The Last Dance

Cellar-Door

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Also, the standard of calling something a “so called documentary” because some things were left on the editing room floor would mean that documentaries don’t exist.
I would say that this has been more Michael Jordan image piece than straight neutral doc This is very much Mike's POV and version of everything there have been a number of things that are pretty laughable that the doc takes as gospel from Jordan. They knew that getting Jordan buy-in meant telling the story how he wanted it told, and I'm fine with other guys who were in the room being upset with that.
 

Zososoxfan

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I agree that it's not clear what Pip's beef is here. Pip came across really well in the doc and I loved him before and after watching. Pip got his fair due from Jordan himself and the doc as others have said. In the final montage, I'm pretty sure Pip's dunk on Ewing was shown for like 4-5th time as it should be.

While I couldn't believe his comment about "doing it again" w/r/t sitting against the Kicks, I think @djbayko has it right--i.e. more of a philosophical or competitive perspective, not that he doesn't regret it.

The one thing Pip probably got short thrift on was the migraine game. As others have said, MJ basically doesn't comprehend that any ailment (short of a broken foot) could keep a player from playing, let a lone a debilitating migraine. But yeah, this doc is a lot of MJ's perspective and I don't think the doc itself did anything further to take sides on the subject (both Pip and MJ talk about it at length). And Pip got huge props for his super gutty Game 6 in '98.

As an aside, I used to think that my stepmother was exaggerating when she said she had migraines--and she's a piece of work, it's still totally possible. However, years later a coworker of mine had a couple and I recognized that they are very real and debilitating.
 

reggiecleveland

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Here is the format
1. Criticism/something makes Mike look bad
Mj looking at Ipad scoffing "bullshit"
Sycophant 1 "Mike is right"
Sycophant 2 "Mike is like super right"
Timeline moves

I mean Bob Costas is your expert witness on whether he pushed off Russell? Costas who understands athletics so well he thought if you divided an athlete's 200m time in half that would be the 100m time.

The format was so lazy, and predictable. A better PR firm would have shown Miller pushing him off, get Magic or Bird to (correctly) say refs will not decide a championship on that call.

Also I laughed a little bit about MJ trapped alone in his hotel room. He was not alone and has the divorce to show for it.

My kid just signed to play college hoops here so, I don't mind the Leni Riefenstahl heroic version of Mike, since it is a good hoops example to him, work your ass off, use slights as motivation, look at the foot work, look how he is talking about d, stand uo to tge vets.

But, fellas crying at the end, saying it is a fair, balanced Doc? Come on.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Since I know we have a lot of Posnanski fans here, I share his latest column, including his self-described "rant" on the doc. A little surprised he's going so all-in against it without watching it, but whatever. He's always passionate.

 

coremiller

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Here is the format
1. Criticism/something makes Mike look bad
Mj looking at Ipad scoffing "bullshit"
Sycophant 1 "Mike is right"
Sycophant 2 "Mike is like super right"
Timeline moves

I mean Bob Costas is your expert witness on whether he pushed off Russell? Costas who understands athletics so well he thought if you divided an athlete's 200m time in half that would be the 100m time.

The format was so lazy, and predictable. A better PR firm would have shown Miller pushing him off, get Magic or Bird to (correctly) say refs will not decide a championship on that call.

Also I laughed a little bit about MJ trapped alone in his hotel room. He was not alone and has the divorce to show for it.

My kid just signed to play college hoops here so, I don't mind the Leni Riefenstahl heroic version of Mike, since it is a good hoops example to him, work your ass off, use slights as motivation, look at the foot work, look how he is talking about d, stand uo to tge vets.

But, fellas crying at the end, saying it is a fair, balanced Doc? Come on.
One of the things the doc brought back for me was how much I couldn't stand Costas calling basketball and, conversely, how great peak Marv Albert was. It was such a shame that Marv wasn't around to call the 98 Finals (his own damn fault, and totally deserved).
 

Kliq

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Since I know we have a lot of Posnanski fans here, I share his latest column, including his self-described "rant" on the doc. A little surprised he's going so all-in against it without watching it, but whatever. He's always passionate.

It's kind of a weird article. He seems more annoyed with the discourse of people talking about The Last Dance (and inherently, 80s and 90s basketball and Jordan and the Bulls) than with the actual quality of the film. That makes sense, since it really has dominated the news cycle and plenty of people are tired of hearing about how great that era of basketball was and how nothing today could ever compare to that era. However, my sense of the documentary is that isn't exactly represented in the film. Sure, the differences of the 80s and 90s are discussed and perhaps even glamorized, but I didn't see it as a commercial for wanting things to be the way they used to be. The documentary follows Jordan's basketball career and of course, that is going to lead to people talking a lot about how great he was, because Jordan's basketball career was pretty much a parade of great achievements.

