The Gronk Injury Thread: Crisis Avoided (Bone Bruise - Week to Week)
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Someone noted up thread that Brady called the Gronk hit clean. Nink said during an interview that aired on NESN's Sports Desk show this morning hat he doesn't tackle at the knees (or something close along those lines).
It's hard for me to get too riled up about a legal hit. But Nink is no yahoo and hearing him say that does give me some pause.
PS: Interesting article by Barnwell (warning, ESPN content) here all around -- http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14258239/with-rob-gronkowski-back-healthy-new-england-position-super-bowl-run-nfl -- and it contains some discussion on the hit:
"On the next play, Stewart dropped Gronkowski on an incomplete pass, ending his night. Was it a dirty play? Both sides can make their case, although it wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Von Miller's NFL Blitz-esque pile-on sack of Brady earlier in the game. Stewart launched himself at Gronkowski's legs in a moment where Gronk wasn't going to be able to protect himself from the blow, in much the same way that Gronkowski wasn't able to shield himself from T.J. Ward when the then-Browns safety ended his 2013 season with a torn ACL.
At the same time, though, Stewart really didn't have much of a choice. Everybody tries to go low on Gronkowski because there's no other way to tackle him. (It's telling that Brady himself said that the rules force players to go low when asked about the injury after the game.) Stewart wasn't at an angle where it would have made sense to continue running before trying to engage Gronkowski further downfield. His dive was in time with where it looked like the ball was going to be if Gronkowski caught it, which would have given Stewart a chance to knock the pass out by putting his helmet on the ball. In trying to adjust for the pass, Gronkowski also was stretched at a weird, uncommon angle -- it would have been impossible for Stewart to adjust in real time to try to hit Gronkowski in the knee, even if he were so inclined. Dangerous? Absolutely. Dirty? If Brady can't make the case, I certainly won't."
Note: I don't see the quote bubble above and don't know how to put text in a bubble without that.
It's hard for me to get too riled up about a legal hit. But Nink is no yahoo and hearing him say that does give me some pause.
PS: Interesting article by Barnwell (warning, ESPN content) here all around -- http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14258239/with-rob-gronkowski-back-healthy-new-england-position-super-bowl-run-nfl -- and it contains some discussion on the hit:
"On the next play, Stewart dropped Gronkowski on an incomplete pass, ending his night. Was it a dirty play? Both sides can make their case, although it wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Von Miller's NFL Blitz-esque pile-on sack of Brady earlier in the game. Stewart launched himself at Gronkowski's legs in a moment where Gronk wasn't going to be able to protect himself from the blow, in much the same way that Gronkowski wasn't able to shield himself from T.J. Ward when the then-Browns safety ended his 2013 season with a torn ACL.
At the same time, though, Stewart really didn't have much of a choice. Everybody tries to go low on Gronkowski because there's no other way to tackle him. (It's telling that Brady himself said that the rules force players to go low when asked about the injury after the game.) Stewart wasn't at an angle where it would have made sense to continue running before trying to engage Gronkowski further downfield. His dive was in time with where it looked like the ball was going to be if Gronkowski caught it, which would have given Stewart a chance to knock the pass out by putting his helmet on the ball. In trying to adjust for the pass, Gronkowski also was stretched at a weird, uncommon angle -- it would have been impossible for Stewart to adjust in real time to try to hit Gronkowski in the knee, even if he were so inclined. Dangerous? Absolutely. Dirty? If Brady can't make the case, I certainly won't."
Note: I don't see the quote bubble above and don't know how to put text in a bubble without that.
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I don't quite understand the line of reasoning that says that because someone is physically overmatched they should be allowed to tackle/hit in a way that puts someone else's safety and career at risk. Gronk is a beast; by definition he's a mismatch for whoever's defending him. Mismatches are an integral part of the game. Why should that give defenders license to injure?
The post to which I replied stated that Nink could "afford" to hit high because he's bigger than a d-back, which to me implied that d-backs can't be expected to tackle high due to the size mis-match. I'm also thinking of quotes I've seen from analysts over the last couple days excusing the hit by saying, "Gronk's too big to tackle high - your only hope is to go for his legs." In the end I agree with those who say it wasn't a dirty play, especially given the trajectory of the throw and the way that Gronk had to turn to try to catch it.
