The greatest two-way player ever?

[cahlton]

Until I stumbled onto his page at baseball-reference, I'd never heard of Bullet Rogan, a Negro League superstar and Hall of Famer, and I wondered how many people here are familiar with his fairly mind-blowing career. From his HOF plaque (I love the quote from Rogan's son):

Many credit Rogan with more wins than any other pitcher in the history of the Negro National League. He went 119-50 in his pitching career, completing 128 of the 153 games that he started while using his repertoire of curveballs, spitballs, palm balls, forkballs and fastballs to strike out 882 batters.

Splitting his time between the mound and the outfield, Rogan compiled a career batting average of .338 to go with a .515 slugging percentage and a .905 OPS. He hit 45 home runs, stole 99 bases and scored 361 runs. Rogan also notched 199 RBI and led the Negro National League with 13 homers in 1922.

Rogan helped the Monarchs win three straight pennants from 1923-1925, and a Negro League World Series championship in 1924. During the championship season, Rogan hit .392 and had an 18-6 record on the mound. In the first Negro Leagues World Series, he led his team with 13 hits and won two games for Kansas City as the Monarchs took down the Hilldale Daisies.

While Rogan’s pitching was often compared to that of Satchel Paige, his son Wilber pointed out that there was at least one difference.:“I do know that Satchel needed a designated hitter when he was on the mound,” the younger Rogan said of his father. “When dad was on the mound, he was batting cleanup.”

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/roganbu99.shtml

Edit: typo

 

[SoxJox]

I think you'd be hard pressed to match the Babe, who played two ways for the first 8 years of his career. Everyone knows about his prowess as a hitter, but as a pitcher over 10 seasons (1914-1921, 1930, and 1933) he compiled:

• Games Started: 163
• Games Completed: 107 (35 of 40 games in 1917)
• Games Finished / Closed: 17
• ERA: 2.28 (1.75 in 1916)

Heck, in 40 games in 1920 he did not allow a HR.

 

[Zedia]

The Negro Leagues used the DH?

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

The Negro Leagues used the DH?

I think it was a reference to Satch's lifetime BA of .198 and that he "needed" one, not that he had one

 

[Zedia]

I think it was a reference to Satch's lifetime BA of .198 and that he "needed" one, not that he had one

D’oh, yeah, I was reading it literally. Hadn’t had coffee yet.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

D’oh, yeah, I was reading it literally. Hadn’t had coffee yet.

I've had coffee. Took me 2 reads. Then a third to confirm when you mentioned it, too

 

[EdRalphRomero]

I think you'd be hard pressed to match the Babe, who played two ways for the first 8 years of his career. Everyone knows about his prowess as a hitter, but as a pitcher over 10 seasons (1914-1921, 1930, and 1933) he compiled:

• Games Started: 163
• Games Completed: 107 (35 of 40 games in 1917)
• Games Finished / Closed: 17
• ERA: 2.28 (1.75 in 1916)

Heck, in 40 games in 1920 he did not allow a HR.

Of course both Babe and Bullet have the same problem in dubbing them the "greatest" (although from completely different angles) in that they both competed in segregated leagues and therefore against diluted talent pools. Babe was excellent against a pool of white guys. What he would have done against an integrated league that included Latin, Asian, and black ballplayers is a whole different (and fairly unanswerable question). I tend to look at those pre-integration players with a giant grain of salt. Consider the size of the talent pool then vs. the talent pool now. My opinion is that Ohtani, for instance, would eat Babe's (copious) lunch as both a pitcher and a hitter.

edit: Even leaving aside the nature of accomplishments in a segregated and non-global league in 1925 at the midpoint of Babe's career the US had 116 million people. Today it has 328 million. So 2.5 times the talent pool to compete against.

 

[snowmanny]

The segregation part is it’s own evil, but in general this is similar to the problems future humans are going to have trying to figure out how Mike Trout would have fared against the super athletes of 2095. He’d probably be a 4A player getting his lunch eaten by big leaguers.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Of course both Babe and Bullet have the same problem in dubbing them the "greatest" (although from completely different angles) in that they both competed in segregated leagues and therefore against diluted talent pools. Babe was excellent against a pool of white guys. What he would have done against an integrated league that included Latin, Asian, and black ballplayers is a whole different (and fairly unanswerable question). I tend to look at those pre-integration players with a giant grain of salt. Consider the size of the talent pool then vs. the talent pool now. My opinion is that Ohtani, for instance, would eat Babe's (copious) lunch as both a pitcher and a hitter.

edit: Even leaving aside the nature of accomplishments in a segregated and non-global league in 1925 at the midpoint of Babe's career the US had 116 million people. Today it has 328 million. So 2.5 times the talent pool to compete against.

