The Goat Thread: SBLII vs Eagles

twibnotes

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Belichick deservedly gets his balls washed when we win, and tonight he deserves the criticism. We were clearly out coached tonight.
 

Super Nomario

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I would like to give the Eagles their credit, too. They played a hell of a game. Pllllenty of blame to go around on the Pats side, but in the end, you are what you do. Pats got beat.
I know its unpopular here and we can attribute it to the bad defense and inexplicable coaching decisions, however Foles played a fantastic game. His throws were on point, and often were made while on the run. A few balls were perfectly placed along the sidelines or, simply where only his receivers could catch them. Its frustrating because he has generally looked mediocre for large stretches of his career but these last two games, he was exceptional.
 

streeter88

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
That is a really good question. It looked like they were able to clamp down on the run in the 2nd half (or at least in the 4th quarter). But in the first half it didn’t look like they were able to stop anything.
 

BigSoxFan

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
Game plan was to make Jordan Richards beat us.
 

TheoShmeo

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Bill. I love him but he has to wear the inexcusable Butler call. This will go on the all time bad coaching decisions list. So strange, especially given how great BB is.

Richards. Terrible all night long.

The D line. No sacks, no pressure.

Tom as receiver. Catch that.

Josh in the first half. Too cutesy. Straight up football would have worked better.

Gost. Missed extra points are just bad. And while the snap sucked on the FG, Gost didn’t bail them out. And if I’m wrong on Gost for the FG, then add Cardona to the list.

Cooks on the end around. Run around the defender, not over him.

Patricia. Whatever your plan was sucked ass.
 

nattysez

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This is the first of BB’s 8 SBs I’d say he was outcoached. Guess it had to happen sometime even for the GOAT
If we give him credit for the whole game, then we have to say that he did half his job -- the offense looked fantastic against what was supposed to be an incredibly stout defense.

And I can even excuse some of the outstanding catches the Eagles made -- there were a handful of plays that were defended well, but the throw was just too good to defend.

But there were a handful of times tonight when the D needed to make a key play, or just make a tackle, and they failed almost every single time. The Eagles punted ONCE. I'm not sure if it's a scheme issue or that the Pats didn't have the personnel to make the scheme work. Given that they've been able to coach up below-average defenders in the past (Edelman, Troy Brown, Earthwind Moreland, Otis Smith, etc.), I suspect it was a scheme issue. For all the talk of focus, maybe Matty P putting together his Lions coaching staff really did detract from game prep. Who knows.
 

Ralphwiggum

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
Great question. Honestly it looked like the Pats had not prepared for what the Eagles were going to do at all, and then could not adjust or if they did, then Philly changed to something else, so credit Pederson I guess.
 

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Yeah, in a game with a number of baffling calls, the weird hook-and-ladder thing they tried that cost them 10 yards of field position and burned an extra 10-20 seconds off the game clock was one of the most baffling.
I didn't hate it. W
What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
Shut down the tight ends. 67 yards to Ertz and 0 yards to Burton ain't terrible.
 

Super Nomario

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Shut down the tight ends. 67 yards to Ertz and 0 yards to Burton ain't terrible.
67 yards is a 1000-yard pace over a 16-game season. He also converted three third downs, a fourth down, and had a touchdown. If that's what they were trying to shut down, they did a lousy job.

I mean, on a key third down, he caught the game-winning touchdown.
 

dcmissle

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Fuck the coaching staff tonight
They got owned, except for McDaniels, who ultimately figured it out. The offense had a fine game, with few exceptions. Brady was extraordinary; I was really happy for the o-line, obvious huge credit to Scar.
Otherwise, a complete mismatch at the coaching level. That would have been the case even if we had won -- but in that case it would have been masked.
 

