The Last Dance

Kliq

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The doc is very clear about Krause's intentions after 1998 and blowing up the team with only Jordan left standing (who wanted no part of it). That wasn't really a revelation, it's been known for quite long. It's also very clear from accounts given by people outside the organization that Krause really deserved no sympathy for his reputation - as one put it "Jerry lived his life as the same fat, poor kid he was growing up; he was constantly trying to get credit or slapped on the back" (not an exact quote); and he pulled petty shit like the incident with his daughter's wedding and his infamous "players and coaches don't win championships, organizations do", which he tried to weasel out of by playing semantics. That he hired Jackson as an assistant coach and won titles with that roster doesn't elevate him to Auerbach or Popovich status - no one is mentioning Bob Myers with those guys either; and Jordan's treatment of him is no worse that LBJ's antics on pretty much every team he's been on.
I'm not saying Krause deserves the same amount of credit as Red or Popovich, just that it seems like there is a pretty big gap between how they are thought of and how Krause is thought of. Myers isn't in that class either, but he isn't exactly treated like a punchline either.

I'm not sure how much the Jordan doc goes into his bullying of Krause because I haven't watched it yet, but having read about it in a number of books, it to me is far beyond whatever stuff LeBron pulled.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I'm not saying Krause deserves the same amount of credit as Red or Popovich, just that it seems like there is a pretty big gap between how they are thought of and how Krause is thought of. Myers isn't in that class either, but he isn't exactly treated like a punchline either.

I'm not sure how much the Jordan doc goes into his bullying of Krause because I haven't watched it yet, but having read about it in a number of books, it to me is far beyond whatever stuff LeBron pulled.
There's a big gap because Red and Pop were also the coaches of those dynasties, for one thing. And the regard in which he was held was a large part his own fault; the press corps at the times routinely say he treated them like idiots.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Jordan and LeBron, I find getting executives and coaches fired because they weren't hand picked and/or players traded or acquired/extended because LeBron wanted to play with them far worse than picking on Krause for being chubby, when Krause himself was known to treat people like shit; Reinsdorf himself says he alienated people with his personality and that* Jerry was probably his biggest defender. YMMV.
 

santadevil

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I see the first two epiosdes are on Netflix Canada this morning, are you Americans that lucky as well? Or do you need to set your DVR's?
 
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ifmanis5

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Huge ratings, as expected.
https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/tv-ratings-espn-last-dance-1234585226/
An average of 6.1 million viewers tuned in to watch the first two episodes of the much-anticipated documentary series “Last Dance” across ESPN and ESPN 2, a boon to the Walt Disney-owned sports networks as they scramble to maneuver in a climate where nearly all live sports have been canceled.

Citing data from Nielsen, ESPN said an average of 3.5 million who watched the episodes were between 18 and 49.

The debut episodes mark the two most-viewed original content broadcasts on ESPN’s networks since 2004, surpassing the 2012 film “You Don’t Know Bo,’ which captured an average viewership of 3.6 million.
 

Soxy

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I see the first two epiosdes are on Netflix Canada this morning, are you Americans that lucky as well? Or do you need to set your DVR's?
It's only on Netflix outside of the US, at least for the time being. From the article that I linked in my previous post:

All 10 episodes will air on ESPN and the ESPN App in the U.S. and can be streamed outside the U.S. on Netflix.
As long as you have a TV package that includes ESPN, you can stream it in the US. You don't need to be a paying ESPN+ subscriber. (ESPN+ is pretty great, though.)
 

johnmd20

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I have to say, that 2nd episode was pretty stellar. I can't wait for how great the rest of this doc is going to be.

