The new look OL

Who starts at C and the 2 G spots: Pick 3

  • Chris Barker

    Votes: 6 4.7%
  • Marcus Cannon

    Votes: 70 55.1%
  • Braxston Cave

    Votes: 45 35.4%
  • Dan Connolly

    Votes: 6 4.7%
  • Jordan Devey

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cameron Fleming

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jon Halapio

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Josh Kline

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bryan Stork

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ryan Wendell

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    127

Kenny F'ing Powers

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lambeau said:
Jeff Howe speculated in today's Herald that Wendell might be under consideration--but to replace Cannon, not Connelly.http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2014/09/patriots_notebook_bryan_stork_ready_to_deliver_at
A lot of speculation that Stork will start Monday.
 
Wendell was good in his 20ish snaps before injury this season. Such a small sample size, but the difference between him and Connolly at center was night and day. 
 
Getting Connolly back to RG fixes some problems, especially if Stork can handle center. Cannon has been less then inspiring at left guard, and giving Wendell a shot there is worth a try. It's surprising, though, considering how adamant they were that Wendell was a C and not a guard. Desperate times/desperate measures...
 

Super Nomario

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
 
Wendell was good in his 20ish snaps before injury this season. Such a small sample size, but the difference between him and Connolly at center was night and day. 
 
Getting Connolly back to RG fixes some problems, especially if Stork can handle center. Cannon has been less then inspiring at left guard, and giving Wendell a shot there is worth a try. It's surprising, though, considering how adamant they were that Wendell was a C and not a guard. Desperate times/desperate measures...
Wendell's small; at his Pro Day he was 6'2" 286. I'm sure he's put on some weight since then, but he's still small to play anywhere but C. I think Wendell at C and Stork at LG would be a more likely combination. It seems like DeGuglielmo likes his guards big - Cannon and Devey are huge, Slauson was big (Brandon Moore wasn't), John Jerry is massive, Incognito's big - pretty much all of his guards have been large, at least larger than Scarnecchia's were.
 

m0ckduck

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File under 'I'm not sure whether to laugh or to cry':
 
Former Patriots quarterback and local pundit Scott Zolak had scathing words about Devey. “Right now it’s a talent issue. This isn’t coaching,” Zolak said. “If you can’t bend at the hips, or it looks like you’ve never been laid, you’ve got no hope.” That’s the meanest thing I’ve ever heard anybody say about an offensive lineman before. “I’ve seen enough of Jordan Devey. He can’t play,” Zolak added. Wait, maybe that’s the meanest thing.
 
 
 Bill Barnwell quoting Scott Zolak
 

lambeau

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I'm a little surprised two rookies will have their first starts ever against the KC pass rush while the crowd tries to set a noise record--should be interesting.
 

MainerInExile

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The most surprising thing to me is Kline still won't play.  I thought he was a lock at LG when Mankins was traded.  Now we're on our 2nd interior line version, and he's still nowhere to be found.  Whose daughter did he sleep with?
 

Tony C

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It is odd, and definitely a tough place for Fleming and Stork to make their debuts (and isn't a bit odd that Connolly is at LG rather than RG? Not that it much matters). That said, assuming this report is correct, they can't be worse -- I had a sense Fleming would be starting sooner rather than later, he looked pretty good in preseason -- certainly better than Devey, for god's sake. And Cannon is obviously a good swing OT and not a guard. Hard to be too optimistic given the quality of opposition and the crowd, but if they survive tonight then the Pats will be in business. I think at this point the cool kids add something like" #don'tholdyourbreath
 

j44thor

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Is this the worst OL in the BB/Brady era?  Sure feels that way through 4 games.
Part regression, part talent, part coaching equals a lot of suck.
 

jsinger121

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Thought they protected a bit better tonight outside if Solder. Wonder if they should flip Vollmer and Solder.
 

j44thor

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jsinger121 said:
Thought they protected a bit better tonight outside if Solder. Wonder if they should flip Vollmer and Solder.
 
Yeah they didn't completely suck tonight, they just sucked bad.  Lowering the bar to offer faint praise isn't really giving me the warm and fuzzies.
 