Ed Hillel

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
Turns out Girardi nailed it: The Eagles don’t really have a main focus or two on offense, they are diverse and good in every single area, so it doesn’t really make sense to focus on any one thing. It looked to me like they mostly just tried to match up and consistently got beat. The front 7 in particular just played like shit. The lack of pass rush was the biggest issue I think, they barely got any pressures at all.

Conversely, the Pats basically did the same. Brady’s indecision on one play was the difference, and that’s to take nothing away, he was fantastic.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Turns out Girardi nailed it: The Eagles don’t really have a main focus or two on offense, they are diverse and good in every single area, so it doesn’t really make sense to focus on any one thing. It looked to me like they mostly just tried to match up and consistently got beat. The front 7 in particular just played like shit. The lack of pass rush was the biggest issue I think. They barely got any pressures at all.
Would this be the huge issue then? BB couldn’t key in on a strength to stop, so we got roasted?

Philly maybe was just a nightmare matchup then.
 

luckiestman

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They got owned, except for McDaniels, who ultimately figured it out. The offense had a fine game, with few exceptions. Brady was extraordinary; I was really happy for the o-line, obvious huge credit to Scar.
Otherwise, a complete mismatch at the coaching level. That would have been the case even if we had won -- but in that case it would have been masked.

I think a lot of it was personnel and execution. On the other side, Foles was putting the ball in tight spots. Not considering the Butler thing (because I don’t know what the hell happened), I’m not seeing the bad coaching. Missed tackles? The players have to make plays.

People keep saying outcoached but I saw a defense that could not stop the Eagles at all and I thought it was personnel driven. Their oline could block yours, your linebackers are slow and it almost doesn’t matter if your CBs can cover because Foles was almost perfect.

Outmanned more than outcoached, and I think Pats on offense played great and they lost their deep threat early.

Great super bowl as entertainment. I fully expected Pats to win once they scored to start the 3rd. Philly answering the bell each time impressed the hell out of me.

I get why you guys are fired up about Butler but who am I to question B.B’s choices?
 

Bongorific

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67 yards is a 1000-yard pace over a 16-game season. He also converted three third downs, a fourth down, and had a touchdown. If that's what they were trying to shut down, they did a lousy job.

I mean, on a key third down, he caught the game-winning touchdown.
Yeah I don’t disagree. But Ertz has had much better games this year. He’s had over 800 yards in 14 games last 2 years. So it was an average game for him.

And tonight average was the best thing the defense did.
 

lars10

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What would you guys say the defensive gameplan was tonight? I mean, against Jacksonville they struggled against Bortles but at least they shut down Fournette; it was probably a calculated move to ramp up the run at the expense of the pass. But they did nothing well tonight. Who or what were they trying to stop?
The attempt was definitely to keep Foles in the pocket and Ajayi and Blount from getting too many yards... IMO.
 

Reverend

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Yeah I don’t disagree. But Ertz has had much better games this year. He’s had over 800 yards in 14 games last 2 years. So it was an average game for him.

And tonight average was the best thing the defense did.
I don’t know what sort of technological device you are posting from, but it probably has calculator functionality.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I would argue this was the best offensive game we've played in the SB. so it's a real shame everything else was shit. that's what I keep coming back to, but I think I'll be over this loss in a couple days.

some of the "in Bill we trust" shine is definitely off though after this one.
 

twibnotes

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I would argue this was the best offensive game we've played in the SB. so it's a real shame everything else was shit. that's what I keep coming back to, but I think I'll be over this loss in a couple days.

some of the "in Bill we trust" shine is definitely off though after this one.
We just needed the D to be merely bad instead of historically inept (with one of our key guys watching the game)
 

shawnrbu

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One silver lining is no one is going to talk about franchising Jimmy and keeping him on the 2018 roster. No way could they have tied up $50m in QB and bring back that defense.

How does this defense improve? I see no one on the current roster who we can realistically expect to take a significant leap. Getting Hightower back helps, but he is injured often.

