The Los Angeles City Council voted unanimously to ask the commissioner of baseball to award the Dodgers the 2017 and 2018 World Series titles

soxhop411

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The LA city council is going full New Orleans. And you never want to go full New Orleans.
The Los Angeles City Council is expected to vote within the next week on a resolution urging Major League Baseball to recall the championship trophies presented to the Houston Astros in 2017 and the Boston Red Sox in 2018 “and award them to the Los Angeles Dodgers.”

Councilman Gil Cedillo, one of the sponsors of the resolution, said he expects the council to approve it. As of late Wednesday, the city clerk had not yet determined what day the resolution would come up for a vote.

Cedillo, whose district includes Dodger Stadium, said neither the Dodgers nor his constituents had requested the resolution.

“This is an equity and justice thing,” Cedillo said. “Who was the best team in 2017? Who was the best team in 2018? It was the Dodgers. They got beat by teams that were cheating.

“Do they need to be told that they shouldn’t have a title?”
The Dodgers lost to the Astros in the 2017 World Series and to the Red Sox in the 2018 World Series. If Cedillo believes the Dodgers were the rightful champions, would he support using city funds to stage a parade to commemorate those championships?
“I don’t know. That’s a different question,” he said. “I am focused right now on the Dodgers and the Dodgers fans getting justice. The mere acknowledgment is so significant. There has to be an acknowledgment the best team in baseball those two years was the Dodgers.”

Cedillo said the Dodgers, and the people of Los Angeles, were robbed of what they deserved. He said he was not worried about critics that might dismiss his resolution as a publicity stunt
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-01-15/los-angeles-city-council-vote-mlb-award-dodgers-championship-trophies?_amp=true
 

InstaFace

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I actually have a little sympathy for 2017, as that was a 7-game series where Houston's two home victories were fairly close affairs (one of them went 13 innings). And as best I can tell, the MLB monitors were not yet monitoring the replay screens. I'm not sure I'd vote in their favor if I were on Manfred's jedi council, but I can forgive at least a little whining.

In 2018 the Dodgers lost 4 out of 5 games, including 2/3 at home, and the only one they won took 18 innings and was a pyrrhic victory that basically left their pitching staff a smoking husk, while ours was relatively pristine thanks to Eovaldi. Plus there were hall monitors from MLB watching the video replay booth. If they think the Red Sox cheated them out of a title, I'm gonna need more receipts than what's been reported - and for the postseason specifically.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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I actually have a little sympathy for 2017, as that was a 7-game series where Houston's two home victories were fairly close affairs (one of them went 13 innings). And as best I can tell, the MLB monitors were not yet monitoring the replay screens. I'm not sure I'd vote in their favor if I were on Manfred's jedi council, but I can forgive at least a little whining.

In 2018 the Dodgers lost 4 out of 5 games, including 2/3 at home, and the only one they won took 18 innings and was a pyrrhic victory that basically left their pitching staff a smoking husk, while ours was relatively pristine thanks to Eovaldi. Plus there were hall monitors from MLB watching the video replay booth. If they think the Red Sox cheated them out of a title, I'm gonna need more receipts than what's been reported - and for the postseason specifically.
The Astros home/road splits in the 2017 playoffs were pretty significant. I havent seen the Sox postseason numbers for 2018, but the regular season splits are not anything close to this pronounced.

28064
 

InstaFace

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Right. It's not quite to the point where you'd want to set a precedent and make a first-ever vacating of a title in the ~150 years of pro baseball... but like Chris Rock said of OJ, I understand.
 

BaseballJones

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Why should the Dodgers be awarded the title? I mean, in 2017, the Astros cheated their whole division, plus the Red Sox (where they uncharacteristically jumped all over Chris Sale at home) and Yankees (in a thrilling 7-game series in which the home team won every game) in the AL playoffs. How do we know that the Red Sox or Yankees wouldn't have kicked the Dodgers' asses in the World Series? The Dodgers weren't the only team to be cheated by the Astros.

