The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

Mooch

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Obviously waiting for the docs to weigh in here but if the ankle is injured to the point that “many people” would get surgery, it suggests that there’s a good chance that it wouldn’t heal on it’s own. Why take a risk when the team will likely be well out of the playoff race when he’s even close to coming back? At this point, why not just have the surgery and punt until next year?
 

slamminsammya

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Yes he had the one that could/should have been an INT, but, well, it wasn't. So on the three picks, they were all downfield throws, which makes sense. The more you throw deep stuff, the more likely it is for inaccuracy.
Not all incompletions or interceptions can be equated with "inaccuracy". I think most people myself included are concerned with where he decided to go with the ball rather than erratic ball placement. There is a difference between trying to stick the ball somewhere it shouldn't go and making a good choice but botching the actual throw.
 

Granite Sox

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The very first question Mac was asked related to the tightrope procedure he commented on a couple years ago at Alabama and whether it was under consideration now. He responded by saying he was taking it day-by-day, and referred all other injury questions to Coach Bill. Then the media proceeded to ask him about his injury for the next half dozen or so questions. The day-by-day response was clearly disingenuous in response to the persistent questioning after he directed reporters to ask Belichick.

It drives me crazy when everyone knows how this line of questioning will go and then the media just runs over the cliff like lemmings. There’s absolutely nothing productive about it for anyone.
 

BaseballJones

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But it's a dumb argument to just throw out any guy who improved without context. Josh Allen was maybe the worst high volume rookie QB ever, he also was a physical freak and took a huge step forward year 2. Context matters.... why did those guys struggle early and improve, what did their trajectory look like... did it happen in the last 10-15 years.

Listen if people say "there is zero chance Jones improves" yeah that's too far, but... most people AREN'T saying that, they are saying that QBs with the profile Jones has have not in recent years seen the kind of major improvements year over year that the QBs with big time arms or athleticism do, so comparing him to guys with big time athletic/arm traits, or who started their career 20+ years ago when the league was very different, isn't useful. Context matters, and it's a lot easier to project growth for guys with elite physical traits.


Yeah, though worth noting his last 3 weeks dropped him to 7th on that list puts him in the Teddy B, Burrow, Minshew grouping.
Well then there are no real comps for Mac, because: (1) he had a better rookie season than the vast majority of QBs ever do, and (2) he doesn't have the same set of physical tools as many/most of the really successful QBs.

So who, really, is "like" Mac Jones? Nobody.

I mean, Joe Burrow is kinda close, right? Similar physical tool profile. Both came from mega powerhouse programs in the SEC. Both won the national championship with absolutely mind-boggling seasons at QB.

Burrow had a really good leap from year one to year two, but that was aided by having absolutely elite skill position players around him. And even then, it took him a while to really become JOE BURROW.

His first 12 games last year: 68.3% comp, 3,135 yds, 261.3 yds/g, 8.3 y/a, 23 td, 14 int, 98.3 rating
His last 4 games of the year (skipped week 17): 75.9% comp, 1,476 yds, 369.0 yds/g, 10.5 y/a, 11 td, 0 int, 134.9 rating

I mean he was good the first 12 games, with definitely some excellent games in there, but 98.3 rating is solid, not phenomenal. But holy cow those last four games...unreal.

This year, by the way: 64.0% comp, 812 yds, 270.7 yds/g, 6 td, 4 int, 85.1 rating - that rating is similar to his rookie year, not year 2.

Regression by Burrow? Looks like it through three games. I'm not saying Mac is as good, or better than, Burrow. I'm saying that Burrow must be the most apt comp for Mac, and he's experiencing regression in year 3, playing with incredible skill position guys around him. Mac is showing regression in year 2 with worse skill position players around him.

The point: progress isn't linear.
 