I wonder what the ratings were?(edit - heh, answered while I was posting, thanks ifmanis5)
 

bankshot1

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Not the same era, obviously, but how do people here compare Pippen to McHale on these top whatever lists? I’ve always felt that Pippen was a bit overrated due to overexposure as part of the Jordan Bulls and the questionable assumption that Jordan’s beta could have been someone else’s alpha.
I'm not sure that comp has been done. Or I haven't seen it. Eras weren't that different, with some overlap, but McHale was mostly cooked as Pippen started to make his presence known. The similarities are both played in the shadow of alltime great players. Pippen was the clear 2 to alpha-Jordan, McHale and Parrish both could have been the Bird's beta, which was one reason that front-court was probably the greatest in NBA history. Both (Pippen and McHale) )were great defensive players, with McHale more an inside presence against other forwards and centers (2nd best Celtic shot blocker behind only #6, have to see on TimeLord) , but Pippen could guard inside and outside, perimeter to rim, 1 through 5. I think McHale was the better offensive player, (not much of an assist guy, once he got the ball it was his) and all but unstoppable playing in the low-post, but Pippen was probably the better all around, more versatile player. I've seen rankings where McHale was 30-35 ish all-time, Pippen 25-30. Not much of a difference.
 

j-man

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I haven't seen the documentary yet, but Krause to me always got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure on him wanting to blow up the Bulls after the 98 season, but the guy was a damn good general manager. People chalk up his success as just being fortunate enough to have Jordan, but plenty of generational talents have had their championship parades canceled by being saddled with terrible supporting casts. Drafting Scottie Pippen is one of the greatest draft steals in NBA history, and he was able to consistently to get capable role players and accomplished veterans to fill out the roster. Again, having MJ makes it easier to lure those players over, but we have seen plenty of situations were just having a star player isn't enough. He also deserves credit for bringing in Phil Jackson as the head coach, who at the time was viewed as an outcast and an unconventional thinker who could never be a head coach in the NBA.

When you think about the great NBA dynasties, the figures who ran those teams, Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Greg Popovich, are all seen as just brilliant basketball minds; the smartest men to ever work in basketball, even while they all benefited from transcendent basketball talents leading their teams. . Krause is a fat loser who rode Jordan's coattails to six championships.

Jordan relentlessly bullied Krause and always made him the villain, in a way that would be very uncomfortable if it happened in 2020. Jordan always held a grudge against Krause for trading away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. I've read a few Jordan books, and one thing is clear (as Charlotte Hornet fans now know) is that Jordan has no idea how to run a good basketball team. When he was with the Bulls he basically just wanted them to draft Carolina guys.
in 1990 jordan wanted a old alex engilsh guy just because he went to n car krause was right to break up the team but the 2000 2001 was bad up top but tim floyd was the worst choice jim o brien wouild had been betther
 

j-man

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i was a big bulls fan in the 90's because of jordan plus pippen is form my home state my dad fav player is bird meeting jordan was my backup make a wish
 

bosockboy

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Would love to have seen Pippen’s career if he was drafted by say, the Suns or Nets. Would he have developed into a top 50 player without Jordan?
 

Deathofthebambino

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I haven't seen the documentary yet, but Krause to me always got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure on him wanting to blow up the Bulls after the 98 season, but the guy was a damn good general manager. People chalk up his success as just being fortunate enough to have Jordan, but plenty of generational talents have had their championship parades canceled by being saddled with terrible supporting casts. Drafting Scottie Pippen is one of the greatest draft steals in NBA history, and he was able to consistently to get capable role players and accomplished veterans to fill out the roster. Again, having MJ makes it easier to lure those players over, but we have seen plenty of situations were just having a star player isn't enough. He also deserves credit for bringing in Phil Jackson as the head coach, who at the time was viewed as an outcast and an unconventional thinker who could never be a head coach in the NBA.

When you think about the great NBA dynasties, the figures who ran those teams, Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Greg Popovich, are all seen as just brilliant basketball minds; the smartest men to ever work in basketball, even while they all benefited from transcendent basketball talents leading their teams. . Krause is a fat loser who rode Jordan's coattails to six championships.

Jordan relentlessly bullied Krause and always made him the villain, in a way that would be very uncomfortable if it happened in 2020. Jordan always held a grudge against Krause for trading away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. I've read a few Jordan books, and one thing is clear (as Charlotte Hornet fans now know) is that Jordan has no idea how to run a good basketball team. When he was with the Bulls he basically just wanted them to draft Carolina guys.
A few of these views will change when you see the doc. Particulaly about Oakley. Jordan says in the piece that trading Oakley was the right move.

