I think Lance, Hurts and Winston are toss ups. Personally I’d take all of them over Mac but it’s a definite argument. Regardless, it’s pretty clear that Mac is a middle of the road (and closer to the bottom) QB right now.
The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
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I want to see this year and maybe next year if Mac before I draw any conclusions about who I would or wouldn’t want vs him. There’s a chance he continues to get a stronger arm, work on mechanics, and get better post-snap. If that happens he could be a top-10 QB. Bottom half of the top-10 but still a valuable player. Of course there is a chance his limitations make him a consistently 15-23 kind of QB too. Still a little early. And keep in mind I was never a Mac guy.
I think this year is probably the key year. If it's bad, and he is one of the reasons, then you are in a spot in the draft where you are in QB range, and have to make the decision on whether to grab one. If the team is mediocre and he is mediocre, maybe more likely to go a 3rd year before starting to think about the next draftee. Obviously if he improves as does the team then you probably are picking up the option and going into year 4 as the "pay him or draft someone new" year.
I'm not even thinking about drafting a QB next year unless they have a top 3-5 pick, and I don't believe they'll be anywhere near that bad. Too many extenuating circumstances surrounding Mac in the coaching department for me to believe a mid round guy could potentially be a better option going forward. Even if he is part of the problem (as I believe he was Sunday), I'm giving him somewhat of a pass this year. Of course, if they are terrible and win 4 games, then Mac was likely so bad you have to consider going another way.
It’s still very early, but how has your opinion changed on other QBs? I still think Lawrence can grow into a very good QB. But I have real doubts for Wilson, Lance, Fields, etc. Mac and Mills look more polished than that crew.
And the 2022 class wasn’t supposed to be very strong going into the draft.
Haven't put in the due diligence to answer this but don't want to ignore you by not responding because I don't have a good answer
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Fair enough!Haven't put in the due diligence to answer this but don't want to ignore you by not responding because I don't have a good answer
It’s still so early and the talent/ceiling issues are unchanged, but I’m pretty confident that if the 49ers or Jets could go back in time, they would have taken Mac over Lance and Wilson. Less confident about Fields.
The 49ers especially given their current window. They’ll never say that of course and I’m sure they hope Lance improves, just my sense reading between the lines.
Possible, but for SF, I think there is a case that if they went back, they don't make a trade and don't take a QB. Lance was a pick based on significantly more upside and different skillset than Jimmy G. Mac has the same skillset as Jimmy G, and his (realistic) ceiling isn't THAT much higher, so while they might make the pick just for $ reasons they might in hindsight have re-structure/extended Jimmy, taken a player at a premium position (Parsons, Slater?), and picked up a backup/development prospect later (Mills?, Trask?, Mond? Book?, EHlinger?) and had a better SB run.
I think that it's hard having a firm, updated opinion on Wilson and Fields because their environments are such junk for QBs and offense in general. And Lance, while in a better environment, has all of 99 attempts in his career.
No doubt, it’s all very fluid still (though the teams know more than we do given the practice). My post was not meant to be definitive, just speculation.
Definitely agree with CD that with the benefit of hindsight the 49ers might just keep the picks rather than take a QB at all. I was just doing the hypothetical assuming the trade was already made.
It’s weird to think that someone would prefer to have Jameis Winston to Mac Jones. At least with a guy like Mac (or Lance), we know there’s the potential for development. With a lot of these guys—Hurts, Winston—they are finished products. We know exactly who they are and what they’re capable of, with the exception of maybe a little tinkering around the edges to improve efficiency or cut down on INTs.
not great bob
Hurts is 24 and has played 31 games in his career. Mac Jones is 24 and has played in 18 games in his career.
Not that I expect a huge leap from Hurts, but it's certainly possible.
Yeah it's very amusing that folks can make definitive conclusions about some of these other guys that are the same age, but with Mac he has all the potential in the world if all the stars align correctly.
Hurts is the same age as Mac, as others have pointed out. As to Jameis.... he may be a finished product, but he's also... pretty good? People get worked up about the huge INT year a while back, but he's a pretty good QB, and he's interesting in that he had Lasik after that season and while more limited in games played, his INT rate plummeted, he was also less aggressive, but still more aggressive than Mac. I mean, Mac has more room to grow, but Jameis was probably the better QB last year, so if you think Mac is ceiling limited... Jameis isn't a bad alternative at all.
Edit- to be clear, I'd rather have Mac than Jameis for a variety of reasons, but it's not a crazy question to ask.
I admit to thinking Jameis’ INT issues have been worse than they really are based on his 30 INT season. He fumbles a good deal, though less so the past few years in much more limited playing time.