Ferm Sheller

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The very first question Mac was asked related to the tightrope procedure he commented on a couple years ago at Alabama and whether it was under consideration now. He responded by saying he was taking it day-by-day, and referred all other injury questions to Coach Bill. Then the media proceeded to ask him about his injury for the next half dozen or so questions. The day-by-day response was clearly disingenuous in response to the persistent questioning after he directed reporters to ask Belichick.

It drives me crazy when everyone knows how this line of questioning will go and then the media just runs over the cliff like lemmings. There’s absolutely nothing productive about it for anyone.
Right, they do it to attract clicks and eyeballs. My immediate reaction when I saw Kyed's tweet above is that Mac couldn't have meant that he expected his ankle to recover sometime soon when he said that he's taking it "day-to-day".

Kyed's sentence "Says injury is a "day-to-day thing" probably reflects an accurate quote, but Kyed has to know that some/many readers are likely to interpret that statement as meaning that Mac thinks that the injury isn't particularly serious and therefore that he'll be back sometime very soon.
 

Jimbodandy

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I'm not saying it's nefarious, I'm saying it's a bad and dumb way to make comparisons to look for the outcome you want then try to fit it into a comp rather than picking the players who were similar at the start (and maybe through a year or two) and seeing where they end up.
You said that people are "trolling" and (repeated here) that people are looking for examples that meet their preordained conclusions. That would be nefarious, posting in bad faith.

I'm saying that's bullshit. People are recalling QBs that they remember who started like shit and got better. You want to say that there's some selection bias and optimism going on, that's fine (and probably true), but it's crappy to say that folks are looking for exceptions to back their conclusions.

There are definitely people who have their mind made up on Mac already on both sides. You seem to be one of them. Some people aren't sure yet.
 

Cellar-Door

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Well then there are no real comps for Mac, because: (1) he had a better rookie season than the vast majority of QBs ever do, and (2) he doesn't have the same set of physical tools as many/most of the really successful QBs.

The point: progress isn't linear.
I think that all of the guys Mauf listed are better comps. Burrow was a no doubt #1 pick, and if he came out the year Mac did he still would have been.

I have no issue with the idea that progress isn't linear, I have an issue with trying to argue that by using guys like Allen or guys who started in what was essentially the dead ball era.
And #2 is.... kind of the point? He doesn't have the physical tools of the really successful QBs, but a lot of guys have played QB with something like his tools.... they just didn't become successful enough to stick. Now Mac could stick, some guys with only slightly better tools have, some guys started with better tools and regressed and still stuck, but those are the guys to look at, not the 2 decade ago guys, or the canon armed guys or the great runners.

You said that people are "trolling" and (repeated here) that people are looking for examples that meet their preordained conclusions. That would be nefarious, posting in bad faith.

I'm saying that's bullshit. People are recalling QBs that they remember who started like shit and got better. You want to say that there's some selection bias and optimism going on, that's fine (and probably true), but it's crappy to say that folks are looking for exceptions to back their conclusions.

There are definitely people who have their mind made up on Mac already on both sides. You seem to be one of them. Some people aren't sure yet.
I don't have my mind made up on Jones, other than that I don't think he'll every be an elite QB. Troll was a mistype of trawl... ie, they look at good QBs and go hunting for ones that fit without any indication of similarity. It's not bad faith per-say, it's just not a good or useful way to analyze anything. It's like saying "I wonder if this guy who hit 15 HRs as a rookie could likely hit 50 HRs in a season.... let me look at players who hit 50 HRs in a season and see if one hit 15 HRs as a rookie, instead of... hey lets look at guys at the same position of similar profile who hit 15 HRs as a rookie and see how many ever hit 50 HRs"

Edit- I will say... anyone referencing guys like Josh Allen are not making good faith arguments though... it's a call to a player who became great through ways Mac Jones has no chance to ever follow, Josh Allen should never be discussed as a comparison for Mac Jones in the same way you wouldn't project Jakobi Meyers by comparing him to Randy Moss, one has gifts and skills the other never will.

