The Patriots 'All-Dynasty' Team

tims4wins

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The solution is to dump Welker, TBH. He was great but the system was perfect for him and he benefitted from Randy Moss on the other side.

One of those guys has no rings. Sucks, but that’s how I’d get Branch on the list.
Wrong. Moss was here more or less 3 years, 2007-2009. In those 3 years Welker caught 346 passes for 3,688 yards and 15 TDs. In 2010-2012, Welker caught 326 passes for 3,771 yards and 22 TDs.

Moss was the best WR they have ever had. But he shouldn't be on this list based on total contributions. Same comment applies to Corey Dillon.
 

rodderick

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Okay, I'll be "that guy." Shouldn't the wide receiver debate really be Branch vs Moss?
It should Branch vs. Troy Brown and Branch wins the spot in my opinion. I love Troy Brown, but if we're taking into account solely his performance as a wide receiver during the dynasty years, he's the odd man out of that group. Welker to me is the best receiver they had during this time period considering a combination of peak, consistency and longevity.
 

E5 Yaz

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The solution is to dump Welker, TBH. He was great but the system was perfect for him and he benefitted from Randy Moss on the other side.

One of those guys has no rings. Sucks, but that’s how I’d get Branch on the list.
The only one with a ring is Branch. Welker's overall numbers are far better with the Patriots than Moss's
 

tims4wins

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It should Branch vs. Troy Brown and Branch wins the spot in my opinion. I love Troy Brown, but if we're taking into account solely his performance as a wide receiver during the dynasty years, he's the odd man out of that group. Welker to me is the best receiver they had during this time period considering a combination of peak, consistency and longevity.
Brown v Branch is really close IMO.

Brown 2001-2006: 83 G, 337 catches, 3,595 yards, 19 TD, 3 rings
Branch, Pats career: 89 G, 328 catches, 4,297 yards, 24 TD, 2 rings
 

E5 Yaz

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Same comment applies to Corey Dillon.
I think some players are on the team to represent the early part of the dynasty, and I have no problem with that. But I'd still take Blount over Dillon
 

tims4wins

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I think some players are on the team to represent the early part of the dynasty, and I have no problem with that. But I'd still take Blount over Dillon
Not sure I agree with the first point - guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, Willie, Seymour, Wilfork, Ty Law... they were inarguably great players. They weren't put on the team just to represent the early part of the dynasty.

Corey had the best single season rushing performance of the dynasty. But it was really his only good year.
 

tims4wins

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Dillon v Blount

Dillon: 43 G, 753 carries for 3,180 yards, 4.2 YPC, 37 TD; 52 catches for 431 yards and 2 TD
Blount: 49 G, 677 carries for 2,917 yards, 4.3 YPC, 34 TD; 19 catches for 137 yards and 1 TD

Dillon had more production than I remembered to be honest.
 

Captaincoop

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Not sure I agree with the first point - guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, Willie, Seymour, Wilfork, Ty Law... they were inarguably great players. They weren't put on the team just to represent the early part of the dynasty.

Corey had the best single season rushing performance of the dynasty. But it was really his only good year.
Phifer though? My memory isn't that great but I recall him more as a solid player and culture guy than an all-whatever team guy.
 

E5 Yaz

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No, because the regular season stats and overall production are so completely tilted in Moss' favor that I wouldn't use postseason as a tie breaker.
So ... when it suits your point ... the postseason is a tiebreaker. When it doesn't, the postseason is a secondary factor.

Everybody loves Randy. I love Randy. But his three full seasons with the Patriots, while they fell within the "dynasty" years, produced zero titles.
 

rodderick

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So ... when it suits your point ... the postseason is a tiebreaker. When it doesn't, the postseason is a secondary factor.

Everybody loves Randy. I love Randy. But his three full seasons with the Patriots, while they fell within the "dynasty" years, produced zero titles.
For it to be a tiebreaker there has to be a tie. I mean, not that hard a concept to grasp. Brown and Branch had similar regular season production, so I'll weigh their postseasons to decide which I'd keep on the team. Moss's regular season production is orders of magnitude more impressive than Branch's, so he's my pick.
 

E5 Yaz

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Phifer though? My memory isn't that great but I recall him more as a solid player and culture guy than an all-whatever team guy.
He was the other "early" guy I was thinking of.