Krause should get a lot of credit for building the roster, but he should absolutely get excoriated for demolishing it. This isn't the Pats being a step ahead and retooling before they needed to. This was Bob Kraft, playing the role of Krause, and telling Belichick he's got one year left coming off 5 championships...
 

Leather

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i was a big bulls fan in the 90's because of jordan plus pippen is form my home state my dad fav player is bird meeting jordan was my backup make a wish
If you don’t mind me asking, what was your preferred make-a-wish? Another b-ball player? Someone on the Broncos (you’re a Broncs fan, right?).
 

Marciano490

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I haven't seen the documentary yet, but Krause to me always got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure on him wanting to blow up the Bulls after the 98 season, but the guy was a damn good general manager. People chalk up his success as just being fortunate enough to have Jordan, but plenty of generational talents have had their championship parades canceled by being saddled with terrible supporting casts. Drafting Scottie Pippen is one of the greatest draft steals in NBA history, and he was able to consistently to get capable role players and accomplished veterans to fill out the roster. Again, having MJ makes it easier to lure those players over, but we have seen plenty of situations were just having a star player isn't enough. He also deserves credit for bringing in Phil Jackson as the head coach, who at the time was viewed as an outcast and an unconventional thinker who could never be a head coach in the NBA.

When you think about the great NBA dynasties, the figures who ran those teams, Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Greg Popovich, are all seen as just brilliant basketball minds; the smartest men to ever work in basketball, even while they all benefited from transcendent basketball talents leading their teams. . Krause is a fat loser who rode Jordan's coattails to six championships.

Jordan relentlessly bullied Krause and always made him the villain, in a way that would be very uncomfortable if it happened in 2020. Jordan always held a grudge against Krause for trading away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. I've read a few Jordan books, and one thing is clear (as Charlotte Hornet fans now know) is that Jordan has no idea how to run a good basketball team. When he was with the Bulls he basically just wanted them to draft Carolina guys.
Slate agrees:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/04/the-last-dance-jerry-krause-created-and-destroyed-the-bulls-dynasty.html?via=homepage_taps_bottom
 

lovegtm

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Would love to have seen Pippen’s career if he was drafted by say, the Suns or Nets. Would he have developed into a top 50 player without Jordan?
Probably he would have developed into the kind of guy who made everyone’s “that guy was underrated” lists. Kind of a rich man’s Andrei Kirilenko.
 

CantKeepmedown

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Sure, Krause deserves credit for building those teams. But to tell your coach, after winning 5 titles in 7 years, that he's gone after this year no matter what is insane. I know Jordan wanted no part of a rebuild. Was it stated that Jackson felt the same?

Jordan was pretty clear that he wouldn't play without Jackson being the coach, so Krause had to know they were both leaving. I was pretty tuned in back then, but don't remember it playing out like that. Was the, "I don't care if you go 82-0, this is your last year" comment made public before now?
 

loshjott

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To me the whole MJ vs. LeBron debate is impossible because of the presence of Pippen. I give the nod to MJ but with someone of Pippen's caliber next to LeBron his whole career, who knows??
 

johnmd20

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To me the whole MJ vs. LeBron debate is impossible because of the presence of Pippen. I give the nod to MJ but with someone of Pippen's caliber next to LeBron his whole career, who knows??
He had it briefly with Wade. Lebron went to 4 straight finals and won 2. Lebron's best years, from 2006 to 2010 were literally wasted because Cleveland never got a great 2nd player. Mo Williams? Obviously he was paired up with AD this year and the Lakers were winning a lot.

If Lebron had a Pippen, he would have a few more championships. Not sure how many, though. Golden State was tough to beat regardless. But the Championship teams from 2007 to 2010 were beatable, even the Celtics and the Lakers.
 

jsinger121

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When you lose to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 when you are a heavy favorite you don't deserve to be in the conversation with Jordan. When you are also 3-6 in the NBA Finals you can't be on the same level of Jordan.
 

