The Goat Thread: SBLII vs Eagles

[BigSoxFan]

I’m disappointed that we left McCourty on an island against Ertz on that 3rd down TD play, who was clearly the #1 option on that play. That was an incredibly difficult cover with a ton of real estate against a quick and big target.

Also have no idea what Van Noy was doing on that play. He either should have been blitzing to create pressure or he should have dropped back to cover the middle of the field. Instead, he kind of just hesitated forward and put his hands up a few feet behind the line of scrimmage. Everyone on the right was well covered so they really should have forced the FG attempt there.

 

[DJnVa]

We can poo poo it, but teams believe this: https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2018/02/09/eagles-fake-walk-through-before-super-bowl-lii-patriots-spying

The Eagles might’ve staged a fake walk-through before Super Bowl LII in case the Patriots were spying: Philadelphia Eagles’ long snapper Rick Lovato appeared on 620 WDAE in Tampa and said he believes the team purposefully didn’t run “Philly Special” or other plays from their game plan at practice in Minnesota on Saturday, just in case.

Host: “So you guys purposefully did not run [“Philly Special”] in practice in Minnesota, was that for fear that you thought the Patriots might be watching?”

Lovato: “Correct, yeah. I believe our whole walk-through was just a complete fake walk-through. We did it at the stadium. There were certain people walking around. … I believe I overheard someone say a lot of the plays that we were running were plays that weren’t even in the playbook for the Super Bowl.”

 

[Bongorific]

The Patriots were not the better team on Sunday. I’m in the acceptance stage.

But.

The Clement touchdown was not a catch. In a 2017 regular season game that call gets overturned a thousand times out of a thousand.

 

[amlothi]

We can poo poo it, but teams believe this: https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2018/02/09/eagles-fake-walk-through-before-super-bowl-lii-patriots-spying

Maybe if they practiced more, they wouldn't have lined up in an illegal formation on the TD to Foles. I am over the loss, but this still isn't being talked about enough. Imagine if the Pats won after scoring a TD on an illegal play?

 

[JimD]

Greg Bedard's defensive breakdown on the Boston Sports Journal - https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/02/09/bedards-defensive-breakdown-marquis-flowers-role-among-bigger-failures-butler-issue/

The defensive gameplan was just a massive failure on every level, from strategy through to (lack of) execution. I can't remember Belichick being so badly outcoached like this.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Maybe if they practiced more, they wouldn't have lined up in an illegal formation on the TD to Foles. I am over the loss, but this still isn't being talked about enough. Imagine if the Pats won after scoring a TD on an illegal play?

I'm not too upset about it, because this stuff doesn't get called a lot, and he did apparently ask the ref - but I'm absolutely with you that this would be a major issue if you swapped the jerseys.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

I’m disappointed that we left McCourty on an island against Ertz on that 3rd down TD play, who was clearly the #1 option on that play. That was an incredibly difficult cover with a ton of real estate against a quick and big target.

Also have no idea what Van Noy was doing on that play. He either should have been blitzing to create pressure or he should have dropped back to cover the middle of the field. Instead, he kind of just hesitated forward and put his hands up a few feet behind the line of scrimmage. Everyone on the right was well covered so they really should have forced the FG attempt there.

Van Noy seemed to do a lot of that during the game

 

[Bellhorn]

Greg Bedard's defensive breakdown on the Boston Sports Journal - https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/02/09/bedards-defensive-breakdown-marquis-flowers-role-among-bigger-failures-butler-issue/

The defensive gameplan was just a massive failure on every level, from strategy through to (lack of) execution. I can't remember Belichick being so badly outcoached like this.

Bedard on Jordan Richards: "He just shouldn't ever be on the field on defense". Glad to see that that take was not just fanboy overreaction on my part.

 

[JimD]

The Patriots were not the better team on Sunday. I’m in the acceptance stage.

But.

The Clement touchdown was not a catch. In a 2017 regular season game that call gets overturned a thousand times out of a thousand.

Joe Posnanski and Mike Schur talked about this on their podcast - they speculated that everyone at the NFL replay office knew it wasn't a catch according to the rules, but did not want to reignite the 'What is a catch in the NFL?' bonfire all over again by overrturning this literally in front of the entire world and risking that it could affect the final outcome of the game. I think it didn't matter that the Patriots would be the beneficiary of an overruled play, although that itself would have given much more oxygen to the fire had New England ultimately prevailed in the game.

