The Judgment-Free Soccer Questions Thread

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Who is complaining about being hurt?

I watched an NFL game on a Thursday night where there were three injuries in five plays. Three commercial breaks because there was an intervening punt and then there were a couple of plays before the quarter break. Maybe 3 minutes of (shitty) football in 18 minutes.

Your position seems to be wear better equipment so you can get up quicker, even if means the game is not as good. If we were talking about the head or compound fractures, I could see the argument, but otherwise I don't even understand the problem. Though that often happens to me with soccer. Lots of non problems that don’t need fixing.
Good point. They don’t complain about getting hurt. They complain about getting tackled and appearing that they are hurt. Or something.

Anyway I was just responding to the idea that the shin guards are worthless and I pointed out that it doesn’t have to be that way. The NFL has gone back to requiring thigh pads for extra protection and yes it slows players down fractionally but they’ve adjusted just fine. If they really value keeping soccer players from getting hurt there’s an easy fix, but like you said, they don’t want to do it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Good point. They don’t complain about getting hurt. They complain about getting tackled and appearing that they are hurt. Or something.

Anyway I was just responding to the idea that the shin guards are worthless and I pointed out that it doesn’t have to be that way. The NFL has gone back to requiring thigh pads for extra protection and yes it slows players down fractionally but they’ve adjusted just fine. If they really value keeping soccer players from getting hurt there’s an easy fix, but like you said, they don’t want to do it.
Yeah, what they are complaining about is being fouled. Sometimes they embellish because they think that they will get a call that wasn't made or they will get a card or they will get a call next time.

No question that embellishment is a bit of a problem for which no good solution has seemed to come forward. Maybe permitting VAR to allow cards for simulation, but that would kind of slow down the game. I do agree though that there is less embellishment than it might seem because of the fact that fouls do really hurt.

I think you're right to note that equipment is a choice. There are definitely cases where players have been hurt pretty bad by entirely legal tackles. And maybe there are cases where those could be prevented by different equipment but by and large I don't think this is a problem that anyone is too focused on as a problem with the game -- more just the problem that all sports have.
 

graffam198

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Question time between breaks!

  1. Senegal/Ecuador game a handball was called. Rules official stated that the new rules are anything below the sleeve is a handball, above, not. Why would players not wear longer sleeves then? I think the rule is newer based on what I heard. There is no kit standard right? Just have to have a shirt, shoes, shin guards that provide "adequate protection"?
  2. Throw-Ins. Is anyone really watching? I've noticed more than a few where the release was clearly over the touch line and nothing was called. Not to mention the leniency on spotting and run up/down. I tell my kids to take every inch the ref will allow, but, at the youth level, they are pretty militant in their enforcement.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Question time between breaks!

  1. Senegal/Ecuador game a handball was called. Rules official stated that the new rules are anything below the sleeve is a handball, above, not. Why would players not wear longer sleeves then? I think the rule is newer based on what I heard. There is no kit standard right? Just have to have a shirt, shoes, shin guards that provide "adequate protection"?
  2. Throw-Ins. Is anyone really watching? I've noticed more than a few where the release was clearly over the touch line and nothing was called. Not to mention the leniency on spotting and run up/down. I tell my kids to take every inch the ref will allow, but, at the youth level, they are pretty militant in their enforcement.
I think they are using sleeve as shorthand. The arm ends at the armpit. So draw a line from the armpit to the outside of the arm and that's the bottom of your shoulder. There's a picture on page 99 of the laws: https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-2022-23?l=en

I think they watch more when you're close to the box of the goal in which you hope to score. Otherwise, yeah, they follow a rule of reason and ask whether there's a significant advantage gained. Some refs seem to be more persnickety and set the tone early.
 

Shelterdog

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Exactly, and those runs occurs because attackers are trying to beat the defender's offside trap. If you get rid of the offsides rule, these plays are gone.
I get that but wouldn't you also have long runs anyways? I get the concern about having a Peter Crouch type just kind of camping out in front of the goal and people lobbing low proability long passes to him, but with or without offsides aren't you going to have the equivalent of basketball fast breaks where the guy with the ball is trying to pass it to a steaking player also trying to get downfield?
 

singaporesoxfan

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Question time between breaks!