BaseballJones

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He had it briefly with Wade. Lebron went to 4 straight finals and won 2. Lebron's best years, from 2006 to 2010 were literally wasted because Cleveland never got a great 2nd player. Mo Williams? Obviously he was paired up with AD this year and the Lakers were winning a lot.

If Lebron had a Pippen, he would have a few more championships. Not sure how many, though. Golden State was tough to beat regardless. But the Championship teams from 2007 to 2010 were beatable, even the Celtics and the Lakers.
Would love to have seen prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat go up against the Steph/Durant/Klay Warriors.
 

BigSoxFan

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Would love to have seen prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat go up against the Steph/Durant/Klay Warriors.
Likewise for prime Big 3 against the Miami version. Feel like NBA fans always just miss these epic matchups. Nature of the beast, I know.
 

jaytftwofive

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Why were the Bulls and Reinsdorf and Einhorn so cheap to the other players besides MJ? That was a gold franchise in the 3rd biggest market. I never liked those 2 particularly Reinsdorf.Not being a homer or paranoid Soxfan but didn't he use to undermine the Red Sox with blocking trades and signings because he was friends with Big Stine??? I think it was in a book maybe Buster Olney's book or some one else? Plus those 2 were both from New York(not Krause). I had also heard Jerry R was jealous of the Red Sox success also. Just wondered if anyone had heard that also. Ok Einhorn was from North Jersey but that's the NY area.
 

jaytftwofive

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I haven't seen the documentary yet, but Krause to me always got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure on him wanting to blow up the Bulls after the 98 season, but the guy was a damn good general manager. People chalk up his success as just being fortunate enough to have Jordan, but plenty of generational talents have had their championship parades canceled by being saddled with terrible supporting casts. Drafting Scottie Pippen is one of the greatest draft steals in NBA history, and he was able to consistently to get capable role players and accomplished veterans to fill out the roster. Again, having MJ makes it easier to lure those players over, but we have seen plenty of situations were just having a star player isn't enough. He also deserves credit for bringing in Phil Jackson as the head coach, who at the time was viewed as an outcast and an unconventional thinker who could never be a head coach in the NBA.

When you think about the great NBA dynasties, the figures who ran those teams, Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Greg Popovich, are all seen as just brilliant basketball minds; the smartest men to ever work in basketball, even while they all benefited from transcendent basketball talents leading their teams. . Krause is a fat loser who rode Jordan's coattails to six championships.

Jordan relentlessly bullied Krause and always made him the villain, in a way that would be very uncomfortable if it happened in 2020. Jordan always held a grudge against Krause for trading away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. I've read a few Jordan books, and one thing is clear (as Charlotte Hornet fans now know) is that Jordan has no idea how to run a good basketball team. When he was with the Bulls he basically just wanted them to draft Carolina guys.
I had never heard that till I watched the show that Jordan held a grudge against Krause for trading away Oakley for Cartwright. At the time of the trade I thought it definitely favored the Knicks but as it turned out it was a trade that helped both teams and the Bulls needed a center so it helped them win a few titles. i don't see why Jordan didn't see that. Crazy grudge.
 

Marbleheader

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I find the Bulls run terribly uninteresting. Maybe I was spoiled growing up with Bird and Magic trading off titles. There was not a lot of suspense in those Finals. No 7th games. Jordan was an immense talent, but I lost a lot of interest in the NBA during the 90s.
 

Euclis20

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I find the Bulls run terribly uninteresting. Maybe I was spoiled growing up with Bird and Magic trading off titles. There was not a lot of suspense in those Finals. No 7th games. Jordan was an immense talent, but I lost a lot of interest in the NBA during the 90s.
Ditto, but I'm still enjoying this documentary quite a bit. I'm sure at least 25% of that is the hope that something similar will be done for the Pats in 20 years, but at least so far it's very well done.
 

jaytftwofive

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I'm 62 and I think the 96 Bulls and some of other of those teams, 97, 92 were as good as any teams I've seen in NBA history. I would choose the 96 Bulls as the best team I've seen in my lifetime and I've seen many. 86 Celtics, 87 Lakers, the Spurs teams, the Warriors, the Russell Celtic teams and others.
 