One thing not mentioned much is the Kubiak-special cut block by TE Virgil Green on Hightower that damaged his knee. Those hits are just as bad as the DB missile shots. A guy is moving down the line after a ball carrier with his head up and the blocker drops low an launches at his knees.
That crap has been going on in Denver for generations. At least since Schlereth.
Whenever the Broncos came to Baltimore, that crap got sorted out in the first few possessions, or they'd go home in body bags. Siragusa, Lewis, et al would not stand for it.
Whenever the Broncos came to Baltimore, that crap got sorted out in the first few possessions, or they'd go home in body bags. Siragusa, Lewis, et al would not stand for it.
Mike Shanahan brought it over to Denver from San Francisco in the early 1990s. Popularizing the cut block is one of Bill Walsh's darker legacies.
Yep, you should hear Schlereth talk about it. He comes close to laughing whenever he talks about opposing players being so concerned about their knees that they changed their style of play. He talks about how they hated playing Denver. He comes close to admitting that due to his size he never would have lasted in the league without this technique.
The way I understand, there are basically two styles of taking someone down: a tackle or a hit.
With a tackle, there is much surer probability of initiating contact, but have to be at least as physically big / strong as the target to wrap him up and take him down - obviously, we've seen Gronk carry little DBs 10 yards downfield or completely shed them when they try to do this.
Therefore, I do buy the argument that the DBs and smaller LBs have to hit Gronk to get the best shot of taking him down. With a hit, the defensive player is basically launching himself airborne, so there is much less accuracy and certainty of contacting the offensive player and more unpredictability on whether the hit will almost harmlessly bounce off him or devastate him.
I also don't really consider the hit dirty because everybody involved was moving super fast, Gronk was leaping at a weird angle. I don't think the defensive player could have knowingly launched himself with accuracy directly at the knee cap.
I think the bigger picture argument boils down to what are legitimate non-dirty targets to hit the player. Eventually, the NFL will have a strike zone from from about 3 inches above the knee cap up to just below the neck that will be considered legitimate targets for a hit. We're already most of the way there.
With a tackle, there is much surer probability of initiating contact, but have to be at least as physically big / strong as the target to wrap him up and take him down - obviously, we've seen Gronk carry little DBs 10 yards downfield or completely shed them when they try to do this.
Therefore, I do buy the argument that the DBs and smaller LBs have to hit Gronk to get the best shot of taking him down. With a hit, the defensive player is basically launching himself airborne, so there is much less accuracy and certainty of contacting the offensive player and more unpredictability on whether the hit will almost harmlessly bounce off him or devastate him.
I also don't really consider the hit dirty because everybody involved was moving super fast, Gronk was leaping at a weird angle. I don't think the defensive player could have knowingly launched himself with accuracy directly at the knee cap.
I think the bigger picture argument boils down to what are legitimate non-dirty targets to hit the player. Eventually, the NFL will have a strike zone from from about 3 inches above the knee cap up to just below the neck that will be considered legitimate targets for a hit. We're already most of the way there.
Got a bone bruise on my lateral femoral condyle a few years back. Hurt like hell. I'm a distance runner and couldn't run or walk. Got checked out by same guys that deal with the Colts in Indianapolis. They put a 1/4 inch medial wedge in the heel of my shoe and BAM. Pain free. Are we assuming this is the injury and the treatment? And yes the bone bruise was on an MRI over a year later.
Same spectrum of injury, not the same treatment. Would that it were that easy...
Who did you see in Indy?
My gut is telling me that we're not seeing Gronk until the playoffs, maybe week 16 or 17 if they're fighting for a bye.
Interesting that it's a joint release between team and family. My guess is team (BB) wanted nothing to do with this but family wanted info out and forced them into it. Why the family wanted this, I do not know.
I half suspect this is to get the official message out, with both parties on point, so to avoid any mis-speaking or bullshit about what his injury is, and if the Patriots are fucking with injury reports when they list him/don't list him after he participates in practice, or doesn't, or whatever, or if one of his brothers says one thing but the team says another, etc...
