The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

DJnVa

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He's including the playoff game. Not sure why you would start your nine game analysis right after a seven game winning streak ended but there you have it.
Additionally, that playoff game was not a good statistical performance, but I remember people and teammates being very complimentary of him that game as he seemed like one of the few players fighting.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Mac gets a limited participation tag today

DID NOT PARTICIPATE
WR Nelson Agholor - Hamstring

LIMITED PARTICIPATION
DL Christian Barmore - Knee
WR Kendrick Bourne - Toe
DL Lawrence Guy - Shoulder
CB Jonathan Jones - Ankle
QB Mac Jones - Ankle
G Mike Onwenu - Ankle
TE Jonnu Smith - Ankle
LB Josh Uche, Hamstring
T Isaiah Wynn - Shoulder

FULL PARTICIPATION
RB Damien Harris - Hamstring
 

brandonchristensen

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Not sure if this is serious or not, but:

- The reality is that changing RB's in a game is much easier than changing QB's.

- The Pats emphasis on ball security by their running backs has been so successful that the 538 folks were at one point convinced the Pats were "cheating" somehow.

- Not all picks are the fault of the QB.

- If Mac keeps throwing bad INT's, he will indeed get benched.
It wasn't NOT serious...

- Of course.
- Of course. (JURY IS STILL OUT ON THIS THE BALLS WERE DEFLATED!!!)
- Yeah but those aren't the picks that are worrisome for Mac.
- That was more the question I was asking.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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I think Mac is certainly safe right now when he is fully healthy, but what Bailey's performance throws into doubt is the leash going forward. This won't be a Cam Newton situation where he can underperform for weeks on end and Bill has to just shrug like the Bud Selig meme in the absence of a compelling alternative.

OTOH, we have to remember that this doesn't compare to Brady/Bledsoe to name the most famous QB controversy (remembering this was an actual debate in the moment). Brady was drafted by Bill and worked like hell in that coaching system to earn trust, whereas it was very apparent that Bledsoe was not his hand-picked QB and was the antithesis of what BB wanted at that position. Current day BB believed enough in Mac enough to draft him in the 1st round just a year ago, and growing pains notwithstanding he has more or less met the modest expectations you'd expect from his first full year.

It is also obvious based on my eye test that they are coaching Mac to be less predictable in the passing game and he is taking more deep shots/more chances so far this season. He is going to have some TOs in the near term, but the hope is if you are playing an important game late or the Bills in the playoffs again, the D can't just play 8-9 in the box the entire game.
 

rodderick

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I just wanted to comment that I heard Evan Lazar say in Patriots Unfiltered this week that the offense they were running with Mac this season in terms of personnel, shotgun percentage and concepts was modeled on the offense he ran under Sarkesian in Alabama, so while it's easy to say the coaching staff has put more on Mac's plate and was asking him to more aggressive this year, it also may very well be that they were trying to cater to what he feels more comfortable with and it still didn't work, while Zappe running a more 2021 Patriots style of offense worked better. Now, how much of that is Mac influencing the coaching staff and how much of it is just the coaching staff recognizing that implementing the Alabama stuff would ease Mac's development into a higher volume/higher downfield percentage QB is impossible to say.
 

scottyno

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Boy if he goes out monday night and lays an egg.... He better be 100% healed, no injury excuses will be valid if he doesn't play well.