bankshot1

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Unfortunately for MJ and the Bulls their toughest rival was the Pistons, who routinely kicked their ass in the post-season. After old man time took out the Pistons and Lakers their toughest rival was the Knicks. The fucking Knicks. And they sucked at basketball.
 

johnmd20

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Unfortunately for MJ and the Bulls their toughest rival was the Pistons, who routinely kicked their ass in the post-season. After old man time took out the Pistons and Lakers their toughest rival was the Knicks. The fucking Knicks. And they sucked at basketball.
The Knicks in the 90s didn't suck. That's utter nonsense. There will a lot of great teams in the 90s. Here's the thing, none of them had Michael Jordan.(except for the Bulls, of course)
 

bankshot1

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The Knicks in the 90s didn't suck. That's utter nonsense. There will a lot of great teams in the 90s. Here's the thing, none of them had Michael Jordan.(except for the Bulls, of course)
The Knicks in the 90s were an ultra-physical team that sucked the beauty out of the game. They made it difficult for a life-long hoops fan who lived in Manhattan to watch them play.

There was one great team in the 90s-the Bulls.

There were several in the 80s.

YMMV.

happy motoring
 

jaytftwofive

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Unfortunately for MJ and the Bulls their toughest rival was the Pistons, who routinely kicked their ass in the post-season. After old man time took out the Pistons and Lakers their toughest rival was the Knicks. The fucking Knicks. And they sucked at basketball.
The Pistons had some damn good teams and came so close to winning 3 in row(If Isiah was healthy they probably win in 88) And they should have been to 4 finals in a row if it wasn't for his dumb pass in game 5 in 87 against Celtics. Of course his teammates didn't help either running down toward the other end of the court celebrating and there was only one Piston for him to throw it to, so it all wasn't his fault. And the Knicks with Riley as coach and Ewing and Jackson had some good teams from 92 -98. In 93 many people believe there was a bad call on Charles Smith in Game 5 I believe that changed the series around.(I think it was a one point loss??) Many writers and fans thought if it wasn't for that call, Knicks may have won in 7 and no three peat for Bulls. They went to the finals the next year and lost to Rockets in 7.
 
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Kenny F'ing Powers

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I'm not saying Krause deserves the same amount of credit as Red or Popovich, just that it seems like there is a pretty big gap between how they are thought of and how Krause is thought of. Myers isn't in that class either, but he isn't exactly treated like a punchline either.

I'm not sure how much the Jordan doc goes into his bullying of Krause because I haven't watched it yet, but having read about it in a number of books, it to me is far beyond whatever stuff LeBron pulled.
I wouldnt hold your breath. This footage sat at ESPN for several decades because Jordan had final say on if it ever got released and how it would he shown. I dont think this is going to be an MJ ballwashing, but I doubt we see any situations that place him as a villain.
 

j-man

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If you don’t mind me asking, what was your preferred make-a-wish? Another b-ball player? Someone on the Broncos (you’re a Broncs fan, right?).
my wish was to see a broncos game and meet shanny they just told me to do a backup wish just in case i had no idea i was gonna be in the locker room and the broncos gave me a pass to where i couild go anywhere in the stadium even the owner booth i had no idea about that last part utill i came home but it worked out because i wanted to be in the stands anyway i also stayed at denver team hotel the night before and met around 10 players and as weird as this sounds romokinski was the nicest of them all shanny gave me a copy of his book and like a 500$$ fancy bronco jacket
 

j-man

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When you lose to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 when you are a heavy favorite you don't deserve to be in the conversation with Jordan. When you are also 3-6 in the NBA Finals you can't be on the same level of Jordan.
+1000 BTW l bird is better than LeBron
 

j-man

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Why were the Bulls and Reinsdorf and Einhorn so cheap to the other players besides MJ? That was a gold franchise in the 3rd biggest market. I never liked those 2 particularly Reinsdorf.Not being a homer or paranoid Soxfan but didn't he use to undermine the Red Sox with blocking trades and signings because he was friends with Big Stine??? I think it was in a book maybe Buster Olney's book or some one else? Plus those 2 were both from New York(not Krause). I had also heard Jerry R was jealous of the Red Sox success also. Just wondered if anyone had heard that also. Ok Einhorn was from North Jersey but that's the NY area.
about 23 years ago i was a big white sox fan but what turn me off them was that awful 1997 trade where they gave up 2 of their best pitchers for $$$ when they were only a game back of Cleveland
 