Kind of like: "Ok, we know this is a big story, we know we're both (family and team) going to get bombarded with questions, so here's our message: it's touch and go and nobody really knows when he'll be back. Nobody's trying to hide anything."
Curran had a piece about this today, as he suspected that Gronk's people are the sources of the leaks about Gronk's health prior to this statement. The whole piece is worth a read, but here's one section:
Weren't there some issues regarding the recovery of his forearm breaks a few years ago? I seem to recall there being some family v team issues during the problems he had infections and subsequent surgeries on that. Can't recall specifically but I thought there was some friction.
The leaking info to the press, the attempts to control when Gronk could play when coming back from his surgeries.
A player's family should never be in the news. It is just annoying, even if they are just trying to look out for Gronk.
Gronk now has a video up saying that he's week-to-week and he'll be back when he's "100 percent." I don't think we'll see him before the playoffs. This is really weird when compared to how every other injury situation is handled by the Pats.
Care to expand on why you feel there is a chance? Once you do, can you expand on why or how you feel BB would?
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Please tell us why BB would trade the biggest mismatch in the NFL and best tight end in the game in the prime of his career on a very team friendly contract.
It's about risk and return. If the risk is not only injury, but also bubble wrap Gronk for significant portion of the regular reason when he is 90% healthy, then if the return is high enough... It's a business. I have the impression that BB treats everyone as part of the business, regardless of popularity and/or sentimentality. Everything in this business is about risk and return.
Yeah, definitely agree. This has agent / family written all over it. It's different, but at the end of the day though, we receive hall of fame level production from this guy. I imagine Belichick gladly puts up with some goofy branding/public relations bullshit for the performance on the field.
For just about any other player (except Brady)? Probably not.
Definitely different than we have seen before, but considering the statement was put out jointly by team gronk and the Pats, I'd guess they're ok with the videogram.
As Greg Bedard pointed out today, Belichick treats Gronk differently than other players. Can you think of any other player BB would hold out during all preseason games? Christ, they even paid him $4M of his $10M option bonus EARLY this year just to show good faith - the Pats never do that stuff at those dollar figures.
Clearly, Team Gronk (Gordie and Drew Rosenhaus) wanted to put this message out there. I'm sure BB okayed it and I agree with nattysez, I'd be shocked if we see Gronk play another down in the regular season. Belichick knows Gronkowski is special from a talent perspective and he's stated numerous times that nobody works harder. He gets more leeway than other players. Like Jimmy Johnson always said, "You treat them all fairly, doesn't mean you treat them the same."
Clearly, Team Gronk (Gordie and Drew Rosenhaus) wanted to put this message out there. I'm sure BB okayed it and I agree with nattysez, I'd be shocked if we see Gronk play another down in the regular season. Belichick knows Gronkowski is special from a talent perspective and he's stated numerous times that nobody works harder. He gets more leeway than other players. Like Jimmy Johnson always said, "You treat them all fairly, doesn't mean you treat them the same."
Honestly, rest everyone until the playoffs. Even as the number three seed this team would be a force with a healthy Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, Hightower and Collins. Winning is secondary to me right now, just get guys ready to go for when it counts and see if you can grab a first round bye along the way.
It's not a license to injure. There are a ton of hits at the knees and below that don't result in injuries all the time. Tackling is an integral part of the game, too.
I just saw the replay of the Hightower injury; he's lucky it wasn't more serious, that was a grade A fucking cheap shot, Green dove at his knees and like you said, Hightower had his head up and was chasing the ball carrier, never saw it coming..
Fucking Denver.
I think after the debacle with Gronk's arm, his family felt like Gronkowski might have been pressured into returning early, perhaps in part by speculative time tables that had him returning sooner. There have been reports that "he might just miss 1-2 weeks" or "it's a pain management thing," statements which might raise questions or criticisms if Gronk isn't back in the next couple games. The team and player are issuing a joint statement that they're going to manage this prudently, ignore whatcha heard.
Early in the 2013 season, Gronk missed the first six games and every week it was, "Gronk's practicing, he looks like Superman in practice, will he be back this week, why isn't he back yet?" I think everyone involved wants to avoid a repeat of that. I don't think there's anything to be concerned with here.