In that 2017 ALCS, the Astros outscored the Yankees 15-3 in Houston, but the Yankees outscored the Astros 19-5 in New York.

Ahem.
 

Bergs

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This kinda shit was utterly predictable after the draconian punishments handed down actually made the crimes look worse than they were. Manfred really Goodelled the fuck out of this situation. I had thought MLB was smarter than this; I was clearly wrong.
 

BaseballJones

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The Astros home/road splits in the 2017 playoffs were pretty significant. I havent seen the Sox postseason numbers for 2018, but the regular season splits are not anything close to this pronounced.
2018 Red Sox postseason
Home records by series: 1-1, 1-1, 2-0 (4-2 total)
Road records by series: 2-0, 3-0, 2-1 (7-1 total)

Home game scores: 5-4, 2-6, 2-7, 7-5, 8-4, 4-2 (28 runs scored, 28 runs allowed)
Road game scores: 16-1, 4-3, 8-2, 8-6, 4-1, 2-3, 9-6, 5-1 (56 runs scored, 23 runs allowed)

The 2018 Red Sox fared MUCH better on the road in the postseason than they did at home.
 

OurF'ingCity

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This kinda shit was utterly predictable after the draconian punishments handed down actually made the crimes look worse than they were. Manfred really Goodelled the fuck out of this situation. I had thought MLB was smarter than this; I was clearly wrong.
Yup. What MLB should have done (which admittedly would have taken more time) was undertake a league-wide investigation into how pervasive the various sign-stealing practices were. If it's true that numerous teams were using the replay room to steal signs a la what the Sox have been accused of, the report could have said that and still punished the Astros for going a few steps further - in other words, "here is what made the Astros conduct worse than other teams and that is what they are being punished for."

Now we are in the worst of all worlds where fans of teams who lost to the "cheating" teams will claim that those teams' entire success was fraudulent, and fans of the "cheating" teams will point to the significant evidence that everyone was doing this to one degree or another and calling out MLB for focusing on a few specific teams basically only because The Athletic wrote about those teams and not others. It's a shitshow.
 

snowmanny

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Why the Dodgers instead of the Red Sox or Yankees in 2017 and the Yankees or Astros in 2018?
 

stepson_and_toe

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Is there proof that cheating was the reason that the Astros and the Red Sox won the World Series instead of the Dodgers? Is there proof that the Dodgers themselves didn't cheat (but was less successful at it)?
 

The Gray Eagle

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The only way this crybaby stupidity could be funnier would be if a bunch of people on other teams accused the Dodgers of using tech to steal signs and they got busted too.
 

Hoya81

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I hate the vacating titles talk. You could probably vacate half the titles from 1950 onward between admitted/caughtusers of PEDs, greenies and doctored equipment (spitballs, corked bats, scuffing balls etc).
Hell, Drysdale and Hershiser were key components for 4 Dodger teams that won the WS and were alleged to deploy spitballs regularly.
 

PedroKsBambino

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If LA is giving back the fraudulent 2010 NBA finals, they can talk abotu these. Until they do, however, this is all silliness.
 

Murderer's Crow

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I almost want to see all of this happen. Give the Dodgers 2 titles. Do they have parades? Do the fans celebrate as if they actually won?
 

BaseballJones

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I almost want to see all of this happen. Give the Dodgers 2 titles. Do they have parades? Do the fans celebrate as if they actually won?
Heh, well you wouldn't want to see it if your team was one of the ones who had a title taken away. But to your larger point, yes that would be pretty hilarious. "Yay, we didn't really win, but we kind of won by court ruling so...yay, celebrate...I guess?"
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I hate the vacating titles talk. You could probably vacate half the titles from 1950 onward between admitted/caughtusers of PEDs, greenies and doctored equipment (spitballs, corked bats, scuffing balls etc).
Hell, Drysdale and Hershiser were key components for 4 Dodger teams that won the WS and were alleged to deploy spitballs regularly.
Koufax and Drysdale pitched at a time when Dodgers Stadium had an illegally high pitchers mound, and they (especially Koufax) had pronounced home/road splits during that time. Such cheating is not really cared about or mentioned when listing Koufax as among the greatest pitchers of all time. Pretty sure LA won’t be asking MLB to invalidate their titles from those days.
 