Sam Ray Not

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When you lose to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 when you are a heavy favorite you don't deserve to be in the conversation with Jordan. When you are also 3-6 in the NBA Finals you can't be on the same level of Jordan.
1. Cs close out a 3-2 lead on their home floor in 2012
2. Ray rims out a three in 2013
3. Kyrie rims out a three in 2016

= LeBron has zero rings.
 
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BigSoxFan

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1. Cs close out a 3-2 lead on their home floor in 2012
2. Ray rims out a three in 2014
3. Kyrie rims out a three in 2016

= LeBron has zero rings.
In fairness, in #1 and #3, those turned into LeBron title wins because he went into absolute berserker mode.

45/15/5 and 27/11/11 along with arguably the most iconic and impressive play the NBA has ever seen in an NBA Finals.
 

Sam Ray Not

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In fairness, in #1 and #3, those turned into LeBron title wins because he went into absolute berserker mode.
Oh, totally. For all my ragging on him, I think he has a pretty legitimate case as GOAT when you factor in longevity. I just think it’s interesting how incredibly close is to having just one ring. (Taking away his 2012 ring is somewhat unsporting, given that neither Game 6 nor Game 7 of the 2012 ECF was particularly close, due largely to his being a total badass, as you note).
 

BigSoxFan

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Oh, totally. For all my ragging on him, I think he has a pretty legitimate case as GOAT when you factor in longevity. I just think it’s interesting how incredibly close is to having just one ring. (Taking away his 2012 ring is somewhat unsporting, given that neither Game 6 nor Game 7 of the 2012 ECF was particularly close, due largely to his being a total badass, as you note).
Yup, it certainly is interesting. It doesn’t take much for him to be sitting here at 1-8, which is just nuts. He missed the shot in 2013 and Bosh and Allen just executed an absolute perfect rebound. Also, I think Kawhi missed a FT before that shot that would have likely iced it.

In 2016, do they come back from 3-1 without the Draymond nut tap? We’ll never know but I don’t think so.
 

ElUno20

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Hate the "if this, then that and he doesn't " yeah that's nice. But we live in the world where stuff actually happened and lebron has 3 rings.

Back on the doc, i loved that it gave a peek into the level of excellence Jordan held himself to at all times. All the babies who grew up watching imitations of his competitive drive from the next generation after him got to see how his mind worked.

There are also two really great human moments in the 2nd ep for me. The first is Jordan saying you cant say his name without Scottie. Even if he didnt mean it, just saying those words on what will become the definitive thing to watch about his career was powerful.

And the 2nd is Scottie talking about his disabled dad and brother. The producer or interviewer was trying to formulate the question respectfully and they just both arrived at "so you had 2..in your house growing up". The look on his face, you could just see the years of struggle on his face and from where he came from to win 6. I thought it was strong.


All in all, just happy the newer generation of NBA fans get to see this.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Hate the "if this, then that and he doesn't " yeah that's nice. But we live in the world where stuff actually happened and lebron has 3 rings.
We live in a world in which Mets 1986, Red Sox 2004, NY Giants 2008, Pats 2015 and 2017 (etc.) happened. You can notch all those down as championships like any other, but it’s also fun/painful/interesting (for me) to ponder how close they were to not happening.

The fact that none of Jordan’s titles required seven games — let alone being one late shot away from not happening — is often used to cement his case as GOAT. I think it’s a pretty reasonable thing to consider, as long as we’re counting rings. YMMV.
 

lovegtm

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1. Cs close out a 3-2 lead on their home floor in 2012
2. Ray rims out a three in 2013
3. Kyrie rims out a three in 2016

= LeBron has zero rings.
Yup, he's very lucky in a lot of ways to have the ones he got.