You got a guy that the entire team is playing well with and meshing with, and we are about to go and screw that up possibly, like it or not! Imo you ride the hot hand but oh well, we will see how it goes.
Imagine if Brady got put back on the bench in 01, i wonder what that alternative reality would look like, and how many championship if any the patriots would have.
I missed the part where Bledsoe was healthy after 2 games
 

chilidawg

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From a Bears DT:

"He's a good quarterback. He doesn't like anyone next to his feet. He throws off of his back foot whenever there is pressure. If we can get some confusion going on then when he gets confused he throws the game away in my opinion. If he gets in a rhythm then he can hurt us and we have to give him that respect in that aspect. He does have a kryptonite we are going to expose."

https://www.patriots.com/news/what-they-re-saying-chicago-bears-x7294?fbclid=IwAR0Wt9puny5K_dWrNTqeT_HwiIqFTYKofk8EmWDLNEG_znn7E6j-cPZQrnE
 

ponch73

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Seems like the Bears' DT should have kept his thoughts to himself ... I bet Mac will have the exact quote taped up in his locker long before kickoff. Alternatively, Justin Jones reads the SOSH Patriots game threads.

"He's a good quarterback. He doesn't like anyone next to his feet. He throws off of his back foot whenever there is pressure. If we can get some confusion going on then when he gets confused he throws the game away in my opinion. If he gets in a rhythm then he can hurt us and we have to give him that respect in that aspect. He does have a kryptonite we are going to expose."
 

Ed Hillel

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Well, he's right. I think it was a pretty fair and accurate assessment and said respectfully. If Mac doesn't already know this, we have bigger problems.
 

Bigdogx

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I missed the part where Bledsoe was healthy after 2 games
And i missed the part were that matters, Drew Bledsoe was already a top ten established qb and was literally at that time one of the only stars on the team, not to mention just signed a huge 10/100 deal, Mac yeah not so much of any of that! He was listed being out as 6-8 weeks but we rode the hot hand and the rest is history.

This injury was said to take 4 weeks minimum and here we are rushing him back a week early, because clearly he feels threatened. Perosnally i almost want the Pats to give Zappe the ball until he drops it, which is what they did with Brady, yeah that stinks for Mac but this isn't everyone gets a trophy football!
 

GeorgeCostanza

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And i missed the part were that matters, Drew Bledsoe was already a top ten established qb and was literally at that time one of the only stars on the team, not to mention just signed a huge 10/100 deal, Mac yeah not so much of any of that! He was listed being out as 6-8 weeks but we rode the hot hand and the rest is history.

This injury was said to take 4 weeks minimum and here we are rushing him back a week early, because clearly he feels threatened. Perosnally i almost want the Pats to give Zappe the ball until he drops it, which is what they did with Brady, yeah that stinks for Mac but this isn't everyone gets a trophy football!
There’s a fair bit of conjecture in this post spoken as fact.
 

joe dokes

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This injury was said to take 4 weeks minimum and here we are rushing him back a week early, because clearly he feels threatened.
It was? By anyone from the Patriots?
We are? The injury was on September 25th. Monday will be October 24th. That's 4 weeks and one day.
He does? (Or does the fact that it's not really "early" eliminate the "feels threatened" part?)
 

Jimbodandy

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It's been so long since we've had reactionary backup QB talk for real that we all forget what it looks like.

Imagine this shit every year. There are 30YO in New England experiencing this for the first time. #themoreyouknow
 

88 MVP

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It's been so long since we've had reactionary backup QB talk for real that we all forget what it looks like.

Imagine this shit every year. There are 30YO in New England experiencing this for the first time. #themoreyouknow
Surely, there’s an alternate universe where Michael Bishop was a 15-year starter for New England
 

johnmd20

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Surely, there’s an alternate universe where Michael Bishop was a 15-year starter for New England
Out of the billions of multiverses out there, none of them have Bishop starting for 15 years. The longest tenure he had was 3 years on Alpha Centuri-98,987,215
 

Saints Rest

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It's been so long since we've had reactionary backup QB talk for real that we all forget what it looks like.

Imagine this shit every year. There are 30YO in New England experiencing this for the first time. #themoreyouknow
Pull up a hassock and Old Uncle Bernie will tell about Hugh Millen vs. Tommy Hodson.
My memory goes back to the Grogan/Cavanaugh debates. This one feels similar to me in that it's probably an argument over two mediocre QBs (as opposed to Millen/Hodson, an argument over two shit QBs).
 

scottyno

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And i missed the part were that matters, Drew Bledsoe was already a top ten established qb and was literally at that time one of the only stars on the team, not to mention just signed a huge 10/100 deal, Mac yeah not so much of any of that! He was listed being out as 6-8 weeks but we rode the hot hand and the rest is history.