He also said that he doesn't find Jordan interesting, which is a take. Even if you think Jodan was an over-competitive SOB, his story is certainly fascinating, just from the standpoint at examining his level of fame and his inability to turn off the competitive streak that made him an amazing basketball player, but also made him a damaged person. Pos is entitled to his opinion, but subjectively I think it is fair to say that Jordan is a pretty interesting personality.
 

djbayko

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To me this actually kind of confirms the story. Okay, so MJ's trainer might have embellished a bit when he said there were 5 delivery people. But even TWO delivery people for one pizza is awfully weird, so that checks out. I never believed the trainer's implication that there there was something intentionally wrong with the pizza (the most likely answer was always that the pizza dudes just wanted to get a glimpse of NBA players). But no one can say with certainty that it wasn't food poisoning, and we know MJ actually got sick after eating it.
 
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djbayko

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I would say that this has been more Michael Jordan image piece than straight neutral doc This is very much Mike's POV and version of everything there have been a number of things that are pretty laughable that the doc takes as gospel from Jordan. They knew that getting Jordan buy-in meant telling the story how he wanted it told, and I'm fine with other guys who were in the room being upset with that.
Okay, but you just added the word "neutral". It's still a documentary. Almost no doc is 100% unbiased in its editing. "So called documentary" is a silly thing for him to say.
 

djbayko

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It's kind of a weird article. He seems more annoyed with the discourse of people talking about The Last Dance (and inherently, 80s and 90s basketball and Jordan and the Bulls) than with the actual quality of the film. That makes sense, since it really has dominated the news cycle and plenty of people are tired of hearing about how great that era of basketball was and how nothing today could ever compare to that era. However, my sense of the documentary is that isn't exactly represented in the film. Sure, the differences of the 80s and 90s are discussed and perhaps even glamorized, but I didn't see it as a commercial for wanting things to be the way they used to be. The documentary follows Jordan's basketball career and of course, that is going to lead to people talking a lot about how great he was, because Jordan's basketball career was pretty much a parade of great achievements.

He also said that he doesn't find Jordan interesting, which is a take. Even if you think Jodan was an over-competitive SOB, his story is certainly fascinating, just from the standpoint at examining his level of fame and his inability to turn off the competitive streak that made him an amazing basketball player, but also made him a damaged person. Pos is entitled to his opinion, but subjectively I think it is fair to say that Jordan is a pretty interesting personality.
Completely agree with this. The documentary doesn't say anything about the 90s game being better at all. Maybe he should watch the show first. Yeah, you have people saying the game was better as a result. Welcome to 2020, social media, and sports talk since like 1996.

As for MJ not being interesting, 6 million TV viewers for 2 hours per week disagree.
 

Sille Skrub

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But no one can say with certainty that it wasn't food poisoning, and we know MJ actually got sick after eating it.
I think the story was unnecessary. MJ already has received a ton of (deserved) mad props for playing through the sickness. We get it and we have given him his just due.

For me, adding the l'affair de Pizza was just a lame attempt to make it look more *omg* *amazeballs*.
 

djbayko

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I think the story was unnecessary. MJ already has received a ton of (deserved) mad props for playing through the sickness. We get it and we have given him his just due.

For me, adding the l'affair de Pizza was just a lame attempt to make it look more *omg* *amazeballs*.
So if it really was food poisoning, you don't think they should have set the record straight? Just continue the lie? Because they obviously have to address that game in a 10 hour documentary. Frankly, I was more impressed when I thought it was the flu.
 

Cellar-Door

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Sure, set the record straight with the right story.

I definitely was more impressed when it was the flu.
It wasn't the flu or a poisoned pizza, he was sick for the same reason he was ordering a pizza to eat entirely by himself early in the morning. He was drunk off his ass and hungover the next day
 

tims4wins

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It wasn't the flu or a poisoned pizza, he was sick for the same reason he was ordering a pizza to eat entirely by himself early in the morning. He was drunk off his ass and hungover the next day
Huh?

When Jordan felt hungry at 10:30 p.m. while in his hotel room with trainer Tim Glover and personal assistant George Koehler the trio ordered a pizza, which Jordan ate all by himself.