On the other hand, by the same logic, and with fewer ifs:
1. Kyrie and Love are healthy in 2015, Dubs have to play a non-skeleton team
2. OKC doesn't pull a historic choke job in 2016

= Steph and co. have zero rings

The crazy thing with the Bulls (who I HATED as a kid) is that most of the hypotheticals go the other way, with Jordan not retiring, or Krause keeping the band together longer. They legit could have won 8 titles in a row, which is almost unfathomable. Being able to have prime Pippen and Jordan together is the biggest cheat code in history--you make no tradeoffs on either end, and it's way easier to find the other fitting pieces.
 

lovegtm

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Last Dance sent me down a boredom rabbit-hole of watching 90s basketball.

It's really crazy how much more legible the game is. The illegal defense rule itself was complicated, but it created a game that had very easy-to-digest on-ball and off-ball actions.

I strongly prefer the modern product, but I can see why a fan of the 80s or 90s could have a hard time "getting" today's game--you often can't fully get what just happened without a replay, because of the amount going on at once, especially off-ball.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Jul 19, 2005
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On the other hand, by the same logic, and with fewer ifs:
1. Kyrie and Love are healthy in 2015, Dubs have to play a non-skeleton team
2. OKC doesn't pull a historic choke job in 2016

= Steph and co. have zero rings
Lol, solid troll job, but that’s not even a little bit the same logic. Sorry for the digression, but if you’ll indulge...

1. The Warriors were the much better team than the Cavs in 2014-15 (+10.4 to +5.4 SRS). The Cavs eked out two close wins early in that series by turning the games into defensive slogs, with both both Steph and Klay still possibly suffering from concussions at the hands of Ariza in the WCF. After Game 3, with the small lineup tweak of Iguodala in the starting 5, the Warriors blew the Cavs off the floor in three straight.

I know how much we all cherish the winning ways of Mr. Chemistry, and how much we all want to add the lockdown defense of Kevin Love to our respective teams, but the most charitable assessment of that series for CLE is that we have no idea how it would have played out if Love and Kyrie (two offensive phenoms who were also their two worst defenders) had been healthy. Occam’s razor is that the team that put up nearly double the net rating in the tougher conference was the significantly better team. Asserting the Cavs win that series with Kyrie and Love as if its comparable to “Spurs win in 2013 if not for Ray’s shot” is pretty unsporting, imo.

2. If we’re going to play “butterfly flaps its wings” with 2016, we can pretty much make any point. Here, I’ll take away all the Pats’ Super Bowls in even fewer steps: (1) someone takes Brady off the board before #199 in 2000. Or in a more related vein: how many rings do Jordan and Bird win if their front offices are not able to swing draft day trades for Pippen and McHale/Parish?

As noted in the other thread, the Warriors had arguably the best five-year run in NBA history from 2014-19, so it’s a little unsporting to deprive them all their ‘chips in that span. They went 322-88 in that run (.785), 77-28 in the playoffs (.743), 14-2 in playoff series, 16-1 in the 2017 playoffs. Interestingly, none of LeBron’s team were that close to them any of those years, statistically anyway. The toughest team in that span was probably the 2015-16 Thunder (so says Iguodala, anyway); and the closest teams to them statistically were the 2015-16 Spurs, 2017-18 Rockets, and 2018-19 Bucks. But I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say the Warriors were the best team in each of those five seasons.

The interesting “other way” hypothetical you applied to the Bulls can actually be applied pretty easily Kerr Warriors: if they hadn’t succumbed to a similar spiritual fatigue to that which befell the Bulls (plus a couple gross injuries) how many titles do they rack up? I don’t think six or seven in a best case is out of the question. Steph, KD, Klay and Draymond are all roughly the ages of the Bulls’ core at the start of their second run of three titles.

TLDR: there may be an alt universe where Steve Kerr has 12 or 13 rings — with 3 or 4 more on their way — instead of a measly eight.
 