  1. Senegal/Ecuador game a handball was called. Rules official stated that the new rules are anything below the sleeve is a handball, above, not. Why would players not wear longer sleeves then? I think the rule is newer based on what I heard. There is no kit standard right? Just have to have a shirt, shoes, shin guards that provide "adequate protection"?
  2. Throw-Ins. Is anyone really watching? I've noticed more than a few where the release was clearly over the touch line and nothing was called. Not to mention the leniency on spotting and run up/down. I tell my kids to take every inch the ref will allow, but, at the youth level, they are pretty militant in their enforcement.
Your first question goes back to the letter of the law / spirit of the law differences between soccer and American sports. The IFAB rulebook opens with an intro that says "The Laws cannot deal with every possible situation, so where there is no direct provision in the Laws, The IFAB expects the referee to make a decision within the ‘spirit’ of the game and the Laws – this often involves asking the question, “what would football want/expect?”", where no such thing is found in the NFL rulebook. So the "below the sleeve is a handball" rule isn't a hard-coded rule that allows you to wear long sleeves, it's a quick heuristic to say "hey, a ball hit around the sleeve area of a regular jersey is legal". Refs have full discretion to call a ball hitting the lower part of a long-sleeved t-shirt a handball.
 

singaporesoxfan

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Question time between breaks!

  1. Senegal/Ecuador game a handball was called. Rules official stated that the new rules are anything below the sleeve is a handball, above, not. Why would players not wear longer sleeves then? I think the rule is newer based on what I heard. There is no kit standard right? Just have to have a shirt, shoes, shin guards that provide "adequate protection"?
  2. Throw-Ins. Is anyone really watching? I've noticed more than a few where the release was clearly over the touch line and nothing was called. Not to mention the leniency on spotting and run up/down. I tell my kids to take every inch the ref will allow, but, at the youth level, they are pretty militant in their enforcement.
On your 2nd question, I don't think anyone is really calling anything unless it's egregious, unlike youth football.

But since we're talking about throw-ins and Iran, here's a couple of video clips showing Iranian players doing the somersault throw-in, which done right is super impressive to watch

View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350178061636038656?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ


View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350180089686880263?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ
 

graffam198

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Thanks @singaporesoxfan and @DennyDoyle'sBoil. I think I am also conflating what might be American Rules? One of my co-coaches is also a ref here, and he said part of the new education, at least during covid, was an extension of the handball rule. Basically, if your hand was anywhere on your body that could legally play a ball, handball would not be called so long as it didn't "direct" the ball. i.e. if your hand was on your chest and the ball hit off of it, no longer a hand ball. Not having attended any ref classes I can't speak to the veracity.

One of the things that is so beautiful / maddening about the sport is the interpretation by the refs. Sure, it can be maddening, but, if they are consistent, it just adds a layer to the game.
 

graffam198

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On your 2nd question, I don't think anyone is really calling anything unless it's egregious, unlike youth football.

But since we're talking about throw-ins and Iran, here's a couple of video clips showing Iranian players doing the somersault throw-in, which done right is super impressive to watch

View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350178061636038656?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ


View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350180089686880263?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ
I have 2 girls on my team that have amazing hand springs. We are working on this...Their hands are just a little too small and they are lacking the confidence...but I can HARDLY wait for one of them to drop that in a game. I pull my phone out EVERY TIME they go to take the throw in just in case :)
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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I get that but wouldn't you also have long runs anyways? I get the concern about having a Peter Crouch type just kind of camping out in front of the goal and people lobbing low proability long passes to him, but with or without offsides aren't you going to have the equivalent of basketball fast breaks where the guy with the ball is trying to pass it to a steaking player also trying to get downfield?
Without offsides the equivalent to a fast break would be to just hoof the ball to the attacker(s). Basketball only has 5 players, so everyone needs to defend, but football has 11, so one player not participating in the defense isn't as much of a liability. Especially if the attacker also holds a defender that needs to stay back to defend against fast breaks.

@DJnVa talked, earlier in this thread, about some experiments that were made on this subject:
It degenerates into players staying in zones and there's no movement. It starts with defenders unable to carry the ball up the field because if there's a turnover there's a striker poaching. Midfielders would become exhausted, because they'd be tasked with carrying the ball upfield but also getting all the way back and helping on defense. To stop this, defenders would stay in their third, midfielders in middle third with occasional forays up or back, and attackers would stay up high. The game would lose flow and movement.