NYCSox

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I hate the vacating titles talk. You could probably vacate half the titles from 1950 onward between admitted/caughtusers of PEDs, greenies and doctored equipment (spitballs, corked bats, scuffing balls etc).
Hell, Drysdale and Hershiser were key components for 4 Dodger teams that won the WS and were alleged to deploy spitballs regularly.
You can add colluding with another MLB franchise to funnel players to the Yankees.
 

8slim

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Koufax and Drysdale pitched at a time when Dodgers Stadium had an illegally high pitchers mound, and they (especially Koufax) had pronounced home/road splits during that time. Such cheating is not really cared about or mentioned when listing Koufax as among the greatest pitchers of all time. Pretty sure LA won’t be asking MLB to invalidate their titles from those days.
This is an example of one of the few things that really gets under my skin. Some people love to yuck it up about rule-breaking from "'back in the day". But when similar things happen in the here-and-now, many of the same people rant like its a stain on the very fabric of humanity. Makes me nuts.
 

johnmd20

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People are so stupid. It's hard to consider any other possibility as to why so many weird, sad, and ridiculous things are happening in all walks of life. This is absolutely insane. This is New Orleans but worse, because it was over two years ago.

People are just stupid and nobody can deal with a bad result, even if that result was marginally unfair.

The politicians in Los Angeles literally sat down and worked on a something, asking a sports league to award their team a title they didn't win. Hey politicians, maybe tackle the very sticky real estate situation in LA and the homeless problem first, kay?
 

Bosoxen

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This is an example of one of the few things that really gets under my skin. Some people love to yuck it up about rule-breaking from "'back in the day". But when similar things happen in the here-and-now, many of the same people rant like its a stain on the very fabric of humanity. Makes me nuts.
This, right here, pretty much sums up why I canceled my MLB.TV subscription. Thanks to the ever-increasing availability of college baseball, I can get my baseball fix that way this spring and summer. MLB and the "right way" (like that means anything) crowd can go screw.

The righteous indignation is one thing. But for it to come from a league that saw dwindling TV numbers and decided to goose offensive output by juicing baseballs and breaking the game is just too much for me. Integrity of the game, my ass.
 

snowmanny

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If LA is giving back the fraudulent 2010 NBA finals, they can talk abotu these. Until they do, however, this is all silliness.
This isn't the NCAA. No titles will ever be vacated in pro sports.

But I'd gladly give them one title of they surrender the title the Lakers won when Donaghy, et al, screwed the Kings that one year.
2010, 2002, and I'd throw in 1988 for three straight rounds of crap.
 

stepson_and_toe

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Koufax and Drysdale pitched at a time when Dodgers Stadium had an illegally high pitchers mound, and they (especially Koufax) had pronounced home/road splits during that time. Such cheating is not really cared about or mentioned when listing Koufax as among the greatest pitchers of all time. Pretty sure LA won’t be asking MLB to invalidate their titles from those days.
There may have been a law since 1904 governing the maximum mound height but there were no enforcement policies. And even after the 15" limit was imposed, the shape of mounds from park to park wasn't constant: you could have a slope that was basically a straight line or one with a sharp drop-off, or something in between. If your team had short pitchers, you could keep the slope level for the reach of their stride, then have it drop off. If your opponent had taller pitchers, longer stride, they would have a sharp dro[-off.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Bill Plaschke, the Dan Shaughnessy of Los Angeles, started all of this. Dodgers fans need something to excuse their postseason failures. It’s the Astros fault Kershaw has a losing record in the postseason, or Kenley Jansen is a choking dog.
 

Marciano490

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I almost want to see all of this happen. Give the Dodgers 2 titles. Do they have parades? Do the fans celebrate as if they actually won?
Reminds me of some documentary I saw awhile back about doping at the Olympics. A US swimmer came in second to a West Getman who was later nabbed for steroids, so they eventually gave the gold medal to the American.

