The OC Search

tims4wins

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Caley landing the Jets OC job would feel like a real indictment of some or all of BB, Mac, and/or the Patriots offense as a whole. Or it would be a real indictment of the Jets.
Or Caley, if the Pats had two chances to hire him as OC and didn’t make an offer either time.
 

Shelterdog

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Caley landing the Jets OC job would feel like a real indictment of some or all of BB, Mac, and/or the Patriots offense as a whole. Or it would be a real indictment of the Jets.
Caley might go on to great things but I think it's very clear that BB doesn't view him as a future OC. In the rough hierarchy of offensive assistants, coordinator is first, QB second, then you can argue about the others--and Caley had been here for seven years and BB opted to insert both Patricia as play caller but also Judge as QB coach ahead of Caley.

McDaniels also could have taken Caley as his OC if he wanted (and I guess he wanted Caley at a TE coach) but opted for Lombardi instead.

I'm sure they'd rather keep him than lose him but (unlike Bedard who's made some noise about this) I wouldn't get too upset about losing this guy.

EDIT: Also what do we think about the TE/FB performance the past couple of years? "Cuz that's Caley's job.
 
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Mystic Merlin

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Caley might go on to great things but I think it's very clear that BB doesn't view him as a future OC. In the rough hierarchy of offensive assistants, coordinator is first, QB second, then you can argue about the others--and Caley had been here for seven years and BB opted to insert both Patricia as play caller but also Judge as QB coach ahead of Caley.

McDaniels also could have taken Caley as his OC if he wanted (and I guess he wanted Caley at a TE coach) but opted for Lombardi instead.

I'm sure they'd rather keep him than lose him but (unlike Bedard who's made some noise about this) I wouldn't get too upset about losing this guy.
I can’t tell if Caley is a Bedard source (would he be that obvious about carrying water?) or if Bedard genuinely thinks Caley should be the choice.

Anyways, I agree that, unlike Mayo, he seemingly isn’t a guy Belichick sees as a rising star/a fit for OC. That doesn’t mean Belichick is correct to think that, but it’s a fair inference to make.

I wonder if interviewing Caley is about throwing him a bone by boosting his rep for other suitors even if they have no intention of hiring him. I believe his contract is set to expire after he rebuffed and extension offer last year, or at least that’s what Bedard has reported a few times on podcasts/radio spots. That fact is the biggest reason I think Caley may a Bedard source, actually.
 

Shelterdog

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I can’t tell if Caley is a Bedard source (would he be that obvious about carrying water?) or if Bedard genuinely thinks Caley should be the choice.

Anyways, I agree that, unlike Mayo, he seemingly isn’t a guy Belichick sees as a rising star/a fit for OC. That doesn’t mean Belichick is correct to think that, but it’s a fair inference to make.
A third option is that Bedard doesn't believe it but thinks he can use it to make a legitimate sounding tough critique of the Pats/criticism of Patricia and Judge. The argument that Caley would be a better candidate than Judge/Patricia has at least superficial appeal because Caley did haver seven years experience as an offensive coach for the Pats as opposed to roughly one year of offensive coaching each for Patricia and Judge.

I think there are some crusty old area scouts giving him stuff so that's why he's so willing to say "people in the building think X" but has so little actual information.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Re: Mayo, it has been interesting to learn in the past week that he's a LOT more involved in crafting than D than I had understood previously. I'm totally spacing on the analyst who said this on the Toucher & Rich show (maybe Reis?) but it was that while Steve literally "calls IN the plays" that doesn't mean he was always calling the plays, and that Mayo had a lot to do with that. Also that he presented each week's defensive structure to the players and then allowed them to contribute input within their spheres.
Either you have me on ignore, our T&R have been reading my posts:

Personally, I believe Mayo is the closest thing on this team to the DC. Steve might be calling the plays, but he ain't the only one wearing a headset. A lot of folks talk about how Steve calls the plays, but that's not really how the Pats have ever described it. Steve "calls in" the plays, but Mayo and others are giving him input throughout.

A couple years back, people were saying Steve was calling the plays, but the NFL rulebook only allows coaches to be connected to the QB and defensive captain from the sideline. You can't communicate directly with a player from the booth. Steve was in the booth a lot at that time.

I told the story again last week in the other thread. BB loves Jerod Mayo. Loves him. I think keeping him here is a massive priority for BB, and this public announcement reiterates that. Mayo admitted last season to having DC opportunities that he turned down (the Browns I think specifically), and not even 3-4 days ago, Mayo was talking about pursuing interviews. BB does not want him going anywhere.