In the late 60s, Ajax played AZ '67 in a game without offside, and other rules intended to bolster offense--kick-ins, and corner kicks being taken from the place the ball went over the end line, unless it was in the box. This game featured Johan Cruyff and it was said: "During the match, centre forward Johan Cruyff and winger Piet Keizer were reduced to goal-hanging, mostly in vain. “Most of the time he was of little use,” the reporter for the Het Vrije Volk newspaper said of Cruyff. Which, De Telegraaf newspaper reported, could hardly be blamed on Cruyff, for neither he nor Keizer was involved in play much by their teammates." The game was played with 2 30-minute halves and ended 2-1.

Also, here's a video of 2 German teams trying. The box became much more congested, the game was less structured, and the final score was 1-0.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reY1CWMo57Y
 

SocrManiac

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I have 2 girls on my team that have amazing hand springs. We are working on this...Their hands are just a little too small and they are lacking the confidence...but I can HARDLY wait for one of them to drop that in a game. I pull my phone out EVERY TIME they go to take the throw in just in case :)
When I was in high school, Portsmouth, NH had a kid that was famous for this. He couldn’t play soccer to save his life. He had free reign to sit on the sideline and sub himself in for throw situations.

In my opinion, he never managed a legal one (his momentum always took him off his balance and onto the field) but referees never made a call.
 

SumnerH

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When I was in high school, Portsmouth, NH had a kid that was famous for this. He couldn’t play soccer to save his life. He had free reign to sit on the sideline and sub himself in for throw situations.

In my opinion, he never managed a legal one (his momentum always took him off his balance and onto the field) but referees never made a call.
There was a kid a couple years ahead of me at Brunswick High School who did this c.1990–1991, and was actually a pretty good player on a state champion team.

David Domingos, I believe.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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What the hell is a sub window?

you can’t just sub on any of your throw ins or goal kicks?
 

swiftaw

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What the hell is a sub window?

you can’t just sub on any of your throw ins or goal kicks?
When they switch from 3 subs to 5, they said you can only make subs at 3 times (not including half time). So for example, you could make 2 subs then another 2 subs then a final sub, but you couldn’t bring each sub on separately.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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On your 2nd question, I don't think anyone is really calling anything unless it's egregious, unlike youth football.

But since we're talking about throw-ins and Iran, here's a couple of video clips showing Iranian players doing the somersault throw-in, which done right is super impressive to watch

View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350178061636038656?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ


View: https://twitter.com/BehradTalebi/status/1350180089686880263?s=20&t=ZJ4FnTo7zPIWHp3h8NtuYQ
I have no words .. those are amazing. That’s far to wonderful to actually be legal?
 

Mighty Joe Young

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One obvious simple change they can make … in the wake of Nico Williams injury today .. is to implement temporary concussion subs. Get him off the field to be evaluated by the docs , and in this case FIFA docs , not the team. The temp substitution relieves the team of any jeopardy.
 

Catcher Block

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Oh it’s legal. And it’s glorious. There are some great YouTube videos on different styles put on by the Colorado women’s team
The glory of which is only surpassed by being on the opposing team and watching the ball slip out from under them when they plant it, commit a foul throw, and ward the ball to your team. (Essex County Youth Soccer had no shortage of kids trying this.)
 

graffam198

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The glory of which is only surpassed by being on the opposing team and watching the ball slip out from under them when they plant it, commit a foul throw, and ward the ball to your team. (Essex County Youth Soccer had no shortage of kids trying this.)
You can’t live in fear man. Glory lasts forever. Haha. In a tournament I might lose my mind. But for league play? Full send!
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Since this is a thread for relative newbies and we’re talking odd moves, we should also mention maybe the ultimate “death or glory” move which is the Panenka penalty kick.

Typical penalties involve hitting it hard and far to one side as possible, or the more modern version when they try to fake the keeper with a hop or stutter, usually at the cost of power, but are still trying to hit a side.

The Panenka relies on the fact that the keeper will pick a side and dive for a save attempt, with the penalty taker slowly lobbing the ball dead center right where the keeper was. If it works, the keeper dives while the ball leisurely goes over him and he looks like a fool.

