The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

splendid splinter

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I should have been more clear. He wasn't calling that play a negative play by Mac. He was calling it a negative play by the Jets D. Here's a more clear version of his argument:

1. Most of the big plays by the Pats offense were more the result of putrid defense than brilliant offense. The screen to Jonnu was a classic example of that, but there were several others. (He points out one notable exception that was all Pats' execution: Jones' 46 yard bomb to Bourne.)
2. Jones made a bunch of negative plays in the first half. They didn't hurt the Pats very much because the Jets D was so bad.
Did he provide an example of a negative play by Jones that you could share? I'm curious as to what his definition of a negative play is.
 

Jimbodandy

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I rarely watch this stuff, but where Lazar says:



I see a QB who didn't set his feet and therefore threw the ball behind Bolden.
I think that Lazar has this one right. This was a great throw and the only place that the ball could go. His placement was generally awesome. There were a couple of wtf throws, but this was one of 3-4 elite placement throws on the day.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Did he provide an example of a negative play by Jones that you could share? I'm curious as to what his definition of a negative play is.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/10/27/Jets-was-not-a-coming-out-party-for-Mac-Jones-or-the-Patriots-bedard-breakdown

Here's a still of the Jonnu screen pass (not a negative play by Mac).

photoCaption-photoCredit


Jonnu (with the ball) is in one circle, 2 NYJ defenders high-tailing it out of there in the other.

This is what he wrote about Jones:
Don't really care what Jones' stats look like, he wasn't great in this game. He was very much middle of the road. Didn't have him for a plus play in this game until his 3rd-down scramble (another wide-open play) and just four for the game. Had him for five minus plays in the first half, one in the second. Even the big third-down completion to Jakobi Meyers in the middle of the field was unfettered.

Jones missed Henry on a 3rd and 6 gotta-have-it play in the red zone that led to a field goal. Misfired to an open Henry later, didn't give Nelson Agholor chances on two balls in the red zone, and flat-out missed Bolden in the flat behind him.

Relatively, wasn't under as much pressure in this game, which makes this performance a little disappointing. The deep ball to Bourne was a great sign and hopefully more will come.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I have zero doubt that you could go through every QBs game performance and find misreads and bad throws.
Bederd is just calling the performance not his best. He was more positive after the Dallas game:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/10/21/time-Bill-Belichick-to-take-over-Patriots-defense-completely

Not sure if it was his best game so far — the Miami game was pretty good — but Mac Jones had a very strong game with only two minus plays on my sheet, a third-down throw to Jakobi Meyers and the pick-six that KendrickBourne also shared in. Had Jones for eight plus plays, including the touchdown to Meyers that was wiped off due to a James Ferentz hold that was a very tough call. ... He made some plays down the field (the Meyers TD would have been nice if it stood) made some great anticipatory throws in this game, none better than the one in overtime above to Meyers. That is just an elite play ... Upon further review, Jones' TD to Bourne was not the product of bad safety play by the Cowboys (though there was plenty of that ... it's Dallas kryptonite). Only Ed Reed could have picked off that pass, and Jones actually helped the play immensely by holding the safety. ... Considering Jones was nearly decapitated twice and was under pressure, again, nearly 35 percent of the time, he had a very strong game.
 

Cellar-Door

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I have zero doubt that you could go through every QBs game performance and find misreads and bad throws.
I mean, yeah... you can also find good throws and reads in even the worst days. That's kinda the point, you should note both and make assessments from there.
 

Super Nomario

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I kind of agree with Bedard here - Mac wasn't great early when the Pats built their big lead - but you can also view that through a positive lens: he didn't need to be. If they've got the run game going, set up play action off that, and scheme up some YAC plays and shot plays for the receivers, the QB doesn't need to drop it in a shoebox every single play. Mac's been good so far this year and the Pats have often needed him to be great to win ... here they just needed him to be OK and the O put up gobs of points.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I have no doubt Mac left some plays on the table but some of those plays Bedard is critiquing seem like big stretches.

He did miss Henry on 3rd and 6 but it wasn't a gimme throw, it seemed to be relatively late in his progression, he needed to loft it a bit over an onrushing lineman's hand and he needed to lead Henry going away from him, who had a step but only a step. I'm sure Mac wants that one back and its a throw you definitely hope he makes more often than not. But every QB is going to miss that kind of throw sometimes.

