The glut of Middle Infielders: who do you keep and who goes and what could they bring in return?

[ALiveH]

Next year should be a key year of information gathering, development and performance at the majors and high minors levels. The Sox need to figure out which players are keepers and trade the rest for good pitching assets, e.g., high minors prospects. It should take 1-2 years to sort out based on performance and injuries and the Sox should ideally emerge with cost controlled high quality players at nearly every position, with excess talent traded off for pitching, and a good chunk of the salary savings allocated to high end pitching.

Can bring up Teel to have a Wong / Teel platoon.

2B and DH should be open next year. So, Campbell / Yorke / Mayer can be brought up to share 2B / SS / DH between them and Story (who could get reinjured anytime).

Abreu and Yoshida's performances have been middling and Yoshida is a trade candidate. Depending on Abreu faltering / getting injured, that could open another OF spot for competition (Anthony).

Depending on bad performance / injuries among the above-mentioned players or within the Grissom / Hamilton / Refsneyder / Romy group I'd also expect some opportunities for Meidroth and Lugo.

 

[grimshaw]

Revisiting this because of the pleasant problem that has become "worse" as the future deep depth looms large.

Romy's statcast numbers suggest he would earn the opportunity in a vacuum of Romy'ing around elsewhere as a 2nd division starter with a fair chance to play against righties. In other words, the perfect Marlin. As it stands for this roster, one would think he would be a platoon guy once Grissom gets another shot and Hamilton becomes long term injury insurance or off-season trade candidate. Romy also still has options and barely a year of accrued MLB time.

 

[chrisfont9]

Hamilton is an agonizing one for me. He seems to be in the middle of the action a lot for a guy with meh numbers. Obviously a walk is essentially a double or even a triple, the stuff that really pressures opposing pitching. I wouldn't be in a hurry to crowd him out.

 

[scottyno]

Hamilton is an agonizing one for me. He seems to be in the middle of the action a lot for a guy with meh numbers. Obviously a walk is essentially a double or even a triple, the stuff that really pressures opposing pitching. I wouldn't be in a hurry to crowd him out.

He's the 3rd best base-runner this year on a per game basis according to fangraphs metrics. That skill won't go away for awhile, so if his offense and defense this year are real, both around league average, he's definitely really useful over the next few years.

 

[moondog80]

Hamilton seems like a good utility guy/pinch runner for the Red Sox, or maybe a trade chip to a team with financial constraints for a bigger role.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Hamilton seems like a good utility guy/pinch runner for the Red Sox, or maybe a trade chip to a team with financial constraints for a bigger role.

Romy can play a decent 1B or 3B too. He really needs to be kept around

 

[moondog80]

Romy can play a decent 1B or 3B too. He really needs to be kept around

I don't see them both being on the team next year, not with all the other options available. But yes, Romy is a useful guy. Does have 4 more years of club control and 2 options left.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Hamilton and Valdez seem like the guys to move, to me; primarily by virtue of being LHB and the poorest fit with the rest of the lineup, and potentially having some trade value (esp. Hamilton). Good problems to have.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Hamilton and Valdez seem like the guys to move, to me; primarily by virtue of being LHB and the poorest fit with the rest of the lineup, and potentially having some trade value (esp. Hamilton). Good problems to have.

Although, if--big if--Grissom ends up being the primary second baseman next season, wouldn't a LHB actually be a better fit as a backup? Sort of seems to me like Romy is the one to go and Hamilton is the one to stay.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Although, if--big if--Grissom ends up being the primary second baseman next season, wouldn't a LHB actually be a better fit as a backup? Sort of seems to me like Romy is the one to go and Hamilton is the one to stay.

Yeah, that makes sense too. Further complicating matters is the potential return of Story and that what means for Rafaela. I would assume the potential return for Hamilton would be greater than Romy, but could be wrong on that.

 

[chilidawg]

Interesting thread. I think it's probably important to keep an eye on the years of arrival for a few of these guys: the teenagers are exciting, but really shouldn't factor into any kind of succession planning until they reach AA or so.

Furthermore, Hamilton, Valdez, González, and Sogard look really important because Mayer should not at any point be our 40-man depth infielder — he should be promoted when we are ready to start him at SS — and Story will need to be back on the 40 for the offseason. Having optionable guys who are playable but not part of the long-term plan eases the roster-construction logic problem.