Edit- 2 to be more clear... progress isn't linear, but it also isn't a videogame random number generator, it's based on something. In a lot of cases that's a guy marrying his physical tools to an understanding of the game. The better your physical skills, the less you need to improve the other aspects to improve, the worse your physical skills, the more you need to be elite everywhere else. Josh Allen has elite physical skills, he improved a ton year 1 to year 2 and year 2 to year 3, because he started TERRIBLE at everything else, and as he got better, it meshed with his physical skills. Also elite physical skills changes how defenses play, making it easier to improve everywhere else.
 
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EricFeczko

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I think what you're really trying to say is that Kraft is cheap for not buying the team an MRI machine.
MRI's are expensive to build and maintain.

BUT not that expensive for an NFL team (~12 million to purchase -- construction materials/labor is the real cost here, ~1 million/year in maintenance when considering all factors).
 

Jimbodandy

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I think that all of the guys Mauf listed are better comps. Burrow was a no doubt #1 pick, and if he came out the year Mac did he still would have been.

I have no issue with the idea that progress isn't linear, I have an issue with trying to argue that by using guys like Allen or guys who started in what was essentially the dead ball era.
And #2 is.... kind of the point? He doesn't have the physical tools of the really successful QBs, but a lot of guys have played QB with something like his tools.... they just didn't become successful enough to stick. Now Mac could stick, some guys with only slightly better tools have, some guys started with better tools and regressed and still stuck, but those are the guys to look at, not the 2 decade ago guys, or the canon armed guys or the great runners.


I don't have my mind made up on Jones, other than that I don't think he'll every be an elite QB. Troll was a mistype of trawl... ie, they look at good QBs and go hunting for ones that fit without any indication of similarity. It's not bad faith per-say, it's just not a good or useful way to analyze anything. It's like saying "I wonder if this guy who hit 15 HRs as a rookie could likely hit 50 HRs in a season.... let me look at players who hit 50 HRs in a season and see if one hit 15 HRs as a rookie, instead of... hey lets look at guys at the same position of similar profile who hit 15 HRs as a rookie and see how many ever hit 50 HRs"

Edit- I will say... anyone referencing guys like Josh Allen are not making good faith arguments though... it's a call to a player who became great through ways Mac Jones has no chance to ever follow, Josh Allen should never be discussed as a comparison for Mac Jones in the same way you wouldn't project Jakobi Meyers by comparing him to Randy Moss, one has gifts and skills the other never will.
That's fair.

To use a hoop example, you'll compare an athletic 19yo who can't shoot against other young guys who couldn't shoot entering the league. So in Mac’s case, maybe we're better off looking at smart guys from great programs with suboptimal arm strength and modest athleticism. Then limit it to the last ten years or so because eras matter. And then only guys drafted high, because most lower draftees never really got a chance. That's a pretty small list and unlikely to tell us much of anything.
 

BaseballJones

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I think that all of the guys Mauf listed are better comps. Burrow was a no doubt #1 pick, and if he came out the year Mac did he still would have been.

I have no issue with the idea that progress isn't linear, I have an issue with trying to argue that by using guys like Allen or guys who started in what was essentially the dead ball era.
And #2 is.... kind of the point? He doesn't have the physical tools of the really successful QBs, but a lot of guys have played QB with something like his tools.... they just didn't become successful enough to stick. Now Mac could stick, some guys with only slightly better tools have, some guys started with better tools and regressed and still stuck, but those are the guys to look at, not the 2 decade ago guys, or the canon armed guys or the great runners.
Ok if we go by the list of guys Mauf linked to, it would be awesome if Mac had a career like most of those guys.