Stitch01

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jsinger121 said:
Thought they protected a bit better tonight outside if Solder. Wonder if they should flip Vollmer and Solder.
Yeah agreed, run game wasn't great but at first glance thought protection was better. Might start working in Cannon at tackle some, Solder was terrible again.
 

soxfan121

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Someone write a piece explaining how Nate Solder went from LT of the future to a guy I want benched?
 

HomeRunBaker

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jsinger121 said:
Thought they protected a bit better tonight outside if Solder. Wonder if they should flip Vollmer and Solder.
I think the play calling made it very deceiving that we were bettee tonight......our OL still sucks. The bubble screens and the quick hitters slows down the pass rush. Whenever Brady was in an obvious passing situation he either got hit or was about to get hit prior to running for his life.
 

nazz45

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soxfan121 said:
Someone write a piece explaining how Nate Solder went from LT of the future to a guy I want benched?
Well, for starters, it looked like he had no idea what to do against a defensive end lined up in a 9-technique. Usually, you try to at least over commit to the outside so that the end spins to the inside - this at least buys your QB a second. Or, if it's a three step drop, you just try to cut block the defender since you know the ball is coming out quick. It looked like Solder couldn't move his feet and was swatting a fly. Hali did get off the line fast (perhaps too fast).
 
I will say, when the ends line up wide of the tackle like that, Brady should notice and have the back stay in to chip (or run a shovel pass as they did earlier). They had the tight end on the right side of the formation in line to help. But I also suppose that your "LT of the future" needs to be better than that one on one.
 

Harry Hooper

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I made a joke upthread about false start penalties playing in KC, but I believe the OL did not have one of those in the game.
 

Stitch01

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Alternate approach of just letting the defender run free before you move wasn't really a great success at tackle though
 

Tony C

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soxfan121 said:
Someone write a piece explaining how Nate Solder went from LT of the future to a guy I want benched?
 
That's a piece I would definitely read. But no way could I write it. Absolutely inexplicable.
 
HomeRunBaker said:
I think the play calling made it very deceiving that we were bettee tonight......our OL still sucks. The bubble screens and the quick hitters slows down the pass rush. Whenever Brady was in an obvious passing situation he either got hit or was about to get hit prior to running for his life.
 
That's simply false. There was a good rush on Brady today no doubt, the OL was far from perfect, but there wasn't the push up the middle he's been getting and there were plenty of plays where he threw to covered receivers when he still had plenty of time to check down.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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tims4wins said:
Think they have to try Vollmer at LT and Cannon at RT next week. Can't keep putting Solder out there.
 
As much as Solder looked bad on the whiff, he was the best graded OL (not saying much) last night per PFF:
  • LT Solder: 0.6 overall / 0.2 pass block
  • RT Vollmer: 0.4 / 1.1
  • LG Wendell: 0.0 / -0.1
Problem according to PFF was this group:
  • C Stork: -1.6 / -0.2
  • LG: Connelly: -2.7 / -2.4
  • RG: Fleming: -4.4 / -4.2
Fleming flamed out. OL is often said to be as good as it's weakest link. Right now there are a lot of weak links.
 

Toe Nash

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j44thor said:
 
Yeah they didn't completely suck tonight, they just sucked bad.  Lowering the bar to offer faint praise isn't really giving me the warm and fuzzies.
Signs of improvement from a line with lots of new faces against a good pass-rushing D  is a bad thing now?
 
They're not going to become great overnight, but they played better last night. Cincy is a huge test but I'm fine with steady progress.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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j44thor said:
Yeah they didn't completely suck tonight, they just sucked bad.  Lowering the bar to offer faint praise isn't really giving me the warm and fuzzies.
 
Except that's not what jsinger wrote in the post you're referring to. 
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Just what my eyes told me (which should be the first sign that tells you to ignore this post) Solder and Vollmer have been leaning inside and their first step out is a half second slow because of that. 
 
Perhaps they can't respond to the talented 9-tech rushes (Hali, Wake) because in part they have to help inside. From Devey to now Fleming & Connolly (who's battling injuries) the guards have been the albatross to me. 
 