"I ate the pizza," Jordan said in the documentary. "All by myself. Nobody else ate the pizza. I wake up about 2:30 throwing up left and right."
 

Cellar-Door

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Huh?

When Jordan felt hungry at 10:30 p.m. while in his hotel room with trainer Tim Glover and personal assistant George Koehler the trio ordered a pizza, which Jordan ate all by himself.

"I ate the pizza," Jordan said in the documentary. "All by myself. Nobody else ate the pizza. I wake up about 2:30 throwing up left and right."
10:30PM is early in the morning? If it wasn't pizza why not just let the flu story ride?
Hmm, I had the time wrong, for some reason I remembered the story being that it was late and most places were closed.

As to why not let the flu story ride? Who knows, probably because people have been saying he was hung over not sick for years. "Flu-like symptoms" has long been code for... partied too hard in the NBA.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Hmm, I had the time wrong, for some reason I remembered the story being that it was late and most places were closed.

As to why not let the flu story ride? Who knows, probably because people have been saying he was hung over not sick for years. "Flu-like symptoms" has long been code for... partied too hard in the NBA.
Most places were closed, but I think they mentioned that as it being Salt Lake City, i.e. mormons go to bed early; but I dunno.

I've literally never heard he was hungover, but if that's a thing, food poisoning isn't throwing shade on it anymore than the flu is. Unless you think he got hammered drinking 2% beer in his hotel room all alone.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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So, Google turns up two rumors, that he was in Vegas or he was at Robert Redford's chalet playing cards. Somehow he got back to eat pizza at 10:30 pm and no one saw him at either place? Strap on your foil hats guys, its GO time!
 

johnmd20

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Since I know we have a lot of Posnanski fans here, I share his latest column, including his self-described "rant" on the doc. A little surprised he's going so all-in against it without watching it, but whatever. He's always passionate.

This might be the worst thing Pos has ever written. It's actually insane. And wrong. The pandemic takes no prisoners.
 

djbayko

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Hmm, I had the time wrong, for some reason I remembered the story being that it was late and most places were closed.

As to why not let the flu story ride? Who knows, probably because people have been saying he was hung over not sick for years. "Flu-like symptoms" has long been code for... partied too hard in the NBA.
This is true. But they were staying in a hotel in Park City, not Salt Lake. I've worked in that area, and everything closes pretty early.
 

queenb

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When was MJ trapped alone in his hotel room?
If you're responding to the divorce comment above, probably the earlier episodes that did a whole segment on how regimented and lonely his life was once he reached mega stardom. A few guys, I think including Kerr, said when they were on the road most Bulls players could leave the hotel without being mobbed. Meanwhile Jordan had to stay in his room to get any peace and quiet. That part I believe. He probably also enjoyed his fair share of, how you say, room service, but that still counts as being trapped.

On that point, though, it's hard to feel too bad for Jordan. I have some sympathy for famous people who seem to have had no idea that fame is a prison. But at a certain point Jordan seems to have chosen to cultivate a personal brand that precluded him from being seen living any kind of normal life, and ended up confined by the expectations that come with mass marketability. This is why Rodman is such a contrast as a guy who appeared to enjoy every second of the life his fame and money afforded him. He could consistently be among the masses, turn down authograph requests (not saying he did this, but if he does turn down some kid, that doesn't impact shoe sales), ignore the media, and fuck around and do what he wanted with no real consequence. If you're not overly invested in your image/reputation, you're free.
 

serotonin

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I happened to turn on the radio in the car today and pause on WEEI, whatever show Ordway is doing these days had Jackie Macmullan on to talk about Jordan and The Last Dance. I wasn't able to listen as closely as I would have liked, but she talked a lot about how different Jordan was before the championships, etc. He would talk to basically everyone, from out of town media to tv and radio guys to whoever he happened to be in a room with. In the offseason he'd work out in public gyms next to (paraphrasing) Joe from Deerfield and chat everyone up like a normal person. In contrast, by the time the Bulls were going for their second run of championships she suggested that a lot of guys on the team probably didn't know him very well given the way he isolated himself.

Anyway, it's probably worth tracking down the segment if you're interested in her perspective.
 

InstaFace

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This might be the worst thing Pos has ever written. It's actually insane. And wrong. The pandemic takes no prisoners.
Seriously. If there's one thing I took from the documentary, it's that it actually documented - it examined its subjects pretty dispassionately, celebrated their triumphs with a little bit of violin crescendos but didn't shy away from covering the warts-and-all. At no point did I feel like Hehir was trying to push a "Look at how admirable Jordan is!" narrative. Not a word about charitable endeavors and exactly one shot of his kids in the entire show, etc.