Dillon v Blount

Dillon: 43 G, 753 carries for 3,180 yards, 4.2 YPC, 37 TD; 52 catches for 431 yards and 2 TD
Blount: 49 G, 677 carries for 2,917 yards, 4.3 YPC, 34 TD; 19 catches for 137 yards and 1 TD

Dillon had more production than I remembered to be honest.
Same here. Blount might be recency bias on my part ... plus he's one of my wife's favorites
 

E5 Yaz

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Moss's regular season production is orders of magnitude more impressive than Branch's, so he's my pick.
Although his production meant comparatively little when it comes to the apex of the dynasty
 

Super Nomario

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I think Branch's playoff (Super Bowl especially) performances put him over the top.
Brown had a heck of a lot of playoff moments too. 121 yards and a PR TD in the AFCCG against Pittsburgh to send them to the first SB. 89 yards and the key catch on the final drive against the Rams. Leading receiver in the 2003 AFCCG and 2nd in the SB. In 2004, not the same numbers but he was playing on offense and defense and returns. The forced fumble on Marlon McCree in 2006.
 

E5 Yaz

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Brown had a heck of a lot of playoff moments too. 121 yards and a PR TD in the AFCCG against Pittsburgh to send them to the first SB. 89 yards and the key catch on the final drive against the Rams. Leading receiver in the 2003 AFCCG and 2nd in the SB. In 2004, not the same numbers but he was playing on offense and defense and returns. The forced fumble on Marlon McCree in 2006.
Thank you.
 

rodderick

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Although his production meant comparatively little when it comes to the apex of the dynasty
Is this the "players whose contributions had objectively the most material impact in titles won during the dynasty years" team or the "players who performed the best for the Patriots during their dynasty years" team? If it's the first definition, I'd like to nominate Mo Lewis for a linebacker spot.
 

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To me Brown also gets extra points for being the consummate Patriot, making important plays on all three units in both key regular season and post-season games. Maybe he gets some kind of special "Jack of all trades" designation, but IMO his omission would have been worse than Branch's.

In terms of "moments" his catch on the final drive in SB XXXVI was the key play of maybe the most important drive of the Dynasty, and they are probably not playing in that game without his performance in Pittsburgh (albeit more on Special Teams).

Again, why not just have 5 WRs on the team? I have a hard time omitting Moss, Welker, Edelman, Brown or Branch.
 

E5 Yaz

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Is this the "players whose contributions had objectively the most material impact in titles won during the dynasty years" team or the "players who performed the best for the Patriots during their dynasty years" team? If it's the first definition, I'd like to nominate Mo Lewis for a linebacker spot.
Mo didn't play for the Patriots.
 

E5 Yaz

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Again, why not just have 5 WRs on the team? I have a hard time omitting Moss, Welker, Edelman, Brown or Branch.
I'll go back to my second post in this thread. Paxton and Cardona were valuable in their own way, but does this roster need two long-snappers? Over one of the wide receivers, or David Andrews, or even Ghost?
 

amRadio

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We should nominate someone to put together a roster of our consensus picks. Looks like most folks agree on some things here.
 

Jimbodandy

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To me Brown also gets extra points for being the consummate Patriot, making important plays on all three units in both key regular season and post-season games. Maybe he gets some kind of special "Jack of all trades" designation, but IMO his omission would have been worse than Branch's.

In terms of "moments" his catch on the final drive in SB XXXVI was the key play of maybe the most important drive of the Dynasty, and they are probably not playing in that game without his performance in Pittsburgh (albeit more on Special Teams).

Again, why not just have 5 WRs on the team? I have a hard time omitting Moss, Welker, Edelman, Brown or Branch.
I'd like to bronze this post for posterity.

Brown is my favorite player of the dynasty for willing his way onto the roster, starting at the bottom rung of the ladder as a gunner, then punt/kick returner, then 4th WR 3rd and 4 specialist, then 100/1200 WR1, to defensive back. He impacted games in all three phases of the game and had tons of huge moments.

I can't leave any of those five WR off the list. Those are the five.
 

Ferm Sheller

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I'd like to bronze this post for posterity.

Brown is my favorite player of the dynasty for willing his way onto the roster, starting at the bottom rung of the ladder as a gunner, then punt/kick returner, then 4th WR 3rd and 4 specialist, then 100/1200 WR1, to defensive back. He impacted games in all three phases of the game and had tons of huge moments.

I can't leave any of those five WR off the list. Those are the five.
So, the question is: which of Paxton and Cardona gets dropped in favor of an HM? I honestly would have no idea. Each one is a 3X champ and I don't recall many mis-snaps or blocking eff ups by either one.

EDIT: I'm assuming, of course, that you wouldn't drop someone else.
 

tims4wins

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So, the question is: which of Paxton and Cardona gets dropped in favor of an HM? I honestly would have no idea. Each one is a 3X champ and I don't recall many mis-snaps or blocking eff ups by either one.

EDIT: I'm assuming, of course, that you wouldn't drop someone else.
Paxton did not snap in XXXVIII. He was hurt. They had some veteran come in and I think he got hurt (cut his hand?) but still snapped. Brian Kitchen? So I would drop him.