SMU_Sox

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The thing about pff is that it doesn't adjust for quality of opponent. The Pats went against one of the best (if not the best) defensive lines and front sevens in the NFL. While they didn't have a good performance I have a hard time pinning too much on the line except for a few abysmal plays.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Bringing Incognito in would be a controversial but a logical football move. He'll immediately the best guard on this team. 
 
If folks saw the move as a last-ditch panic move, well so be it. I think it's time. 
 

Stitch01

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A guy who hasnt played football in a year, wasn't super good to begin with, and is a terrible guy off the field?  Cant say Im fired up about that.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Stitch01 said:
A guy who hasnt played football in a year, wasn't super good to begin with, and is a terrible guy off the field?  Cant say Im fired up about that.
He's been out of football for a year, sure. But he was one of the better guards in the league and more importantly, he's much more likely to be better than Connolly/Wendell/Devey/Fleming. And by a fairly large margin by the time December rolls around.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Mark Schofield said:
Let's play a game. It's called "What is Sebastian Vollmer Looking At?"
 
It looks like he had Kansas City's defense on his fantasy team.
 

mascho

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And the blitzer (Husain Adbullah - man he had an incredible game) didn't do anything fancy. He was just off the line of scrimmage presnap. It isn't like he came from nowhere.
 

JerBear

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jsinger121 said:
Thought they protected a bit better tonight outside if Solder. Wonder if they should flip Vollmer and Solder.
 
Stitch01 said:
Yeah agreed, run game wasn't great but at first glance thought protection was better. Might start working in Cannon at tackle some, Solder was terrible again.
 
 
soxfan121 said:
Someone write a piece explaining how Nate Solder went from LT of the future to a guy I want benched?
 
tims4wins said:
Think they have to try Vollmer at LT and Cannon at RT next week. Can't keep putting Solder out there.
 
Outside of the obvious whiff on Hali who got an incredible jump, where there other plays any of you remember standing out?
 

Stitch01

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That is not the only time you will see a Pats OL just standing around blocking no one if you go back and look at the film this year.  Its pretty sad.
 
I also enjoyed Jordan Devey's work on Ridley's early TD run in Minnesota.  Whiff the first block, try to go the second level and fall down and whiff again.
 

mascho

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"See Lisa? Right here is the moment Brady's heart breaks pants get filled with poop."
 
This is the Houston strip sack, 3rd play of 3rd quarter. Bailey beats Fleming silly and Houston beats a Vollmer block/White chip.  They have 5 OL to block, 2 RBs to chip, and they can't protect against a four man rush.
 

nazz45

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Since this is a team sport, it's important to never pin blame on one guy... so here's one where we can blame multiple players!
 
It's 3rd and 2 on the KC 42 so the Patriots obviously go shotgun with 4 wide (2 to each side) and Vereen lined up off set to Brady's left pre-snap. Just before the snap, Gronkowski, who was lined up wide right (off the line of scrimmage), motions between the tackle (Vollmer) and slot receiver (Lafell) as he will go for a lead/kick out block on the backer (Houston).
 
First off, it's not a bad run design and block scheme as Vollmer and Stork are going to pull to the run side and basically provide 4 blockers at the point of attack against 3 defenders to start. The first key is that Fleming (right guard) delivers a perfectly fine drive block to the tackle (Poe) lined up over him.
 


About that kick out block that Gronk is set to deliver on Houston... looks good, I mean, Gronk is a bit off balance but he'll at least get a hat on him and we can also see Fleming doing his thing on Poe with Vollmer and Stork pulling to the right and Lafell (not pictured) has pinned his defender so this looks promising... oh wait...
 

 
First off, credit to Houston as he quickly recognizes Gronk just before the snap of the ball. He basically side steps Gronk like a matador. Also notice that Stork has made almost no progress in his pull and Vollmer is not much quicker but now he also has to take on Houston, who because of the failed block by Gronk, has not lost position or any down hill momentum.
 

 
But even despite Gronk's whiff, this still looks somewhat promising, but stillframes lie. Stork is lining up the backer (Mauga)... or is the backer lining up Stork? And Vollmer appears to have Houston pinned towards the inside, which would give Vereen enough time and space to make the corner. In fact, with Gronk and Lafell now as second level blockers, this could even be a big gainer... oh wait...
 