Wilson - Won a SB, went to another, 9x pro bowler.
Griffin - Was on track to be really good until a catastrophic injury ended things for him.
Mayfield - He's been pretty good but not great. I hope Mac ends up better than him but you could do worse than him.
Prescott - He's had a really nice career so far.
Ryan - Went to the SB, won an MVP. It would be awesome for Mac to have Ryan's career.
Herbert - Better than Mac so far, but he doesn't fit the comparison because he's got a cannon for an arm, right?
Bridgewater - Good athlete at the start of his career, he's been a middling QB.
Burrow - I've gone over him already.
Minshew - My question on him is: Why isn't he getting more of a chance? He played well with Jax.
Wentz - He's had an up and down career...some bad play but also some elite play.
Tannehill - Solid NFL quarterback, especially since going to Tennessee. You can definitely win a lot with that guy.
Newton - Went to a SB and won an MVP. Also...he's not at all like Mac from a tools perspective.
Winston - Also not like Mac. Turnover machine.
Flacco - I mean, he's not great and I know we crap on him here, but the dude won a SB. I think we'd all be happy if Mac had Flacco's career, including a SB title.

Wilson, Prescott, Ryan, Herbert, Burrow, Newton, Tannehill, Flacco - these are all guys who have been successful in the NFL. If Mac ended up like many of them, that would be fantastic.
 

BaseballJones

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That's fair.

To use a hoop example, you'll compare an athletic 19yo who can't shoot against other young guys who couldn't shoot entering the league. So in Mac’s case, maybe we're better off looking at smart guys from great programs with suboptimal arm strength and modest athleticism. Then limit it to the last ten years or so because eras matter. And then only guys drafted high, because most lower draftees never really got a chance. That's a pretty small list and unlikely to tell us much of anything.
Joe Burrow. He's basically the only one who is remotely comparable to Mac in terms of tools, the college success he had, the college program and conference he played in, where he was drafted (15 isn't at all like 1, but it's close enough for a comparison).
 

EricFeczko

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mac's sack rate, which has improved slightly and is close to a top ten rate in the NFL. As a result, his N/YA remains top 5.

Of course that could mean that Mac is getting pressured and making more throwing mistakes (instead of taking a sack), so it should be taken as part of the bigger picture, and Mac's ANY/A remains bottom third and worse than last year (though within normal year-to-year variation). The interceptions should not be discounted -- in three games Mac has thrown over one pick per 20 attempts and thrown a pick every game. This rate is phenomenally bad -- only the bears have a worse rate, and they don't use a real QB.

Of course -- its also three games -- I highly doubt Geno Smith will continue to outperform Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers. For Mac, the injury represents the real threat -- if the worst is true and he misses half a season, he could be set back by quite a bit simply due to the lack of starts/practices/reps.
 

radsoxfan

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MRI's are expensive to build and maintain.

BUT not that expensive for an NFL team (~12 million to purchase -- construction materials/labor is the real cost here, ~1 million/year in maintenance when considering all factors).
Did you mean 1.2 million? Not 12 million. Rule of thumb roughly 1 million for each Tesla and most clinical scanners are 1.5T or 3T.

Obviously expensive though, plus there are a lot of logistical issues with an MRI scanner. You can't just roll it around the locker room.
 

radsoxfan

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Severe high ankle sprain is about what I expected as a relatively good outcome. I'm sure it's unstable and more likely than not he will get some procedure done.

You'll hear about the "tightrope" Tua got a few years ago and was back in 4 weeks. Thats probably the best case scenario, 4-6 week post Tightrope rather than 8-12 weeks typically.
 

EricFeczko

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Did you mean 1.2 million? Not 12 million. Rule of thumb roughly 1 million for each Tesla and most clinical scanners are 1.5T or 3T.

Obviously expensive though, plus there are a lot of logistical issues with an MRI scanner. You can't just roll it around the locker room.
Yeah, I'm factoring in all the logistics -- and I"d shell out for a good zero helium system at 3T -- possibly even 7T if I'm super forward thinking. Even with such a system, the system itself is probably around 2-3 million (I might go with Siemens right now, since they'll be cheaper and make great systems, but I'm super-biased).