View attachment 60024
If folks were watching the other night, Dan Quinn, the DC for the Cowboys was in the booth. He literally cannot call plays from the booth to the player on the field, it is not allowed under NFL rules. But the idea that he doesn't have input on the plays being relayed to the players is well, not believable. Mayo always has a heads set and unlike Steve B. who has spent quite a bit of time in the booth over the years (how many shots of Steve's mullet in the booth have we seen?) Mayo has always been on the sidelines. Mayo and BB are directly involved in calling plays, this season, it's just that they gave the job of calling them into the defensive captain to Steve.
 
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8slim

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Either you have me on ignore, our T&R have been reading my posts:



If folks were watching the other night, Dan Quinn, the DC for the Cowboys was in the booth. He literally cannot call plays from the booth to the player on the field, it is not allowed under NFL rules. But the idea that he doesn't have input on the plays being relayed to the players is well, not believable. Mayo always has a heads set and unlike Steve B. who has spent quite a bit of time in the booth over the years (how many shots of Steve's mullet in the booth have we seen?) Mayo has always been on the sidelines. Mayo and BB are directly involved in calling plays, this season, it's just that they gave the job of calling them into the defensive captain to Steve.
Hey man, take it up with Mike Reis. ;)
 

Deathofthebambino

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Note the difference in the headline "Calling plays for Patriots is an important job" vs. what Steve B. actually says in the article:


https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2022/08/steve-belichick-calling-plays-for-patriots-is-a-pretty-important-job.html

“I think it’s a pretty important job,” Steve Belichick said. “It’s one person’s voice that’s going into the signal color. But we all work here together. We all do a job together. Sometimes it could seem like a big deal or some people would make more of it than what it is. We all know what our jobs are on the defensive side of the ball. I’m sure they do on the offensive side of the ball. We enjoy what we’re doing right now.”
 

8slim

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Just messing with you, obviously. I'm always surprised at the lack of knowledge some of these guys have. I swear 90% of the NFL beat reporters have no idea that a coach can't be connected to the QB/Defensive Captain from the booth.
When did that booth/play call rule go into effect? The other day I was thinking about how back in the day it used to be that almost every OC/DC was up in the booth, and now none of them are. I didn't realize it was likely due to a rule change.
 

Deathofthebambino

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When did that booth/play call rule go into effect? The other day I was thinking about how back in the day it used to be that almost every OC/DC was up in the booth, and now none of them are. I didn't realize it was likely due to a rule change.
Actually, it looks like the rule changed the other way. This is in the 2022 rule book:

The Coach-to-Player system allows a member of the coaching staff in the bench area or the coaches’ booth to communicate to a designated offensive or defensive player with a speaker in his helmet.

But every link I can find prior to 2022 says this:

https://gethypedsports.com/do-football-players-have-speakers-microphones-in-their-helmet/

Can Any Coach Talk To The Quarterback Or Defensive Player?
No, the coach talking to the player must be a sidelined coach – meaning the coach in the booth cannot communicate with any player on the field through a speaker in a helmet.



FTR, the NFL rule book is completely insane.
 

Kliq

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EDIT: Also what do we think about the TE/FB performance the past couple of years? "Cuz that's Caley's job.
Yeah, I suppose there is some sort of gap between performance and potential as a play caller, but the general rule is that assistant coaches and coordinators that have their teams playing impressive football tend to get the looks for promotions. Like DeMeco Ryans is getting head coaching looks because the 49ers have the best defense in football.

The Patriots TE play over the past couple of years has been awful, despite ample investment in both free agency and the draft. How is Caley a serious candidate for anything except a pink slip?
 

8slim

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Actually, it looks like the rule changed the other way. This is in the 2022 rule book:

The Coach-to-Player system allows a member of the coaching staff in the bench area or the coaches’ booth to communicate to a designated offensive or defensive player with a speaker in his helmet.

But every link I can find prior to 2022 says this:

https://gethypedsports.com/do-football-players-have-speakers-microphones-in-their-helmet/

Can Any Coach Talk To The Quarterback Or Defensive Player?
No, the coach talking to the player must be a sidelined coach – meaning the coach in the booth cannot communicate with any player on the field through a speaker in a helmet.