The whole thing was kind of sad. She got the medal but was still robbed of her moment.
 

bosockboy

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I actually have a little sympathy for 2017, as that was a 7-game series where Houston's two home victories were fairly close affairs (one of them went 13 innings). And as best I can tell, the MLB monitors were not yet monitoring the replay screens. I'm not sure I'd vote in their favor if I were on Manfred's jedi council, but I can forgive at least a little whining.

In 2018 the Dodgers lost 4 out of 5 games, including 2/3 at home, and the only one they won took 18 innings and was a pyrrhic victory that basically left their pitching staff a smoking husk, while ours was relatively pristine thanks to Eovaldi. Plus there were hall monitors from MLB watching the video replay booth. If they think the Red Sox cheated them out of a title, I'm gonna need more receipts than what's been reported - and for the postseason specifically.
And we sweep them in 4 if Kinsler can throw a ball to 1B.
 

soxhop411

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Updates from this week:
The Los Angeles City Council voted unanimously Tuesday to ask the commissioner of baseball to award the Dodgers the 2017 and 2018 World Series titles

Manfred tells LA city council to cut it out
Major League Baseball has no plans to strip recent World Series titles from the Houston Astros or Boston Red Sox, according to commissioner Rob Manfred.

In his first public interview since announcing historic penalties for the Astros last week, Manfred told Fox Business Network that MLB will honor the "long tradition in baseball of not trying to change what happened.

"I think the answer from our perspective is to be transparent about what the investigation showed and let our fans make their own decision about what happened," Manfred said Wednesday.
We haven't concluded our investigation with the Red Sox," Manfred said. "So it's a little hard to take the trophy away from somebody who hasn't yet been found to do something wrong. We don't know what the outcome of that's going to be."
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28537712/mlb-no-plans-strip-astros-red-sox-world-series-titles-says-commissioner-rob-manfred?platform=amp
 

The Gray Eagle

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This is an example of one of the few things that really gets under my skin. Some people love to yuck it up about rule-breaking from "'back in the day". But when similar things happen in the here-and-now, many of the same people rant like its a stain on the very fabric of humanity. Makes me nuts.
100% agreed. There was so much rule breaking back in the hallowed innocent days when everyone "played the game the right way." Players did everything they could possibly get away with, that is how baseball has always been.

And the "cheating" of the past is always laughed off by people who are so full of righteous indignation about "cheating" today. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame but Barry Bonds isn't, because Bonds cheated. Yeah Perry wrote a book about how he was cheating while he was still playing. Ha-ha, that was funny! Put good ole Gaylerd in the hall but keep out those dirty CHEATERS to protect the sacred integrity of the game!
 

OurF'ingCity

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And the "cheating" of the past is always laughed off by people who are so full of righteous indignation about "cheating" today. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame but Barry Bonds isn't, because Bonds cheated. Yeah Perry wrote a book about how he was cheating while he was still playing. Ha-ha, that was funny! Put good ole Gaylerd in the hall but keep out those dirty CHEATERS to protect the sacred integrity of the game!
And we are already starting to move that way with regard to PEDs - in another generation the PED outcry will likely be looked on with a mixture of regret, humor, and confusion, and then there will be some new scandal that everyone gets high and mighty about. Which is not to say that it's not a good thing that MLB drummed out the spitball and rampant PED use, but it is to say that each new cheating scandal should be looked at as a natural evolution of the game and something that should be considered as part of baseball's continuum, rather than as something that is uniquely bad and destructive to the game. (Sign-stealing is a perfect example - it's something that has occurred since, presumably, the very origins of baseball but has taken on new importance given technological advancements and rule changes.)
 

