I changed my vote. Brad can’t get these guys ready to play. If the coach can’t at least get effort out of the team, it’s time to go.
The Poll: Is Wyc burning Brad- Should CBS be torched at season's end?
- Thread starter bankshot1
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I honestly don't think coaches are there to "get effort out of the team" in the way that fans and talk show whiners talk about.
This team is broken, but I still don't put that on Brad.
This team is broken, but I still don't put that on Brad.
I think NBA players are professionals, not lazy people who will refuse to do their jobs if they aren't properly motivated by a coach.
The majority of NBA players are immature kids.....many of whom have been handed their meal on a silver platter since they began playing AAU. Now they are 20-something multi-millionaires. Case in point.....Atlanta Hawks before and after their coaching change.
Building systems, developing players, making adjustments are the biggest ones to me. I think Brad has struggled some, but also, I think the amount of times they have come out flat is concerning, but the number of times Brad has answered that with an adjustment and they've come back is a plus. Given that Brad does his best work in builidng systems in practice, this year has been a rough one for him.
I have some concerns about Tatum and Brown often being the ones who come out flat, because you can't really bench them, and I don't think a different coach changes that. The hope is that is just a tired bunch of guys still learning how to be pros.
I think the first shakeup move is going to be moving on from Smart over the coach. Smart has a big role in the lockerroom, and it's not clear he's a big positive anymore. He is as guilty of lazy and bad decisions as anyone this year, sloppy turnovers, flopping on key plays hoping for a foul but instead giving up backbreaking uncontested layups (did it again today).
After that maybe you switch coaches, but usually that doesn't really work, if the problem is your stars not having the right mentality, you end up like the Wolves, cycling coaches and getting the same or worse results because motivation isn't really a coaching thing in the NBA>
Edit- Also I will say one thing that makes me feel better about this year is looking at MIA, LAL and TOR. I think all of those have good (LAL/TOR) or great coaches (MIA) and all have had some similar issues all year, just looking tired, coming out flat, big swings, young guys struggling to adapt to a new year etc.
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I posted something incredibly similar in the game thread.
At this point it’s not a question of if Brad’s a part of the problem but how much of a problem he is. I still think there’s no way he will be or should be fired after this season. He’s banked enough goodwill and this season has been really crazy.
But it’s inexcusable to come out in a “must win” game, that you yourself have equated to a playoff game, and get completely fucking punked. That’s a joke and it ultimately comes back to the coach. I mean, read Brad and Evan Fournier’s postgame comments. Brad definitely deserves a decent portion of the blame.
Tatum and Brown aren’t the leaders of the team and don’t seem to be ready for that mantle yet. I think the Smart heart and soul/leader of the team experience needs to be done with. He’s a scrappy player, plays his heart out and makes a lot of winning plays. He also makes incredibly stupid plays, takes fucking awful shots and is very emotional (to the point he could be considered a headcase honestly). He also doesn’t seem like someone who would easily give up thah leaseeship mantle, so I think it’s best to trade him while his value is high.
My dream would be to somehow acquire Kyle Lowry. He seems like the perfect fit both on the court and off. I think the chances of that happening are incredibly small unfortunately
Reminder: Tatum takes a frigging inhaler because he got frigging Covid-19 and felt the aftereffects of that for month. Maybe that, along with the lack of an off-season and Tatum’s heavy usage throughout the year have something to do with his looking flat?
There have been exactly zero NBA seasons that were anything remotely like this one in the entire history of the league. If dealing with this particular once in a lifetime situation is outside Brad’s coaching skillset, well, I don’t see that as a reason to fire him.
There have been exactly zero NBA seasons that were anything remotely like this one in the entire history of the league. If dealing with this particular once in a lifetime situation is outside Brad’s coaching skillset, well, I don’t see that as a reason to fire him.
If Ainge doesn't jettison Marcus Smart this summer, that would represent a far greater amount of GM malpractice than whatever Danny does with Stevens.
Im kind of confused by your stance. You’re obviously incredibly high on CBS, yet your other posts make it seem like you think head coaches are incredibly fungible and don’t reallly do much
Clarification? I think my point is much MORE relevant 26 years later with the greater AAU influence leading to increased entitlement and the amount of money these players are earning.
I actually agree for the most part of NBA coaches being fungible......until they are not and it’s noticeable that change is needed.