Is the outcome different tonight with Chandler Jones? Hope BB can find a pass rusher in the draft.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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Why lump McDaniels in there?
The lack of pass rush was the biggest issue I think, they barely got any pressures at all.
The D line. No sacks, no pressure.

Tom as receiver. Catch that.

Josh in the first half. Too cutesy. Straight up football would have worked better.
These are all related. Not a single holding call all game. Philly had one of the top defenses in the league, with a great line, and they could barely got to Brady. Harrison, just for example, was being held on every snap. McDaniels should have recognized this earlier. In a game with 1 punt, and 1 sack, there were two whoever-the-fuck passes to quarterbacks running routes. WTF?

Embarrassing. A great defense and an average-to-bad defense were giving up points every single possession. Brady was throwing deep balls better than any time in recent memory. McDaniels at least recognized it and they started the second half by throwing to Gronk every play until they scored a TD.

Philly tackling was fantastic, and Pats' was abysmal. They just got fundamentally out-coached and out-played. Easily winnable game, but they were focused on the hard stuff instead of just doing the basic stuff. Only mistake PHI made that I can remember off the top of my head was the Harmon interception, which was as fluky as it gets and could easily have been another 7.

Let your greatest-of-all-time-QB-who-threw-for-500+yards do his thing and tackle the opposing player with the ball instead of 2 or 3 players bouncing off of him first and we'd all be checking the weather for duckboats
 

streeter88

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One silver lining is no one is going to talk about franchising Jimmy and keeping him on the 2018 roster. No way could they have tied up $50m in QB and bring back that defense.

How does this defense improve? I see no one on the current roster who we can realistically expect to take a significant leap. Getting Hightower back helps, but he is injured often.

Is the outcome different tonight with Chandler Jones? Hope BB can find a pass rusher in the draft.
Maybe Logan Ryan might have helped...? Edit: obviously forgetting the $10m cap hit...
 

Ralphwiggum

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I think the only thing you can pin on the offense are the two failed red zone trips early on (and lump in the special teams fiasco and that’s two trips inside the 10 yardline that yielded 3 points).

That sucked, but overall it is hard for me to blame McD or the offense. They pretty much had to be perfect to win, and they came up just short.

Shit happens and sometimes a guy gets a hand on the ball at the exact worse time, and sometimes a fumble bounces right to the other team. When you put your offense in a position where they literally have to score every time they touch the ball you aren’t going to win many games. Frankly they were lucky it came down to the final possession.
 

Bowhemian

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Foles played out of his tits. Actually, most of the Eagles also did.
The Pats defense, however, did not play out of their tits. They sucked.

Curious move about Butler, we will most likely never know what went down. But something went down. He did not impress me this year. He had some nice plays and some nice games this year, but he also had some stinkers. Who knows…
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think the only thing you can pin on the offense are the two failed red zone trips early on (and lump in the special teams fiasco and that’s two trips inside the 10 yardline that yielded 3 points).

That sucked, but overall it is hard for me to blame McD or the offense. They pretty much had to be perfect to win, and they came up just short.

Shit happens and sometimes a guy gets a hand on the ball at the exact worse time, and sometimes a fumble bounces right to the other team. When you put your offense in a position where they literally have to score every time they touch the ball you aren’t going to win many games. Frankly they were lucky it came down to the final possession.
What was absolutely hideous about those drives is that both times they had the chance to get a first down even if they didn't score.

I also hate hate hate that they use White as the goal line back. Lewis isn't the quite receiver out of the backfield that White is, but he more than makes up for that by being more of a dual threat.
 

mauf

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I understand why they had that play on, it was worth a shot. But when the Eagles had it covered Lewis should have just eaten it to save the few yards of field position plus the 4 or 5 seconds that ticked off.
Would love to see the all-22 on that play. If the coverage guy doesn’t get a hand on the carrier, is the left side of the field wide open, or does he get tackled 10 yards upfield?
 

