, just so there's not a big drop that crunches the market.
- It'd be fun to imagine that they might be able to Amnesty Eric Bledsoe, but that's speculative right now.
- You do own all of your first-rounders after this year, plus #24 this year from Indy, and maybe the Cavs' pick in 2022.

So you have some assets, but also a very tight financial straitjacket requiring either unloading some salary to enable the full MLE, or giving other teams salary relief + picks in order to trade you better players. I think you could find some trade partners out there, it's just going to cost Lasry an arm and a leg. Could you get Ayton from Phoenix? Is there a package that could upgrade Bledsoe / Hill / etc into Damian Lillard, if Portland decides they can't compete under the supermax? I'm no NBA trade-speculation expert, I just want to hear from those who are.
As Darryl Morey showed, there are few limits on what an irresponsible and desperate GM can do.

A Bertans overpay and S&T could be interesting.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
2,870
Have to figure they’ll be in discussions for Chris Paul or Bradley Beal to be the #2 star.

I assume the package would be something along the lines of Bledsoe + DiVincenzo + picks.

Is that enough? If not, unsure how they’ll move more salary to make it work.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
2,503
Saint Paul, MN
Have to figure they’ll be in discussions for Chris Paul or Bradley Beal to be the #2 star.

I assume the package would be something along the lines of Bledsoe + DiVincenzo + picks.

Is that enough? If not, unsure how they’ll move more salary to make it work.
That is nowhere near enough salary going to OKC though. They have to get up to like 33 million. So either they have to get very creative, or ship out Middleton
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,048
They can only get to Beal with Middleton plus potential post-Giannis picks I imagine.

The problem with Paul Is salary matching. You could do Bledsoe, the good Lopez, and Hill. But if you’re OKC don’t you want picks too? You have no role for Lopez. And does that really make Milwaukee better? Don’t think so.

I think they need to be thinking about Bledsoe and future picks for a $15 mil ish guy. Is that enough? You gotta get the right guy and make it work
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
14,394
Pittsburgh, PA
I think you can get Beal without giving up Middleton. Bucks send out Bledsoe ($15.6), Ilyasova ($7.0), Robin Lopez ($4.8), that's sufficient to within a couple draft picks or so. The guard rotation suffers a bit, the depth takes a hit and you have a lot of eggs in the 34yo George Hill basket as your starting PG... but he complements Giannis and Middleton well, I think.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,977
It’s not a matter of salary, it’s a matter of Washington having Beal long term and no need to trade him for a bucket of pig slops. If the Bucks want him they’re going to have to pay because if the Wiz put him on the open market they’re going to get much better bids.
 

Euclis20

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,453
Imaginationland
Is Beal actually better than Middleton? Not if you're including defense me thinks.
Beal is light-years ahead of Middleton offensively. They have pretty similar efficiency numbers, but Beal does it at a much higher volume while being by far the best scoring option on his team. I'm not stressing about his defense, the defensive effort of offensive superstars on terrible teams is universally bad. Beal is also a couple of years younger and has taken some big jumps the last few seasons.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
17,312
Bradley Beal is awesome and for some reason SoSH thinks he’s mediocre and it’s kind of weird.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,784
Kiev, Ukraine
Bradley Beal is awesome and for some reason SoSH thinks he’s mediocre and it’s kind of weird.
Yeah, he's a legit star offensive player. I'd love for the Celtics to target him, not least because he and Tatum would be super-happy about it and because that combo would be indefensible.

If there were any way to get him without giving up Jaylen, I'd jump all over it. Jaylen+ likely gets it done, and that comes down to an evaluation of whether Jaylen is currently overrated by the league and so you'd be selling high.