Here's how I would break these guys down:

• Starting-caliber players in the middle infield (current or plausible)
  • Story. Five-tool player with developing questions about durability and contact against RHP at this stage in his career.
    • RHH. Growing platoon splits.
    • Age 31. 9-year MLB veteran.
    • Signed through 2027 with an option for 2028.
  • Grissom. Hit-over-power infielder with questions about his defense at SS and optimism that he might grow into more pop. Probably 2B only, but he looked fine there to me.
    • RHH. Little to no platoon split.
    • Age 23. MLB.
    • FA in 2030. Two options remaining.
  • Mayer. Top prospect who may grow out of SS in his late 20s, but should stick at the position for a half-decade or so. Should be a top-10 prospect in a lot of the mid-year lists.
    • LHH. Has struggled against breaking stuff from lefties, but anecdotally may be making that adjustment.
    • Age 21. AA.
    • Doesn't need to be added to the 40 man until Dec. '25, so probably won't crack the 40 man until they call him up to play everyday.
• Starting-caliber hitters with positional questions
  • Campbell. I am over-the-moon excited about this guy's RH bat, but is he actually an infielder? The team has been playing him in the outfield and DH as much as 2B.
    • RHH.
    • Age 21. AA.
    • Doesn't need to be added to the 40 man until Dec. '26.
  • Yorke. I put him here, but I am worried that he doesn't hit enough to be a starter at 2B/LF/DH only, and doesn't provide enough defensive value to be a good fit for a utility role. Promising recent play at AAA, though!
    • RHH.
    • Age 22. AAA.
    • Needs to be added to the 40 man Dec. '24. I expect him to be traded.
  • Zanatello. Sky's the limit with this kid, but he's 19. A long way to go. Might be an outfielder.
    • RHH.
    • Age 19. A.
    • Doesn't need to be added to the 40 man until Dec. '27.
  • Cespedes. Sky's the limit with this kid, but he's 18. A long way to go. Might be an outfielder.
    • RHH.
    • Age 18. RK.
    • Doesn't need to be added to the 40 man until Dec. '27.
• Platoon/utility types (flawed players with a carrying tool)
  • Rafaela. I added one to the list. Not a great SS, but his ability to play there is useful for the roster. He should really be in CF.
    • RHH.
    • Age 23.
    • Signed through 2030, with team options until 2032.
  • Hamilton. Below average at SS, but the line drive approach and insane speed makes him a pretty useful utility guy.
    • LHH.
    • Age 27. MLB.
    • FA in 2030. Two options remaining.
  • González. He can do a ton of things: play everywhere (and pretty decently!), post a league-average OBP, has shown pop in the past that we haven't really seen yet in Boston.
    • RHH.
    • Age 27. MLB.
    • FA in 2029. Two options remaining.
  • Sogard. The Platonic ideal of a utility infielder. Does everything okay.
    • SH.
    • Age 26. AAA.
    • Needs to be added to the 40 man Dec. '24. I would keep him over Yorke and Paulino.
• Depth pieces (very useful while they have options, less so thereafter)
  • Paulino. Can't hit lefties at all, which limits his upside. Not a factor in any plans at the moment, but his good glove at multiple infield spots and track record against RHP looks promising for a bench role.
    • LHH.
    • Age 21. AA.
    • Needs to be added to the 40 man Dec. '24. I doubt we protect him, and I don't think he'd be picked.
  • Valdez. Improved to passable at 2B, and the LHH pop is legitimate. But he can't hit lefties, and he isn't a good defender.
    • LHH.
    • Age 25. MLB.
    • FA in 2030. Two options remaining.
  • Meidroth. I am skeptical about his offensive profile, but I really want to see him in the majors to see if it can work.
    • RHH.
    • Age 22. AAA.
    • Needs to be added to the 40 man Dec. '25.
  • Romero. Hard to tell what we have here with all the injuries.
    • LHH.
    • Age 20.
    • Needs to be added to the 40 man Dec. '26.
• Career minor leaguers
  • Westbrook. We've just seen his upside, and it was as a borderline-unplayable infield defender who can hit a bit.
    • RHH.
    • Age 29. AAA.
    • Minor league free agent.