In the mid-1990s, when the money really started getting big (for the time), I think it caused major problems. Lots of flash in the pan guys who couldn't handle their instant success. Nowadays, I think they have adjusted, and for the most part view working on their games as the excellent economic investment that it is. Not everyone, of course, and they are by and large still immature kids, but most have enough maturity to chase the opprtunity in front of them.
I can't find it on line, but Cotton Fitzsimmons made this observation:
"Whats the difference between coaching in college and in the pros?
In college, you are talking to young men.
In the pros, you are talking to corporations"
I agree with all of this.
But people are pissed off. Yeah, Miami and Toronto also have good coaches and underperforming teams, but nobody wants to hear that. And we lost more games to covid than anyone else, but nobody wants to hear that either.
At the end of the day, what people want is to see the team performing at a high level, and they're not. We're underperforming the Vegas line. And most of us watched coaches get whacked for team underperformance ("can't fire the TEAM") for our whole lives. The fact that this is an unusual covid year, with the second youngest team in the league getting no practice time, and the team with the most covid games missed, and one of the teams that has made immensely deep playoff runs with no downtime, and the fact that the other teams meeting even a few (not all) of these criteria are also underperforming...this means nothing. We want HEADZzz.
That’s a whole lot of excuses for not winning a lot of games. What are the excuses for now performing with energy and focus?
You guys gotta stop with the Tatum Covid stuff. He’s had some all-time historical games and on B2B’s since his recovery. You can’t simply point to Covid when he is out there half assing it for entire games after he’s proven that he’s fine.
Haven't followed the season at all, so I have no opinion on that, but I did have COVID. After the initial disease, I would feel healthy and then get a day or so of symptoms every 10 days or so for two months afterwards.
It's a really weird disease and you don't know how it's affecting Tatum. Maybe he's really mailing it. Maybe he really has days where the disease still plays a role..
I can’t speak for Toronto but the only issues that Miami and the Lakers have had this year is injuries to their star player(s) and not underperformance.
The Heat at 6-12 without Butler and 31-19 with him which passes the eye test that he is the glue to that team. The Lakers are 9-15 without LeBron and 29-15 with him despite sprinkling in games that Davis or Schroeder missed with him.
I love that you responded to a long post about why it's a bad idea to follow the clean house playbook in this particular instance--with mocking language about calling for headz--by selecting the worst possible counterpoint and calling for headz.
Seconding @NK. I can’t speak for Tatum, but I can tell you that it took me over 3 months to feel “normal” or “like me” again. I still have days where it’s a struggle to motivate for a workout, and nights where I wake up feeling like my lungs are ’itchy’ or that I’m going to have an asthma attack, even though I have never had asthma. Thankfully, those days are becoming fewer and farther in between, although last night sucked. And ironically (for the purposes of this thread, anyway), one thing that keeps me from getting too anxious during these ‘attacks’ (for lack of a better word) is knowing that J. Tatum is using an inhaler. No joke. Somehow, knowing a primed athlete is in my canoe makes me feel less anxious.
Anyway, let’s give Tatum—and maybe Brad—some room this season. And my aplogies for using this thread as a ‘Dear Diary.’
I’m calling for accountability that’s all and I’m sure Brad is hearing it from Ainge who is hearing it hard from Wyc & Co. This is how billion dollar corporations function. This thread isn’t close to being locked and mocked imo.
Sure, but that's kind of the point... those are really good teams that without their top 10 players crash. The Celtics don't have a Butler or LeBron, the rest of those teams' players are still really good, and they have had a lot of issues (Dragic was a mess, Herro flopped, Trezz, Schroeder, etc.) TOR doesn't have a LeBron/Butler either and they are a disaster. The Celtics have had all the same issues as other teams that went deep in the bubble and have had games missed by top guys, it's just that Tatum isn't a LeBron or Butler yet (also he had COVID which I'm sure is a factor) to provide the type of veteran super-star rock that stabilizes everything. It's not a coaching issue for those teams, and I generally don't think it is for BOS either. At a certain point you need your superstars to be consistent reliable rocks, and no coach makes that happen, it's internal to the player, guys develop into that as they age or they don't.
There's a difference between calling for accountability and randomly firing people during a season with unique and specific circumstances that will never be repeated, a year that was also designated by Wyc to be a "bridge year" when he said that they will be doing everything they can to avoid crossing the tax threshold. Successful billion dollar corporations do take circumstances into account.