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67YAZ

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The Krause-Jordan/Pippen/Phil dynamic was a two way street. It’s bit shitty of the filmmakers to not put up a better defense of Jerry and allowing that dipshit author to spout off about Jerry growing up a poor fat kid. Jerry had an ego to match any star athlete. I mean, he’s in the White Sox scouting department and has the balls to ask to run the Bulls! There was a lot of self-regard stuffed into that organization, inflated larger with every championship, so it’s no surprise sparks were flying.

Krause was great at his job. He rotated the 90s roster like an absolute maestro and he did a really nice job restocking the roster post-Jordan. If Jay Williams doesn’t crash his atv and Krause picks anyone...Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy...over Eddy Curry...

It’s on Reinsdorf. He has always been too hands off with his teams (see how long it has taken to move on from Paxon & Foreman). Reinsdorf should have been more involved brokering good working relationships among the titanic egos that made those Bulls teams. He should have broken his “no extensions” rule for Pippen in 1997.

Also, it always kills me how vapid Phil Jackson is. “We created an image people wanted to be a part of, and that’s all you can really do.” Is that a brilliant Zen insight or some postmodern cynicism or some capitalist branding mumbojumbo? Phil’s genius is getting the most out of other geniuses - Tex Winter, Michael, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq. But he’s not nearly as profound as he thinks he is.
 
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InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
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This has been pretty good TV. I'm in for 10 parts.
I came around to this after watching the first 2 last night. I thought it would just be about 97-98, and, like, I know how that ended. But it's a retrospective on the whole Jordan era, tying past and present together, and brilliantly edited. I was way more impressed than I had expected to be, and it's just FUN to watch. I laughed like a dozen times and episode and that's pretty hard to do with a documentary.
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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It seems like it is not possible to watch last night's episodes legally in the US at this point, is that right? I need to set my DVR for the rest of the series.
FYI, I watched them by looking them up on Xfinity's streaming platform, they're available on-demand there. No telling for how long though.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
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Pittsburgh, PA
When you lose to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 when you are a heavy favorite you don't deserve to be in the conversation with Jordan. When you are also 3-6 in the NBA Finals you can't be on the same level of Jordan.
This is like Tom Brady vs Joe Montana. You're awarding greater credit to losing before the Finals than you are to making it to the Finals and then losing to the champs. Jordan went 6-0 in the Finals but failed to make it there on another 7 occasions. Montana went 4-0 in super bowls, but had plenty of other uglier, earlier losses.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
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Sep 20, 2005
8,091
The Krause-Jordan/Pippen/Phil dynamic was a two way street. It’s bit shitty of the filmmakers to not put up a better defense of Jerry and allowing that dipshit author to spout off about Jerry growing up a poor fat kid. Jerry had an ego to match any star athlete. I mean, he’s in the White Sox scouting department and has the balls to ask to run the Bulls! There was a lot of self-regard stuffed into that organization, inflated larger with every championship, so it’s no surprise sparks were flying.

Krause was great at his job. He rotated the 90s roster like an absolute maestro and he did a really nice job restocking the roster post-Jordan. If Jay Williams doesn’t crash his atv and Krause picks anyone...Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy...over Eddy Curry...

It’s on Reinsdorf. He has always been too hands off with his teams (see how long it has taken to move on from Paxon & Foreman). Reinsdorf should have been more involved brokering good working relationships among the titanic egos that made those Bulls teams. He should have broken his “no extensions” rule for Pippen in 1997.

Also, it always kills me how vapid Phil Jackson is. “We created an image people wanted to be a part of, and that’s all you can really do.” Is that a brilliant Zen insight or some postmodern cynicism or some capitalist branding mumbojumbo? Phil’s genius is getting the most out of other geniuses - Tex Winter, Michael, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq. But he’s not nearly as profound as he thinks he is.

Krause did a great job building the cast around Jordan. But that team had more championships left in them, or at least an excellent shot as more championships. Deciding to blow it up in the name of getting a head start on rebuilding was unpardonable.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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This conversation - especially now that Joe Montana's name has been brought in - gets me thinking. Rank in order which player affects his team's chances more:

1. NFL - QB
2. MLB - starting pitcher
3. NHL - goalie
4. NBA - star player (position may not matter as much as long as you're great)