Edit: Kinchen

 

E5 Yaz

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Paxton did not snap in XXXVIII. He was hurt. They had some veteran come in and I think he got hurt (cut his hand?) but still snapped. Brian Kitchen? So I would drop him.

Edit: Kinchen

Paxton did confetti angels to get camera time. Cardona went to Navy.

Point, Cardona.
 

Ale Xander

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Dillon v Blount

Dillon: 43 G, 753 carries for 3,180 yards, 4.2 YPC, 37 TD; 52 catches for 431 yards and 2 TD
Blount: 49 G, 677 carries for 2,917 yards, 4.3 YPC, 34 TD; 19 catches for 137 yards and 1 TD

Dillon had more production than I remembered to be honest.
Dillon was 3 down back, LGBT was a 2 down back. Point, Dillon.
 

Ale Xander

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Brown had a heck of a lot of playoff moments too. 121 yards and a PR TD in the AFCCG against Pittsburgh to send them to the first SB. 89 yards and the key catch on the final drive against the Rams. Leading receiver in the 2003 AFCCG and 2nd in the SB. In 2004, not the same numbers but he was playing on offense and defense and returns. The forced fumble on Marlon McCree in 2006.
Brown absolutely deserves to be on the team. He's basically the co-MVP of the first ring with Law and AV.
 

tims4wins

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Dillon was 3 down back, LGBT was a 2 down back. Point, Dillon.
Not really. Faulk was the 3rd down back. 52 catches in 43 games isn't exactly Lev Bell here

Edit: Faulk caught 98 passes in 34 games over the 3 Dillon years. He missed half the season in 2005 and Patrick Pass caught another 22 passes.
 

Zososoxfan

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Dillon v Blount

Dillon: 43 G, 753 carries for 3,180 yards, 4.2 YPC, 37 TD; 52 catches for 431 yards and 2 TD
Blount: 49 G, 677 carries for 2,917 yards, 4.3 YPC, 34 TD; 19 catches for 137 yards and 1 TD

Dillon had more production than I remembered to be honest.
Dillon's numbers are eye-popping. I had totally forgotten his ability as a receiver, and at a time when the game didn't highlight the skill.
 

tims4wins

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Dillon's numbers are eye-popping. I had totally forgotten his ability as a receiver, and at a time when the game didn't highlight the skill.
His 2004 season was a tour de force. In 15 games he averaged over 4 YPC in 13 of them. He went over 100 9 times. In the 6 other games his totals were:
98 (on 3.77 YPC)
94 (5.22)
89 (3.07)
88 (4.00)
86 (5.73)
79 (4.16)

He didn't rush for less than 79 yards in a single game.

Here were his 2 WORST games in terms of YPC:
Week 11 vs KC: 26 carries for 98 yards (3.77), 2 TD
Week 16 vs: NYJ: 29 carries for 89 yards (3.07)

Dillon 2004 = Moss 2007, but with a ring

Oh let's throw in playoffs:
23 for 144 (6.26) against Indy (5 catches for 17)
24 for 73 (3.04), 1 TD against Pittsburgh (1 catch for 5)
18 for 75 (4.17), 1 TD against Philly (3 catches for 31)
 

Zososoxfan

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His 2004 season was a tour de force. In 15 games he averaged over 4 YPC in 13 of them. He went over 100 9 times. In the 6 other games his totals were:
98 (on 3.77 YPC)
94 (5.22)
89 (3.07)
88 (4.00)
86 (5.73)
79 (4.16)

He didn't rush for less than 79 yards in a single game.

Here were his 2 WORST games in terms of YPC:
Week 11 vs KC: 26 carries for 98 yards (3.77), 2 TD
Week 16 vs: NYJ: 29 carries for 89 yards (3.07)

Dillon 2004 = Moss 2007, but with a ring

Oh let's throw in playoffs:
23 for 144 (6.26) against Indy (5 catches for 17)
24 for 73 (3.04), 1 TD against Pittsburgh (1 catch for 5)
18 for 75 (4.17), 1 TD against Philly (3 catches for 31)
I remember '04, just because it was the first instance of NFL fans everywhere saying, "Wait, the Pats, who just won a SB got the best/top 5 player at his position for HOW MUCH?!?!?"
 

tims4wins

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I remember '04, just because it was the first instance of NFL fans everywhere saying, "Wait, the Pats, who just won a SB got the best/top 5 player at his position for HOW MUCH?!?!?"
I remember my dad called or texted me and was like... are you sitting down
 

Ferm Sheller

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Paxton did not snap in XXXVIII. He was hurt. They had some veteran come in and I think he got hurt (cut his hand?) but still snapped. Brian Kitchen? So I would drop him.