This injury was said to take 4 weeks minimum and here we are rushing him back a week early, because clearly he feels threatened. Perosnally i almost want the Pats to give Zappe the ball until he drops it, which is what they did with Brady, yeah that stinks for Mac but this isn't everyone gets a trophy football!
When the Patriots had to make decision on if they should go back to Bledsoe when he was first healthy they had seen nearly a half season of Brady as the starter. That's a much larger sample than the 2+ games against horrible defenses that Zappe has played.

Also not sure in what universe 2001 Bledsoe was a top 10 qb. From 1999-2001 he had 38 tds and 36 ints. He hadn't been a pro bowler since 1997. 2021 Mac was better than 2000 Bledsoe, and 2001 Brady was almost certainly better than 2022 Zappe.
 
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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Is this what no QB controversy feels like?

Is it ok to admit that I'm kind of enjoying all this? I mean I don't like for a guy to be hurt. But we're not winning the super bowl and much as I can't make myself not root for the team to win, I really wouldn't mind if they were picking in the top 10 of each round for a change.

When they start the game, I'll be rooting for the Patriots to win but I also sort of won't mind if Mac does things that make the calls for Zappe louder. I think this makes me a bad person. I've been tending a little toward anarchy lately.

I think there's a certain freedom to being a Patriots fan. Our coach made the best personnel decision in the history of sports. He decided not to start the guy who made the greatest play in Super Bowl history in a subsequent Super Bowl, lost because the secondary got torched, and gives zero fucks what you think about it.

And that's what great about it. We're pretty much the only team in sports that gets to have a QB controversy that is not actually a QB controversy because it's all just in our minds and not actually a controversy in the building or anywhere else that matters. It's actually kind of cool.
 

bigq

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My memory goes back to the Grogan/Cavanaugh debates.
Don't forget about Tom Owen who came in from the bullpen to finish out the1981 with a pair of uninspiring losses to cap off a craptastic 2-14 season. He went a combined 15-36 for 218 yards with 1 TD and 4 INTs and was never heard from again. I can't remember if Cavanaugh and Grogan were injured or just threw in the towel but those red uniforms looked fucking fantastic.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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Don't forget about Tom Owen who came in from the bullpen to finish out the1981 with a pair of uninspiring losses to cap off a craptastic 2-14 season. He went a combined 15-36 for 218 yards with 1 TD and 4 INTs and was never heard from again. I can't remember if Cavanaugh and Grogan were injured or just threw in the towel but those red uniforms looked fucking fantastic.
Do I sense a “Worst starting QB in Pats history” thread?
 

BusRaker

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My memory goes back to the Grogan/Cavanaugh debates. This one feels similar to me in that it's probably an argument over two mediocre QBs (as opposed to Millen/Hodson, an argument over two shit QBs).
I grew up in the Grogan / Eason saga. My mom loved Grogan but Eason was a first rounder. That (1985-6) was probably the most "entertaining" year ever for a Pats fan with 2001 being a close second. Yeah it didn't end well

https://www.sportscasting.com/patriots-great-john-hannah-never-forgave-tony-eason-putrid-super-bowl-performance/
 

kartvelo

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The score in that game was 46-10.

"Tony should wear a skirt instead of a uniform?" Wow. I can't believe I've never heard that story before about Hannah.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The score in that game was 46-10.