This aged well. Spot on about Yorke and Paulino.

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

Yeah, that makes sense too. Further complicating matters is the potential return of Story and that what means for Rafaela. I would assume the potential return for Hamilton would be greater than Romy, but could be wrong on that.

I'd be down with a starting outfield of Duran, Rafaela, and Abreu with Ref or O'Neill as the 4th outfielder. Maybe Yoshida gets a handful of games in left or is at least available as an emergency in-game OF.

 

[Fishy1]

I'd keep in mind that one of the strengths of this year's team was its depth. When Story and Grissom went down, we had Rafaela, Romy, Hamilton and Valdez all there, ready to step into their place.

I'm bullish on Story's return and hope he can be the hitter he once was, but in terms of the future of this team... I wouldn't want to sell two of the above three in the offseason even with Campbell and Mayer in the pipeline. One? Yes. Two? No. A couple of injuries and we're razor thin in the middle infield again.

I love Hamilton's speed (still don't love his bat, but hope he continues this hot streak), I love that Romy can basically play all over the diamond, and I would love Valdez if his glove weren't radioactive. omy also has the flexibility and willingness to play the outfield and looked alright out there in limited time, and would surely improve with reps. Considering the optionability of Romy and Hamilton, I wouldn't be eager to ship either of them out until we're sure that Story and Grissom are ready to play, and that Mayer and Campbell are beating up on AAA pitchers.

I'd honestly keep Romy over Hamilton if only because the former's glove is better and he has more flexibility. I love Hamilton's speed, of course, and that gives him a terrific floor to work with. He'd make an excellent starting second baseman, IMO, which also might be why he has the most value to another team. If anybody of that group can actually be part of a package for a major league pitcher, I'd bet on it being him, especially if he closes this year out hot.

 

[grimshaw]

Although, if--big if--Grissom ends up being the primary second baseman next season, wouldn't a LHB actually be a better fit as a backup? Sort of seems to me like Romy is the one to go and Hamilton is the one to stay.

I completely blanked that Grissom was right-handed so that does make things more complicated.

 

[simplicio]

Long term for Romy (and we control him for 4 more years, what were the White Sox thinking?) the need for a RHB is going to persist, so I think he retains a bench spot in Boston unless they specifically go out and get a corner backup. Next year seems likely to end up with Story and Grissom up the middle, but that still leaves him both corners of the IF and OF as viable paths to playing time. And as the LH ATM trio phases in, his bat grows in value. He really is Brock Holt with upgrades to pretty much every tool and it's hard to imagine what could be more valuable than that coming off the bench, so long as he maintains health and performance.

I think Cora is also loving being extremely aggressive with pinch hitters (as evidenced by the fact that we co-lead MLB in PH PA with 129), which is mostly enabled by the versatility of Romy and Rafaela.

My guess as to next year's bench:
Catcher
Refsnyder
Romy
Hamilton

 

[chrisfont9]

Yeah, that makes sense too. Further complicating matters is the potential return of Story and that what means for Rafaela. I would assume the potential return for Hamilton would be greater than Romy, but could be wrong on that.

Assume Rafaela becomes CF for life? Which probably forces them to move off Yoshida (other thread, probably supplementing his salary) to have the extra OF options around getting PAs.

But you don't bank on Story more than a year at a time, I'd think.

 

[tbrown_01923]

My guess as to next year's bench:
Catcher
Refsnyder
Romy
Hamilton

My guess too with romys handedness and ability to play corner positions which might come in handy for a handful or two of games (e.g, rotating Casas, devers into dh on occasion). Have we seen Hamilton in the outfield? Is he deep depth there too?

 

[nvalvo]

My guess too with romys handedness and ability to play corner positions which might come in handy for a handful or two of games (e.g, rotating Casas, devers into dh on occasion). Have we seen Hamilton in the outfield? Is he deep depth there too?

8 games between Portland and Worcester.

 

[jwbasham84]

But you also have to remember that Romy has elite speed too... Baseball Savant has Romy in the 91st percentile and Hamilton in the 94th... Hamilton is the better base stealer, but Romy can fly as well....

 

[benhogan]

Assume Rafaela becomes CF for life? Which probably forces them to move off Yoshida (other thread, probably supplementing his salary) to have the extra OF options around getting PAs.