The only red zone plays to Agholor I can find are a deep ball where he might have led him by a yard too much, but Agholor also may have gotten too tangled with the DB to get there, and a play on 2nd and 7 where Agholor was covered, it was a contested catch situation, and Agholor just didn't make the play. Again, those are plays you might want back if you're a total perfectionist but if those are your examples of a "negative play" by a QB its really stretching. None of these are turnovers, yardage losers that kill drives in other ways, or examples of missing a wide open receiver you should be able to hit with your eyes closed.
 
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snowmanny

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Bedard was not positive in his review of Mac's game against the Jets.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/10/27/Jets-was-not-a-coming-out-party-for-Mac-Jones-or-the-Patriots-bedard-breakdown

His argument: Mac made a bunch of negative plays in the first half but the Jets efense (no d) made the Pats look good.

Example: Mac threw a screen pass to Jonnu, who turned it into a 28 yard gain. Well executived play by the Pats, including Jonnu selling the block before slipping out to catch the screen. BUT, the Jets were atrocious. As the play developed, 2 of their defenders were turned around, running away from line of scrimmage (I guess to get to their zones?). Jonnu had already caught the ball and started upfield before either of these defenders had even turned back towards the play. It looks unreal - Jonnu starting to run down the field while 2 Jets defenders are literally running down the field ahead of him.
Sounds like opportunistic play-calling given the opponent. I mean there’s a lot of stuff that works against Team A but not Team B.

ED: Maybe there's a lot of stuff that works against the Jets but not 30 other teams.
 
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E5 Yaz

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if Bedard wants to be down on Jones every time they score 54 points, I'm good with that
 

DJnVa

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The early returns on Mac are fairly encouraging but we are only 7 games into his career and while he has performed better than the other rookie QB’s, is it worth noting that he’s only beaten teams that have started rookie QB’s?
Sure, that's fine. But he was a whisker from beating a team QB'd by the GOAT, so...
 

tims4wins

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I should have been more clear. He wasn't calling that play a negative play by Mac. He was calling it a negative play by the Jets D. Here's a more clear version of his argument:

1. Most of the big plays by the Pats offense were more the result of putrid defense than brilliant offense. The screen to Jonnu was a classic example of that, but there were several others. (He points out one notable exception that was all Pats' execution: Jones' 46 yard bomb to Bourne.)
2. Jones made a bunch of negative plays in the first half. They didn't hurt the Pats very much because the Jets D was so bad.
Thanks for the clarification. Agree with everyone else that Mac was below his usual standard in the first half. He played well in the second half.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don’t think Berard is down on Jones. I think he would say Jones was better in the Dallas game.
And I don't have a much of a problem with that, since he was also very good in the Dallas game. The comparison to the Miami game is mind blowing though. He left a lot of points on the board in week 1. And even though we were close at the end anyway, we should have walked away with that game.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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And I doubt have a much of a problem with that, since he was also very good in the Dalla game. The comparison to the Miami game is mind blowing though. He left a lot of points on the board in week 1. And even though we were close at the end anyway, we should have walked away with that game.
It wasn't Mac who punched the ball out of Damian Harris' hands.
 

Eddie Jurak

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View: https://twitter.com/Patriots/status/1454905997634404352?s=20

Patriots: Going DEEP!

This was Mac's worst game - although he rebounded well from a long rough stretch to make some key plays at the end, but this was one of his best passes. He held the safety by looking towards Meyers, stepped up oin the pocket, and then practically dropped it right into Agholor's hands 37 yards downfield. The Pats need to work in more passes like this, because Mac's arm seems fine for this. Where you see his arm limitation is on the kind of pass that Brady (and even Bledsoe before him) used to excel at - the intermediate range laser either downfield or to the sideline. Mac often seems (to me at least I'm no expert) to throw without setting himself and using good mechanics and some of those balls take some time to get there. But on throws like the one to Agholor it doesn't seem to matter. They have to do more and better on those throws (as they have been trying to do with mixed success), compared with the Brady era when they could count on him firing lasers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I didn;t know this until I heard Mac's WEEI interview yesterday, but apparently, Mac gets fired up before games by... barking. This seems to be catching on with the players more generally, but it started with Mac. Confirmation here:

https://nesn.com/2021/11/why-mac-jones-barks-yes-barks-before-after-patriots-games/

The New England Patriots rookie quarterback acknowledged Monday that he likes to bark — yes, bark, like a dog — before and after games to fire himself up or celebrate big wins.

“It just kind of gets you hyped up,” Jones said on WEEI’s “Merloni & Fauria.” “I don’t know. It’s just a way to get out all your emotions.”

Jones said the barks were back before and after Sunday’s 27-24 road victory over the Los Angeles Chargers — and that some of his teammates have joined in.