The Gray Eagle

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And we are already starting to move that way with regard to PEDs - in another generation the PED outcry will likely be looked on with a mixture of regret, humor, and confusion, and then there will be some new scandal that everyone gets high and mighty about. Which is not to say that it's not a good thing that MLB drummed out the spitball and rampant PED use, but it is to say that each new cheating scandal should be looked at as a natural evolution of the game and something that should be considered as part of baseball's continuum, rather than as something that is uniquely bad and destructive to the game. (Sign-stealing is a perfect example - it's something that has occurred since, presumably, the very origins of baseball but has taken on new importance given technological advancements and rule changes.)
Great post. I'm currently reading The Cheater's Guide to Baseball by Derek Zumsteg, which is pretty revealing.
View: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PPH39XI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


It's where I learned about the first known attempt to use technology to steal signs and relay the info. It was back at the turn of the century-- 1900, not 2000.

This article from 2017 explains it in detail:
https://sports.yahoo.com/shocking-history-sign-stealing-baseball-053859138.html
Around the league, everyone noticed the twitch in Pearce Chiles’ leg. It was odd enough that Chiles, the third-base coach for the Philadelphia Phillies, convulsed only at the team’s home park, Baker Bowl, where he stood in the same spot, atop a puddle in the coach’s box that was there even when it didn’t rain. On Sept. 17, 1900, in the first game of a doubleheader, Cincinnati Reds shortstop Tommy Corcoran tired of the tic and decided to do something about it.

Corcoran scurried toward Chiles and started kicking at the ground, harder and harder, enough that the livid Phillies’ groundskeeper told him to stop. Corcoran didn’t, and eventually he hit paydirt: a wooden box. He pulled the top off it and found a mess of wires. His suspicions were dead-on: Someone in the stadium was stealing opponents’ signals and feeding them to Chiles through electrical pulses into the box. One buzz for a fastball, two jolts for a curveball, three twitches for a changeup. Chiles then verbally fed the pitch to the batter...

The entire charade is patently absurd. Almost every team in baseball blurs the line of cheating on a daily basis, executives, coaches and assorted major league personnel told Yahoo Sports on Tuesday. Devices like cell phones and Apple Watches are not allowed in dugouts … and iPads are, because MLB partnered with Apple to allow them as a replacement for managers’ information-stuffed binders. Meanwhile, teams position replay monitors mere feet outside of the dugout – legally – and can gain every bit the advantage Boston sought.

“Everyone can have a phone or TV right behind the dugout, two steps away,” one general manager said. “And everyone does.”
 

brandonchristensen

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I really hate that the Sox are now considered in the same breath as the Astros.
Astros are lucky as fuck that things went the way they did. They’re not owning this alone, they somehow got the Red Sox attaches to them.

No one says Astros cheated. It’s always Astros and Red Sox cheated.

If/when Manfred comes out with the truth and it’s not that bad, everyone will just assume he doesn’t want to further damage the game and wants to move on. Sox are stuck with this.
 

InstaFace

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100% agreed. There was so much rule breaking back in the hallowed innocent days when everyone "played the game the right way." Players did everything they could possibly get away with, that is how baseball has always been.

And the "cheating" of the past is always laughed off by people who are so full of righteous indignation about "cheating" today. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame but Barry Bonds isn't, because Bonds cheated. Yeah Perry wrote a book about how he was cheating while he was still playing. Ha-ha, that was funny! Put good ole Gaylerd in the hall but keep out those dirty CHEATERS to protect the sacred integrity of the game!
I'm no fan of the righteous indignation, and I support PED users getting into the Hall. But it seems perfectly consistent to me to draw a distinction between actions where the cheating was limited to the game and the team's coordinated attempts to win the game, vs players poisoning their bodies to gain greater riches and creating an environment where everyone felt pressure to poison their own bodies and lessen their own lifespans just so they could keep up. The former is in service of the team's goals (where the injured party is the opponent who usually has countermeasures available), whereas the latter in service of individual goals (and the injured party is every clean player in baseball).

I don't think it's hard to distinguish the categories of behavior, just like we've easily drawn a distinction between PED-related cheating in the 90s-00s and the scandal-du-jour of sign-stealing. Anyone who thinks the game was clean (or even clean-ER) in the golden days is a nostalgic dupe, but I very much get why some people consider PEDs to be worse than the rest of it.