 

[Saints Rest]

That was basically the first general comment I made about D early on, even before the Butler issue was reported. I said "I really hope we don't see Jordan Ricahrds on the field. Whenever we do, bad things happen."

 

[Saints Rest]

Joe Posnanski and Mike Schur talked about this on their podcast - they speculated that everyone at the NFL replay office knew it wasn't a catch according to the rules, but did not want to reignite the 'What is a catch in the NFL?' bonfire all over again by overrturning this literally in front of the entire world and risking that it could affect the final outcome of the game. I think it didn't matter that the Patriots would be the beneficiary of an overruled play, although that itself would have given much more oxygen to the fire had New England ultimately prevailed in the game.

And of course, Herr Goodell had made it known a few days earlier how he wants to redo that rule. Just by the way.

 

[Reverend]

Maybe if they practiced more, they wouldn't have lined up in an illegal formation on the TD to Foles. I am over the loss, but this still isn't being talked about enough. Imagine if the Pats won after scoring a TD on an illegal play?

It’s not being talked about much because @CFB_Rules explained the nuts and bolts of lining up and how the receiver checks with the officials and he made a compelling case that there was nothing to see there—it was convincing to myself anyway.

 

[Super Nomario]

The Clement touchdown was not a catch. In a 2017 regular season game that call gets overturned a thousand times out of a thousand.

I disagree. We've seen plays where the receiver adjusts the ball in midair without it being considered loss of possession. The ridiculous Martavis Bryant flip catch from a couple years ago is a good example - that was probably less of a catch than Clement's.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000620155/Can-t-Miss-Play-Bryant-goes-into-flip-mode

Brandin Cooks' game-winning TD against Houston is another example of the ball moving a little and the call standing.

 

[lexrageorge]

To me it was one of those plays where there was no need to overturn the call on the field on the Clement catch. He caught the ball, never really bobbled it. It slid down to his arms, but he quickly regained it anyway. Based on Mike Perreria's comments after the Steelers game, he would also prefer to let the call on the field stand rather than get "hypertechnical" on replay on whether the ball slipped out the players hands enough to call it a bobble.

Had they ruled incomplete on the field, I also would have been OK with the call standing. Replay should fix egregious errors made by the officials. That TD call was nowhere near egregious.

I agree that consistency has been issue this season when it comes to replay. And, had it been Gronk making that same play, we would have heard about it nonstop until the World Series.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Van Noy seemed to do a lot of that during the game

Van Noy was not the same guy this year after returning from his injury.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Another film review of the Pats D by Evan Lazar over at Pats Pulpit

So why does New England have such issues stopping opponents on the ground out of 11-personnel?

Well, the main reason is a lack of talent at linebacker, specifically linebackers that can both stop the run and play in coverage. That forces them to play far too often with just one inside linebacker in the middle of the field and puts a heavy burden on the defensive line to stop the run. Against a good offensive line like that Eagles, that’s a matchup you can’t expect to win consistently.

In particular, their lack of coverage linebackers is a major problem. It forces them to put defensive backs in spots where linebackers typically would be too often and prevents them from playing a high-volume of snaps with two inside linebackers on the field.

Their current linebackers also aren’t good at diagnosing plays on either RPO’s or straight play-action, as you saw with Elandon Roberts, and opponents will continue to exploit that weakness.

The Eagles’ flexibility out of 11-personnel kept the Patriots defense on their heels, and never allowed them to anticipate either run or pass.

The Patriots defensive philosophy has always been to take away what the opposition does best, but on Sunday night, the Eagles were able to do whatever they wanted.

 

[DJnVa]

Greg Bedard's defensive breakdown on the Boston Sports Journal - https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/02/09/bedards-defensive-breakdown-marquis-flowers-role-among-bigger-failures-butler-issue/

The defensive gameplan was just a massive failure on every level, from strategy through to (lack of) execution. I can't remember Belichick being so badly outcoached like this.

What's weird is that the game plan was to force Philly into 3rd downs where they'd have to throw. So, to that part, it worked. We just couldn't get off the field on third down.

 

[MannyRam]

What's more troubling to me on the Clement TD is - what was McCourty trying to do there? He seems to be running in line with Clement, and never makes a play on the ball. He doesn't seem to be aware that the ball is even coming until it's dropped in Clement's bread basket.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

What's more troubling to me on the Clement TD is - what was McCourty trying to do there? He seems to be running in line with Clement, and never makes a play on the ball. He doesn't seem to be aware that the ball is even coming until it's dropped in Clement's bread basket.