If the keeper sniffs it out though, then he just stands there, catches the slow lob directly at him, and the penalty taker looks like the world’s biggest idiot asshole.

Well worth YouTubing at least one success video and one failure video.
 

Mystic Merlin

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There was a kid a couple years ahead of me at Brunswick High School who did this c.1990–1991, and was actually a pretty good player on a state champion team.

David Domingos, I believe.
A kid from my high school - who was also a national champion diver - scored a goal in a state championship game with a 50 yard somersault throw in (the goalie touched it). The play was nominated for an ESPY, but lost to that stupid Jeter relay flip against Oakland.

Just found a video of it, actually:

View: https://youtu.be/agy6G_FAOSY
 

67YAZ

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Since this is a thread for relative newbies and we’re talking odd moves, we should also mention maybe the ultimate “death or glory” move which is the Panenka penalty kick.

Typical penalties involve hitting it hard and far to one side as possible, or the more modern version when they try to fake the keeper with a hop or stutter, usually at the cost of power, but are still trying to hit a side.

The Panenka relies on the fact that the keeper will pick a side and dive for a save attempt, with the penalty taker slowly lobbing the ball dead center right where the keeper was. If it works, the keeper dives while the ball leisurely goes over him and he looks like a fool.

If the keeper sniffs it out though, then he just stands there, catches the slow lob directly at him, and the penalty taker looks like the world’s biggest idiot asshole.

Well worth YouTubing at least one success video and one failure video.
IMO, the coolest & the worst Panekas in history.


 

Mr. Wednesday

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Re the flip throws, when I was at Notre Dame, the women's team had a player (forward or wing midfielder) who routinely did a flip throw on opportunities in the attacking end. I've forgotten now whether they ever generated a goal off of them, but it was fun to watch.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I do dislike the VAR-enabled micro-judgements that find players offside by seeming millimetres, and I'm in favour of Arsene Wenger's proposed change to the rule that says no offside so long as a [single] body part which a player can score with is in line with the defender.
I cannot find the actual offside rule but have seen some variation of the following: an player is offside when any part of their head, body or feet is “nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent.”

I've also heard, anecdotally, that the measuring point is the defender's shoulder. But, again, I can't find this in writing.

58281

58282

These are the images from Weah's goal that was waived off. He doesn't seem beyond the defender's hand. His feet are not beyond the defender's feet. So why is he offside?
 

DJnVa

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I cannot find the actual offside rule but have seen some variation of the following: an player is offside when any part of their head, body or feet is “nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent.”

I've also heard, anecdotally, that the measuring point is the defender's shoulder. But, again, I can't find this in writing.

View attachment 58281

View attachment 58282

These are the images from Weah's goal that was waived off. He doesn't seem beyond the defender's hand. His feet are not beyond the defender's feet. So why is he offside?
The hand and arm do not count because a player cannot score (or defend) with them. The Laws of the Game say: "The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered."

Weah is offside because parts of his body that he can score with (right knee for example) are beyond the last non-arm/hand body part of the defender.


Laws of the Game are here: laws-of-the-game-2021-22 (theifab.com)
 

tims4wins

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I could maybe understand it if Weah's foot was past the defender, but with the foot planted on the ground in line with the defender, it's really difficult to get behind that rule.
 

Yo La Tengo

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The hand and arm do not count because a player cannot score (or defend) with them. The Laws of the Game say: "The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered."

Weah is offside because parts of his body that he can score with (right knee for example) are beyond the last non-arm/hand body part of the defender.
Got it- thanks! It seems bizarre to make this a 3-D assessment, and exclude some body parts, making it so the determination simply cannot accurately be made by a human linesman in real time. As compared to lining up the players' feet.

Has this body part but not those body parts rule always been used in the World Cup?
 

SocrManiac

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The intent of the rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by hanging out behind the back line. I struggle to see the advantage of having a knee beyond a butt. Wenger's modification seems to be correct. It isn't going to solve the problem, but it's going to add some level of error bar that we are lacking and restore some attacking balance.
 

tims4wins

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The intent of the rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by hanging out behind the back line. I struggle to see the advantage of having a knee beyond a butt. Wenger's modification seems to be correct. It isn't going to solve the problem, but it's going to add some level of error bar that we are lacking and restore some attacking balance.
Exactly, well put. The Weah ruling just doesn't violate the spirit of the rule.
 