Edit: Kinchen

Ah, hell of a memory you have. I knew that that was my least favorite of all the SB victories for some reason -- I missed the long-snap stylings of a one Lonie Paxton.

EDIT: But here's the thing...sure they win the SB without Lonie, but do they get there without him?
 

tims4wins

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Ah, hell of a memory you have. I knew that that was my least favorite of all the SB victories for some reason -- I missed the long-snap stylings of a one Lonie Paxton.

EDIT: But here's the thing...sure they win the SB without Lonie, but do they get there without him?
How dare you say it was your least favorite. I WAS THERE!!!
 
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The solution is to dump Welker, TBH. He was great but the system was perfect for him and he benefitted from Randy Moss on the other side.

One of those guys has no rings. Sucks, but that’s how I’d get Branch on the list.
I'm all in on Branch making it, even if just for HM, but he really should be on the list. But dumping Welker is outrageous. That said, you're not alone. There are tons of Patriots fans who either let time dim their memory or just insist on holding one drop (on a pretty tough ball) against Welker. Wes Welker was insanely dependable and productive. He was absolutely a PHOF-level WEAPON on this team, and should be treated as such. I realize this is all just in fun, and YMMV and all that, but I mean, come on.
 

InstaFace

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It wasn't his only moment.
Again, the argument for Gostkowski rests on longevity and accuracy. Reasonable people are free to weight Vinatieri's several legendary moments very highly, but that's why it's an argument.

Gostkowski:
- 14 seasons in NE, 204 games, only 2 seasons missing any games (2010: 8 GP, 2019: 4GP).
- 374 / 428 = 87.4% FG%.
- 25 / 35 from 50+ (71.4%)
- 423 consecutive PATs. Oh, and 25 tackles and a 2009 fumble recovery.

Vinatieri:
- 10 seasons in NE, but only 6 under BB; 160 games, 96 under BB (never missed a game).
- 154 / 185 = 83.2% FG%
- 3 / 10 from 50+ (30%)
- 3 of the most clutch kicks ever made in the NFL, including 2 of only 3 SB-winning kicks ever.
- 100% pass completion and 100% TDs / attempt.

I love Vinatieri's moments as much as the rest of you, but he was less than a third of the dynasty's games played, and 29% of its made field goals.
 

E5 Yaz

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Again, the argument for Gostkowski rests on longevity and accuracy. Reasonable people are free to weight Vinatieri's several legendary moments very highly, but that's why it's an argument.

Gostkowski:
- 14 seasons in NE, 204 games, only 2 seasons missing any games (2010: 8 GP, 2019: 4GP).
- 374 / 428 = 87.4% FG%.
- 25 / 35 from 50+ (71.4%)
- 423 consecutive PATs. Oh, and 25 tackles and a 2009 fumble recovery.

Vinatieri:
- 10 seasons in NE, but only 6 under BB; 160 games, 96 under BB (never missed a game).
- 154 / 185 = 83.2% FG%
- 3 / 10 from 50+ (30%)
- 3 of the most clutch kicks ever made in the NFL, including 2 of only 3 SB-winning kicks ever.
- 100% pass completion and 100% TDs / attempt.

I love Vinatieri's moments as much as the rest of you, but he was less than a third of the dynasty's games played, and 29% of its made field goals.
It's a decent debate. The unknown question is, does this franchise even become a dynasty if he misses the kicks against Oakland, the Rams and Carolina?
 

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Vinitari was one of the main players in the building of the Pats dynasty. He won the game against Oakland and his kicks in super bowls were consistently the difference.

If another kicker is in there, the dynasty might look significantly different. I do think he should be ahead of Ghost.
 

E5 Yaz

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Kyed weighs in with some thoughts about this "team" structure on general:

I would have included Trey Flowers over Ty Warren and one of Jerod Mayo, Jamie Collins or Kyle Van Noy over Roman Phifer.
Also, why were there two kick returners and two long snappers? And why were there 15 players on offense, 18 on defense, nine special teams players and eight honorable mentions. That’s a 42- or 50-man roster.
I just didn’t think it was overly interesting with the way it was constructed. Either make it 11 starters on each side of the ball or a full 53-man roster.
 

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Vinitari was one of the main players in the building of the Pats dynasty. He won the game against Oakland and his kicks in super bowls were consistently the difference.
Half true, half overblown narrative. He was 4/6 on FG in the Super Bowl, which is hardly the model of consistency.

He obviously had a great kick to lock up the Rams SB.

Against the Panthers he was 1/3; the only reason he was kicking for the win at the end of the game is because he'd missed a 31- and a 36-yarder.

And against the Eagles he hit a 22-yarder with 8:46 left in the game and the Patriots up by 7. It wound up being the margin of victory, but it's a chip shot that any kicker should expect to make (and it's not even like it was to tie or win with time running low).