Caught watching Ertz and was too late to help with Clement

 

[Harry Hooper]

I disagree. We've seen plays where the receiver adjusts the ball in midair without it being considered loss of possession. The ridiculous Martavis Bryant flip catch from a couple years ago is a good example - that was probably less of a catch than Clement's.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000620155/Can-t-Miss-Play-Bryant-goes-into-flip-mode

Brandin Cooks' game-winning TD against Houston is another example of the ball moving a little and the call standing.

Bryant pins the ball to his leg {and no subsequent bobble} with his right foot down in bounds and then gets his left foot down in bounds. That's 2 feet down in bounds with possession = a catch.

The Cooks play had nothing to do with getting 2 feet down in bounds. That was a "survive the ground" call, which is another category.

 

[Super Nomario]

What's weird is that the game plan was to force Philly into 3rd downs where they'd have to throw. So, to that part, it worked. We just couldn't get off the field on third down.

I agree. I think what happened it, Pederson was one step ahead and anticipated the Patriots doing this, so he had a ton of stuff dialed up on third down. They had every blitz and game the Patriots ran accounted for, and they had a whole bevy of different man beaters plus some other funky stuff designed to beat the Pats D on third down. They were more situationally prepared.

What's more troubling to me on the Clement TD is - what was McCourty trying to do there? He seems to be running in line with Clement, and never makes a play on the ball. He doesn't seem to be aware that the ball is even coming until it's dropped in Clement's bread basket.

Caught watching Ertz and was too late to help with Clement

I think this was by design - McCourty was in a bracket on Ertz and then peels off when Ertz breaks inside and he sees Clement running. Harmon is the deep safety on the play.

Bryant pins the ball to his leg {and no subsequent bobble} with his right foot down in bounds and then gets his left foot down in bounds. That's 2 feet down in bounds with possession = a catch.

He's kind of in the process of pinning the ball to his leg while his right foot is down; by the time he finishes adjusting the foot is up (and never comes down in bounds again). I think the Clement play is pretty analogous - Clement catches it initially but his positioning is not ideal and he continues adjusting the ball's position through getting the second foot down. It didn't look to me like he lost control at any point, which is the standard.

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

The Cooks play had nothing to do with getting 2 feet down in bounds. That was a "survive the ground" call, which is another category.

That's fair. It's another example of a gray area in the catch rule, but it's not really the same thing.

 

[MannyRam]

Caught watching Ertz and was too late to help with Clement

McCourty really came up small - between leaving Flowers to dry on the Clement TD and tripping up on his own feet for the game winning TD to Ertz. Huge misplays from one of the actual few good defenders on this D.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Re: Bedard and Flowers.That’s the problem when none of your linebackers are athletic enough to cover RBs well, right? They can’t play 5 LBs/DEs/DTs against 11’s. Don’t they always essentially have to have at least two linebackers on the feild almost all the time? Well if that’s not the case just ignore this. But if it is the case then what was Belichick supposed to do about it given the people on his roster? If you have a QB who won’t progress to his 3rd/4th option maybe that works but if he isn’t pressured, is patient, and goes through his progressions I would assume if you simulated that this defense no matter who was on the field that night against the Eagles would get lit up.

 

[BigSoxFan]

McCourty really came up small - between leaving Flowers to dry on the Clement TD and tripping up on his own feet for the game winning TD to Ertz. Huge misplays from one of the actual few good defenders on this D.

In fairness to McCourty, almost every safety in the league gets toasted by Ertz there. He is such a tough cover and had a ton of real estate to work with. As soon as Clement drew Harmon over, everyone and their mother knew that the play was going to Ertz, similar to when Gronk splits out wide. And then Van Noy danced around the line of scrimmage doing nothing. Just a great call by Philly and a horrible job by the Pats.

With that said, just wasn’t a strong game for McCourty and we needed him to play like he did against Jax to have a chance.

 

[Hoya81]

In fairness to McCourty, almost every safety in the league gets toasted by Ertz there. He is such a tough cover and had a ton of real estate to work with. As soon as Clement drew Harmon over, everyone and their mother knew that the play was going to Ertz, similar to when Gronk splits out wide. And then Van Noy danced around the line of scrimmage doing nothing. Just a great call by Philly and a horrible job by the Pats.