He’s certainly among the more turnover prone starting caliber QBs, but I thought the stats would be worse.
He’s certainly among the more turnover prone starting caliber QBs, but I thought the stats would be worse.
For me, there are far too many variables to be fielding direct questions about Mac right now. Could issues be his own regarding mechanics and his talent as a passer, or do they stem more from systematic problems with O Line, playcalling, and lack of top end receiving talent? I don't think there is any way to figure this out without more data, but I lean more that the issues are more systematic and that Mac is a good starter (of course this is all relative given the amount of QB talent in the league right now). I think there are two major problems with the offense:
1)Belichick is becoming more conservative/risk averse with age while the league is trending the other way. I mean this both in terms of the plays that are called (run heavy, short passes) and the risks taken during the game e.g. on 4th down (even the rookie Miami coach took more risks than him). *As an aside, I'm not sure why the team didn't use more play action against the Dolphins. If you are going to run, it seems to me play action needs to be a huge part of your offense.
2) the team has a bunch of decent to pretty good receivers but no true game breakers in terms of speed and separation downfield
1)Belichick is becoming more conservative/risk averse with age while the league is trending the other way. I mean this both in terms of the plays that are called (run heavy, short passes) and the risks taken during the game e.g. on 4th down (even the rookie Miami coach took more risks than him). *As an aside, I'm not sure why the team didn't use more play action against the Dolphins. If you are going to run, it seems to me play action needs to be a huge part of your offense.
2) the team has a bunch of decent to pretty good receivers but no true game breakers in terms of speed and separation downfield
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I agree to an extent (though I think he has good talent, the line is a solid/good pass blocking line, he has no gamebreakers, but 6 NFL caliber pass catchers, four 2-3 WR types and 2 starting quality receiving TEs), but scheme is part of the issue. What I think I feel comfortable saying about Mac RIGHT NOW is that he isn't a QB who elevates the talent around him. Maybe he becomes that, but he's a Jimmy G not a Rodgers not sure he's even a Carr in that respect. Mac is gonna get what is schemed and what his passcatchers create. He isn't throwing guys open, or creating with illusiveness, and I do think he misses some stuff, particularly deep. That's the Carr spot. Carr made Agholor a beast because once he got a half-step Carr just put it out there for him with zero fear, Mac isn't throwing bombs on a half-step, he's just not willing (or maybe able) to make those throws. Mac is also 24 and 1 game into his second year, so he has the potential to grow into an elevator.
Even though we beat Pittsburgh, I think we need to talk about how bad Mac Jones has looked this season, especially today.
There's been much discussion of Mac's arm over the past year. For now, let's forget the arm. Plenty more time to talk about that.
Let's talk about Mac's inaccuracy. He missed several open, hittable (for him) throws today, just as he did in week 1 against Miami.
Let's talk about Mac's poor reads and decision-making. His one interception came on a ball where he threw deep for Parker, covered by a LB. That makes sense except Mac obviously had no idea that that LB had safety help in the form of Minkah Fitzpatrick who came down with the easy INT. On a different play, Mac, scrambling, hits a Pittsburgh defender right in the numbers, but the ball was dropped. According to the announcers and to twitter, Mac also did not see some open receivers.
Let's talk about Mac's struggles to get the team to the line and run plays cleanly. The Pats offense had several mistakes of the false start/delay of game/need to burn a time out variety. While a false start is not 100% on the QB (a different player is the guy who jumped), it is an indication that the offense - Mac's offense - is not running smoothly. Same for the delays and being foced to burn time outs.
Whatever the reason, this guy is a mistake-prone mess right now. I'll come back to the arm just to say this: not having a cannon reduces some margin for error. Mac can't afford to miss open throws he can hit, canot afford not to know where the safeties are, cannot afford to lose yards or time outs because he cannot get the team set in time.
Maybe some of this is defenses adjusting to what he did well last year? But he doesn't look like a guy who can lead an NFL team to 11 wins, a thing he actually did accomplish last year.
There's been much discussion of Mac's arm over the past year. For now, let's forget the arm. Plenty more time to talk about that.
Let's talk about Mac's inaccuracy. He missed several open, hittable (for him) throws today, just as he did in week 1 against Miami.
Let's talk about Mac's poor reads and decision-making. His one interception came on a ball where he threw deep for Parker, covered by a LB. That makes sense except Mac obviously had no idea that that LB had safety help in the form of Minkah Fitzpatrick who came down with the easy INT. On a different play, Mac, scrambling, hits a Pittsburgh defender right in the numbers, but the ball was dropped. According to the announcers and to twitter, Mac also did not see some open receivers.