Does Duran have the arm strength to play RF in Fenway?

 

[scottyno]

But you also have to remember that Romy has elite speed too... Baseball Savant has Romy in the 91st percentile and Hamilton in the 94th... Hamilton is the better base stealer, but Romy can fly as well....

Romy doesn't seem to be using his speed effectively though, advanced metrics have him around average or slightly below

 

[chrisfont9]

Does Duran have the arm strength to play RF in Fenway?

Wilyer has the whole package, I'd be shocked if they move off him before Anthony forces a move (2026?). So Duran in LF and backup CF when they go with a bunch of LHH.

 

[benhogan]

Wilyer has the whole package, I'd be shocked if they move off him before Anthony forces a move (2026?). So Duran in LF and backup CF when they go with a bunch of LHH.

Like Wilyer in LF. Duran's speed is somewhat wasted playing LF in Fenway, especially with a massive RF.

 

[jwbasham84]

Duran's speed would certainly be an asset in RF but he doesn't have the arm to hold runners from taking third base or trying to score like Wilyer does. Wilyer has an absolute cannon with arm strength rated in the 99th percentile by Baseball savant (though his arm value is only the 65th percentile because he can be a bit wild with throws at times), while Duran has an arm strength rating of 76 but an arm value of 85% because he tends to be more accurate with his throws... I mean there are positives. But Wilyer grades out in the 83rd percentile in range with Duran in the 95th. So yes Duran covers more ground but Wilyer is no slouch.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Duran's speed would certainly be an asset in RF but he doesn't have the arm to hold runners from taking third base or trying to score like Wilyer does. Wilyer has an absolute cannon with arm strength rated in the 99th percentile by Baseball savant (though his arm value is only the 65th percentile because he can be a bit wild with throws at times), while Duran has an arm strength rating of 76 but an arm value of 85% because he tends to be more accurate with his throws... I mean there are positives. But Wilyer grades out in the 83rd percentile in range with Duran in the 95th. So yes Duran covers more ground but Wilyer is no slouch.

Duran's lateral speed in front of the Monster actually is fantastic. It allows Rafaela to cheat to more vertical positionings and slightly towards RF in Fenway. I love the 3 of them in the OF with RFsnyder and (hopefully a quick recovery) O'Neill

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Well - dating myself here - Mickey Rivers would be an excellent comp - he had a complete noodle arm but consistently had high assist totals. Why/how? Well , obviously guys ran on him a lot but his outstanding speed meant he’d get to the ball quicker than anticipated.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rivermi01.shtml

 

[Al Zarilla]

Duran's lateral speed in front of the Monster actually is fantastic. It allows Rafaela to cheat to more vertical positionings and slightly towards RF in Fenway. I love the 3 of them in the OF with RFsnyder and (hopefully a quick recovery) O'Neill

I don’t know if he does, but Duran could also play shallower in LF to catch some line drives and bloops that would touch down in front of slower guys, while being able to get back to the wall to catch balls because of his speed.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Well - dating myself here -

I hope you get lucky later tonight.

 

[simplicio]

I don’t know if he does, but Duran could also play shallower in LF to catch some line drives and bloops that would touch down in front of slower guys, while being able to get back to the wall to catch balls because of his speed.

"but what if I ran directly at the giant metal wall even faster?"

 

[chrisfont9]

Like Wilyer in LF. Duran's speed is somewhat wasted playing LF in Fenway, especially with a massive RF.

Sure but speed isn't the only thing. Wilyer has a pretty sophisticated sense of the angles, the sun etc. And he's not slow. And his arm is better.

 

[benhogan]

Sure but speed isn't the only thing. Wilyer has a pretty sophisticated sense of the angles, the sun etc. And he's not slow. And his arm is better.

Cool. Makes sense with Wilyer's arm strength to play RF, especially if his range is decent...

Duran's more accurate arm will play better in LF

 

[YTF]

Like Wilyer in LF. Duran's speed is somewhat wasted playing LF in Fenway, especially with a massive RF.

Sort of fixing something that's not broken isn't it?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Sure but speed isn't the only thing. Wilyer has a pretty sophisticated sense of the angles, the sun etc. And he's not slow. And his arm is better.