FTR, the NFL rule book is completely insane.
Interesting. But most OCs are on the field these days, right? I feel like shots of coordinators up in the booth were ubiquitous back in the 80s/90s.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Yeah, I suppose there is some sort of gap between performance and potential as a play caller, but the general rule is that assistant coaches and coordinators that have their teams playing impressive football tend to get the looks for promotions. Like DeMeco Ryans is getting head coaching looks because the 49ers have the best defense in football.

The Patriots TE play over the past couple of years has been awful, despite ample investment in both free agency and the draft. How is Caley a serious candidate for anything except a pink slip?
I want nothing to do with Caley or Bevell as OC. Not sure yet about the other names on that list.

Bevell, in particular. As an OC, he hasn't had a team finish in the top 20 in rushing yards since 2015. When Beast Mode was no longer a beast, he forgot how to coach a running attack.

He hasn't had a team finish better than 10th in passing yards since 2009, despite having peak Russell Wilson in Seattle, Stafford in Detroit, and the 1 year with Urban Mayer/Trevor Lawrence in Jacksonville.

I just think Bevell is another guy who's been around a long time and continues to get jobs, but doesn't seem to be on the upswing like some of the young talent around the league.
 

Shelterdog

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Yeah, I suppose there is some sort of gap between performance and potential as a play caller, but the general rule is that assistant coaches and coordinators that have their teams playing impressive football tend to get the looks for promotions. Like DeMeco Ryans is getting head coaching looks because the 49ers have the best defense in football.

The Patriots TE play over the past couple of years has been awful, despite ample investment in both free agency and the draft. How is Caley a serious candidate for anything except a pink slip?
Is this a serious question? Presumably BB (and Josh McD who wanted to poach him) think he does a good job as a TE coach with bad players.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Interesting. But most OCs are on the field these days, right? I feel like shots of coordinators up in the booth were ubiquitous back in the 80s/90s.
Absolutely on the offensive side of the ball. Seems like all of them are on the field with their play sheets on the sidelines calling in plays. Maybe it's because they need to spend more time between series directly with a QB and going over what they're seeing, etc.
Defensively, it seems like you see a lot more of the shots from the booth. Perhaps it helps them see their defensive alignments better, and there's less "coaching" they need to do between series. No idea though.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Caley landing the Jets OC job would feel like a real indictment of some or all of BB, Mac, and/or the Patriots offense as a whole. Or it would be a real indictment of the Jets.
I can't believe he'd be a serious candidate for the Jets OC job.

This feels like a divisional rival bringing in a guy for an interview, to try to gain intel on said rival and how they do things. Bill is famous for doing 8, 9 hour "interviews" with film study when he interviews coaching candidates, and I think he (or maybe it was other coaches around the team) talking about how it's hard to interview in another place, knowing you don't want to give too much information about how things are done in Foxboro but also put your best foot forward, etc.
 
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Absolutely on the offensive side of the ball. Seems like all of them are on the field with their play sheets on the sidelines calling in plays. Maybe it's because they need to spend more time between series directly with a QB and going over what they're seeing, etc.
Defensively, it seems like you see a lot more of the shots from the booth. Perhaps it helps them see their defensive alignments better, and there's less "coaching" they need to do between series. No idea though.
Not Mr. Dorsey:

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2022/09/25/bills-oc-ken-dorsey-pitches-a-fit-at-end-of-loss-to-dolphins/
 

Shelterdog

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The writing is on the wall, it'll be BoB.
Agreed. The most positive thing about this is that it strongly suggests that BoB thinks Jones can be the QB of a pretty good NFL offense--BoB needs to have success here if he wants to get a HC job at a top college or NFL team and I don't think he'd take the job if he didn't think Jones could do the job.

Now lets hope that Jones does the job.
 

tims4wins

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Agreed. The most positive thing about this is that it strongly suggests that BoB thinks Jones can be the QB of a pretty good NFL offense--BoB needs to have success here if he wants to get a HC job at a top college or NFL team and I don't think he'd take the job if he didn't think Jones could do the job.

Now lets hope that Jones does the job.
Well put.

And I made this point previously, but I think BoB's temperament is perfect for Mac
 

FL4WL3SS

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Well put.

And I made this point previously, but I think BoB's temperament is perfect for Mac
Curious how your feelings/opinions have changed re: Belichick since the end of the season. You were a loud proponent the he was the problem and had to go. Reconsidering? I'm not being snarky here, genuinely curious. He's always shown the skill of adaptation, which has made him the best. He's not above making mistakes, it's how he handles them that sets him apart.
 

tims4wins

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Curious how your feelings/opinions have changed re: Belichick since the end of the season. You were a loud proponent the he was the problem and had to go. Reconsidering? I'm not being snarky here, genuinely curious. He's always shown the skill of adaptation, which has made him the best. He's not above making mistakes, it's how he handles them that sets him apart.
I was definitely a loud proponent, and I'm glad to see that he is willing to adapt, yet again. I'll without final comment until we see how all of the coaching changes shake out, but the last week has at least been encouraging.