Who knows, it may be that Stevens gets fired anyway, especially if the Celtics drop 2 games in the play-in. It's going to be a judgment call either way, one based on more information than we have but still less than perfect information. At the end of the day, we can all agree that Danny & Wyc have to figure out the best approach for this particular team. But I don't think Wyc is going to force a firing because he believes that is how successful organizations work; there is little correlation between firing and success in the business world.
But I will die on the hill that says firing Stevens and running back with the same exact roster (including Smart) is a recipe for disaster.
I don't think Wyc is going to act rashly and fire Stevens, but depending upon how badly things end, how poisonous the current team chemistry is, and how receptive Ainge and Wyc are to Stevens suggestions for change, he could decide to simply resign. I think he would get another NBA job fairly quickly.
Brad signed an extension about 18 months ago that takes him through 2024-25. https://www.enterprisenews.com/story/sports/pro/2020/08/12/brad-stevens-receives-contract-extension-from-celtics/42903495/. He is not getting fired after this season unless there's something going on off-the-floor.
What do contract extensions have to do with a coach being fired? Nate McMillan was famously fired by the Pacers in the same month as his multi-year contract extension. I believe Dwane Casey was fired within a year from his contract extension.
Because owners don't like to eat, I don't know what, $30M-ish (assuming Brad's extension was mid-market at around $8M a year)?
McMillan was fired two weeks after signing a one-year extension.
Casey was fired two years after a three-year extension and in part because he was seeking another extension: https://clutchpoints.com/raptors-news-dwane-casey-sought-contract-extension/
A couple things on this one. As far as I can tell we don’t know the exact length of Brad’s extension, except for one sentence from Ainge, the dollar amount, or how much is guaranteed.
Aside from the lack of information on his contract the Celtics likely wouldn’t pay anything extra at all. All NBA contracts come with an offset clause to where any future earnings of a new contract is deducted from what the former team owes during the length of the former deal. So unless Brad is finished with coaching in the NBA he would earn another contract likely in excess of his current deal.
Yeah money won't matter. If the Celtics fired Brad he'd get a new job almost immediately.
Of course a look around the league would tell you.. a few of the teams that fired their well regarded coaches because "we need a change" and had them immediately hired elsewhere probably regret it:
IND fired McMillan, they're already considering firing his replacement one year later, and McMillan is doing great with the Hawks. The Clippers dumped Doc, cleared out the guys their stars didn't like, and..... still the same because the problem with that team's lockerroom wasn't the role players or the coach.
Of course a look around the league would tell you.. a few of the teams that fired their well regarded coaches because "we need a change" and had them immediately hired elsewhere probably regret it:
IND fired McMillan, they're already considering firing his replacement one year later, and McMillan is doing great with the Hawks. The Clippers dumped Doc, cleared out the guys their stars didn't like, and..... still the same because the problem with that team's lockerroom wasn't the role players or the coach.
When Doc left here, though, we traded him and got a first round pick. The Pacers will likely have an opening as everyone seems to hate Bjorkgren. Celtics could potentially get rid of Brad and get an asset that way.
See this part I don’t necessarily agree with. If you’re an above average head coach you are going to very likely make an immediate impact.....but unless you are an elite guy like Pop and the few just below him, Spo and Doc as examples, there is a shelf life in that job. Every coach not in that top 3% (or whatever pct you feel) eventually needs to move on for the benefit of BOTH parties. Nate is a perfect example of this......and Brad may be another. That doesn’t mean the former team regrets the decision that was best for them at the time.
I’ll go a step further and say if/when Brad moves on he will be successful out of the gate wherever he goes and there will be a (long) thread about how we never should have let him go.
Isn't Doc Rivers a perfect example of a coach who needs to move on after a certain amount of years?
I don't really agree. I mean... was Indy moving on from McMillan at all good for them? The team collapsed under the new coach and now they want to fire him and try again after less than a year.
I get the argument that coaches can get stale, BUT... a lot of times the coach isn't really stale, your team has just plateaued, and the next coach gets the same or worse performance. Most of the instances I can think of where a good coach got fired and the team got better.... it was also accompanied by adding better players. The coach was just used as a shield for the GM to take another shot. Sure sometimes it happens that a team gets stale and the stars push for a new coach, but usually firing the coach isn't really beneficial.