“Oh yeah,” Jones said on WEEI. “Before the game, we’ve got some barkers. … Y’all can predict what everyone’s barks would sound like.”
Woof.
 

koufax32

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It may be part wish casting on my part, but I can’t help but get a Phillip Rivers vibe from Mac’s play. Rivers did not have an arm cannon but he anticipated and placed balls in perfect places so well. When Mac hurries, he even throws a little like Rivers too.
 

GB5

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good call on that Koufax. He is going to need to continue to excel at ball placement, if his passes continue to lack zip. I think they let him air it out more this past Sunday. He overthrew a few passes deep. He threw some floaters that needed zip, one big one that comes to mind was to NKEAL on a curl route to the right. The ball came out soft and just hung in the air, which caused Nkeal to have to come back, and actually do a really good job using his body to shield Asante Samuel Jr, from the ball. A little zip there and NKeal may have had some YAC.
 

steveluck7

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I agree completely that this was his worst game and I've been seeing / hearing that in the media since then. What i am encouraged about, however, is that even on his worst day he looks like a competent NFL QB. To me, that's something Bill and the organization can build on. He wasn't "on" for the day overall but he didn't turn the ball over and when he rushed (admittedly a bunch of) throws, he missed very high or very short - he wasn't throwing into danger. On top of that, despite his struggles, when they needed a sustained drive, he stepped up.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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It may be part wish casting on my part, but I can’t help but get a Phillip Rivers vibe from Mac’s play. Rivers did not have an arm cannon but he anticipated and placed balls in perfect places so well. When Mac hurries, he even throws a little like Rivers too.
Maybe he’s a “window throwa” like Rivers:)
 

joe dokes

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It may be part wish casting on my part, but I can’t help but get a Phillip Rivers vibe from Mac’s play. Rivers did not have an arm cannon but he anticipated and placed balls in perfect places so well. When Mac hurries, he even throws a little like Rivers too.
We'll know more after his 7th child is born.

(Rivers does seem like a good comp so far)
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Just leaving this here, don't think it is behind any paywall: How New England's Mac Jones became the best QB in 2021 draft
What an absolutely shit-tastic write up.
Lawrence and Mills are stuck on terrible teams, and Mills of course is only on the field because Tyrod Taylor got hurt. Wilson and Fields have put together a few highlight plays but far more often looked unprepared for the NFL. Lance has mostly been twiddling his thumbs, waiting for the 49ers to decide whether they are in or out on Jimmy Garoppolo. Jones has clearly been the most pro-ready member of the class, but has done little to show that he'll ever be more than an average starter.
Jones is on pace for 291 passing DYAR, which would put him among the top 20 rookies on record. He'd be a few slots below Cam Newton (remember, this is ignoring rushing data) but slightly ahead of Joe Flacco, Chris Chandler, or Drew Bledsoe. That's not bad company considering all four of those men reached the Super Bowl.

There is no question that Jones has been the best rookie quarterback this season. It's just not very exciting watching him play. [...] That lack of big plays is the biggest thing Jones needs to work on as his career develops. If he can't make the occasional risk pay off once in a while, he may have already hit his ceiling.
So... the numbers would put him top 20 of all time, but it's just not very exciting watching him play, so fuck him. Already hit his ceiling.

What drivel.
 

pokey_reese

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What an absolutely shit-tastic write up.
So... the numbers would put him top 20 of all time, but it's just not very exciting watching him play, so fuck him. Already hit his ceiling.

What drivel.
I feel like the bigger problem for me is that they talk about his need to improve his ability to take and convert shots downfield to be an above-average starter, but also acknowledge that they are running a very conservative game plan with him because he is a rookie. Like, of course what he is today isn't going to be enough to be great, sure, but it feels like you need to grade on a curve a bit here, and it seems to give no account to the potential improvement/age curve of QBs. I would be interested to see what those curves look like for deciles of performance in rookie year, for example.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I feel like the bigger problem for me is that they talk about his need to improve his ability to take and convert shots downfield to be an above-average starter, but also acknowledge that they are running a very conservative game plan with him because he is a rookie. Like, of course what he is today isn't going to be enough to be great, sure, but it feels like you need to grade on a curve a bit here, and it seems to give no account to the potential improvement/age curve of QBs. I would be interested to see what those curves look like for deciles of performance in rookie year, for example.
It's just the common but stupid assumption. Lawrence and Wilson and company can learn to read defenses, etc, but Mac is already performing at peak Mac with nowhere to improve.
 