As I've mentioned before, I've always been on the In Bill We Trust team. The second half of this year was the first time I can ever remember questioning that.
 

DJnVa

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I would assume Caley is almost a courtesy interview. He's in-house, young, and getting some looks elsewhere. If you like him and want him to stay, you have to interview him, even if he's not getting the job. If you're apathetic on him leaving, the interview may help him along.

I don't know much about McCardell as an OC candidate, and I I would assume he's mostly on the list for Rooney Rule reasons, but he could knock their socks off.
 

luckiestman

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Shelterdog

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Maybe it's true for all organizations and I'm just pats centric but the number of folks who had a cup of coffee here and are serious coaches somewhere is amazing. Kingsbury, Kevin O'Connell, Zac Robinson, Adrien Klemm--it's like getting drafted by the Pat gets you an automatic start in coaching.
 

luckiestman

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Maybe it's true for all organizations and I'm just pats centric but the number of folks who had a cup of coffee here and are serious coaches somewhere is amazing. Kingsbury, Kevin O'Connell, Zac Robinson, Adrien Klemm--it's like getting drafted by the Pat gets you an automatic start in coaching.
Belichick might just like drafting nerds
 

thehitcat

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Belichick might just like drafting nerds
I can't find the story at present but there was a period of time when a much higher than average number of college captains were being drafted by the Pats. Don't know if that translates to football nerds but maybe it does.

Edited for clarity
 

Shelterdog

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I can't find the story at present but there was a period of time when the Patriots had an abnormally high number of their draftees be captains for their college teams. Don't know if that translates to football nerds but maybe it does.
I heard that said but I never believed it--I'll bet that a huge percentage of all draftees of every team are captains. College teams often have like 8 times-and other than on georgia and bama how many teams are going to have a draftable player who isn't impressive enough to make their top 8 or so guys?
 

BigJimEd

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Interview Klemm for OC, consider him for OL coach?
Not sure he'd be interested in that position. Left the Steelers to become Associate HC, Run game coordinator at Oregon in addition to OL duties. Possible he just wanted out of Pittsburgh but he may look at that as a downgrade.
 
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Adrian Klemm is interviewing for the position.

Currently an OLine/RGC at Oregon. Spent 3 years with the Steelers as assistant o line coach then o line coach. Also has spent time with SMU and UCLA in offensive/o line type roles.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1615821041351237643?s=20&t=-m-qvq19b5sdIHn9I5KPfQ
I like that they’re casting a wide net. These few extra weeks of offseason may really benefit them in the long run. Even if this ends with BOB, they will have had the opportunity to speak with others with different viewpoints in an in-depth way that may not have been possible otherwise.
 

BigJay

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Is there a reason Caley is thought so highly of? As TE coach, Henry and Smith haven't exactly shined and Keene and Asiasi flamed out.
 

luckiestman

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Is there a reason Caley is thought so highly of? As TE coach, Henry and Smith haven't exactly shined and Keene and Asiasi flamed out.
This is one of those things where its seems like insiders view him highly and outsiders have no information to judge him on.
 

cornwalls@6

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This is one of those things where its seems like insiders view him highly and outsiders have no information to judge him on.
Yeah, seem to recall he is considered a very bright, hardworking young coach. TE hasn’t been a strength, for sure. But just as likely, and maybe more so, a reflection on their evaluation of those guys, and the overall issues with the offense, than anything he’s doing wrong.
 

ehaz

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There’s another (former) Pats TE coach who would be a perfect fit—Shane Waldron.

Coordinator for a very good offense despite (or because of?) swapping Russ for Geno. Broke in under Belichick/Weis in New England, spent 4 years under McVay. Played at Tufts, also coached at UMass.

Probably no way Seattle would let him leave.
 

hube

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Question for those in the know - is this a wide net, Belichick upping the names of friends who deserve the kind of name recognition some more well-known guys get, or a concern that O'Brien won't work out? Something more than that?
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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Just a thought but, considering his close proximity to the Flores lawsuit, Bill is probably right to cast a wide net and give the impression that they’re truly going through this process with little-to-no predisposition. There are writers all over the country ready to skewer him for doing token interviews.