I'm assuming they'll have to build the room to house the scanner, which will require both specialized knowledge (since they'll need a faraday cage to ensure MR field homogeneity) and additional construction costs. Its the labor/materials there that's really expensive.
 

Cellar-Door

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Ok if we go by the list of guys Mauf linked to, it would be awesome if Mac had a career like most of those guys.
I meant Mauf's actual list of guys with similar tools/pedigree/draft position below As he notes it's a small list and athleticism is squishy, you could get more if you go deeper into drafts, but then you run into guys who didn't have the skill floor of Jones. And Jones had one of the best starts of all of them, but it might give us a little insight into growth curves.

Overall, it's a tough comp, Mac succeeding isn't unheard of, but being an elite QB or even approaching it would make him the most successful guy on relative athleticism/arm in a long while. Jimmy G is I think a good comp, but I recognize that the pedigree was not the same and that may matter, Cousins is a good physical/college comp, but not draft pedigree.

Looking at guys in the past few 10 years drafted in the 1st round, but not in the first five overall picks, who started for successful P5 teams and weren’t expected to possess high-end athleticism by NFL standards.

Kenny Pickett (2022)
Josh Rosen (2018)
Johnny Manziel (2014)
EJ Manuel (2013)
Ryan Tannehill (2012)
Brandon Weeden (2012)

The athleticism qualifier is squishy — you could argue that Dwayne Haskins belongs on this list (because he arguably wasn’t a super athlete) and Ryan Tannehill doesn’t (because he arguably was). But I think you need that qualifier so that you aren’t comparing Mac to guys like Lamar Jackson and Teddy Bridgewater (who was an amazing athlete before he got hurt).

Mac has already had a better NFL career than all the guys on my list except Tannehill. I’m still more bullish on him than most folks here, but there isn’t a lot of recent precedent for someone like him succeeding.
 

BaseballJones

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Why isn’t Burrow a comp? The scouting report on him coming out of college read Almost exactly like Mac’s. almost identical college pedigree and success. I know Burrow was picked #1 and Mac #15, but their tools and success and college experience was eerily similar.
 
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Cellar-Door

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Why isn’t Burrow a comp? The scouting report on him coming out of college read Almost exactly like Mac’s. almost identical college pedigree and success. I know Burrow was picked #1 and Mac #15, but their tools and success and college experience was eerily similar.
He could be, depends how you want to comp, he was a consensus #1 pick, Jones was the 4th QB in his draft, usually those guys wouldn't be comps, but if we use the broader view and go up and down, yeah you could definitely add Burrow and a bunch of 2nd round guys.
 

doc

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Would playing in a boot slow him down significantly?
Did you mean 1.2 million? Not 12 million. Rule of thumb roughly 1 million for each Tesla and most clinical scanners are 1.5T or 3T.

Obviously expensive though, plus there are a lot of logistical issues with an MRI scanner. You can't just roll it around the locker room.
They give you guys a Tesla when you get an MRI now??
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Why isn’t Burrow a comp? The scouting report on him coming out of college read Almost exactly like Mac’s. almost identical college pedigree and success. I know Burrow was picked #1 and Mac #15, but their tools and success and college experience was eerily similar.
Alas — this criteria, plus Mac’s performance on the field, makes me think we’re watching the next Jason Campbell.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Why isn’t Burrow a comp? The scouting report on him coming out of college read Almost exactly like Mac’s. almost identical college pedigree and success. I know Burrow was picked #1 and Mac #15, but their tools and success and college experience was eerily similar.
Burrows had 23% more completions, and 25% more attempts. He actually had the same amount of completions as Jones did attempts. Oh, and 1,100 more yards. He also had 1/3 more TDs and a TD percentage of 11.3 vs. 10.1. And 350 more yards rushing. I don't think those stats (other than YPC and TD/Int rate) are similar at all.
 

radsoxfan

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If it's severe and unstable, very unlikely he will avoid surgery. Good to get a 2nd opinion though just to be sure. Tightrope COULD have him back close to 4 weeks but that's not assured.