rodderick

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Kind of like Brady in his first three years
Brady was a top 10 QB in 2001 already, I really wish we'd stop with this comparison. Maybe people thought he didn't have the tools to be truly elite, but he showed a really high baseline of performance from the jump. If Mac finishes the season 6th in passer rating, 11th in DVOA and makes the Pro Bowl, we'll be talking about what his bust in Canton will look like. That was Brady in '01. I just fear we're setting the kid up to fail with this stuff.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Brady was a top 10 QB in 2001 already, I really wish we'd stop with this comparison. Maybe people thought he didn't have the tools to be truly elite, but he showed a really high baseline of performance from the jump. If Mac finishes the season 6th in passer rating, 11th in DVOA and makes the Pro Bowl, we'll be talking about what his bust in Canton will look like. That was Brady in '01. I just fear we're setting the kid up to fail with this stuff.
I think the Brady comparisons are inappropriate for many reasons, but so was the idea that we've seen Mac's peak already. Both suffer from similar misconceptions.
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Brady was a top 10 QB in 2001 already, I really wish we'd stop with this comparison. Maybe people thought he didn't have the tools to be truly elite, but he showed a really high baseline of performance from the jump. If Mac finishes the season 6th in passer rating, 11th in DVOA and makes the Pro Bowl, we'll be talking about what his bust in Canton will look like. That was Brady in '01. I just fear we're setting the kid up to fail with this stuff.
It’s an unfair and kind of silly comparison but it’s true that commentators at the time said Brady was a phenomenon but also a game manager who lacked the tools to reach the level of the game’s elite QBs. Questions were definitely raised about his ceiling.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah in 2001 the Pats threw all kinds of screens, slants, etc. Everything was underneath and low risk. By 2002 Brady made a huge jump, they threw the ball on like 20 straight plays against the Steelers in the opener. Not sure I'd call Brady top 10 in 2001, although he was borderline. He was ~6th in passer rating and top 10 in ANY/A, as well as top 5-6 in completion percentage. His YPA was in the 15-20 range. Decent but not great TD and INT %s. I think it's fair to say he was top half the league in 2001. Maybe the very bottom of the top 10.
 

BaseballJones

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The comparison shouldn't be between Mac and Brady. It should simply be between Mac and other solid QBs that were in their first year.

I'm willing to bet that Mac would stand up well in that comparison.
 

Super Nomario

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Yeah in 2001 the Pats threw all kinds of screens, slants, etc. Everything was underneath and low risk. By 2002 Brady made a huge jump, they threw the ball on like 20 straight plays against the Steelers in the opener. Not sure I'd call Brady top 10 in 2001, although he was borderline. He was ~6th in passer rating and top 10 in ANY/A, as well as top 5-6 in completion percentage. His YPA was in the 15-20 range. Decent but not great TD and INT %s. I think it's fair to say he was top half the league in 2001. Maybe the very bottom of the top 10.
Another consideration looking at Brady's surface numbers in 2001 is that they had zero receiver depth - Terry Glenn finished third on the team in receiving yards and he was put out to pasture after only four games. The Pats finished 25th in scoring offense in 2000 with Bledsoe, 20th in 2019, and scored 20 points in their first two games in 2001, so finishing 6th in scoring in 2001 was pretty impressive and a harbinger of great things to come for Brady.
 

tims4wins

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Another consideration looking at Brady's surface numbers in 2001 is that they had zero receiver depth - Terry Glenn finished third on the team in receiving yards and he was put out to pasture after only four games. The Pats finished 25th in scoring offense in 2000 with Bledsoe, 20th in 2019, and scored 20 points in their first two games in 2001, so finishing 6th in scoring in 2001 was pretty impressive and a harbinger of great things to come for Brady.
Not just depth, but skill level. Wiggins was the receiving tight end. We all love David Patten but he was their #2 receiver. Faulk wasn't Falk at that point. Totally agree on that point.

On the points scored, they did benefit from 2 punt return TDs and 5 INT TDs. Not sure how that compared to the rest of the league, but it felt like a lot. They threw for 21 TDs, ran for 15, and had those 7 bonus TDs. So roughly 1/6 of their TDs and ~13% of their scoring was from D/ST
 

rodderick

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The comparison shouldn't be between Mac and Brady. It should simply be between Mac and other solid QBs that were in their first year.

I'm willing to bet that Mac would stand up well in that comparison.
He very likely would, I just wish people used adjusted stats. He's on pace to throw for 4200 yards, which would sound crazy for a rookie even 10 years ago, but with 17 games and this passing environment it's still an achievement but not a historic one. My fear is that people take these numbers and start expecting him to be elite by year 3 without the understanding that in this league those numbers basically mean he's been an okay QB as a rookie, which is an accomplishment in itself (and really no one should realistically expect more than that), but not an indication that he's on a path to greatness necessarily.
 