Section15Box113

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What was absolutely hideous about those drives is that both times they had the chance to get a first down even if they didn't score.

I also hate hate hate that they use White as the goal line back. Lewis isn't the quite receiver out of the backfield that White is, but he more than makes up for that by being more of a dual threat.
Better than Bolden in the backfield on the jet sweep / hurdle play. Sure, he’d run for that one TD, but doubt the defense was too worried about a run between the tackles. (I sure wasn’t.)
 

Mystic Merlin

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Better than Bolden in the backfield on the jet sweep / hurdle play. Sure, he’d run for that one TD, but doubt the defense was too worried about a run between the tackles. (I sure wasn’t.)
Which had nothing to do with the outcome of the play.

I have to say I didn't find myself thinking 'if only Lewis had played in more goal line' when mulling over the reasons for this loss. The back usage was fine.
 

Clears Cleaver

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The Pats were working to stop the RPO early and eagles got their backs out in space against linebackers. Everything was outside the hashes. Pats played more nickel in second half and had ends set edge and LBs over tackles more to be able to force Play inside. Eagles countered by running between tackles in sec half a lot more

Eagles just keep attacking same weakness in different ways. Also forced safeties into tough spot and Chung et al were bad, too. Slow. Plus Foles made some really accurate throws

The eagles D was actually a lot worse IMO.
 

Silverdude2167

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The Eagles made a few more plays and that is why they won.

With that said, since when is Illegal Formation a judgment Call? Alshon was 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage...no way that is acceptable the ref should not have allowed him to "check in". The refs were definitely told not to be the story of the game and it resulted in a lot of borderline calls going the Eagles way.
 

jsinger121

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The Eagles made a few more plays and that is why they won.

With that said, since when is Illegal Formation a judgment Call? Alshon was 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage...no way that is acceptable the ref should not have allowed him to "check in". The refs were definitely told not to be the story of the game and it resulted in a lot of borderline calls going the Eagles way.
Except that wasn't a borderline call. That should have been called and it would have been a 4 point play in favor of the Pats as the Eagles almost surely kick a FG there.
 

BaseballJones

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I think the only thing you can pin on the offense are the two failed red zone trips early on (and lump in the special teams fiasco and that’s two trips inside the 10 yardline that yielded 3 points).

That sucked, but overall it is hard for me to blame McD or the offense. They pretty much had to be perfect to win, and they came up just short.

Shit happens and sometimes a guy gets a hand on the ball at the exact worse time, and sometimes a fumble bounces right to the other team. When you put your offense in a position where they literally have to score every time they touch the ball you aren’t going to win many games. Frankly they were lucky it came down to the final possession.
That strip sack....

So Philly hadn't sacked Brady once all game. They didn't have a single tackle-for-loss all game long. They got ONE. And they got it at a HUGE time. But if it was just a regular sack, I still think we're all confident that the Patriots score on that drive. So not only was it a sack, it was a strip sack. But ok, 50/50 that the offense recovers the fumble. No. So not only was it their only sack, and TFL, of the game, it just happened to be a strip sack, AND they happened to recover. Just the worst of all possible outcomes on ONE play.
 

lexrageorge

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Yeah, the Eagles aren't more talented on offense than the Steelers.
I'd say that's debatable. The Eagles outscored the Steelers by 51 points during the regular season. The Steelers have more "name" players, but the Eagles were more balanced.
 

Mystic Merlin

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That strip sack....

So Philly hadn't sacked Brady once all game. They didn't have a single tackle-for-loss all game long. They got ONE. And they got it at a HUGE time. But if it was just a regular sack, I still think we're all confident that the Patriots score on that drive. So not only was it a sack, it was a strip sack. But ok, 50/50 that the offense recovers the fumble. No. So not only was it their only sack, and TFL, of the game, it just happened to be a strip sack, AND they happened to recover. Just the worst of all possible outcomes on ONE play.
Certainly was the perfect play at the perfect time for Philly, but eventually shit like that will happen in these situations. See: Rivera blowing a save in the '01 WS v Arizona.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Certainly was the perfect play at the perfect time for Philly, but eventually shit like that will happen in these situations. See: Rivera blowing a save in the '01 WS v Arizona.
Strange game, stats-wise. Philly had a turnover, so did the Pats. Philly punted once, the Pats zero. Philly's turnover came deep in Pats territory early in the game, Pats turnover came in their own end at the end of the game.