"Tony should wear a skirt instead of a uniform?" Wow. I can't believe I've never heard that story before about Hannah.
I never really got why this label stuck to Eason. His defining characteristic as a QB was basically getting sacked. I'm not sure why that translates to being soft, which he did on 10% of his career dropbacks (17% of his playoff drop backs). That seems more of an indication of terrible pocket awareness than being soft (but the latter is the rap he always had).
 

lexrageorge

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The article is incorrect in that Eason had a very good year in 1986 despite the Super Bowl loss. However, no Hannah and no Dawson meant no running game, and defenses were free to tee off on him. After leading the league in sacks that season, he was never the same, battling multiple injuries including unadvisedly playing through a neck injury.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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I never really got why this label stuck to Eason. His defining characteristic as a QB was basically getting sacked. I'm not sure why that translates to being soft, which he did on 10% of his career dropbacks (17% of his playoff drop backs). That seems more of an indication of terrible pocket awareness than being soft (but the latter is the rap he always had).
While pocket awareness was certainly a huge part, the rap was that Grogan stood in the pocket and delivered the pass and took the hit (and obviously paid severely for it) whereas Eason essentially turtled under pressure.
 

joe dokes

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I grew up in the Grogan / Eason saga. My mom loved Grogan but Eason was a first rounder. That (1985-6) was probably the most "entertaining" year ever for a Pats fan with 2001 being a close second. Yeah it didn't end well

https://www.sportscasting.com/patriots-great-john-hannah-never-forgave-tony-eason-putrid-super-bowl-performance/
I was at a game in Foxboro against Seattle and Franco Harris's corpse when Grogan got hurt and replaced by Eason. Many in the crowd booed grogan as he was being led off the field. Some things never change.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198409160nwe.htm
 

8slim

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I never really got why this label stuck to Eason. His defining characteristic as a QB was basically getting sacked. I'm not sure why that translates to being soft, which he did on 10% of his career dropbacks (17% of his playoff drop backs). That seems more of an indication of terrible pocket awareness than being soft (but the latter is the rap he always had).
I think it was his SB performance that got him tagged with that rep. One enduring image I have of the game (granted I was 12 so this could be less than factual) was of Eason looking for a place to hit the deck as the Bears rush came down on him.

Eason would have been a terrific QB in todays game given how much more QBs are protected.
 

radsoxfan

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4 weeks is aggressive but not too crazy if the sprain was moderate rather than high grade.

Hopefully Mac is 95+% back there and we don’t notice any gimpiness.

A lingering injury all season would be a bummer.
 

radsoxfan

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Maybe he has a high pain tolerance. (ducking)
As long as he doesn’t announce it to the world when he walks in the door, he might :).

The positive predictive value of true high pain tolerance for those that immediately declare a high pain tolerance is near 0%.

Russell Wilson claiming to have “wolverine blood”? Almost certainly a huge baby. #science.
 

NortheasternPJ

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As long as he doesn’t announce it to the world when he walks in the door, he might :).

The positive predictive value of true high pain tolerance for those that immediately declare a high pain tolerance is near 0%.

Russell Wilson claiming to have “wolverine blood”? Almost certainly a huge baby. #science.
I mean Wilson also refers to himself as Mr. Unlimited. He seems rather limited in winning games or even being a starting QB.
 

ponch73

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And I don't think anyone is arguing that he has played particularly well over the last 8 games (it's 8 games FYI, not 9 - they went from 9-4 last year to a 10-8 finish, so 5 games, plus 3 this year). I think people are trying to understand why that may have happened, and there is probably some rationalizing to a degree. He did a lot of really exciting and encouraging stuff in the Baltimore game, but it was basically completely offset by several really bad throws / decisions.
Hopefully, Mac makes a strong statement tomorrow night to quiet his critics, at least temporarily, but I'm wondering how much stock we should put into one game against a Ravens defense that just allowed Jacoby Brissett to complete 81% of his passes for 9.6 yards per attempt in their home stadium.
 
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Hasn’t it been clear for two or three days that Mac would almost certainly be starting Monday night? Especially after the reports of his having taken the first (and majority) of the reps with the starters in the practices leading up to the game.