Posnanski is welcome to hate on anyone who overhypes the 80s-90s era of the NBA, and anyone who uses the occasion of the documentary being released (amid a barren wasteland of other sports content to diffuse its presence) to do so. But it's weird that he doesn't even acknowledge the possibility that watching it might bring him enjoyment to have the story of that era be retold for him.

It's too crowded, nobody goes there anymore.
 

CantKeepmedown

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When was MJ trapped alone in his hotel room?
They talked about it during one of the episodes. I think it was his best friend saying how he can't leave his room due to his celebrity and it's the only time he has to himself where he can just sit/lay down and be alone. Makes sense, but I guess because he got divorced, that means he was never alone in his room.
 

Cellar-Door

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TiredParent

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Implicit in all of the Isiah discussion is that he was snubbed. For those who think he should have been on the team, whose place should he have taken, with the understanding that there was always going to be a college player, and he was never going to take Bird's (largely ceremonial) place?
 

coremiller

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Implicit in all of the Isiah discussion is that he was snubbed. For those who think he should have been on the team, whose place should he have taken, with the understanding that there was always going to be a college player, and he was never going to take Bird's (largely ceremonial) place?
It would have been Stockton. It's not clear that Thomas was better than Stockton by the Summer of 92, but Thomas certainly had a higher profile and reputation.
 

bosockboy

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It would have been Stockton. It's not clear that Thomas was better than Stockton by the Summer of 92, but Thomas certainly had a higher profile and reputation.
Or possibly Mullin since they had a lot of wing players. In 1992 Stockton was better though. He was peaking.
 

TiredParent

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Or possibly Mullin since they had a lot of wing players. In 1992 Stockton was better though. He was peaking.
Not that it really mattered with that team, but Mullin's versatility and shooting at the wing probably fit in better with whatever lineup was on the floor. I assume it is Stockton as well, but I am just having trouble getting to worked up with the "snub" argument regarding losing a spot to another hall-of-famer, who played the same position and was statistically superior in pretty much every category at that time. I get it from a fan reputation perspective( lived in southern Ontario during the late 80s, so we used to drive to Detroit just to see the Pistons, and Isiah was electric), but by 92 he just was not that Isiah. And really, neither was going to get any playing time. It is like the Laettner/O'Neal debate. In retrospect it would have been awesome in Shaq was on the team, but he still would have only been in for garbage time behind Robinson and Ewing.
 

Leather

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Bumping because this is on Netflix, now.

I'm 2 episodes in, and so far it does seem like Jerry Krause gets a lot of undeserved shit thrown his way, or at least it leaves one to wish he was around to explain his thinking. He obviously had a huge amount of pride that threatened to be his undoing, but so did Jordan, Pippen and Phil Jackson. The fact that Jordan hated the Oakley-for-Cartwright trade is soft peddled (at least so far by Ep. 2) as "Yeah, I liked Charles, he was my bodyguard. Oh well." But that was a great trade for those first few Bulls champioship teams, and it seems unfair that Krause isn't around to clap back after some of those Jordan insults ("We'd have to lower the rim, Jerry!") with something like "Sure, I couldn't dunk or play on the court, but Jordan would have run that team into the ground if a softer GM had listened to him."

I mean, as any Pats fan knows: sometimes to be a good GM you have to be bloodless and think toward the future. That's the job. Holding that against Krause seems small.

Anyway. Good stuff.
 

Spelunker

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Bumping because this is on Netflix, now.

I'm 2 episodes in, and so far it does seem like Jerry Krause gets a lot of undeserved shit thrown his way, or at least it leaves one to wish he was around to explain his thinking. He obviously had a huge amount of pride that threatened to be his undoing, but so did Jordan, Pippen and Phil Jackson. The fact that Jordan hated the Oakley-for-Cartwright trade is soft peddled (at least so far by Ep. 2) as "Yeah, I liked Charles, he was my bodyguard. Oh well." But that was a great trade for those first few Bulls champioship teams, and it seems unfair that Krause isn't around to clap back after some of those Jordan insults ("We'd have to lower the rim, Jerry!") with something like "Sure, I couldn't dunk or play on the court, but Jordan would have run that team into the ground if a softer GM had listened to him."

I mean, as any Pats fan knows: sometimes to be a good GM you have to be bloodless and think toward the future. That's the job. Holding that against Krause seems small.

Anyway. Good stuff.
Jordan's future career as an executive makes Krause look even better.