Yeah, speed can be overrated in outfield play. Particularly in RF. They don't need a burner out there, even with the size and dimensions at Fenway. There have been plenty of good to great RF defenders in Sox history who had fair/good speed but also excellent fundamentals and instincts and a strong arm. Guys like Dewey and JD Drew. Abreu could be described in similar terms.

 

[YTF]

Long term for Romy (and we control him for 4 more years, what were the White Sox thinking?) the need for a RHB is going to persist, so I think he retains a bench spot in Boston unless they specifically go out and get a corner backup. Next year seems likely to end up with Story and Grissom up the middle, but that still leaves him both corners of the IF and OF as viable paths to playing time. And as the LH ATM trio phases in, his bat grows in value. He really is Brock Holt with upgrades to pretty much every tool and it's hard to imagine what could be more valuable than that coming off the bench, so long as he maintains health and performance.

I think Cora is also loving being extremely aggressive with pinch hitters (as evidenced by the fact that we co-lead MLB in PH PA with 129), which is mostly enabled by the versatility of Romy and Rafaela.

My guess as to next year's bench:
Catcher
Refsnyder
Romy
Hamilton

So with the exception of DH this pretty much assumes no new position players being brought in during the off season?

 

[barclay]

Someone much better versed in the possibilities than me might think to start a "glut of outfielders" thread. Look at who we have and who is on the farm: Cey Hey, Abreu, RR, Duran, Montgomery, Anthony, Campbell, Castro, Joshy-whats-his-name, Bleis. I mean, it's incredible. Who stays, who goes? Time has something to do with it for sure. But even so. Have at it guys. Love to see what you have to say.

 

[benhogan]

Sort of fixing something that's not broken isn't it?

Yea, I'm pretty casual fan these days was just wondering if his speed would play out there

 

[simplicio]

So with the exception of DH this pretty much assumes no new position players being brought in during the off season?

Pretty much. To me we look like an awkward fit for impact FA, and I really like the team we'll have available to put out there already. Grissom (and Story's health/hitting) are the wild cards here, but are you really going to go hard after Adames with Mayer in the pipeline and effectively writing them both off? Or pay for Santander at Abreu’s (or Masa's I guess) expense?

 

[YTF]

Pretty much. To me we look like an awkward fit for impact FA, and I really like the team we'll have available to put out there already. Grissom (and Story's health/hitting) are the wild cards here, but are you really going to go hard after Adames with Mayer in the pipeline and effectively writing them both off? Or pay for Santander at Abreu’s (or Masa's I guess) expense?

I pretty much agree. I think the non pitching roster is pretty much set. I expect we might see one or two changes possibly due to a trade for pitching, but I think the bulk of the money spent this coming off season will be spent on the pitching staff.

 

[simplicio]

Agree, I do think they seriously go after Burnes.

 

[chrisfont9]

Yea, I'm pretty casual fan these days was just wondering if his speed would play out there

It helps. The way I'd put it is, a lack of speed is disqualifying, for sure. But then the other stuff...

 

[Yo La Tengo]

Rafaela is pretty much a perfect complimentary match for Story on this roster. Speaking of which….


Story said he's been doing both tee and flip drills without pain recently as part of his shoulder progression.
"Over the last two weeks, the swings have been really good. Really no hesitation or hold-back in the swing, and I think that's why we're feeling optimistic about it."

 

[nighthob]

Someone much better versed in the possibilities than me might think to start a "glut of outfielders" thread. Look at who we have and who is on the farm: Cey Hey, Abreu, RR, Duran, Montgomery, Anthony, Campbell, Castro, Joshy-whats-his-name, Bleis. I mean, it's incredible. Who stays, who goes? Time has something to do with it for sure. But even so. Have at it guys. Love to see what you have to say.

I suspect that if Bleis hits at Portland next year that he’s going to be the centerpiece of a pitching trade. With Anthony and Montgomery behind him Bleis is the guy that’s going to get sacrificed.

 

[Tuor]

I suspect that if Bleis hits at Portland next year that he’s going to be the centerpiece of a pitching trade. With Anthony and Montgomery behind him Bleis is the guy that’s going to get sacrificed.

Sounds like an excellent plan. We have at least 6-7 actual or potential plus starters for the outfield in the organization right now. If we can turn one of the younger and less certain ones into a quality young pitcher with years of control, we obviously do that.