Maybe? Hard to say. To me Doc is more a really good coach with a certain type of team. He's not a rebuilder, he's the guy you bring in to handle a team with high expectation and stars. In LA he got fired mostly because it's hard to say.... "well Kawhi is constantly unhappy no matter what, and PG-13 is a headcase, and the guys who were here before don't like that both those guys want special treatment and to not have to work hard"... so you fire Doc, move your role players, bring in a good but soft touch coach in Lu and hope that coasting all year works.
My issue is with the assumption that the Celtics’ current problems should be blamed on Stevens.
Maybe it is true, but “team playing awful and underachieving” is not automatically on the coach, especially this year.
One thing that would go a long way towards combing me that Stevens really was part of the problem would be if Stevens attempted to bolt for greener pastures in the off-season.
Another would be open (ie, widely known among the media, at least) opposition from the players (or enough of them to matter).
Were the Celtics to outright fire him, I don’t know. It would depend on the reporting that came out afterward.
Maybe it is true, but “team playing awful and underachieving” is not automatically on the coach, especially this year.
One thing that would go a long way towards combing me that Stevens really was part of the problem would be if Stevens attempted to bolt for greener pastures in the off-season.
Another would be open (ie, widely known among the media, at least) opposition from the players (or enough of them to matter).
Were the Celtics to outright fire him, I don’t know. It would depend on the reporting that came out afterward.
Until Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown chime in, this thread is kind of navel gazing at its best. A person may have a very valid or a completely irrational reason for wanting Stevens gone but it really doesn't matter. Tatum and Brown are the only people who have enough insight to answer this question with any degree of accuracy. Obviously, if they decide Stevens is the problem, he will be gone, regardless of his contract status or how he may do on the follow.
Does anyone here have actual insight - not thoughts that occurred to them watching body language or anything - into the status of the relationships between the Celtics two stars and their coach?
Does anyone here have actual insight - not thoughts that occurred to them watching body language or anything - into the status of the relationships between the Celtics two stars and their coach?
If you think this thread is navel gazing at best, why do you continue to be a part of it?
Thanks for reminding us that we all know nothing. It hasn't been established 400 times already.
Doc isn’t going to stay in a rebuilding situation due to his stature today but that’s not to say he wouldn’t be a great option for that team.....there isn’t any reason for him to do that at this stage in his career. He won COY in his first year in the league when the Magic finished at .500 with 5 Undrafted rookie FA in their rotation when some had them challenging the Sixers 9-73 record prior to season.
I'm going to guess no one thinks Brad Stevens is actually in danger of being fired this offseason, either.
Easier yes... not always an improvement though, in fact usually it isn't.
To me a GM like Ainge has a lot of rope, and as such he should give his coach rope. The only reason to even consider firing Brad right now (outside of something like a rift with Tatum) is to cover your own ass. Ainge doesn't really need to cover his ass, his job is pretty secure. He should shake up the roster some. He started with Fournier, now he needs to re-sign him. I think Smart is likely being moved, possibly with TT for a frontcourt presence, and I think they'll see what market Kemba has as well.
My point is that whatever we think doesn't matter. It doesn't matter about Stevens contract extension or the fact that he may go on to win COY and a ring at his next stop. Tatum and/or Brown are the key drivers in how the Celtics run their team going forward. The rest is just academic.
As for your other comment, the reminder is proportionate to the number of lazy, emotional posts made here. We can all do better (me included) if we try.
If this team struggles next year, Stevens will be fired... if not Ainge himself. Neither of them are going anywhere this offseason.
Do you think the Clippers would be better right now with Doc Rivers? I doubt it. Sometimes a change needs to be made, they just don't always pick the right guy (or gal, hopefully soon) for the job. Sometimes you replace Tito with Bobby Valentine, it doesn't necessarily mean Tito didn't need to go.
Let's also note that the Clippers are 45-23 this season, and they were 49-23 last season.
This season, Kawhi has missed 18 games and PG has missed 16 games and Ibaka has missed 29 games. They also traded away Lou Williams mid-season, and lost Harrell in the offseason.
Last year, Kawhi and PG missed 15 and 24 games respectively, so they weren't exactly mainstays in the lineup under Doc, but they certainly haven't played much worse this year under a new coach.
In contrast, Tatum has missed 7 games, and Brown has missed 10 for the C's this year. If they had missed the number of games those guys did, we would be talking about how high our lottery pick was going to be right now.