With that said, just wasn’t a strong game for McCourty and we needed him to play like he did against Jax to have a chance.

McCourty may also have been hurt at some point. He was limping in the locker room when they got back to Foxboro.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Re: Bedard and Flowers.That’s the problem when none of your linebackers are athletic enough to cover RBs well, right? They can’t play 5 LBs/DEs/DTs against 11’s. Don’t they always essentially have to have at least two linebackers on the feild almost all the time? Well if that’s not the case just ignore this. But if it is the case then what was Belichick supposed to do about it given the people on his roster? If you have a QB who won’t progress to his 3rd/4th option maybe that works but if he isn’t pressured, is patient, and goes through his progressions I would assume if you simulated that this defense no matter who was on the field that night against the Eagles would get lit up.

I think part of Bedard's point was, don't have him pass rushing 1-on-1 against a tackle on half od his snaps.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I think part of Bedard's point was, don't have him pass rushing 1-on-1 against a tackle on half od his snaps.

Ah, it was behind a pay wall and it started out talking about him in coverage and his lack of it. At this point I am passed it. Butler didn’t play. There might have been a disciplinary reason. The defense played like shit and coaching had a lot to do with that. When a #2 CB is benched in a Super Bowl questions are inevitable. Speculation is inevitable. But until there is actual clarity and transparency (don’t hold your breath) it’s a waste of time (Butler rumors about what he did I mean - we’ve heard all sorts of doozies). Belichick is a rational and calculating person but if this were Texas Hold’Em on ESPN he’d be the asshole who never slides his cards over the camera.

 

[moretsyndrome]

Re: Bedard and Flowers.That’s the problem when none of your linebackers are athletic enough to cover RBs well, right? They can’t play 5 LBs/DEs/DTs against 11’s. Don’t they always essentially have to have at least two linebackers on the feild almost all the time? Well if that’s not the case just ignore this. But if it is the case then what was Belichick supposed to do about it given the people on his roster? If you have a QB who won’t progress to his 3rd/4th option maybe that works but if he isn’t pressured, is patient, and goes through his progressions I would assume if you simulated that this defense no matter who was on the field that night against the Eagles would get lit up.

The defense sucks. From both a personnel and game-planning perspective, the defense was just very simply lacking what it would have taken to win this game.

This should be obvious. It’s staggering that the GOAT has been handicapped with mediocre to horrible defenses ever since the Parcells core started aging and/or suffering strokes and has somehow managed to consistently overcome it, often almost single-handedly.

What’s more staggering is that there’s any debate to be had over who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

The longer this goes on, it gets plainer and plainer that the credit goes to Brady. All the credit in the world to Belichick for having the balls to keep him in with Bledsoe healthy, but (hot-take alert) they never win a fucking thing w/o Brady. Brady still wins with random coach X, unless it's Ray Handley or something, but Belichick isn't winning dick with random QB X.

Too many stupid decisions, both in-game and as GM, for this genius crap to hold water. The defense is so fucking bad that Brady has to keep coming back from double-digit deficits (which almost NEVER happens, but Brady pulled it off 4 times in a row). You keep coming back from double-digit deficits and winning playoff games? That's on the QB, not the defensive genius coach. The fact that your aging QB couldn't pull it off a fifth time? That's on the fucking miserable prick of a coach and his horrific planning for this game.

Belichick is Lennon, older, tougher, less talented and happy to be known as the leader. Brady is McCartney. He’s the irreplaceable supernatural talent that made all the difference and made it happen.


It’s been a long week.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Belichick is Lennon, older, tougher, less talented and happy to be known as the leader. Brady is McCartney. He’s the irreplaceable supernatural talent that made all the difference and made it happen.

I'm just going to note that not eveyone would buy into your Lennon v McCartney analysis and leave it at that.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

The defense sucks. From both a personnel and game-planning perspective, the defense was just very simply lacking what it would have taken to win this game.

This should be obvious. It’s staggering that the GOAT has been handicapped with mediocre to horrible defenses ever since the Parcells core started aging and/or suffering strokes and has somehow managed to consistently overcome it, often almost single-handedly.