Let's talk about Mac's struggles to get the team to the line and run plays cleanly. The Pats offense had several mistakes of the false start/delay of game/need to burn a time out variety. While a false start is not 100% on the QB (a different player is the guy who jumped), it is an indication that the offense - Mac's offense - is not running smoothly. Same for the delays and being foced to burn time outs.
Whatever the reason, this guy is a mistake-prone mess right now. I'll come back to the arm just to say this: not having a cannon reduces some margin for error. Mac can't afford to miss open throws he can hit, canot afford not to know where the safeties are, cannot afford to lose yards or time outs because he cannot get the team set in time.
Maybe some of this is defenses adjusting to what he did well last year? But he doesn't look like a guy who can lead an NFL team to 11 wins, a thing he actually did accomplish last year.
I mentioned it in the Gameball thread, but it feels like he's in his head about pressure. He's seeing/feeling pressure that is not there.
Two decades of Tom Brady is a tough act to follow, it seems. Mac certainly hasn't been great so far this year, but I'll reserve judgment until we have a sample size of regular season games that doesn't consist entirely of: (1) in Miami, where NE always seems to find new and creative ways to play poorly and lose games, regardless of who is playing QB; and (2) in Pittsburg, against a pretty good D.
That said, given how awful Baltimore looked on D this week, I would certainly hope to see better execution and more points from Mac next week....
That said, given how awful Baltimore looked on D this week, I would certainly hope to see better execution and more points from Mac next week....
Its fair to acknowledge his limitations and flaws. However there is a small group in the gamethreads, mostly lurkers, who just repeatedly post the same criticisms of Mac over and over during the game.
Its just general anxiety fed posting with no actual content other than something along the lines of "Mac is not THE guy". I am not referring to specific complaints about a play or decision making - those are valid. These folks may well be right but its still premature to write Jones off by just about any measure. Especially after a win where he didn't play great but also wasn't terrible.
Depends what people's reactions are. In the gamethread, yeah.
In this thread, I don't think people are.
If anything I think people are jumping in to downplay his struggles. Mac Jones was bad this week. He needed a great catch on a bad throw by Agholor to get to 250 yards on 35 attempts in a game where he had great blocking. It's not just the bad throws that are the issue to many people, it's that he has bad throws, bad decisions, and way way too many checkdowns and short throws out of great pockets. Mac is bringing very little upside right now, he's giving you the type of performance you expect out of your backup when you're trying to sneak through a week without your starter if you have a good D.
Through 2 games, Mac has 65 passes attempted, for 465 yards 2 TDs and 2 INT. Those are attrocious numbers.That AY/A last year would have put him 27th in the league, just ahead of Ben Roethlisberger's corpse, just behind Daniel Jones and Taylor Heineke. The TD%... 27th in the league, just ahead of Daniel Jones, way behind Roethlisberger for 26th. The INT%... tied for 27th with Taylor Heineke just better than Baker, just worse than Zach Wilson.
Yes it's been 2 games, but they were almost identical production, and that production was very bottom of the league last year, only 2 QBs were worse in all 3 categories... Justin Fields and Sam Darnold.
So while it is early, it should be quite concerning that against 2 mediocre defenses, Mac has turned in identical bad games, and honestly, has looked like it.
Since I criticized him earlier, some credit where it is due:
View: https://twitter.com/TimBenzPGH/status/1571602023044509696?s=20&t=44MxWiZhCcj221Ph6PzgbA
Tim Benz: Malik Reed credited Mac Jones for checking out of (& into) various plays at the line of scrimmage on the final drive. "He was seeing what we were in. He is pretty smart. Once they had a feel for our adjustments, they were able to counteract those things," Reed said. Highsmith echoed this, noticing when Jones checked and ended up running away from the tight end
View: https://twitter.com/TimBenzPGH/status/1571602023044509696?s=20&t=44MxWiZhCcj221Ph6PzgbA
Tim Benz: Malik Reed credited Mac Jones for checking out of (& into) various plays at the line of scrimmage on the final drive. "He was seeing what we were in. He is pretty smart. Once they had a feel for our adjustments, they were able to counteract those things," Reed said. Highsmith echoed this, noticing when Jones checked and ended up running away from the tight end
Maybe expectations were unrealistic, but I hoped that an off-season getting his body right and working with a throwing coach on his mechanics would lead to some modest gains on arm strength in certain situations. He is always going to be a touch finesse passer but I was curious to see if when throwing an out or the deep ball that there was a little more oomph on the ball. I haven’t seen one throw in two games which gives me any indication that there has been any noticeable improvement in arm strength. It may be related but I haven’t seen him step into many throws this year and he has a clean pocket all day today. He is feeling pressure that is not there.