EDIT TYPOS
 

ponch73

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In honor of Mac's start tonight, here's how he compares to the rest of the QB's drafted in 2021. While it's still early, I think it's fair to say that Mac has been the best pick thus far (ranking 1st or 2nd in every category, save for INT%). Interestingly, Davis Mills looks like the best bargain. Trevor Lawrence has, thus far, been the most durable. And Trey Lance has perhaps been the most explosive.

Here's hoping Mac can eventually claim the top spots in YPA, ANY/A, TD% and INT%.

Screen Shot 2022-10-23 at 10.03.18 PM.png
 

Gash Prex

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Anytime I hear people on this board telling me how mediocre Jones rookie season was, I just want to gesture at all the all other rookie QBs in the last 2 years (actually you can do so for all rookie QBs in the history of the NFL). Of course his numbers would be even better if he had played against the worst defenses in the NFL the last 2 weeks.
 

Cellar-Door

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In honor of Mac's start tonight, here's how he compares to the rest of the QB's drafted in 2021. While it's still early, I think it's fair to say that Mac has been the best pick thus far (ranking 1st or 2nd in every category, save for INT%). Interestingly, Davis Mills looks like the best bargain. Trevor Lawrence has, thus far, been the most durable. And Trey Lance has perhaps been the most explosive.

Here's hoping Mac can eventually claim the top spots in YPA, ANY/A, TD% and INT%.

View attachment 56825
Mostly what this tells us is Mac was the best rookie by a significant margin, which we already knew.

Lawrence for example took a big step forward going to year 2, basically the opposite of Mac.

If people are concerned about Mac it's because his TD% halved and his INT% more than doubled and his ANY/A dropped. People should expect rookie QBs to be bad, year 2 and 3 are the key years usually. Mac was surprisingly good as a rookie, but (in a small 3 game sample) the concern is that in year 2 he not only didn't improve, he appears to have regressed (now there could be valid reasons for that, and it's a small sample but...), where some of the others, notably Lawrence, are doing what you'd hope for out of a young QB... he significantly cut his INT%, he significantly raised his TD%, his ANY/A also went up.

Generally I don't think you grade second year QBs by career stats, it's mostly pointless, since you don't really care about totals you care about year over year growth. We've had a lot of Josh Allen comps on here (which I think we've finally agreed are dumb) and one of the things is... if you looked at Allen halfway through his 3rd year against his classmates using this method, he wouldn't look that good, he'd have been behind Lamar obviously, but also Baker, and maybe even Darnold, because all of those guys had much better rookie years, and some had better year 2 numbers.... but... anyone paying attention would have seen that Allen started all-time bad, jumped to just mediocre bad then took the leap year 3... trajectory matters far more the first 3 years than aggregated totals, and more recent games should be weighted signifcantly more than earlier games.

It's 3 games, so it's too early to be significantly concerned about Mac, but his rookie season becomes less and less important in deciding what he is as a future NFL QB as you move forward.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Anytime I hear people on this board telling me how mediocre Jones rookie season was, I just want to gesture at all the all other rookie QBs in the last 2 years (actually you can do so for all rookie QBs in the history of the NFL). Of course his numbers would be even better if he had played against the worst defenses in the NFL the last 2 weeks.
He had this opportunity multiple times last year, his performance in those situations was basically EXACTLY what Zappe did in his 2nd NFL start. I don't think Mac is mediocre, or that Zappe is destined to be an NFL starter, but we have learned they're a lot closer in talent than we previously thought.
 

DJnVa

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Well, he's right. I think it was a pretty fair and accurate assessment and said respectfully. If Mac doesn't already know this, we have bigger problems.
Well he might be right that Mac doesn't like people at his feet (does any QB?) but it remains to be seen if they can actually expose it to a point that matters.

It's like the things we heard about Brady--"If you can get pressure up the middle, it makes him human!!" Well, yes. Sure. Now do it consistently.