Shit happens.
 

heavyde050

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I am hoping/predicting a defensive upgrade from BB similar to the 2007 offensive upgrade.
I really think (with no key injuries) the Pats are back in the SB next year with a different outcome.
Brady will have JE back to pair with Cooks and Gronk (hopefully he doesn't retire). Hopefully Amendola comes back.
The defense has to get better with the guys returning from injury. Add a solid draft pick and a few free agents and the defense should be a top 20 unit (instead of bottom 5).
Brady with an average defense should end in a championship.
Defensive guys coming back: Hightower, Valentine, Jones, Rivers, etc.
 

BaseballJones

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Certainly was the perfect play at the perfect time for Philly, but eventually shit like that will happen in these situations. See: Rivera blowing a save in the '01 WS v Arizona.
Yep. I had a friend (Jets fan of all things) send me a meme that had Brady see a Lombardi slip off his fingertips on that trick play. I'm like, well, it's hard to catch a Lombardi when you're holding five in your arms.

Your point is well taken. You get here enough times, and sometimes things will go poorly for you, or a bounce will go the other way. The great Yankees lost to the Marlins (!) and the Diamondbacks. They blew a 3-0 lead against the Red Sox.

Even the 49ers...well, they may not have lost a Super Bowl, but they got knocked out of what was the de facto Super Bowl (the NFCCG - at a time when the NFC absolutely DOMINATED the AFC) a bunch of times.

Sucks to lose, but the team once again showed incredible grit. Even in the end, after they turned it over, they completely stoned Philly and forced the field goal and still made a gallant effort to get down the field for one last try. In some ways, this game showed even more why Brady is the GOAT. His defense couldn't get a stop all game, and he had to play a perfect game, and very nearly did.

There is no way that with 2:30 left and the Pats having the ball down 5, that there was any Eagle fan that wasn't crapping their pants. Hoping, PRAYING, for a turnover (which, of course, they got). Because without that turnover, there was no way Brady wasn't taking them down for the winning TD.
 

heavyde050

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Yep. I had a friend (Jets fan of all things) send me a meme that had Brady see a Lombardi slip off his fingertips on that trick play. I'm like, well, it's hard to catch a Lombardi when you're holding five in your arms.

Your point is well taken. You get here enough times, and sometimes things will go poorly for you, or a bounce will go the other way. The great Yankees lost to the Marlins (!) and the Diamondbacks. They blew a 3-0 lead against the Red Sox.

Even the 49ers...well, they may not have lost a Super Bowl, but they got knocked out of what was the de facto Super Bowl (the NFCCG - at a time when the NFC absolutely DOMINATED the AFC) a bunch of times.

Sucks to lose, but the team once again showed incredible grit. Even in the end, after they turned it over, they completely stoned Philly and forced the field goal and still made a gallant effort to get down the field for one last try. In some ways, this game showed even more why Brady is the GOAT. His defense couldn't get a stop all game, and he had to play a perfect game, and very nearly did.

There is no way that with 2:30 left and the Pats having the ball down 5, that there was any Eagle fan that wasn't crapping their pants. Hoping, PRAYING, for a turnover (which, of course, they got). Because without that turnover, there was no way Brady wasn't taking them down for the winning TD.
Very good way to look at it and good summary overall.
The harping on the Brady dropped pass is funny because it didn't change the game much. I mean Brady still got his team the lead in the fourth quarter of a championship game (again).