Brady was looking like he wasn’t THE MAN in ‘02. Isn’t it pretty standard for 2nd year QB’s to struggle more than 1st year* at the seat?
*Jones started right in as an actual rookie. Pretty standard for rookies to sit and watch
*Jones started right in as an actual rookie. Pretty standard for rookies to sit and watch
Seriously, people need to breath and give him some time, he's just starting his second season after all. People were expecting him to suddenly turn into a mini Brady immediately. It's not apples to apples, but go look at Josh Allen's second year stats. If this was the start of year 4, sure maybe worry, but it's way too soon to think he's not the answer. It kinda runs parallel to how people are looking at Bloom's time with the Red Sox. Sometimes it takes a couple years to reset a roster or develop a young QB, and there will be a ton of growing pains and ups and downs. Anyone watching the C's the last few years knows this with Tatum's yearly slump before a jump
I am pretty sure Brady led the league in touchdown passes in 2002.
Edit - not trying to compare Mac to Brady. Probably not fair to compare anyone to Brady. I am just saying that Brady looked decent in 2002.
After 2 weeks in 2002, Brady had 5 TDs. He finished first in TDs thrown for the season that year.
edit: @heavyde050 you damn ninja!
Shit. My memory is garbage- should have looked it up. I guess the team played pretty badly- 9-7…..
Everybody gets one....I guess that was mine. LOL.
I remember the opening game against Pittsburgh that year. I never would have guessed that team would finish 9-7.
Didnt Tommy have some elbow problems. 2002 was the year the Jets got super hot and Pennington beat a bunch of stud QBs in a row to end the season and open the playoffs(Brady, Favre, Manning) before going to Cali and losing to the Raiders tuck rule revenge tour.
Yeah Favre couldn’t beat the Jets to help the Pats get into the playoffs… then in week 17 2008 Favre couldn’t win FOR the Jets to help the Pats get into the playoffs. Favre losing those two games cost the Pats their only two missed playoff appearances from 2001-2019.
Fuck Brett Favre.
Edit: that being said, thank you to the Jets for that 41-0 ass kicking of Manning. That was almost as fun as Super Bowl 48.
The “arm strength” issue to me doesn’t seem like a problem with the actual strength of his arm, but it's almost entirely a fuction of poor mechanics. He's not stepping into to pocket and squaring up. I imagine the fact his OL was utter garbage week 1 affected him mentally, as did perhaps his injury, but it's a mental hurdle he's going to have to clear to regain some of his form. I think the playcalling is also not great, though I'm willing to give them a bit more time there. Clearly they did some work with the OL this week that paid off.
This is such a great footnote.Brett Favre is a major player in Patriots history. These two, plus the Super Bowl, obviously.
I'm not looking for him to turn into Brady, I am looking for him not to significantly regress year 2. If he looked like last year I'd be less concerned, it would be disappointing not to come back improved after an offseason, but not too concerning, he looks worse than last year, and that's a concern and should be.
As to your Allen comparison... it not only isn't apples to apples it's totally pointless. Wildly different players and skillsets, and Allen was terrible as a rookie and improved year 2 (his first 2 games of 2019 were better than most of his 2018 starts.
Yes 2 games into year 2 is way too early to make long term decisions, but year 2 is a key one, year 3 is usually when you make a decision based off the body of work and the trends. If this was year 4 we'd already have a QB competitor in camp, the NFL cycles are too quick to burn 4 years on a guy you aren't sure about without already having a plan for what's next.
And of course he threw the interception deep in his own territory on the first possession of overtime in the 2008 NFC Championship, setting up Tynes' 47-yard game winner.
Had Favre scored on that drive instead of throwing the pick, the undefeated Patriots would have faced Mike McCarthy's Packers, and not Manning/Coughlin/Tyree/etc., in SB XLII.
Yup. You beat me to this. I was rooting so hard for the Packers in that game. We would have smoked them in the SB and you knew after Week 17 that the Giants would be tough.