If it's more of a moderate sprain and stable, possible to go for a wait and see approach and be on more of a 6 to 8 week non operative timeline.

They have obviously already skipped ahead to the MRI here so the pathway isn't exact. But the overall theme is the same, if it's not a stable injury then it's not something you wait and let heal on its own in these situations.


TreatmentHighAnkle.jpg
 

nattysez

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When the team is 1-6, some of this urgency may wane. I would always side with the player on these issues. Hope this does not become a thing.
Totally agree.

Seriously, they cannot give Mac a garbage o-line and then expect him to rush his return from injury.
 

rodderick

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Weren't there a lot of rumblings in 2016 the team wasn't happy with Garoppolo losing two games due to his injury at the time as well? I don't know if they'd automatically side with the player and put his interests first and foremost. There was also the whole thing with Gronkowski when his family stepped in to make a joint statement on his health status in 2015 which led to reports about them being unhappy with how the Patriots had managed previous injuries. It wouldn't necessarily be a first.
 

jezza1918

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The night the Ime stuff broke, he quote tweeted an article saying "I bet this is Horford related"

He has fewer sources than you or I.
I think it was Durant actually but doesn’t change your point. He throws a bunch of crap at the wall, most of it to stir the pot for listeners…and some inevitably sticks.
 

NDame616

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I think it was Durant actually but doesn’t change your point. He throws a bunch of crap at the wall, most of it to stir the pot for listeners…and some inevitably sticks.
Duh. Fixed. Coffee hadn't kicked in...

Basically he will throw a bunch of speculated rumors and say he has sources.
 

cshea

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Feels like a regurgitation of the F&M hot take that the Pats were pissed Jimmy G didn't play that game against Houston with the sprained AC joint or whatever it was.
 

Bergs

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Why isn’t Burrow a comp? The scouting report on him coming out of college read Almost exactly like Mac’s. almost identical college pedigree and success. I know Burrow was picked #1 and Mac #15, but their tools and success and college experience was eerily similar.
Did you watch these guys in college?
 

Cellar-Door

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Totally agree.

Seriously, they cannot give Mac a garbage o-line and then expect him to rush his return from injury.
They have a perfectly fine O-line. This ain't the Giants, or even the Bengals out there. I don't think they should rush his return because I don't think this team gets to the playoffs with a less than 100% Mac Jones, especially the Mac we've seen so far this year. Let him rest, lose some games, bring him back 100% and see what you have.
 

E5 Yaz

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The question about when to return would also hinge on the chances of the injury becoming significantly worse. He's already not the most mobile guy, unless a lane opens.
 

rodderick

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Feels like a regurgitation of the F&M hot take that the Pats were pissed Jimmy G didn't play that game against Houston with the sprained AC joint or whatever it was.
Martellus Bennet called him a bitch and Edelman agreed with the sentiment so my guess is internally the Pats were pissed Jimmy G wasn't on the field.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I'm having a hard time understanding why Mac and the team might be on different pages for his treatment/return schedule. The Pats are barely in the discussion for a wild card spot and have no realistic chance at a championship this year, and rushing him back with limitations runs the risk of hampering his development and/or giving you lousy information about how well he's coming along.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I doubt they are, honestly. This is just media drama. I could imagine the Patriots saying "we think we can get you back in 4 weeks with an aggressive treatment protocol" and Mac wanting another opinion and the team obliging.
 

8slim

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I'm having a hard time understanding why Mac and the team might be on different pages for his treatment/return schedule. The Pats are barely in the discussion for a wild card spot and have no realistic chance at a championship this year, and rushing him back with limitations runs the risk of hampering his development and/or giving you lousy information about how well he's coming along.
Do you think that's how the organization sees it though?
 

Bigdogx

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I think he is out till around December at which time the pats will be probably still have only 1 maybe 2 wins under their belt.

This season is now about securing a high draft position, your kidding yourself if you think it is anything but!