What’s more staggering is that there’s any debate to be had over who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

The longer this goes on, it gets plainer and plainer that the credit goes to Brady. All the credit in the world to Belichick for having the balls to keep him in with Bledsoe healthy, but (hot-take alert) they never win a fucking thing w/o Brady. Brady still wins with random coach X, unless it's Ray Handley or something, but Belichick isn't winning dick with random QB X.

Too many stupid decisions, both in-game and as GM, for this genius crap to hold water. The defense is so fucking bad that Brady has to keep coming back from double-digit deficits (which almost NEVER happens, but Brady pulled it off 4 times in a row). You keep coming back from double-digit deficits and winning playoff games? That's on the QB, not the defensive genius coach. The fact that your aging QB couldn't pull it off a fifth time? That's on the fucking miserable prick of a coach and his horrific planning for this game.

Belichick is Lennon, older, tougher, less talented and happy to be known as the leader. Brady is McCartney. He’s the irreplaceable supernatural talent that made all the difference and made it happen.


It’s been a long week.

617-931-0937

 

[DegenerateSoxFan]

What’s more staggering is that there’s any debate to be had over who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

For a long time, I gave Brady and Belichick equal credit, but I've been evolving toward the viewpoint that Brady deserves more credit, and after last week's defensive debacle, I think I've reached the point where I'd definitely say it's more Brady than Belichick. All I know is that if they'd pulled it off on the drive Brady got strip-sacked on or gotten a miracle jump ball on the last gasp throw, I'd credit Brady all the way. (I'm not pissed at Mason. The ref certainly swallowed their whistles, but I do watch line-play and IMHO this group played well enough for the team to win comfortably if they field even a mediocre to average defense). Maybe it belongs in another thread, but if it was for purely "football" reasons, benching Butler - and not throwing him in there in the second half when nothing was working - was every bit as dumb as going for it on 4th and 13 instead letting an excellent kicker try a 47-yarder in a freaking dome. If nothing else, the quotes from the Eagles players about Butler not being in there were damning. On topic, if he's not the goat of this debacle, the only other possibility is to award it to the entire defense. And if that's the case, then that's on the coach. I'd still rather have him than any other coach, but I'm at the point where I say Brady deserves more credit than Belichick.* How much more, I'm not sure, probably not nearly as much you might based on the rest of your post. But this game definitely moved the needle in that direction for me.

Edit: for clarity.

Additional edit: eh?

* I don’t think that’s any kind of insult to Belichick in the long term scheme of things. I still love the guy and his body of work merits inclusion in the argument for best coach. And it’s Brady who I challenge anyone to make the argument that he isn’t the undisputed GOAT. He played out of his freaking mind and was basically Michael Jordan out there, even if he didn’t actually get number six. Even the best f:;$ it up the occasional Sunday, this one one hurts because there’s a not-insignificant chance that we might have had our last “special” Super Bowl party for a while. (Damn, we’re spoiled!)

 

[lambeau]

Bedard: Asking M Flowers to pass rush nine times on 3rd down "among bigger failures than Butler issue."

@MFlowers59: So you got all the answers? More than Coach Belichick that has been to more SuperBowls than you have been with women!

Don't blame coaches! Blame me, they put me in a spot to succeed and I didn't execute my assignments well enough to win!!!

 

[Leather]

2008: 8th / 10th
2009: 5th / 11th
2010: 5th / 25th
2011: 15th / 31st
2012: 9th / 25th
2013: 10th / 26th
2014: 8th / 13th
2015: 10th / 9th
2016: 1st / 8th
2017: 5th / 29th

Scoring / yardage ranks for New England since 2007 (which is a stretch to still call the “Parcells Core”).

For aboht half of that time period, they have had a league average defense. In 2016, it was a good defense. Saying they haven’t put together a good defense for Brady isn’t exactly true. The sad fact is that the last two SB losses have happened to feature teams with bad defenses.

 

[Spelunker]

Bedard: Asking M Flowers to pass rush nine times on 3rd down "among bigger failures than Butler issue."

@MFlowers59: So you got all the answers? More than Coach Belichick that has been to more SuperBowls than you have been with women!

Don't blame coaches! Blame me, they put me in a spot to succeed and I didn't execute my assignments well enough to win!!!

They hate their coach!

 

[brandonchristensen]

They hate their coach!

And it’s quality, not quantity.

 

[Van Everyman]

Sure is gonna be great around here when Butler re-signs next year w the Pats.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Not a chance.