Fair. Though you kinda highlight a point that seems to happen on this forum. My point wasn't comparing Allen's skillset to Mac, but the fact that year 2 doesn't make the QB. People seem to want to look for the inaccuracies of a comparison, while I admitted they weren't the same player, than the overall point. I would say Mac's year 1 was better than Allen's year 2. It would seem Mac's ceiling isn't as high as Allen's, but then again I bet Mac's perceived ceiling is higher than Brady's was after his first full played season. I just think people need to give him some more time before thinking he's not the answer
He also finished tied for 23rd in Y/A that year, and the team went 9-7. It was Brady's worst year by most metrics that mean anything, TD pass count notwithstanding.
yeah, but it matters because, you would EXPECT a lower ceiling polished guy like Mac to be better early than Allen who was all raw tools, and you would expect a steeper improvement curve. Comparing how good they were isn't that important. In particular I think it's key if you want to make that comparison not to look at raw numbers, but trends. Allen broke out year 3, but his year 2 was a huge improvement from year 1, he drastically increased completion %, TD%, INT%, AY/A all of it.... his completion % went from 53 to 59, his TD % went from 3.1% to 4.3%, he almost cut the INT in half (3.8% to 2%).
Mac was more ready now, but he still has to improve to be a guy you want long term. I wouldn't expect a year 2 jump like Allen's (that would take Mac to 74% comp, 5.8% TD, 1.3 INT%) that was a huge jump, followed by another huge jump in year 3. But that's why people pointing to Allen as a "year 2 isn't make or break" not only are comparing totally different types of QBs, they are ignoring that the mediocre numbers from Allen in year 2 represented an incredibly promising trendline, the Bills looked at year 2 and said "oh shit, this guy is making huge progress on turning his great tools into production, he could be a superstar"
wouldn't go quite that far, is ANY/A went up because he took way fewer sacks, his INT% went down and TD% went up, it was a bumpy year as his first at a higher volume (2001 he only threw 413 passes) but it was more a leveling with some better some worse than a regression.
The lengths people are going to justify Mac's play is astounding - Allen and Brady sucked in year 2 is asinine. Mac isn't even close to those guys and never flashed anything special in year 1 other than being able to run a very basic offense on a good team. He's also in a much different league than Brady was, one that heavily favors passing and so far he's proven he can't pass in this league. Mac Jones has been trash for 20 games now.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that his regression can be partially blamed on the offensive upheaval and changes. If he's not showing progress by mid-year, then I will lose a ton of hope.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that his regression can be partially blamed on the offensive upheaval and changes. If he's not showing progress by mid-year, then I will lose a ton of hope.
All offseason we talked (and talked) about how the apparent lack of an offensive coordinator might show up in how Mac processed things this season, particularly early, and we're seeing some of that. The cohesion with McDaniels gave Mac room to grow as a rookie, and with any luck as the season progresses this aspect will improve so that focusing on his strengths will improve his play.
The bigger, non physical attribute, to me is it already appears that the passing game already has cut out Parker, the tight ends and the running backs. Whether that's a management choice or Mac's comfort level is immaterial. More options gives him a better chance of not playing to the stress of always looking for Meyers or Alghior.
The arm strength and accuracy issues are what they are. But the team should be game-planning to minimize those, and I think we see this in how the scripted drives are succeeding.
Mac's a work in progress. The offense is a work in progress. Making any definitive declarations about his future at this stage is silly.
The bigger, non physical attribute, to me is it already appears that the passing game already has cut out Parker, the tight ends and the running backs. Whether that's a management choice or Mac's comfort level is immaterial. More options gives him a better chance of not playing to the stress of always looking for Meyers or Alghior.
The arm strength and accuracy issues are what they are. But the team should be game-planning to minimize those, and I think we see this in how the scripted drives are succeeding.
Mac's a work in progress. The offense is a work in progress. Making any definitive declarations about his future at this stage is silly.
Mac Jones was 14th in Y/A last year as a true rookie, compared to the GOAT being 23rd as a red shirt first year starter in the same category. Because we're ranking against their contemporaries, the passing era that Tom and Mac started in is normalized.
Of course, comparing anyone to the GOAT is nonsensical on its face, but if you give up on a guy after a year and a half you're missing the point. If you want to hang on Tom being sui generis, check out Drew Brees's first two years numbers as a starter compared against his peers. They're ghastly. Then in year four, as a 25yo, he had a great year, followed by a bit of a regression year at 26. Fast forward to 80K passing yards and 571TD.
Lose hope at your peril.
So I am critical of Mac this year, but yeah he was a perfectly average QB last year (I wouldn't use raw Y/A, it's not a great metric but by the adjusted metrics he was around 17 or so) which for a rookie is good.
Question is, what kind of improvement will he make, because there have been a number of guys who were mediocre QBs as rookies and never got better.
The constant cherrypicking out of a few 20+ year ago elite QBs is dumb though, whether it's Brady or Brees. Those guys are by their nature outliers, and they usually are guys who played in a different era, one with less passing, and one where practice time was very different, defenders and defenses were different (and less athletic), it's just not a good way to comp guys.