DJnVa

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I hated that we lost the goal too, but the Weah call isn't really all that controversial at all. It was a close call, but it's indisputably the right one. It's not a toe off, it's half his body. That's always been the rule.
 

tims4wins

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I hated that we lost the goal too, but the Weah call isn't really all that controversial at all. It was a close call, but it's indisputably the right one. It's not a toe off, it's half his body. That's always been the rule.
But what is confusing is that both his feet are actually onside. Obviously it's clear that the call is correct by the letter of the rule. But as @SocrManiac said, what is the purpose of the rule to begin with? It's to prevent attackers from hanging out behind the D.
 

singaporesoxfan

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Got it- thanks! It seems bizarre to make this a 3-D assessment, and exclude some body parts, making it so the determination simply cannot accurately be made by a human linesman in real time. As compared to lining up the players' feet.

Has this body part but not those body parts rule always been used in the World Cup?
Yes, it's been the rule for not just the World Cup but regular football. Only difference is the use of the 3-D assessment instead of a judgement call. But that's why I like the Wenger modification, I think these microassessments are really not in the spirit of the offside rule.
 

DJnVa

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But what is confusing is that both his feet are actually onside. Obviously it's clear that the call is correct by the letter of the rule. But as @SocrManiac said, what is the purpose of the rule to begin with? It's to prevent attackers from hanging out behind the D.
I get that, and what you're saying--I like the Wenger change. But that's just a different argument.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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The Wenger modification doesn't change the error bars, it will just give an advantage to the offense. It's the inverse of the previous rule, were no part of the attacker could be beyond the defender.
 

DJnVa

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The Wenger modification doesn't change the error bars, it will just give an advantage to the offense. It's the inverse of the previous rule, were no part of the attacker could be beyond the defender.
True--I guess I'd just prefer that.
 

graffam198

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Why did Messi get a penalty kick against Poland? Keeper made contact with his face, after the header had happened. Is it purely a foul in the box?
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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It wasn't cardable, as it was barely a foul. But any foul in the area is a penalty.

In my opinion, if Messi were taller it wouldn't have being a foul. If the goalie had hit anywhere else but the face it would have been ok.
 

Cellar-Door

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Follow-up. Is that cardable? Or would that be beyond egregious?
Nothing card-worthy there. A yellow there would only happen on unsportsmanlike conduct. So if he say really forcefully hit him in the face maybe, or if it looked intentional (red in that case). If the ball was in play and he intentionally stopped him from getting to it that would be a card. In this case though, just a simple foul for hitting a player without playing the ball.
 

InstaFace

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Exactly, well put. The Weah ruling just doesn't violate the spirit of the rule.
This is the case for dozens of goals across the top leagues every week, though. I support the Wenger change ("any part of the attacker level with any part of the last defender", i.e. that you can be half a body past him and still be OK), but Weah's case was not particularly remarkable in that regard, and was absolutely correct by the current rules.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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This is the case for dozens of goals across the top leagues every week, though. I support the Wenger change ("any part of the attacker level with any part of the last defender", i.e. that you can be half a body past him and still be OK), but Weah's case was not particularly remarkable in that regard, and was absolutely correct by the current rules.
Yeah. The Weah offside was really not that close. It looked off in real time. The AR called it in real time correctly. The image shows that in addition to his leg, half his head an half his body is offside. In terms of the ticky tack VAR offside calls, that one doesn't hardly even rate. They showed a high bad angle that made it look closer than it was until the VAR picture came through.

With or without a modified or full Wenger rule, there is always going to be a line and once there is a line there are always going to be plays that are inches offside and so disallowed. Either we go back and say "no more VAR," which isn't happening, or we accept that once you have computers that can draw lines on real time pictures, you are always going to have photo finishes no matter what the rule says about where to draw the line.
 

Cellar-Door

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Honestly I think the Weah offside is a great use of VAR, adn it's exactly how I want offside called, because otherwise the offside trap is useless and you're just forcing teams to play deep which makes for less counters, and generally less exciting matches. The onus should be on the attacker to make the correct run, not the defender to shade every run deep because the attacker gets not just the benefit of the doubt but an actual advantage.