Couldn't disagree with this more strongly. Babe Ruth is by far the most dominant player versus the competition in baseball history, probably in US professional sports altogether. Baseball's segregation was stupid and evil, but it didn't exclude a majority of all people who would have been major leaguers (probably not even close) during his career. Yeah, his numbers would have been less good if he had to bat against Bullet Rogan and the like instead of replacement level white guys, but he'd still tower above the rest of the league like nobody before or since, unless you think segregation excluded the top 50 or 100 players or something like that.

And I know we've been down this road before, but imagine what Ruth would have done if his dietary regime wasn't three hot dogs and a pitcher of beer.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Will the Mets unleash deGrom?

 

[EdRalphRomero]

Couldn't disagree with this more strongly. Babe Ruth is by far the most dominant player versus the competition in baseball history, probably in US professional sports altogether. Baseball's segregation was stupid and evil, but it didn't exclude a majority of all people who would have been major leaguers (probably not even close) during his career. Yeah, his numbers would have been less good if he had to bat against Bullet Rogan and the like instead of replacement level white guys, but he'd still tower above the rest of the league like nobody before or since, unless you think segregation excluded the top 50 or 100 players or something like that.

And I know we've been down this road before, but imagine what Ruth would have done if his dietary regime wasn't three hot dogs and a pitcher of beer.

I’ll look to do more math later (need to account for fewer teams which would be to George’s credit) but just using the racial make up of today’s league you would take out 42.5% of the players and replace them with minor league caliber white guys.

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

I’ll look to do more math later (need to account for fewer teams which would be to George’s credit) but just using the racial make up of today’s league you would take out 42.5% of the players and replace them with minor league caliber white guys.

With only 16 teams during Ruth's time, you would take away 46.6% of today's players. For some years pre-1920 there were as few as 21 players on a team.

 

[brs3]

Couldn't disagree with this more strongly. Babe Ruth is by far the most dominant player versus the competition in baseball history, probably in US professional sports altogether. Baseball's segregation was stupid and evil, but it didn't exclude a majority of all people who would have been major leaguers (probably not even close) during his career. Yeah, his numbers would have been less good if he had to bat against Bullet Rogan and the like instead of replacement level white guys, but he'd still tower above the rest of the league like nobody before or since, unless you think segregation excluded the top 50 or 100 players or something like that.

And I know we've been down this road before, but imagine what Ruth would have done if his dietary regime wasn't three hot dogs and a pitcher of beer.

I'd love to hear more about this, with some evidence to back it up, considering black players were banned from professional baseball as far back as 1867 and more formally beginning in 1887. Segregation, historically, absolutely excluded what could've been dozens of players that would've been in the top 50 or top 100. The official beginning of the Negro Leagues in 1920 shows that their skill and talent was worthy of acknowledgment. Imagine how good those players would've been if they didn't have to form their own league and had the same kind of access as white players.

It's exciting to think if Babe Ruth would've dominated an integrated game. Maybe he would've. Maybe he wouldn't have. It's not really as clear cut as you suggest.

 

[Pegleg]

brs3 and others: My father used to tell me about the Negro teams who played against major leagues in the offseason. Those barnstorming MLB players often said thier competition was equal to any MLB players. They were both all-star caliber.

 

[jon abbey]

As a fan, I personally ignore everything pre-integration and always have. Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Honus Wagner, etc.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

As a fan, I personally ignore everything pre-integration and always have. Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Honus Wagner, etc.

Josh Gibson? Oscar Charleston?

 

[jon abbey]

Josh Gibson? Oscar Charleston?

Yep, same thing. It’s just a personal thing, I just don’t take any stats from then seriously. It’s not an opinion that merits debate or holds up to analysis.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

Got it - and that’s your prerogative.

 

[terrynever]

My dad grew up in Homestead, Pa. in the 1920s and 1930s. That’s five miles from Pittsburgh. If he had 50 cents, Dad could go see the Pirates but the Grays and Crawfords games were cheaper tickets and easier to attend. He often spoke of the Waner brothers, Pie Traynor, Arky Vaughn and other Pirates. But he spoke of Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige with a quiet awe. Dad never spoke of segregated leagues because that was the world he lived in. I think he just felt lucky to see the Negro League stars so close to home. He loved the sport.
The playwright, August Wilson, mined some of this same material in Fences and a few other works.