BusRaker

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Not trying to compare the two, just saying all of this "ceiling" stuff is media-fed bullshit. Anyone can improve in any facet of the game, physically or mentally
 

rodderick

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Not trying to compare the two, just saying all of this "ceiling" stuff is media-fed bullshit. Anyone can improve in any facet of the game, physically or mentally
I disagree. You can't improve foot speed and you generally can't meaningfully improve arm strength or even accuracy for that matter (which makes Josh Allen a crazy outlier in QB development), just as guys who come into the league as questionable decision makers never tend to develop into top tier in that department. The problem with the Mac analysis is people taking the things he does well (like ball placement, decisivenes and a quick release) for granted and just figuring every young QB will develop those traits with experience, which is 100% untrue. At the same time, when you look at a guy like Trevor Lawrence you can say he simply has more tools in his belt than Mac does (much better physically and also showed good mental acuity in the college game and reasonable accuracy in the pros), so he likely has a wider development path to elite starter. Now, I don't think that's true of Trey Lance and Justin Fields necessarily, precisely because they're so far back in the mental department at this point and I'll never just assume that'll come in time.

The thing is that it's always easier to project what you can immediately see, such as arm strength, size and speed, so those traits are always overvalued in detriment to the stuff that doesn't immediately jump out at you. But ceilings as a concept exist in my opinion.
 

rodderick

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You say you can’t improve foot speed and arm strength… did you not watch Tom Brady for 20 years??
I don't think he meaningfully improved either. He got better at moving around in the pocket, a skill he already had when he came into the league, but he isn't any faster today (or any other day) than he was when he was drafted.

When I say "meaningfully" I mean a guy who's slow will never be fast and a guy who has a weak arm will never have a strong one. He can develop that into "okay" and mitigate the weakness, but I can't recall a single example of a guy who turned that into a strength. Certainly not Brady, who never had a weak or even average arm to begin with.
 
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TSC

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I don't think he meaningfully improved either. He got better at moving around in the pocket, a skill he already had when he came into the league, but he isn't any faster today (or any other day) than he was when he was drafted.

When I say "meaningfully" I mean a guy who's slow will never be fast and a guy who has a weak arm will never have a strong one. He can develop that into "okay" and mitigate the weakness, but I can't recall a single example of a guy who turned that into a strength. Certainly not Brady, who never had a weak or even average arm to begin with.
I don’t think your last statement is true, and it’s certainly not supported by various scouting reports on Brady prior to the draft.

Hell, even Brady recalls his arm being considered an issue.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/BRLoTIkhdOw/?utm_medium=copy_link
 

djbayko

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The idea that you can’t improve arm strength seems wild to me. Yes, Brady is a prime example. But it also defies logic - people work out to get stronger. If that doesn’t work; then what is everyone doing wasting their time? Additionally, I’m sure working on footwork and throwing technique will contribute to improvements in what people see as arm strength. The fact that Mac’s arm is as weak as the consensus here appears to believe, means to me that he has a lot of opportunity for improvement.

Edit: It’s certainly possible that an individual has reached the maximum level of strength training that they can / are willing to perform on a weekly basis, and therefore have plateaued in their development. So if a rookie has spent years focusing on that area and cannot increase their output, then yeah, they’ll stagnate. I just don’t know how any of us can know this about anyone.
 

DJnVa

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You can absolutely increase your foot speed. Combine even slightly increased foot speed, with better awareness of the NFL game and it will 100% make a difference.
 

rodderick

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I don't get why you guys are hell bent on ignoring the the term "meaningfully" on my posts. You can improve on every area of your game as a player, I just can't recall many examples of a player turning a physical weakness into a strength at the NFL level. Brady was drafted by the Expos as a catcher, the arm talent was always there. If scouts thought it wasn't good enough and if people thought he had a noodle arm in the NFL because he threw short in his first years in the league, that's another story altogether.

You can go from "bad" to "okay" and you can go from "good" to "great", I don't think you can go from "bad" to "good". If Mac really works on his arm and mechanics he'll have Kirk Cousins/Matt Ryan arm strength, which is more than enough to succeed in the league, but he's being compared to guys who are coming out with some of the best arms in football already, hence the "ceiling" talk (which I already posited always tends to ignore the mental aspect of the game and just assume it'll come naturally with experience, which is bullshit).