 
To use a common football term, things went to shit. Stork gets absolutely blown up by Mauga and Vollmer pushes Houston to the outside, which is the exact direction that Vereen is now heading. Even Poe has gotten off the Fleming block by now, which forces Vereen further outside, delaying his cut up field. I can't get on Fleming too much here, though - Poe is really good and single blocking him for three seconds as he did is a win. But the end result is a no gain run and a 4th down punt.
 

 
I would assume the original intention of this run design was for Vereen to follow Gronk's kick out block and run between the pulling Stork and Vollmer. However, because Gronk slipped on a banana peel and did not disrupt Houston, and because Stork was slow in his pull and demolished by Mauga, and because Vollmer, unable to see what had gone wrong behind him, didn't realize that forcing Houston outside only derailed any chance for Vereen to make the corner and pick up the first down.
 
Now that's teamwork.
 
Edit - Will fix images so you can actually see them
 

Harry Hooper

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Mark Schofield said:
 They have 5 OL to block, 2 RBs to chip, and they can't protect against a four man rush.
 
 
There was quite a bit of this last year too. Even 3-man pass rushes were disrupting Brady too often.
 

nazz45

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Another example of what Brady is working with or, more accurately, against. We have 2nd and 3 from the NE 34. Let me emphasis that the line of scrimmage is the 34.
 
The Patriots go shotgun with two receivers to Brady's right (Lafell split end with Edelman in the slot) and two tight ends to his left with Ridley off set right as the single back. The Patriots are using a tight-wing formation on the left with Gronkowski and Hoomanawanui.
 

 
First off, this is generally a run formation. Football can be both simple and a chess match - sometimes you show run and you run (power) and sometimes you show run and play fake into a pass (finesse). This play was neither of those.
 

 
The Chiefs are in their base 3-4 defense with a single high safety (while the other safety is ready to pick up Gronk if he releases into a route after the chip from the backer).
 

 
At the snap, Gronk stays in to block the outside backer and Hooman decides to just squat and watch him. Instead of rushing one of the outside backers, the Chiefs run a little stunt with the middle backer crossing with the left end and nose tackle. Stork is beaten badly by the stunt and receives late (read: no) help from Fleming. In fact, no one Patriot actually holds their block for more than a second aside from Gronk, completely away from the action. As the play progresses, Ridley, who had stayed in to block, releases into the flat where he is picked up by Houston.
 
If you can recall, the line of scrimmage was the NE 34. Brady received the snap from the shotgun at about the NE 29. And this is where Brady ends up because of the immediate pressure up the middle.
 

 
He delivers a pass off his back foot from just beyond the NE 15. As for his receiving options on the pass play...
 

 
Lafell is running a dig/square-in route and Edelman appears to run an out-and-up route. Both are well covered. Edelman, not quite seen in the shot above, is actually open on the out part of the pattern but, given the jailbreak facing Brady, he is not an option on the slow developing route. Ridley is also covered tightly in the flat (the ball would eventually be thrown incomplete in his direction - essentially a throw away).
 
I don't think the screen grab above gives justice to the amount of pressure Brady was facing - he had three free rushers coming right at him from the start, with no passing lanes, with no time to step up into a throw, nothing. His first read here, either Lafell or Edelman, were running medium to deep routes that needed some time to develop. And his safety valve (Ridley) did not get much separation.
 
But then, back to the tight ends. Hooman is still watching (I mean, has he even taken a step in any direction) and Gronk never releases as a receiving option. The play is FUBAR from the start so Brady never looks to the tight-wing side of the formation anyway. I am really not sure what either was supposed to do here, but they may have well played with 10 players on this play design given the statue-like performance from Hooman.
 
The little red dots in the last screenshot show the LOS, where Brady received the snap, where Brady is and where he ends up throwing it. I had to review this 10 times to make sure I wasn't screwing up the the original LOS. In sum, the Patriots essentially leave 8 in to block 4 rushers and simply can't buy Brady any time. The design of this play from the start was puzzling (what is Hooman supposed to be doing aside from watching Gronk's backside?) and the execution was abysmal.